Diskussion:Portugiesen

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Negriden?!?!

I find it incredible and unbelievable that you have put Negriden as one of the ethnic groups in the origin of the Portuguese. This is factually wrong, based on old racist stereotypes against the Portuguese (mainly of English origin in the period of colonial competion) and therefore discriminatory! This must be changed. Even if the marginal percentagens of Sub-saharan Dna found in Portugal are on your mind, then you would have to add Negriden to the German people article too, since there are also marginal percentagens of Sub-saharan Dna in Germans! If this continues it is a scandal! en:User:The Ogre 06:18, 29. Feb. 2008 (CET)

If it is a stereotype, it is known in Portugal, too. There were some African slaves, who were settled in several villages after their liberation. During the centuries, they mixed with their neighbours, so it is not apparently anymore. I didn't added originally the Negriden, so I don't know, which are the sources of the editor or if this story was the reason. I will ask him. --J. Patrick Fischer 10:29, 29. Feb. 2008 (CET)

Hello J. Patrick Fischer! I believe we've had dealings before. I am en:User:The Ogre in the English language Wikipedia and at the Commons. Sorry to be writing in English, but my German is barely sufficient to order beer! Or wine or whisky! No stereotype intended!

My friend, I am not saying that there weren't Black Africans in Portuguese territory and I am not denying that some of them mingled. What I am saying is that that was not significative from a populacional point of view (you say "some African slaves..."; well if I think of the African-American military who have mingled in Germany, should I add them to the list of peoples in the ethnic make-up of Germans?!? Of course not!)! Even an old time racial anthtopologist like Carlton Coon, completely outdated from a modern scientific perspective and who defended a racialist view of the world, stated that "On the whole, the absorption of negroes by the Portuguese has had no appreciable effect on the racial position of the country." If you see the article en:Sub-Saharan DNA admixture in Europe you can read "The amount of Sub-Saharan African admixture in Europe today ranges from a few percent in the Iberian Peninsula to almost none around the Baltic." And yes, I do know that there are different estimates for that influence in Portugal, some of then giving numbers around 10% of Sub-Saharan Haplogroup lineages for some regions of Portugal - one should note however that these are conflicting studies and to the present day no proper representative sample of the Portuguese population has been genetically tested. In fact what is apparent in most population genetic studies about Portuguese is the weight of en:Haplogroup R1b (Y-DNA) and en:Haplogroup H (mtDNA) - the main genetic lineages of Western Europe! The sole exception to all of this are small locations know to have received Black Africans namely in the 18th century (for instance in Alcácer do Sal, were you could find the "Pretos do Sado", as the ethnographer Leite de Vasconcelos identified them). Notice that Sub-Saharan DNA is also present in other European countries, such as Germany! Blumtly stating that the Portuguese are, even if partially, a mixture of Iberians, Celts, Goths, Moors and "Negroids" is bordering on racial stereotypes and almost reflects racial nordicist views as can be found in sites that defend Portuguese are mulatos (I believe "white history" says it all...). Giving that information in the way it is done here is almost saying that Portugal is part of the "mixed world" - like Brazil (Notice that there is nothing wrong with that for me! But the fact remains that it isn't, either genetically, ethnically or culturally).

By the way, this article is wrong when it says the Portuguese are the result of Iberians mixing with Celts. There were never any en:Iberians in what is today modern Portuguese territory! Iberians, even if their name is used to designate the whole of the Iberian Peninsula, were the non Indo-European groups living in the eastern an southern parts of Mediteranean Iberia (from Catalonia to Andaluzia, let's say). One does not know the ethno-linguistic identity of the populations in modern Portuguese territory before the arrival of Indo-Europeans, with the exception of the Tartessian influence (and Tartessian was another language isolate altoghether, not related to Iberian) in the en:Conii of the Algarve (afterwards heavely celticized by the en:Celtici of Alentejo). Ate the end of the Second Punic War the ethno-linguistic panorama was more a less what is shown below:

As you can see there were Celts and others in western Iberia, but not the en:Celtiberians! Those were a specific celtic group of the central Iberian plateau.

Also, probably more important than the en:Visigoths were the en:Suebi, who settled in Gallaecia (northern Portugal and Galicia). And as for the Moors... Well, Arab or Berber presences in Iberia were always a minority - most of the Moors were in fact, over the centuries of Islamic presence, native Iberian populations converted to Islam (Iberian here means from the Iberian Peninsula, not Ancient Iberian - this is a language confussion we do not have in modern Iberian Romance languages, as we distinguish "Iberos", the ancient ones, from "Ibéricos", anyone from anywhere and "anywhen" in the peninsula).

The fact is that the Portuguese population is basically of Paleolithic origin!

I wonder what is said in the article about the Jews...

I hope to hear from you. See you soon! en:User:The Ogre 12:07, 29. Feb. 2008 (CET)

Hi! I think, the problem is how to count the influence of Negroids into Portuguese general population. I am not a expert to say, if it is correct to call Negroids one of the main influences in Portuguese genpool. I won't enter it again, until maybe any expert can give further informations. --J. Patrick Fischer 17:42, 29. Feb. 2008 (CET)

Hello again J. Patrick Fischer. I've just managed to decyphre most of this article. And I do find it shamefull! I'm not at my home computer right now so I don't have time to ellaborate. I'll come back soon! Cheers! en:User:The Ogre 19:52, 29. Feb. 2008 (CET)

hallo! inwiefern portugiesen, negroidischen einschlag haben ist bis heute recht unklar. da vor allem in portugal aber auch anderen ländern, wie zb brasilien (auch andere lateinamerikanische staaten) keine direkten nachweisungen, und forschungen betrieben wird. vielmehr wird das volk, (zb das portugiesische sowie auch das "das brasilianische" volk, als ein gemeinsames volk betrachtet, welches sich nicht wirklich von der hautfarbe oder herkunft unterscheidet... ähnlich wie in den usa, jedoch definiert sich ein dunkelhäutiger, oder hellhäutiger nach seiner hautfarbe. anders wie in den usa sprechen fast alle portugiesischsprachigen schwarzen, mit ausnahme afrika (mosambik, welcher meist bilingual oder mehrsprachig sind) portugiesisch als muttersprache. in portugal wird nicht darüber berichtet, gelehrt oder gesprochen oder angegeben, wer negroidische herkunft hat, weil dies zum einen sich über jahrhunderte zieht, und deshalb nciht wirklich nachzuforschen ist, zum anderem, wenn man sich das beispiel her nimmt, dass die araber früher christen waren als die europäer (das ist fakt), darüber wird auch nicht gesprochen, zudem wissen das die betroffenen personen zumeist selbst kaum. in mitteleuropa machen sich auch die wenigsten gedanken und es wird auch vom staat her nicht unterschieden, zb bei leuten wie tim borowski ect. dass diese auch eigentlich ethnisch nicht "deutsch" sind, jedoch durch vermischung, und durch die generation, verschwindet dies.

zur herkunft: es ist ein unterschied, wer negroidische (schwarze) vorfahren hat, und wer ein mischlingskind ist. es wird angenommen, dass nach den einnehmen der damlaigen kolonien, vor allem damals die afrikanischen, dass schon da die ersten "negroidischen" portugiesen entstanden sind. tatsache ist, dass das portugiesische volk aufjedenfall ein mischvolk aus (alt)europäischen sowie afrikanischen ethnien (zu teils aus arabern und berbern vor und nach der reconquista) sind. in einigen alten atlanten, wurde ebenfalls beschrieben dass das port. volk aus negroidischen einschlägen auch besteht, unter anderem auch kelto-iberer, galcier ect. ich denke dass es bei den verwandten gruppen, oder vorfahren der portugiesen durchaus beschrieben oder zumindest angemerkt werden sollte, dass das portugiesische volk auch negroidische vorfahren hat! zb bei den kelto-iberer wäre dies fehl am platz, jedoch was den heutigen portugiesen angeht, zumindest einen großteil davon (der sicher auch schwarze vorfahren hat, egal ob jahrhunderte), wäre das sicher korrekt. ich bin für diese kategorisierung mihály

My friend... if I understood what you said, bearing in mind that I do not speak German, you are delirious and your comments are unaccepted original research using a conceptual frame dating from a century ago, and even then with factual errosr. In no way has what you said replyed to my comments and in no way can it replace the data from the english version of this article I copyed below. If what you say is true, how come the genetic data for Sub-Saharan populations is so low in Portugal, and how come it also occurs in Germany. Should we categorize the German as "Negriden"? Don't make me laugh...! en:User:The Ogre 17:36, 10. Mär. 2008 (CET)

it's not important if you speak german or not, this is the german-speaking area of wikipedia, and i dont't speak englsh with an english native speaker.. you have do speak german or you have do go. Should we categorize the German as "Negriden"? ... who are you .. do you think you can categorize anything ? it's not your job. mihály

Again, no reply is given to the questions I raised. And again it seems preferable to attack me that my comments. Mihály, when I said "should we categorize Germans as Negriden" I was being ironic. What I was saying is that you can not do the same to Portuguese! Regards. en:User:The Ogre 07:46, 11. Mär. 2008 (CET)

I think, if someone has some important informations in a language, which many people can understand, it is ok. Oder auf Deutsch: Wenn jemand wichtige Informationen beitragen kann, ist es schnurz, welche Sprache er spricht, vor allem, wenn die Sprache allgemein verstanden wird. --J. Patrick Fischer 07:43, 11. Mär. 2008 (CET)

Questioning this article's present version

My overall evaluation of this article is very negative. It seem like a text that could have been produced in the late 19th century of early 20th century, with all the racialist worldview then predominant and carrying the tradicional stereotypes, filled with factually wrong assertions, about southern European populations or national groups. To adress J. Patrick Fischer's "excuse" about the article, NO, this is not a question of "how to count" the influence of "Negroids" (in itself a desused "scientific"-racial category!) in the general Portuguese population! If this article means to speak about the populational origins of the Portuguese it can not do so by listing the supposed peoples from whom the Portuguese are descendent. It must explain, according to modern populacional genetic research, the demic historical processes that produced it and that can be accounted for in terms of genetic groups, such as populacional haplogroups, clines or clusters.

Furthermore, I question the innitial statements that the Portuguese are a Mixed People! Which population, may you please tell me, is not?!? Are you trying to say that the Germans are not?!? I do not even want to go there... And all statements occur within contexts and histories of discussion. The way that this article (and forget the Sub-Saharan stuff for a minute) says that the Morrish influence was bigger in Portugal then in any other European country (what's the source for this? And how can you compare whole countries, knowing that regional variation is central in European population genetics?), or that the Jews were a major group in Portuguese ethnogenesis, inscribes this article in a classical diatribe against the Portuguese, somehow trying to say that they are not truly "European" (from a genetic point of view, that is to say, racial point of view, that is to say, civilizational point of view, implying, though no stating, Portuguese inferiority vis a vis "Non-mixed Peoples").

Do understand me please, I do not hold a racialist or racist wordlview of any sort, I'm quite against them in fact. As is modern Science! And I am not trying to wash out the Moorish, Black African or Jewish supposed contributon for the "Portuguese gene pool", somehow trying to make them "more white or European"! I could not care less about the importance of those supposed populations for any gene pool you want! The Portuguese could be all Black, or Moorish or Jew. But the fact is that they aren't! So it is important to understand why someone feels the need to say they are!!! Does the article on the German people starte by saying they are a Mixed People with probable high genetic influence from Central Asian populations? I doubt it. Notice that the genetic variation of German populations, Y chromosse and Mithocondial DNA alike, is bigger than that of the Portuguese (as can be seen in HERE). That according to study by Pereira et al. 2005, sub-Saharan mtDNA L haplogroups were found at rates of 3.83% in Iberians (Portuguese and Spanish), 2.86% in Sardinians, 2.38% in Albanians, 1% in the British/Irish, 0.94% in Sicilians, 0.62% in a German-Danish sample. That Haplogroups E and Haplogroup A has been detected in Portugal (3%), France (2.5%), Germany (2%), Sardinia (1.6%), Austria (0.78%), Italy (0.45%), Spain (0.42%) and Greece (0.27%) (see Cruciani et al. 2004, Flores et al. 2004, Brion et al. 2005, Brion et al. 2004, Rosser et al. 2000, Semino et al. 2004, and DiGiacomo et al. 2003, and also Bosch et al. 2001 High-Resolution Analysis of Human Y-Chromosome Variation Shows a Sharp Discontinuity and Limited Gene Flow between Northwestern Africa and the Iberian Peninsula). en:User:The Ogre 20:47, 1. Mär. 2008 (CET)

English Version

Compare this article with the main text in the English version:

Ancestry

The Portuguese are a southwestern en:European population, predominantly en:Mediterranean and Atlantic European.

The earliest modern humans inhabiting Portugal are believed to have been en:Paleolithic peoples that may have arrived in the en:Iberian Peninsula as early as 35,000-40,000 years ago. Current interpretantion of en:Y-chromosome and en:mtDNA data suggests that modern-day Portuguese largely trace their ancestry to the paleolithic peoples which began arriving to the European continent between the end of the last glaciation around 45,000 years ago.

Northern Iberia is believed to have been a major Ice-age refuge from which Paleolithic humans later colonized Europe. Migrations from what is now Northern Iberia during the Paleolithic and en:Mesolithic, links modern Iberians to the populations of much of en:Western Europe and particularly the en:British Isles and en:Atlantic Europe. Recent books published by geneticists en:Bryan Sykes, en:Stephen Oppenheimer and en:Spencer Wells have argued the large Paleolithic and Mesolithic Iberian influence in the modern day British gene-pool. Indeed, Y-chromosome en:haplogroup en:R1b (of Paleolithic origin) is the most common haplogroup in practically all of the Iberian peninsula and western Europe^[1]. Within the R1b haplogroup there are modal en:haplotypes. One of the best-characterized of these haplotypes is the en:Atlantic Modal Haplotype (AMH). This haplotype reaches the highest frequencies in the Iberian Peninsula and in the British Isles. In Iberia it reaches 33% in Portugal.

The en:Neolithic colonisation of Europe from en:Western Asia and the en:Middle East beginning around 10,000 years ago reached Iberia, as most of the rest of the continent although, according to the en:demic diffusion model, its impact was less than in the eastern half of the European continent.^[2]^[3]

During the 1st millennium BC, in the en:Bronze Age, the first wave of migrations into Iberia of speakers of en:Indo-European languages occurred. These were later (7th]] and 5th]] Centuries BC) followed by others that can be identified as en:Celts.

Eventually urban cultures developed in southern Iberia, such as en:Tartessos, influenced by the en:Phoenician colonization of coastal en:Mediterranean Iberia, with strong competition from the Greek colonization. These two processes defined Iberia's, and Portugal's, cultural landscape - Mediterranean towards the southeast and a Continental in the northwest.

Given the Paleolithic origin (and its cultural developments) and the Indo-European migrations, one can say that the Portuguese en:ethnic origin is mainly a mixture of pre-Roman Pre-Celtic, Proto-Celtic and Celtic peoples, such as the en:Lusitanians of en:Lusitania, the Calaicians or Gallaeci of en:Gallaecia, the en:Celtici and the Cyntes or Conii of the en:Alentejo and the en:Algarve.

The Romans were a major important influence on Portuguese culture, considering the en:Portuguese language itself derives from en:Latin.

Other influences included the Greeks, en:Phoenicians/en:Carthaginians (small semi-permanent commercial coastal establishments in the south), the en:Vandals (en:Silingi and en:Hasdingi) and the Sarmatian en:Alans (both expelled or partially integrated by the Visigoths and Suevi), and the en:Visigoths and en:Suevi (including the Buri), who were integrated into Portuguese society, particularly amongst the aristocracy, along with minor numbers of en:Arabs, Berbers and en:Jews who also settled in what is today Portuguese territory.

For the en:Y-chromosome and en:MtDNA lineages of the Portuguese and other peoples see this map and this one.

The Atlantic

Experts such as en:Barry Cunliffe, en:Bryan Sykes and en:Stephen Oppenheimer have put forward theories, supported by genetic and archaeological studies, pointing to Iberia as the main origin of the people that re-populated en:Atlantic Europe in the post-glacial period, during the Paleolithic and the Neolithic times. They argue that the evidence shows that this prehistoric genetic source remains the predominant one in the region.

The legacy of Muslim rule

There exists a number of studies which focus on the genetic impact of the eight centuries of Muslim rule in the Iberian peninsula (en:al-Andalus) on the genetic make up of the Iberian population. Recent studies agree that there is some genetic relationship between Iberia (mainly far southern regions) and some en:North African Populations as a result of this period of history, Iberia is the only region in Europe with a significant presence of the typically en:North West African Y-chromosome haplotypes E-M81^[4],^[5] and Haplotype Va^[6], although this influence may be the result of ancient demic processes that predate the Islamic presence^[7], and may constitute the result of some common western mediterranean populational background.

Iberia is also the region in Europe with the highest frequency of the female mediated mtDNA haplogroup L of en:Sub-Saharan origin, as a result of Berber colonisation and, particularly on specific locations in the south, modern en:African slavery.^[8],^[9]

Nevertheless, the North African or just African element in modern day Iberians' ancestry is quite trivial when compared to the pre-Islamic ancestral basis .

Historical groups and influences

The ancestry of modern Portuguese has been influenced by the many peoples which have passed on its territory throughout history. These peoples include the Pre-Indo-European peoples of Iberia, Proto-Celts and en:Celts (such as the en:Lusitanians, Calaicians, en:Celtici, en:Cynetes and other en:Pre-Roman Peoples of the Iberian Peninsula, such as other minor local tribes as the en:Bracari, en:Coelerni, en:Equaesi, en:Grovii, en:Interamici, en:Leuni, en:Luanqui, en:Limici, en:Narbasi, en:Nemetati, en:Paesuri, en:Quaquerni, en:Seurbi, en:Tamagani, en:Tapoli, en:Turduli, en:Turduli Veteres, en:Turdulorum Oppida, en:Turodi and en:Zoelae), en:Phoenicians (en:Punics), en:Greeks, en:Carthaginians, Romans, en:Vandals, en:Suebi, en:Visigoths, en:Alans, Buri, en:Byzantines, en:Saqaliba (en:Slavs), en:Berbers and en:Arabs (en:Moors), en:Jews (en:Sephardim or en:Marranos).

Portugal was a recipient of immigration from Portuguese settlers who returned from the former Colonies in Africa (Angola, Mozambique, Guinea Bisseau and Cape Verde), in the seventies. Recently, there has been a large surge in immigration from Eastern Europe, in particular, Russia and the Ukraine.

References

[1]
Summarized Percent Frequencies of R1b, R1a, I1b* (xM26), E3b1 and J2e. In: Oxford Journals. Abgerufen am 25. April 2007.
[2]
Estimating the impact of Prehistoric Admixture of the Genome of Europeans. In: Oxford Juornals. Abgerufen am 25. April 2007.
[3]
Testing the Choice of Hybrid and Parental Populations. In: Oxford Journals. Abgerufen am 25. April 2007.
[4]
Phylogeny and frequency distributions of Hg E and its main subclades. In: The American Journal of Human Genetics. Abgerufen am 25. April 2007.
[5]
Origin, Diffusion, and Differentiation of Y-Chromosome Haplogroups E and J. In: The American Journal of Human Genetics. Abgerufen am 25. April 2007.
[6]
North African Berber and Arab influences in the western Mediterranean revealed by Y-chromosome DNA haplotypes. In: PubMed.org. Abgerufen am 25. April 2007.
[7]
A recent and thorough study about Y-chromosome Lineages from Portugal revealed The mtDNA and Y data indicate that the Berber presence in that region dates prior to the Moorish expansion in 711 AD [...] Our data indicates that male Berbers, unlike sub-Saharan immigrants, constituted a long-lasting and continuous community in the country - Y-chromosome Lineages from Portugal, Madeira and Açores Record Elements of Sephardim and Berber Ancestry
[8]
According to a summary study by Pereira et al. 2005, sub-Saharan mtDNA L haplogroups were found at rates of 0.62% in a German-Danish sample, 1% in the British, 3.83% in Iberians (Portuguese and Spanish), 2.38% in Albanians, 2.86% in Sardinians and 0.94% in Sicilians Sub-Saharan DNA admixture in Europe. In: Wikipedia. Abgerufen am 25. April 2007.
[9]
African female heritage in Iberia: a reassessment of mtDNA lineage distribution in present times. In: PubMed.org. Abgerufen am 25. April 2007.

Huge difference, isn't it? en:User:The Ogre 20:47, 1. Mär. 2008 (CET)

"DNA studies

suggest that all humans today descend from a group of ancestors ... (Africa)." Aus: nationalgeographic.com. Nebenbei bemerkt wäre mir neu, dass auch bei National Geographic schon die Kreationisten säßen. So viel zu meinem möglicherweise als Ulk verstandenen Hinweis auf der Hauptseite. I.Ü. halte ich dies trotz aller vorgeblichen Wissenschaftlichkeit noch für eine deutschsprachige Seite. Freundlichst -- Nepomucki 23:49, 4. Mär. 2008 (CET)

My friend, of course everybody is descendent from people originally in Africa! And I do know the Genographic study - I even participated in it as an object of study! That has nothing to do with the issues being discussed here. And the issues I have raized go well beyond the question of "Negriden"! It doesn't matter if this a German language wikipedia or not, what matter are the intrinsic and substantive questions I have raised. And they haven't been answered. I am re-introducing the Neutralität tag. Thank you. The Ogre 00:40, 5. Mär. 2008 (CET)

Noch einmal, Du gibst vor die Implikationen dieses Artikels verstanden zu haben und versteigst Dich zugleich zu altbekannten Anwürfen ohne Grundlage gegen einen User. Du kannst Dich natürlich an einem Wort aufhängen und "suggest" ... Bei diesem Artikel handelt es sich unzweideutig nicht um einen Genetik-Artikel. "Adress" (sic!, very british) yourself to your fields. Der Neutralitätsbaustein hat auch deshalb hier nichts zu suchen, weil das von Dir inkriminierte Wörtchen nicht mehr steht.
Und Dir, nachfolgender MuitoVelho, lass gesagt sein: Wir brauchen auch hier keine Puppensockeriche. Grüßle -- Nepomucki 15:33, 5. Mär. 2008 (CET)

Nepomucki, your reply borders on uncivility, and it still does not deal with the issues I have raised, that are not at all restricted to genetics. You seem, and I hope I am wrong, to hold a sense of ownership towards this article that is incompatible with the whole policy of wikipedia. The questions I have raised remain, even if nothing is changed in the article, it is still a very poor one at best. And the questions I have raised have thir own value, they are not dependent on the language I speak. An no, MuitoVelho is not a sockpuppet of mine, he is an user I also known from the english wikipedia (see en:User:Velho). I assume good faith - so should you! And I strongly notice that your words have not dealt with a single one of my points. Besides the generality of everyone coming from Africa, you seem more glad in attacking my intervention with ad hominem charges. That is not the way to go. The Ogre 16:24, 5. Mär. 2008 (CET)

Já agora, falas português?

Wann wurde dieser Artikel geschrieben?

Überarbeitungsbedürftiger Abschnitt "Auswanderung"

In dem Artikel wird munter mit Zahlen jongliert. In der gegenwärtigen Version stellen sich aber zwei Probleme:

Die Zahlen sind alle unbelegt.
Es geht aus dem Text nicht hervor, ob jeweils nur die portugiesischen Staatsangehörigen oder auch einheimische Staatsangehörige portugiesescher Abstammung gemeint sind. Das ist vermutlich von Land zu Land anders. Bitte mal klären, andernfalls sind die Zahlen wertlos.

Gruß --SCPS 14:38, 21. Aug. 2008 (CEST)

Ließe sich machen (außer von der Infobox, die Zahlen sind AFAIK vom englischen Artikel kopiert). Ist letztendlich aber sekundär, da Du den Hinweis auf die Ethnie gelöscht hast. Portugiesische Staatsbürger sind schließlich auch in ihrer großen Mehrheit portugiesischstämmig. Genauere Erläuterungen wären trotzdem sicher wünschenswert. Warum hast Du eigentlich die Geschichte der Bevölkerung entfernt? Die ist doch nicht strittig. Quelle könnte ich sogar nachtragen. --JPF ''just another user'' 18:15, 21. Aug. 2008 (CEST)

Ich bin jetzt mal über den Artikel rübergegangen. Ich würde vorschlagen, die Zahlen der Infobox, da unbelegt zu löschen. Die unbelegten Zahlen im Text vielleicht auch, dort würde ich aber die Länder stehen lassen, weil ich diese für richtig halte, was bei den Zahlen nicht sicher ist. --JPF ''just another user'' 20:35, 21. Aug. 2008 (CEST)

Was den Geschichtsabschnitt betrifft: Das Mischvolk-Gerede geht halt nicht. Habs entsprechend überarbeitet. Das Diercke-Länderlexikon ist auch nicht gerade ne optimale Quelle, aber so kann man IMHO den Abschnitt erst mal stehen lassen. Zu den Zahlen: Das sieht jetzt schon besser aus, wobei man halt beim Weltalmanach auch häufig nicht weiß, ob er von Staatsbürgern oder ethnischen Zuordnungen spricht. Wenn Du die Infobox löschen willst, rennst Du bei mir offene Türen ein. Ich hatte das gestern schon überlegt, wollte dann aber doch nicht ganz so brutal vorgehen. ;-) Zu den Ländern im Text, bei denen Du keine Zahlen hast, würde ich vorschlagen, die Listen in Fließtext umzuwandeln und irgendwas zu schreiben im Sinne von Darüber hinaus gibt es relevante protugiesische Bevölkerungsanteile in... – so ne Stichpunktliste sieht nicht wirklich gut aus. --SCPS 11:17, 22. Aug. 2008 (CEST)

Der Geschichtsteil gefällt mir jedenfalls gut. Infobox fliegt jetzt mangels Quellen und Widersprüchlichkeiten zu den belegten Daten raus. ;-) --JPF ''just another user'' 21:53, 22. Aug. 2008 (CEST)

Problematic paragraph

Hello everyone! The article is much better now, in the sense that it does not have all those outdated racialist views. It should get further development, though. I'm writing not only to congratulate you all on those corrections, but also to point out some question I still have regarding a specific paragraph - the one that states:

Der maurische Einfluss war in Portugal stärker als in anderen europäischen Ländern, sie hatten einen großen Anteil an der Blüte von Handwerk und Landwirtschaft im frühen Mittelalter. Nach der Reconquista wurden die Mauren teils vertrieben, zum größten Teil jedoch versklavt. Die Juden, die im Mittelalter einen erheblichen Anteil an der Bevölkerung bildeten, wurden wie die verbliebene muslimische Bevölkerung gezwungen, das Christentum anzunehmen.

I know it present a source (Diercke Länderlexikon, Augsburg 1989, ISBN 3-89350-211-4), even if it is not clear which what exact statement the source backs up. Stil... The question, for me, is more substantive: if I do understand correctely it is stated that "The Moorish influence in Portugal was stronger than in other European countries, they had a large share of the flowering of crafts and agriculture in the early Middle Ages. After the Reconquista the Moors were expelled in part, for the most part, however, enslaved. The Jews in the Middle Ages, a significant proportion of the population represented, were forced to adopt Christianity, as the remaining Muslim population."

This is not correct.

In fact, regarding Moorish influence (and it is not clear if cultural or demic influence is meant...), I would say that Moorish influence was stronger in all the Iberian Peninsula (more in the south than in the north) than in the rest of Europe - not just Portugal. This civilizational influence, mind you, was much larger in southern Spain then in any other part of Iberia (see Granada...), and it was also much wider than just in the flowering of crafts and agriculture (look at science, philosophy and literature!). The Muslim population in Iberia (most of which were Muladi, and not Moors strictu senso - Berber or Arab, that is to say, they were ethnic Iberian Muslims of Hispanic pre-Islamic origin) was never, except in specific regions, the majority of the population, and its proportion always dwindled with the advance of the Reconquista. At the end of the Portuguese part of the Reconquista in 1249, the part of the population that remained Muslim, the so called Mouriscos (subject to discrimination processes, such as livin in ghettos, using specific identification signs, and being under surveilance from the catholic authorities, latter on the Inquisition), were almost entirely a people of romanic language that had converted to Islam in the previous centuries (and many re-converted to Catholicism) - most of them were not slaves, but low paid or indentured servants; they were a rather small and poor population concentred in Lisbon, Setúbal, Évora and the Algarve (see Mário Maestri (2006), Mouriscos em Portugal: triste história, triste historiografia, in Contra Relatos desde el Sur. Apuntes sobre Africa y Medio Oriente, Año II, no. 3. CEA-UNC, CLACSO, Córdoba, Argentina).

Regarding the Jewish population, and again Spain was much more important as a center of Sephardi Judaism, they were an ancient presence in Iberia (going back to Roman times, clearly documented since Visigothic times in 482 - see Jorge Martins (2006), Portugal e os Judeus: Volume I - dos primórdios da nacionalidade à legislação pombalina, Lisboa, Vega). This was always a minority with a "problematic" place in Iberia, namely due to the strong anti-semitic tendencies in Iberian Christianity and societies. The situation of the Jews in Portugal always oscilated between periods of strong tolerance (which did not mean equality, notice) to periods of strong persecution. One does not know the percentage of the Portuguese population that was Jewish at the end of the Middle Ages (14th and 15th centuries), even if it is known not to be small, namely after the expulsion of the Jews from Spain in 1492, and even after the orders of expulsion and mass conversions in Portugal in 1497. The escape of most of the Portuguese Jews from Portugal (to North Africa, the Otoman Empire, the Nederlands, France, England) occured in the following centuries, since the orders of expulson and conversion (that were also directed at the Mouriscos) did not terminate the persecutions (look at the Lisbon Massacre of 1506) and discriminations. In fact, with the creation of the statute of the New Christians (with less social previleges and liberties than the Old Christians, compelled to use distintive elements of identiffication, etc.), which was not only aplied to converts but also to their descendents regardless of genealogical distance (this statute would endure in Portugal until 1772, in the context of the codes of Cleanliness of Blood and of the Portuguese Inquisition, that would last until 1821).

So, you see, the situation was not so simple as the aforementioned paragraph states. All this processes, that I here briefly sumarized, produced the extinction of the Jewish and Mourisco communities in Portugal (with the almost insignificant demographic exception of the Marrano crypto-jewish communities, namely that of Belmonte). The central issue, regarding the origin of the present Portuguese population (which is quite different from speaking of the cultural influences in the Portuguese culture), is that even if the Jewish and Mourisco populations were to have been a significative proportion of the whole of the population, both of them had most of their demic origin in autoctonous Iberian populations (see Antonio Medina Molera (1980), Historia de Andalucía).

So, I believe this paragraph deserves some re-writing. Thank you once again! en:User:The Ogre 78.130.10.73 18:46, 23. Aug. 2008 (CEST)

I already have a unified login, so you can always talk to me in my talk page here. Nevertheless I watch my talk page at the english wiki much closely, so you better write there. See you! The Ogre 19:43, 26. Aug. 2008 (CEST)