Talk:Achillean
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 | On 22 September 2025, it was proposed that this article be moved to Men loving men. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
Create Section Under Existing Page
There is benefit to creating a section for this topic on the page Terminology of homosexuality. Nyxtingale (talk) 05:38, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
Article of interest
People discussing the possible deletion of this article to redirect it to something related to homosexuality as if distinguishing it from mere homosexuality wasn't the whole point of the article (and the term itself).
Sapphism rightfully is still an article just as Lesbianism is. Keeping it as distict does make sense. Xandru4 (talk) 14:16, 6 March 2025 (UTC)
The term 'Achillean' is not present in RS
RS use men loving men and variations much more than 'Achillean'. For example, I have not been able to find a single NYT article using the term in reference to MLM (such as on this Google search), whereas MLM is present (e.g. here). I understand the desire for a parallel term to 'sapphic', but it simply doesn't exist with a reasonable notability. I propose moving this article to 'Men loving men' or something along those lines. NyanarWelden (talk) 21:24, 22 September 2025 (UTC)
- Google Ngram is also potentially helpful here: https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=achillean%2Cmen+loving+men&year_start=1800&year_end=2022&corpus=en&smoothing=3 NyanarWelden (talk) 21:29, 22 September 2025 (UTC)
- Also to note: the only references to this term on the article are a Tumblr post, and a PinkNews article about that Tumblr post. This does not seem to meet the threshold of notability by a long stretch. NyanarWelden (talk) 21:31, 22 September 2025 (UTC)
Requested move 22 September 2025
- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: not moved. Discussion on notability and redirects should be brought to the proper venues(i.e. AfD, RfD). The proposed title as a separate article may be discussed at such venues. Still, consensus shows that the article should not be moved due to the scope of the proposed title does not fit the current scope of the article. (closed by non-admin page mover) veko. (user | talk | contribs) he/him 15:08, 8 October 2025 (UTC)
Achillean → Men loving men – Refer to my previous comment. NyanarWelden (talk) 21:33, 22 September 2025 (UTC) — Relisting. ASUKITE 14:56, 1 October 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose per the actual scope and content of the article. It covers the usage and history of this specific term. The article includes the Achillean pride flag but not other MLM or gay men's flags. However, I agree this subject is probably not notable and WP:AFD would be appropriate to discuss whether this article should be deleted. The page history reveals a lot of back and forth between an article on the current subject and a redirect to Achilles. A 2023 RfD determined this should be a soft redirect to Wikt:Achillean but this was subsequently turned back into an article on the current subject. An article with this title was deleted in 2005 but I have no idea what that article was about, since the term for the current subject was apparently coined in 2016. Further discussion about whether to merge any content from this article into a new article on Men loving men or some other article can occur at AfD. --MYCETEAE 🍄🟫—talk 20:28, 23 September 2025 (UTC)
- Could you open a RfD to kickstart this discussion? Thank you! In principle, I would agree that deleting the article and then considering a new one for MLM makes more sense. NyanarWelden (talk) 20:23, 25 September 2025 (UTC)
- Let's see how this plays out. If this doesn't get moved to Men loving men, then there is no barrier to creating a new article at that title, regardless of what happens with this content. And if someone does propose a better merge target then there's no need to take this to AfD. --MYCETEAE 🍄🟫—talk 22:45, 25 September 2025 (UTC)
- Could you open a RfD to kickstart this discussion? Thank you! In principle, I would agree that deleting the article and then considering a new one for MLM makes more sense. NyanarWelden (talk) 20:23, 25 September 2025 (UTC)
- Merge to Uranian (sexuality), the article seems to say that the two terms overlap, but that Uranian is the more used one. Ngrams bears this out. Therefore, there is a significant WP:OVERLAP and an alternate article is not merited. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 05:00, 24 September 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose merge to Uranian (sexuality). The Google Books search tied to the Ngram mostly shows that both terms are often used in contexts unrelated to the subjects of Achillean and Uranian (sexuality), although I agree that Uranian appears to have more support based on a cursory scan of the results. Both articles cover the usage of the specific terms. It's possible Achillean could be included in a 'related terminology' section somewhere, but it's not clear where. "Men loving men" and "Achillean" are both used to describe something distinct from gay man, though there is of course significant overlap. It's similar to the way men who have sex with men is a distinct concept. --MYCETEAE 🍄🟫—talk 17:10, 24 September 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose merge too, Uranian seems to be a historical term and Achillean is a completely unrelated (and seemingly very niche) Internet slang term. NyanarWelden (talk) 20:24, 25 September 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose merge to Uranian (sexuality). The Google Books search tied to the Ngram mostly shows that both terms are often used in contexts unrelated to the subjects of Achillean and Uranian (sexuality), although I agree that Uranian appears to have more support based on a cursory scan of the results. Both articles cover the usage of the specific terms. It's possible Achillean could be included in a 'related terminology' section somewhere, but it's not clear where. "Men loving men" and "Achillean" are both used to describe something distinct from gay man, though there is of course significant overlap. It's similar to the way men who have sex with men is a distinct concept. --MYCETEAE 🍄🟫—talk 17:10, 24 September 2025 (UTC)
- Note: WikiProject Men's Issues, WikiProject LGBTQ+ studies, and WikiProject Sexology and sexuality have been notified of this discussion. ASUKITE 14:57, 1 October 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose per Myceteae - the coverage is of the term, changing the title here would change the scope, and the proposed title is a much broader and more ambiguous scope. A merge could perhaps be an option, but it seems the one proposed above has not been favored.ASUKITE 15:18, 1 October 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose per Myceteae. The scope of the article is narrowly defined here. It should probably be merged into another article on various different sexual orientation labels (I found this source in a quick search), but it would not be appropriate to move the article title. Katzrockso (talk) 00:21, 8 October 2025 (UTC)