Talk:Actor model

Section titles should accurately reflect subject matter. So I have changed the title to reflect the content below.50.131.244.2 (talk) 02:21, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Although Carl Hewitt was apparently banned from Wikipedia, to me the overall article *still* reads like the typical "Actor model is above everything" propoganda he spams everywhere he appears (see e.g. his self-post at Lambda the Ultimate: http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4140 and the subsequent discussions.)

Hewitt published an account of his Wikipedia misadventures in Corruption of Wikipedia. 171.65.249.4 (talk) 20:38, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

E.g. most of the sub-sections of "Message-passing semantics" contain almost no reasonable references and are just some rephrasings of statements made by Carl Hewitt, not some things proven / stated by other academics.

I'd much rather see NOTHING on this page than have a lot of statements which are highly dubious and just confuse me.

I also fail to understand how can self-published things by Carl Hewitt can be considered valid references? Has anyone even looked at those papers (i.e. papers "published" by Carl Hewitt after the 2000)? They are mostly total rubbish. E.g. some claim to disprove central theorems of mathemathical logic, which is beyond ridiculous.

--humble_reader 146.50.236.226 (talk) 22:05, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia is famous for anonymous ad hominem attacks on academic experts. A hallmark of such attacks is a complete lack of fact or subject argumentation. 12.199.206.2 (talk) 23:15, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

First, I don't understand why you are changing titles of posts made by others.

Second, sorry for using strongs words, but this is not an ad-hominem attack on Carl Hewitt. This is about the standard scientific process and the usual guidelines by which Wikipedia is being run, e.g. preventing things like citing self-publications. (WP:V#SELF). --humble_reader 77.172.242.47 (talk) 21:58, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

The section title has been changed in order to accurately reflect its content.

The standard scientific process is for critics to publish criticism of other scientists under their own name instead of hiding behind anonymity. At the Lambda the Ultimate Forum that you complained about, you are required to use your real name :-)

If you had read Professor Hewitt's homepage, you would know that he has published numerous refereed articles since 2000. There are videos on Hewitt's homepage that can help you understand the Actor Model.

PS. How is it being a student at Universiteit van Amsterdam?50.131.244.2 (talk) 02:21, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Looking at Hewitt's publications after 2000 on DBLP, I see one peer-reviewed academic paper in COIN from 2007, in which, funnily, Hewitt cites his other unpeer-review or even unpublished papers (like the 'Hewitt 2007c').

Also, right, so now we are turning this into a discussion about Carl Hewitt, which is not my concern at all. I'll leave the title as is, because presumably you will just keep reverting it anyway. --humble_reader 77.172.242.47 (talk) 11:12, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

DBLP is not very up to date :-( The important thing is to learn as much as you can. Unfortunately, it is becoming increasingly difficult to improve articles because of Wikipedia Administrator censorship. So your best bet is to read the articles in the bibliography. 50.131.244.2 (talk) 03:09, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

I have changed the title to something neutral. I will look at the references in a little while, and remove any that are unpublished.

One immediate question is: what is the full publication information for "Proceedings of inconsistency robustness", including the publisher? Strangely, a Google search does not turn up any information, and "robust11.org" is simply an online PDF. — Carl (CBM · talk) 10:27, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

The "strangely" is not so strange, when you notice the fact that it is an "institution" setup by Carl Hewitt through which he publishes his own material. I don't know how to state this without sounding sarcastic. Humble reader (talk) 10:38, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

iRobust is a *very* prestigious academic society (see the Board of Directors at the website).64.134.237.164 (talk) 04:17, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

CBM, I see you edited the article by replacing some of the references with the "What is Computation?" article^[1].

I think it can't be used as a reference for anything but philosophical arguments on what the actor model "is". (And yet even those being pretty bad ones). If you look at the discussion of the article at Lambda-the-Ultimate (which I already mentioned above), you can see how other academics are politely trying to point out the flaws of Hewitt's "formal" arguments. Moreover, the whole section on "Relationship to mathematical logic" is already flagged as needing verification, and the linked article in it -- Indeterminacy_in_concurrent_computation -- is also suggested for deletion in the Talk page of it.

If you were brave enough, you could go to Lambda the Ultimate and participate in the discussion ;-) 64.134.237.164 (talk) 04:17, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

The reason we have this whole mess simply because it is part of big self-reference cycle of Hewitt's productions. If you don't believe me, just check the facts yourselves. Initially after reading these few articles on Actor Model and it's relationship with other fields, for a while I myself believed that Hewitt found some interesting and even fundamentall relationships between Turing Completeness and etc. However, something did not feel quite right, and after taking a more careful look at this I realised that the reason his results "clash" with the rest of the theory is because none of them are formal mathematical arguments. Moreover, I have not found *any* confirmations of this in academic literature (apart from the one published by Hewitt, of course).

It will be interesting to see how your amateur opinion plays out. There will be serious discussions at Inconsistency Robustness 2014 next summer at Stanford. 64.134.237.164 (talk) 04:17, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Finally, the "What is Computation?" article^[1] is a philosophical essay -- not some kind of a mathematical paper which can be used to argue about some fundamental relationship to / implications about mathematical logic. It's mathematical logic, right?

Probably the most interesting (and controversial) article is Mathematics self-proves its own consistency. Undoubtedly, it will intensively discussed at Inconsistency Robustness 2014. 64.134.237.164 (talk) 04:40, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

<irony>Sure, the article seems to provoke contraversially humurous responses, so I bet there will be lots of discussion on how to explore the field of Troll Mathematical Logic.</irony> --Humble reader (talk) 07:27, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Mocking academic experts won't get you anywhere. Of course, they are divided into differing camps. You need to understand the issues being discussed. 171.65.249.4 (talk) 20:38, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

I would go on and just start proposing things for deletion / edit out things myself, but I feel it will be taken as some kind of an unexplained "attack", that's why I'm taking the time to point out the flawed referencing and backing up of arguments and etc. -- Humble reader (talk) 21:08, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Since I started on the "academics trying to confront Carl Hewitt's statements" theme, follow along this conversation in the Foundations of Mathematics mailing list (the FOM list is a professional academic list, read it here), where again Carl Hewitt is being subtly asked to provide any reasonable evidence about his claims, at which point the conversation dies. Obviously the normal academic ethics is not to "out" someone as being wrong, but either to ask them to provide proof or just ignore flawed claims. Luckily here we don't have to be so ethical and can actually remove the flawed claims rather than ignoring them. -- Humble reader (talk) 21:27, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the FOM list is censored. Many conversations are cut off mid-stream and continued via other forums such as Google+. 64.134.237.164 (talk) 04:24, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

<irony>Ah, indeed, FOM is censored just like Wikipedia is, right? Also, thanks, indeed the intelligent monologues of Carl Hewitt on G+ display his irrefutably correct arguments and the support from them academic society on them!</irony> -- Humble reader (talk) 07:27, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Evidently you were unaware that FOM is censored. (Some prominent researchers working in the Foundations of Mathematics are unhappy about the censorship.) Academics are very busy people. They document their positions and move on. 171.65.249.4 (talk) 20:38, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

I made a relatively minimal edit . (1) I removed the robust11.org reference, which has no publication info apart from appearing on a website for which the WHOIS information is very relevant. (2) I removed a reference to a "Middle History" paper which, according to its Arxiv page, was submitted in 2009 but has no publication info, and I was unable to find publication info anywhere else. (3) I combined two references to the "A Computable Universe" paper, so that they share the same reference details, but I removed a link from it to a webpage. This reference does appear to be published by World Scientific. The remaining reference info for it is still sufficient to verify printed the reference.

As something of a logician, you may not be aware that the action in Computer Science is in the refereed conferences (i.g. Inconsistency Robustness 2011). Also, arXiv is becoming an increasingly important publisher. Other areas of Wikipedia have recognized this reality. Why not here? 171.65.249.4 (talk) 20:38, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

In particular, these edits are based solely on the lack of publication info, and if such info was available I would reinstate the references. I invite you to continue editing the article, if you are knowledgeable, to make sure that the remaining references are accurate in terms of the content of the referenced article, which I have not had the opportunity to verify myself at this point. — Carl (CBM · talk) 21:44, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

You have removed the most important and fundamental reference in the article:

^[2]

Is it wise to cripple the article, just because there is a Wikipedia vendetta against Hewitt?

171.65.253.243 (talk) 20:16, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Please provide the complete publication information - including the publisher, place of publication, pages, doi, etc. - for the reference. A review of the WHOIS information shows that robust11.org is a website registered to an individual, rather than to any professional society or publisher. I want to emphasize that the issue is that the paper has no publication information apart from the arXiv and a link to a conference website registered to an individual. — Carl (CBM · talk) 20:55, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Due to continuing violations of Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Carl Hewitt, I have semiprotected the article for six months. — Carl (CBM · talk) 22:56, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

I believe the semi-protection should be lifted immediately because the ruling specifically says periods up to 1 month if needed, not 3 months or 6 months or 100,000 months. Maghnus (talk) 00:39, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

It is true, but given the long pattern of violations, there is no reason to burden ourselves re-protecting articles every one month. The general pattern is that a longer protection seems to calm things down. Since you have requested unprotection, and the other affected articles have been quiet lately, I have unprotected the article. However, if the problem returns, I will re-protect it for several months. (It is worth emphasizing that this is semi-protection, not full protection.) — Carl (CBM · talk) 00:46, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

It is also worth noting that WP:PROTECT allows for protections such as this, independent of the arbitration case. Cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive74#Note_on_protections_of_computability-related_articles — Carl (CBM · talk) 00:49, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Ahh, I hadn't read the more general policy on protection, so it looked to me like sort of creeping overreach/severity. Considering how long this has been going on (baffling), I guess it won't be long before the little lock is back, but thanks for being pragmatic and giving it a shot anyway. Maghnus (talk) 01:49, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

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Please update the release date for the Actor Framework project to 11/13/2013. IE, in the source, look for this section:

| Actor Framework | style="background:#9EFF9E;color:black;vertical-align:middle;text-align:center;" class="table-yes"|Active | 2013-09-02 | Apache 2.0 | .NET

Replace the date with 2013-11-13. Source: me, as I am the dev on that project. You can verify this by looking at http://actorfx.codeplex.com and looking at the date on the right. Thanks, Brian Grunkemeyer (briangru@microsoft.com) BrianGrunkemeyer (talk) 00:22, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Done, Mdd (talk) 00:59, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Please add one more item to Actor libraries and frameworks list:

| SObjectizer | style="background:#9EFF9E;color:black;vertical-align:middle;text-align:center;" class="table-yes"|Active | 2013-11-14 | New BSD | C++

Ngrodzitski (talk) 09:41, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Done Thanks, Celestra (talk) 02:02, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

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Please update SObjectizer item info in the list of Actor libraries and frameworks:

| SObjectizer | style="background:#9EFF9E;color:black;vertical-align:middle;text-align:center;" class="table-yes"|Active | 2013-12-16 | New BSD | C++

Ngrodzitski (talk) 18:46, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Done, thanks! --ElHef (Meep?) 23:54, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

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Please update SObjectizer item info in the list of Actor libraries and frameworks:

| SObjectizer | style="background:#9EFF9E;color:black;vertical-align:middle;text-align:center;" class="table-yes"|Active | 2014-01-04 | New BSD | C++

Ngrodzitski (talk) 13:51, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Done. --Anon126 (talk - contribs) 00:49, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

How long after the last release will a project qualify as inactive? 2 years of inactivity looks like a lot to me. --K0zka (talk) 14:35, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Does Erlang use Actor? Talk:Erlang_(programming_language)#History_accourding_to_J.C3.B6rg_Mittag

Comments invited. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:00, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

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Please add the following reference to the article:

Carl Hewitt "Actor Model of Computation" in Inconsistency Robustness Studies in Logic. Vol. 52. College Publications. 2015, ISBN 978-1848901599

Not done: According to the page's protection level and your user rights, you should be able to edit the page yourself. If you seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. -- Sam Sailor ^Talk! 09:31, 3 September 2015 (UTC)hat

It looks like some censor removed the reference when it was added to the article.50.247.81.99 (talk) 17:58, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Not done: Pinging Arthur Rubin, CBM and SlimVirgin who seem to know more about this situation. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 18:13, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Frankly, it would be very good to have some fresh eyes on this page, and on the articles Carl Hewitt and Gödel's incompleteness theorems. The general background is quite long. A summary by The Guardian is here. After the arbitration case, a large number of IP accounts have been used to make the same sorts of edits that were banned by the arbitration remedies. Recently, IP accounts have been used to insert or recommend citations to Hewitt's current research, sometimes by adding it as a reference for a claim that has long been in an article, e.g. .

There is nothing wrong with references to reliable published work, of course, if they are added by non-banned editors in a way that follows general Wikipedia principles. I would encourage other editors to research the book Inconsistency Robustness when it becomes available (it is on Amazon, but not yet available in any library indexed by WorldCat), and to add it to the article as appropriate. — Carl (CBM · talk) 19:24, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

The book is Vol. 52 in the very prestigious Studies in Logic series under Dov Gabbay. Professor Hewitt's article in the book has the latest and most accurate information on the Actor Model.192.81.129.38 (talk) 04:33, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps it is the latest and most accurate information (although "most accurate" is a strange turn of phrase when referring to theoretical computability). In that case, some other editor will add it. In the meantime, Carl Hewitt is banned from editing Wikipedia; that extends to the entire project, including talk pages. Please do not place any more edit requests on this page. They will be removed without further comment. — Carl (CBM · talk) 10:47, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Not done: According to the page's protection level you should be able to edit the page yourself. If you seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. Edgars2007 (talk/contribs) 10:45, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

I don't see a basis for this in the project, with which I was already familiar. Have an outstanding query in the IRC channel supporting it (cloud haskell, CH) and will remove that row shortly, barring discovery/direction to the relevance. Everything with message passing or communicating objects isn't necessarily an Actor system. 108.183.102.223 (talk) 11:24, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

So the feedback from one of the principal developers is that CH does what Erlang does and is therefore an Actor implementation. 108.183.102.223 (talk) 18:42, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

Said principal developer here. Just a quick follow-up with some more details and references. What exactly is an implementation of the actor model is an interesting question, and I'm not going to make any strong claim that Erlang is such an implementation. However, if we agree that Erlang is such an implementation then it follows that Cloud Haskell is too because it implements the same primitives with the same semantics. This is exactly the same claim that the two citations for Scala make. They reference Hewitt and Agha but only actually claim to implement the Erlang primitives. This is the basis on which the page currently justifies calling Scala a whole actor programming language (even though it's just a library in scala). Exactly the same justification can be made for Haskell as a whole, and certainly for the Cloud Haskell library. For references/citations, use "Towards Haskell in the Cloud" the paper and perhaps Jeff's thesis (links and citation info available). There is also a document which gives the formal semantics of Cloud Haskell, based on a previously published formal semantics of Erlang. So there's clear evidence here. --82.5.178.99 (talk) 18:46, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

So the criteria for being an implementation of the Actor model is at issue, I think. Leaving open for further comment. 108.183.102.223 (talk) 18:54, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

There is a discussion of the relationship of Erlang to the Actor Model in the following article: "Actor Model of computation: Scalable robust information systems. " in "Inconsistency Robustness". Carl Hewitt and John Woods assisted by Jane Spur editors. Vol. 52 of Studies in Logic. College Publications. ISBN-10: ISBN 1848901593. 2015.

Carl (talk) 13:43, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

The most authoritative published article on the Actor Model is the following: "Actor Model of computation: Scalable robust information systems. " in "Inconsistency Robustness". Carl Hewitt and John Woods assisted by Jane Spur editors. Vol. 52 of Studies in Logic. College Publications. ISBN-10: ISBN 1848901593. 2015.

Carl (talk) 13:36, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

Authoritative is a disputed opinion; unless the "Inconsistency Robustness" board is also the recognized experts on the Actor Model (well, it's you, so it may be the case, but because it's you, it's not reliable, even if authoritative). — Arthur Rubin (talk) 03:42, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

Authoritativeness of the article comes from the program committees of the Inconsistency Robustness symposia, the editors of Studies in Logic at College Publications, and the review by Professor Meyers as well as the author. Carl (talk) 14:09, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

Also, the items currently linked in the Articles part of the External Links section are extremely obsolete. Carl (talk) 03:12, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

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This article is significantly obsolete and inaccurate.

More accurate information can be found here:

• Actor Model of Computation for Scalable Robust Information Systems: One computer is no computer in IoT
• ActorScript™ extension of C#®, Java®, Objective C®, JavaScript®, and SystemVerilog using iAdaptive™ concurrency for antiCloud™ privacy and security: One computer is no computer in IoT

Specifically, the following deficiencies and inaccuracies in the article need to be fixed:

• Lacking discussion of the crucial role played by strong types in the Actor Model
• Lacking discussion of the relationship of capability systems to the Actor Model
• Lacking discussion of the crucial role played by timeout request policies in the Actor Model
• Lacking discussion of commercially important applications including Orleans and Akka
• Lacking discussion of the crucial role of ActorScript (including meta interpreter) in defining the Actor Model
• Lacking discussion of the crucial role played by interfaces in the Actor Model
• Lacking discussion of the crucial role played by "Swiss cheese" in the Actor Model
• Under 'Addressed Issues' the reference to Hewitt [2006] does not seem correct — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dbrookman (talk • contribs) 18:13, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

Carl (talk) 01:24, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

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I think the language Go fits in the list of languages implementing this model. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.249.102.209 (talk) 22:30, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

This other page hasn't been updated or properly sourced in 15 years. Please, consider merging these. 2025 is a year of decisive action. Bearian (talk) 06:36, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

I've redirected it rather than merging; entirely unreferenced, with no references added despite tagging since 2009. Klbrain (talk) 11:15, 1 February 2025 (UTC)