Talk:Animism

Just checking up on this page (I think I may have done a little editing a while back) and wanted to comment to whom it may concern that it's looking great!

Love the Quinn reference, too — it helps to actually consult an example of a perspective when actually trying to describe the phenomenon of that perspective to others (instead of only presenting scholarly outsiders views of what something is, a sadly common practice here on Wikipedia in my experience. It would be fantastic, for example, if somewhere in that leading paragraphs of the animism article there were a quote or two from an actual indigenous person describing how they experience the world as a spiritual place (or as Quinn translated it, a divine and sacred place).

Now if we could only get away with touching up the antifeminism and men's rights pages... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.11.81.104 (talk) 18:10, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

I found the phrase 'All Native American religions are fundamentally animistic' a little unencyclopedic. This may or may not be true, but such a blunt fact could do with even a little more info. To what extent? Any examples? And how do they differ?

My Native American ancestors believed in 'The Great Spirit'. They were (are) spiritualists, not animists. They see some animals as being more or less on an equivalent spiritual journey as are we humans, but whereas they might revere some animals, they do not worship them as gods. Consider a Raven, a highly intelligent bird. It will alert predators as to your whereabouts, when you happen into it's territory, in the interest of picking your bones when the predators are done with you. However, if you feed it a time or two, and become part of it's surroundings, it will then change tactics and show you where prey (moose) can be found. It will also sound alarms when wolves, bears, approach. I do not need to cite these abilities for myself, as I have lived with Ravens for many years. I'm sure there are many who can concur. With that in mind, my 'people' , more or less, consider animals as a form of person with a spirit, not a spirit in the form of an animal. There is absolutely no mystical/metaphysical mumbo jumbo in the relationship. Hollywood/ Bush Hippies/ Empowerment Marketing Experts try to romanticize such factors into play, but none of that has anything to do with the evolved relationship we have with the Raven. They are just really smart flying eaters of road-kill and scraps. swampfoot (talk) 02:22, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Considering the wide variaty of native american religions and cultures, I find it hard to beleive there are'nt any answers to these questions. I'd also add that in my research I've found evidence of shamanistic and polythesic fundamentals in many Native American religions, which again makes the current statment fustratingly short. If anyone could add anything to this it would be greatly appreciated. Elcaballooscuro (talk) 20:53, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

This article seems only to convey the colonial perspective of Tylor, Frazer, et al. Today, the religions of indigenous people and forest dwelling peoples are widely acknowledged as such, and their traditions are not considered 'primitive' or lower on a long-rubbished scale of cultural evolution. The article should be made to reflect this point. 217.171.129.79 (talk) 10:43, 17 July 2008 (UTC) R.E.D.

I edited the Africa section because it simply does not reflect the complexity of what is being referred to as "Animism" in African traditional beliefs. I would strongly suggest that those who wish to understand this debate begin with Evans-Pritchard's Nuer Religion and Godfrey Lienhardt's Divinity and Experience, both over 60 years old at this point. No leading scholar of Africanist Anthropology has used the terms "animist" in any significant way since then, and the debate that has followed as to how to best capture the conceptualizations of spirits has been very rich. The science is way too decided here to let this stand as is. I do realize that disciplinary traditions and definitions may be playing a role here, but I really think Anthropology has enough evidence that should alter how scholars of Religion and related fields deal with subject by now. Drewalanwalker (talk) 19:11, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Are you saying but it is now considered that African tribes people were not animists? Am I reading you correctly here?

To my mind "animalism" is more of a kind of instinctual thing — just the word for the innate "spiritual" and metaphysical views of humans — so by definition every tribe is animist, only civilizations seem to depart from these putatively inherent views of the world found so commonly among so-called "primitive" humans.

But that's just my private definition.

In fact taking myself a bit more seriously I would even say that all humans are animists. And modern religions from our civilization or ancient religions from others such as the Aztec, the Maya, or whoever, are also inherently animist. That all human spiritual sentiments are inherently animist. But of course there's various expressions: sometimes it shows up as Christianity, sometimes as Buddhism, sometimes as Paganism, sometimes Witchcraft, sometimes magic and Occult, sometimes Astrology — but clearly all emerging from base human instinct otherwise they would be impossible. 73.11.81.104 (talk) 18:22, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Uhhhhhh! "Animism", not "animalism". 73.11.81.104 (talk) 18:23, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

I changed Karen Armstrong's title from "freelance author Karen Armstrong" to "feminist author Karen Armstrong" - now, that isn't totally accurate, either, but she is NOT a "freelance author," by any means. She calls herself a "freelance monotheist" which is something completely different. Perhaps she should just be listed as "author" and leave off the adjective altogether?

71.110.1.32 (talk) 16:32, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

You have not explained why she is not a freelance author. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:38, 22 February 2008 (UTC)"

She is feminist and Theist ? I feel such two factors are well cited here as a means to alert the reader of her probable bias. 'Freelance' also implies to me that she is a-political, which of course she would not be as a feminist monotheist.

An author's political ideology (e.g. feminism) has nothing to do with whether a writer is freelance or not. It is also nonsensical to suggest that one ideology (e.g. feminism) is more likely to create "probable bias" than another ideology (e.g. anti-feminism). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.155.159.200 (talk) 18:23, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

There was no such suggestion that feminism in particular creates bias. I can see reading that into what was actually said, as if the op added the "in particular", which is not actually present in any way, therefor read in mentally and inferred (correctly or not). 73.11.81.104 (talk) 18:27, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Some mention of modern American Animism, i.e. unformed belief in spirits outside of any theology, seems called for. Lycurgus 10:55, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Whatever that beilef should be called, it is not animism. Slrubenstein | Talk 22:47, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Might just be me, and constitute Wikipedia:OR; but couldn't this particular form of Animimism be summed up with something like....

Treating "existance"/"reality" as being a system of interacting black boxs, with anima replacing the "behavour" of black boxes

NB I'm English and first learnt of these animistic like topics through studying Mechanical Engineering, rather than religion/spirtuality.(That came later.)

steve10345 (talk) 05:55, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

I am trying to add citations as needed if appropriate and wanted others to look at this one. This is stated "Developmental psychology has since established that the distinction of animate vs. inanimate things is an abstraction acquired by learning." I have found this that may make it ^[1] understandable.

I have removed a linkfrom suggested reading section, which is no longer active. Please put it back if you can find it in a new web adress. Thanks..Ciup (talk) 16:13, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

what is John Maynard Keynes's animal spirits? Jackzhp (talk) 19:14, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

That book is an economics treatise, not a critique of animism one way or another. It's title comes from the fact that economic actors (which are humans, or else groups of them) do not act in a completely non-emotional rational manner, as earlier classical economic models expected. So, it's not really relevant to this Article. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 05:06, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

I have removed from the Mythology subtopic a sentence which read "For instance, Australian mythology focuses largely on corporeal, non-spiritual beings.^{[citation needed]}" because it is incorrect. The Australian Aborigines have ancestral spirits, human, flora or fauna in form ^[2] --AlotToLearn (talk) 02:18, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

re , I have actually written much of Wiki page "Asatru"/"Germnic Neopaganism". The article does not present any evidence to support your claim. Of course, all neopagan flavours attempt to revive historical animism, but there is nothing to suggest that Germanic neopaganism does this more than others. Re , "Neoshamanism is not a religion": is that so now? In this case, Neopaganism as a whole "is not a religion". This depends entirely of your personal definition of "religion". For narrower definitions, animism and religion are mutually exclusive because religion proper develops out of animism anthropologically.

Now please stop pushing Neopaganism on this page. It may be mentioned, but it isn't the focus of this page. If you have literature discussing Neopaganism in terms of animism, be sure to discuss it at Neopaganism, and after you did that, we can post a brief summary of your findings here. --dab (𒁳) 15:53, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree, "Neopaganism" is not a religion, because it is a term used as an "umbrella-term" for SEVERAL religions. Wicca and Asatru are two separate religions that are both fall under the term "Neopagan". Asatru is, in Europe, a legitimate, State recognized religion (by four European States: Spain, Denmark, Iceland, Norway). Wicca is not. It is by self-definition animistic and therefore as valid as Shinto or Hinduism, which are mentioned in the the preceding paragraphs. Furthermore, Wicca which IS specifically mentioned in the section following "new religious movements", is not animistic, but is by self definition an "immanent religion" and therefore only has very limited similarity with animism. Wicca is lacking in "land-spirit" and "wight" worship, etc. This is why Germanic Neopaganism is separated out of the umbrella-term "Neopagism", due to the fact that it stands apart from all other "Neopagan" traditions in that, without its animistic beliefs "Germanic Neopaganism" is not possible. This can be proven through Icelandic Sagas and laws (see Landnámabók, Heimskringla and Eybyggja Saga in part.) where the settlers of Iceland, were to remove the dragon-prows off their ships when approaching Iceland to prevent the frighting of "land-spirits". When settling their new land they carried fire around the land to mark it and to pacify the land-spirits. Another example of land spirits (in the Heimskrinla, chapt., Ólafs saga Tryggvasonar), is when a wizard goes to Iceland in whale shape to find a way to invade Iceland, but the land-spirits,who are on the side of the Icelanders, fend him off. (the crest on Icelandic money is the four land-spirits of this story.) This by definition, is classic animism. And in daily life the land spirit- and wight-worship is more important, or rather practised with more frequency, than the Blóts to the gods (See "Our Troth" pub. by "the Troth"). There is no other Neopagan tradition that has this in common with Asatru. That is why it has to be mentioned, because animism is not common in all religions that "Neopaganism" encompasses, but it is, and is essential, in all branches of Germanic-Neopaganism.

I also agree with you that there should be a specific section in the "Germanic-Neopaganism" page, that deals with animism. Even though animism is mentioned in the section "Rites and Practices", which clearly states that: "Animism or land veneration is most evident in the rituals dedicated to the elves and wights.". I will gather my findings on the subject and write a section. The fact that the latter page is lacking in an appropriate section, does not mean that this section is not based in fact. Please do not delete.

I hope you understand, am not "pushing" Neopaganism, I am adding Asatru.Odinsjarl (talk) 00:44, 21 February 2009 (UTC)Odinsjarl

I am not disputing there was animism and magical thinking in Viking Age paganism, just as in every other instance of historical paganism. But you keep conflating Neopaganism with historical Viking Age paganism. Don't do that. Please WP:CITE a reference in support of your claimed "fact" that Asatru "stands apart from all other 'Neopagan' traditions" wrt animism. I am not saying it isn't true, I am saying you need a reference or your assertion is pointless, per WP:TRUTH. I support your introduction of the Germanic_Neopaganism#Animism section as a good idea in principle, but there also you need to cite some appropriate reference. Please save us both some time by accepting right now that without references, you can do nothing on Wikipedia. I will be very pleased to discuss animism within Neopaganism with you, but this will only be possible based on quotable literature. --dab (𒁳) 12:43, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

The language in this section is not in any way neutral to begin with. "Purport to" and "like to describe themselves as"? Come on. Would you use that terminology about a follower of, say, Shinto? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.113.186.77 (talk) 02:16, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

The article should maybe try to better explain what have been the Christian attitudes towards animism. There have arguably been two different attitudes, one which is to denounce it as pagan or occult, and another which is to try and find relevant similarities between the two religions, such as in John Paul II's interfaith efforts on several continents. ADM (talk) 04:36, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Christian attitudes were far more complex than that. The missionaries generally denounced and accepted animism at the same time: it's not a dichotomy, those are different dimensions. The attitude of the home church was often different. Almost by definition, the missonaries were people who more interested in, had more sympathy with, and had a wider knowledge of religion. And more interested in, had more sympathy with, and had a deeper knowledge of the people.

The Roman Catholic attitude to both inclusion and denunciation predates John Paul II by millenia. The Roman Catholic church is explicitly traditional, and able to include elements not in conflict with the core faith. That church is also strongly denuncatory: if you are in the business of accepting traditional beliefs, you need to be strong and clear about which traditional beliefs are accepted and rejected. RC missionary practice in South America and in the Orient was both widely inclusive and strongly denunciatory. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.214.18.240 (talk) 12:14, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Couldn't belief in an omnipresent God be considered a form of animism? If God is within every beast,rock and tree, that sounds kind of like animism to me, or is animism more the idea that they all have seperate and distinct souls? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7D:1FC6:1A00:6424:C2C8:5915:8B9A (talk) 20:23, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

Exactly my view. See my earlier comments in this thread for more.

It may be best scientifically to take animism as just the study of innate human spirituality.

There are plenty of people investigating what the innate human moral systems might be. But it's even more touchy to get onto the religion topic and attempt to make it scientific. Daniel Quinn's essay titled "Our religions, are they the religions of humanity itself" is an interesting take on all of this and a great jumping off point for a deep dive into the topic of putatively innate human spirituality. 73.11.81.104 (talk) 18:34, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Ultimately if you are a self-proclaimed Christian but your real particular idiosyncratic beliefs are in a very abstract and God that animates all things and is present in all of them and it's on spiritual sense giving them individual personalities, then you're obviously a de facto animist… At least in my view. Also Marie Kondo is anatomist. And Buddhism has some very striking resemblance is. I can see my earlier comments, I think it's better to just consider animism the Nate side of human divinity and spirituality and stinks and then go from there. So then of course tribal peoples are going to display them in the most unaltered version, but civilized peoples will also display them, because what else could we do?

All religious perspectives that humans are capable of creating ultimately arise from (or at least conceived within the parameters of) human spirituality instincts at base. 73.11.81.104 (talk) 18:37, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

I haven't read all that much about it (though I am in the process of changing that--I've got some books on hold at the local library), but doesn't the Korean indigenous tradition of Muism/shamanism fall under animism, too? Would any Wikipedians be opposed to my adding appropriate references to it in the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.26.238.33 (talk) 16:31, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Of course the Korean indigenous tradition is animist -- unless, as is becoming increasingly common, you define "animist" to be an outdated theoretical construct which does not actually include any real examples at all. The problem with that approach is that it does not leave us with a generic term (like "monotheist" or "pantheist") to describe, however inadequately, this group of religions, and no modern term has yet emerged to replace it.

The generic term "animist" conceals real differences in belief: it's kind of like calling some one an "American". But if you read much anthropology, you'll see that anthropologists prefer to look at subsets of that group too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.214.18.240 (talk) 10:59, 12 December 2009 (UTC)