Talk:Baritone horn

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Baritone horn is currently a Music good article nominee. Nominated by Jonathanischoice (talk) at 05:58, 7 April 2026 (UTC)

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Playable keys

I looked at this page and found it very confusing. The fact I was looking for - the baritone is not chromatic, but capable of playing the notes C, Db, D, Eb, E, F, Gb, G, Ab, A and therefore has all the notes for the keys appearing two fifths either side of B flat. Namely C, F, Bb, Eb and Ab with decreasing numbers of notes in other keys. Tradimus (talk) 02:56, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

Although the article is less than clear on the topic, my understanding is that the baritone horn is capable of playing chromatically, like any other brass instrument with three valves. Can you go into further detail about the "decreasing numbers of notes in other keys"? Just plain Bill (talk) 10:38, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

I stand corrected. Versatility relies on skill of the player, rther than the instrument. please delete my comment Tradimus (talk) 16:23, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

Bell front baritones/euphoniums

There were a lot of these built under both names (e.g., King calls it a baritone, and Yamaha calls it a euphonium). Most were usually odd hybrids that were not fully conical nor cylindrical. I think a further discussion is warranted about what to do with these instruments (since many sources differ). Why? I Ask (talk) 20:23, 6 November 2025 (UTC)

Yeah tricky. What I've done so far is treat them as a type of euphonium, since they are closer in bore and bell than the British baritone. I've put a {{for}} hatnote redirect on the baritone article, "for the American baritone, see Euphonium" but there probably needs to be more about it there. Dave Werden and Cliff Bevan spend some time discussing it - they're all conical, apart from the necessarily cylindrical valve tubing, but it's a matter of degree, where the American baritones fall between the large bore euphonium and smaller bore British baritone. Somewhere there's a comparison where someone's measured and compared the bore diameters and bell widths of a bunch of instruments, but I can't remember where that is right now. It would be neat to also somehow squeeze in Steve Carell's little bit from The 40-Year-Old Virgin (2005) but I suspect that's not noteable enough?! — Jon (talk) 21:19, 6 November 2025 (UTC)

Yeah, I have seen Werden's discussions on the matter, but I know there are some detractors. Is there a way to include the bell front models on the euphonium page? I removed the hatnote since the matter is a bit too complicated to simply say "American baritones are euphoniums" since some American bands have true baritones. Most makers do not even offer the American-style anymore, and the makers that do, like Jupiter and Yamaha, actually call them euphoniums. A lot of models from the mid-century, like the Conn 14I, used both terms. Why? I Ask (talk) 21:53, 6 November 2025 (UTC)

Meanwhile, someone's started a GA review of euphonium so that's progress... — Jon (talk) 22:15, 6 November 2025 (UTC)

Interestingly, I have been reading Wind Talk for Brass which talks about the difference between the two instruments in America, stating: The fact is that all of these physical characteristics are mixed and matched on many makes of instruments, and that these instruments may be called either “baritone” or “euphonium”. It seems to support the fact that American-style baritones are impossible to put into one exact family. Why? I Ask (talk) 06:00, 8 November 2025 (UTC)

From Michael O'Connor's history in the Euphonium Source Book:^[1] "American musicians and arrangers of the nineteenth century considered the large-bore euphonium as the upper member of the tuba section, simply calling it the B♭ bass. For Americans the term “baritone” was reserved for an instrument that featured a bore size midway between the B♭ bass and B♭ valved tenor horn." Which is interesting for several reasons: 1. these three (bass, baritone and tenor) are the three instruments in B♭ depicted in the 19th C. Lyon & Healy catalog that illustrates both articles, 2. the "tenor horn" (at that time, at least) meant a narrow bore instrument in B♭ which provides another reason why the E♭ horn is called the "alto horn" in the US, and 3. shows where the US usage of "baritone" to mean an instrument somewhere between the two comes from, given the British baritone horn is the equivalent of the US B♭ "tenor" horn. Not that this needs to be any more confusing. — Jon (talk) 11:25, 17 November 2025 (UTC)

Now that euphonium passed GA, and I've got tenor horn nominated and out of the way for now, I'd like to figure out how to approach the whole American baritone question, fix up this article as needed, and get it nominated for GA too. I'm going to do a bit more digging and reading first, and pour over all the catalogues at Horn-U-Copia, Internet Archive, and elsewhere. It would be nice if there was a DMA thesis somewhere with a nice table of measurements to compare... I have a feeling I've seen that somewhere before. — Jonathanischoice (talk) 05:17, 24 November 2025 (UTC)

@Why? I Ask: thanks for your recent edits. I had a go at addressing it a little while ago, but do you think there's more we can write (and cite) to clarify the "American baritone" thing? I think we'd be able to nominate it for GA once that's done. (Also, I think tuba is getting close too, but I have a todo list! haha) — Jonathanischoice (talk) 09:25, 17 March 2026 (UTC)

@Why? I Ask: I've added a sub-talk scratchpad with relevant quotes to ponder from various sources, which may be helpful: /American baritone vs euphonium scratchpad — Jonathanischoice (talk) 11:17, 24 March 2026 (UTC)

Well I've done my best with it, including adding an image, and discussing it in the Name and History sections, and nominated it for GA. — Jonathanischoice (talk) 07:01, 7 April 2026 (UTC)

References

[1]
Michael O'Connor (2007). "A Short History of the Euphonium and Baritone Horn". In Lloyd E. Bone Jr.; Eric Paull; R. Winston Morris (eds.). Guide to the Euphonium Repertoire: The Euphonium Source Book. Bloomington: Indiana University Press. p. 2. ISBN 0-253-34811-0. Wikidata Q135963380.

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