Talk:Crypto-Judaism

The articles about the Messianic sects are somewhat out of place on this page. Messianic jews are considered jews only by they themselves. I'm not familiar enough with the issue to remove it from the article, but someone better informed on Wikipedia's policy on religious identification should do so (Are Messianics jews because they claim to be, or are they not because no one else thinks they are, is the base question here and I imagine WP has a consistent policy on the patter). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.215.176.107 (talk) 06:11, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

A general rule concerning minorities, ethnic groups, etc. is that self-identification is the determining factor. If the "Messianic Jews" call themselves Jews, so be it....That doesn't imply any obligation for them to be accepted as Jews by other people who claim to be Jews. Smallchief 17:17, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Messianic Jews are simply Ethnic Jews who practice Nazarene Judaism (as Christianity was historically known. See Nazarene.), Jewish Christians, etc. Jewishness is primarily ethnic and then religious ^[1] Remember that Israelites were later called "Judeans" or "Jews" ("Yehudim"). Also refer to Carol Harris-Shapiro's and Dan Cohn-Sherbok's Wikipedia entries.108.3.202.179 (talk) 04:27, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Any discussion of Messianic Jews would be out of place on this page, no matter the controversy, because Messianic Judaism is a completely modern creation. There was no such thing as Messianic Judaism at the time the article is discussing. Messianic Jews is not a generic term, and it is not a correct way to describe the situation of the Frankists who were part of 17th century Messianism (the similarity in names is likely to cause further confusion, another reason to avoid the term Messianic Judaism here) - The Frankists, far from being Jews who believed in Christianity, believed that Jacob Frank was the Messiah. 73.240.169.138 (talk) 12:32, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

One thing is to be descended from Jews (i.e. to have Jewish ancestry) and another thing is to be a Crypto-Jew. A Crypto-Jew (from the Greek kruptós, which means "hidden")is someone who secretly believes in the Jewish religion while practicing in public another religion. For example the Jews in Belmonte. I've deleted the names of Fidel Castro and Baruch Spinoza because they aren't (or weren't) "secret believers of the Jewish faith". Fidel Castro is/was atheist and Baruch Spinoza made clear that he did NOT adhere to Judaism. --82.108.214.211 17:24, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I've restored them, as they were descended from crypto-Jews; do we want to include descendants? And Spinoza was unquestionably raised as a Jew, whatever his beliefs as an adult.--Runcorn 22:56, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I've added another meaning that is missing, it also includes people that try to hide their background by claiming other ethnicities for various reasons. This would adhere to the meaning of "hidden" as well and the term does not need to apply only to someone who secretly practices the religion, as Judiasm is more of an ethnic background than a religion, really. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.97.195.2 (talk) 21:37, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

In Spain? I remember hearing about Mexico (OK, it was in Cryptonomicon), though. -- Error

Yeah, small communities of Jewish origin that maintain certain customs and tend to marry only among themselves. Ben Zvi wrote about them in the 1950s. Danny

Some recent discussions on National Public Radio about some families who have lived in New Mexico for a long time, too. -- Zoe

I added the second paragraph to add the more common modern definition of this term and examples. Please offer feedback if you agree or disagree and have any comments. Thanks. - U. Jones —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.97.195.2 (talk) 19:03, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Why was my addition deleted? This term has a different meaning today which is no doubt worth mentioning. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.97.195.2 (talk) 21:17, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Carlos Santana is allegedly descended from Crypto-Jews, although I don't think he currently practices Judaism. It would be nice to mention this in the article if it can be substantiated. --Viriditas | Talk 12:54, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Conversions in any institutionalised religion are overseen and officiated by authorised clergy to validate and, more importantly, certify the conversion.

To use "pretend" in this context is ambiguous at best, since one cannot "pretend" to convert because indeed it has to be (as stated above) overseen and officiated by an authorised clergy member of that particular religious institution.

The Sephardim who became crypto-Jews couldn't "pretend" to convert to Catholicism any more than a modern-day Catholic can pretend to convert to Judaism. Without the authority of the Beit Din, it is not a conversion. One either converts, or one doesn't. If it isn't officiated, then it isn't a conversion.

The Spanish Inquisition weeded out those Jews who had converted and were still secretly practising Judaism. Those Jews who hadn't converted, and hadn't already left, were simply expelled since church paperwork would clearly indicated they hadn't converted, no matter how much they "pretended". Nothing "cryptic" about that. Al-Andalus 12:53, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC).

Your claim makes little sense. The Jews pretended to convert to Christianity so that the authorities were fooled, but in fact did not accept the faith upon themselves. Also, your continued reversions of the paragraph in question are to a version which makes little sense gramatically. Your other changes either introduce dubious claims not found in the source, or add too many qualifiers to a perfectly understandable sentence. I'm going to try to get a third opinion on this. Jayjg ^(talk) 16:56, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The term "crypto" literally means covert or secret. While Crypto Jews were certainly insincere converts, I think "pretend" gives a better sense that there was specific intention to give a false appearance by going through all the motions of conversion, properly officiated, in order to keep their identity as Jews secret. --MPerel^{( talk | contrib)} 18:36, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)

I understand the reasoning as MPerel has explained, but the use of the word "pretend" in imdeiate continuity with the word "convert" is extremely ambiguos. It should be at least clarified that they DID convert, and that the "pretention" wasn't the conversion itself (as this had to have been official) but rather their adoption of the identity as Christians. They were pretending to be Christians, but there was nothing to pretend about the conversion istelf. It's quite a simple concept. Al-Andalus 23:48, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC).

To further my argument as to why "pretend" shouldn't be used I'll examine the structure in which it is written:

"The original Crypto-Jews were Sephardi Jews who pretended to convert to Catholicism..."

This tell us that "they pretended the conversion". Thus the verb is "pretend" and the subject is "convert". Yet this is not the case, though I do understand what you are saying when you came to the defense of Jayjg, but his use of the word is VERY ambiguos. I'm reverting it back to propper clear English structure where ambiguity is avoided. Al-Andalus 05:54, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC).

I hear what you're saying. How about a different approach that may resolve this? Since the conversion aspect is actually covered nicely in the Marranos article, how about if we restructure the sentence to refer to the other article. Also, the Sephardi converts of the Spanish Inquisition were actually not the first crypto-Jews, though they are the most well-known. I'm going to go ahead and make the following replacement in the article, but feel free to modify and further discuss: Marranos who publicly professed Catholicism but privately adhered to Judaism during the Spanish Inquisition are the most widely known crypto-Jews. However, the phenomenon of crypto-Judaism dates back to earlier times as Jews forced or pressured to convert by their sovereign hosts secretly kept Jewish rites. For example the father of Maimonides purportedly nominally embraced Islam during the Almohad persecutions in Spain in 1146. --MPerel^{( talk | contrib)} 10:50, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)

Great wording. Jayjg ^(talk) 17:01, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

There is a whole other meaning here that has been missed, which I added. Yes, crypto means hidden and this term also describes those who hide their Jewish ethnic background by claiming other nationalities and races for various reasons. This is a more common use of the term and phenomenon of modern society. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.97.195.2 (talk) 21:49, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Someone wanna write an article about Belmonte? All I know about it is it's a town in northern portugal that's supposedly about half crypto-Jews and half not. It is mentioned in one of the Jewish languages articles, Judæo-Portuguese. Tomer ^TALK 17:18, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)

anyone have information on what if anything happened when jewish communities were established (or expanded) in the late 30's and early 40's in mexico and south america as a result of WWII related mass migrations? did any putative communities of crypto-jews out themselves to join jewish communities practicing openly? i have never heard of any such event but it begs the question, why would a community remain practicing in secret when there are others who for decades have been practicing openly. info on this topic would give great historical context to this article. uri budnik 10:06, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

After many generations of crypto-jewish traditions much of the ancestral religion is irretrievably lost. Modern crypto-jewish traditions do not constitute normative Judaism. The only accepted re-entry into Judaism is conversion to normative Judaism. 24.48.182.26 02:07, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

There are no "communities" of crypto-Jews in South America - the families that hid their identities couldn't be expected to maintain that identity and strict intra-marriage for hundreds of years (5-15 generations). Hiding your identity makes it hard to prevent intermarriage. What does exist are families with one or two traditions which seem likely to indicate they may have had a crypto-Jewish ancestor. Or families who have a family narrative of a Crypto-Jewish ancestor. The details are generally lost though, and very few could actually trace their genealogy to a specific Jewish person. The WW2 Jewish communities in South America were pretty insular during the first generation, but as they have integrated into their communities, people who believed they have a Crypto-Jewish past did start to present themselves to the Jewish communities, where they were generally offered conversion.

The inquisition officially ended in 1834, and they had lost their influence over South America before that. Had there been Crypto-Jews still aware of their own status, they would have been able to resume open practice before the WW2 Jews arrived.73.240.169.138 (talk) 10:04, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

To those looking for references on Xuetas, check Los judíos en España, Joseph Pérez. Marcial Pons. Madrid (2005). --Error 01:16, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

As anyone considered a section on fictional or hoax "Crypto-Jews?" There had to be a few?--V. Joe 01:28, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I have restored some deletions. The article lists people who have credibly been proposed as crypto-Jews; in the case of Columbus, the proposal is credible enough to be in Encyclopaedia Britannica, so should certainly be listed.--Brownlee 10:16, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

True, they are both suspected of having converso roots, but my greivance now is that Crypto-Jews are only the conversos who still secretly practiced Judaism. Where is the evidence to support that Columbus, Rivera, Cervantes, and most of these people still practiced Judaism in secret? Thats the key difference between a plain-old converso and a crypto-Jew. If you can find sources that speculate they still practiced Judaism then its ok to leave them on here. Otherwise we have a new "definition" concern. LaGrange 12:48, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Depends what definition you have of "practised Judaism". The contention of some scholars is that their Jewishness is manifest by its effect on their behaviour and writings.--Brownlee 15:07, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Crypto-Judaism is the secret adherence to Judaism while publicly professing to be of another faith; people who practice crypto-Judaism are referred to as "crypto-Jews".

Therefore crypto-Jews would need to be conversos who still secretly practiced Judaism. Do we have sources that state that Fernando de Rojas, Diego Rivera, and Cervantes may have still practiced Judaism in secret? Some are certainly conversos, but not Crypto-Jews. Marranos are those who still practiced Judaism in secret. And so the only people who seem to qualify is Castro and Spinoza. As for Borges, we have citations of him having "Jewish" ancestry but nothing about it being "converso" and in addition to that we need one that says he still practiced Judaism (or one that suspects he still practiced Judaism) because this is what defines a crypto-jew LaGrange 04:19, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

The term marrano is especially used to refer to Crypto-Jews, i.e. those who secretly continued to practise Judaism.

If we can find sources calling them marranos (conversos who still practiced Judaism) or stating they practiced Judaism in secret, then they can be re-added. We need citations:

• Fernando de Rojas novelist

He was a converso but was he a marrano who still practiced Judaism?

• Diego Rivera, painter, married Frida Kahlo

He was descended from conversos but did he still practice Judaism or rather did his ancestors still practice Judaism in secret?

• Miguel Cervantes has long been suspected of being a very "nuevo cristiano" ;Encyclopaedia Judaica.

He "may have had converso ancestors." Does anything state they were marranos?

• Christopher Columbus: Encyclopaedia Judaica, Encyclopaedia Britannica

Same. Anything about possibly marranos ancestry?

These are the citations we need. LaGrange 04:31, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Can we please not invent new definitions; it's a violation of WP:NOR.--Newport 12:15, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Have you bothered to read this article? Do you have a definition of a crypto-jew that differs from the one present on this article? A crypto-jew is not synonymous with a converso.

From Crypto-Jew:

Crypto-Judaism is the secret adherence to Judaism while publicly professing to be of another faith; people who practice crypto-Judaism are referred to as "crypto-Jews". The many Marranos (in the Balearic Islands, Chuetas), who publicly professed Catholicism but privately adhered to Judaism during the Spanish Inquisition, and particularly after the Alhambra decree of 1492, are the most widely known crypto-Jews.

From Marranos:

Many Marranos maintained their ancestral traditions as crypto-Jews, by publicly professing Catholicism but secretly adhering to Judaism.

"Famous Crypto-Jews" is not the same thing as "Famous Conversos". We need sources stating those people were either "Marranos" and/or professed Judaism in secret. That simple. LaGrange 15:48, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

David Ben Gurion was born in Poland, not Turkey. I deleted this misinformation.

Please edit entry of Castro's alleged "marrano" ancestry. Consult his daughter's biography. His maternal grandfather was a secular Jew from the Ottoman Empire who emigrated to Cuba. Though of Sefaedite ancestry Castro is not descended from "marranos", as the anusim were called by the Christian Spaniards. Fidel Castro and his sister living in Miami both deny that she is Castro's daughter which casts doubt on any reliability there.

The statements about Ataturk are baseless and not supporetd by any kind of evidence. Just because there is an allegation in a book about this statement, does not make it a fact. There are also books which claims Adolf Hitler was jewish!

On the other hand Sabetayist movement and community in Ottoman Empire and in modern Turkey can be considered as a form of crypto-judaism. Isatay 07:31, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

If Marrano is an insulting term, why is it so prominent in the article when Jews used other terms, eg., new christian? I'm not suggesting it not be used, but shouldn't the preferred terms of the Jews be used rather than the insult of their tormentors? 4.233.200.135 06:31, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

"... there still remain a number of Jews known as the "Jedid al-Islam," who were converted to Islam half a century ago ("Il Vessillo Israelitico," April, 1884)."

Half a century before what date? If the source is from 1884, that's more than a full century before the current date (see timestamp @ sig below).

This should be clarified. --Davecampbell 23:40, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I think I found someone to add to your list, this is only my speculation,It is possible that Eva Longoria could be a descendent of the Conversos, here are some reasons why this could be possible. 1. Eva longoria's parents were fron the brooks county in south texas. many of the hispanic or Mexican American people from south texas were descendents of the Crypto-Jews. 2. "In the New World of the 1600s, my ancestor, Lorenzo Suares de Longoria, an old Christian, who lived in Nuevo León, established a relationship with a woman from Nuevo León who was a descendant of Conversos." Frank Longoria in article Frank Longoria's story. []

  "Raul Longoria traces this distinguished family’s descent from Lorenzo Suarez de Longoria" Eva Longoria:

The Roots of a Desperate Housewife [] the first quote by Frank longoria (Frank and Eva are not related, but in the same clan) who confirmed he was a converso. He said that his ancestor Lorenzo Suarez de Longoria who was an Old Christian who was also the ancestor of Eva Longoria, had a relationship with a converso woman from Nuevo Leon.We cannot be sure that Lorenzo Suarez de Longoria did marry the converso woman, if he did marry the woman, Eva definately has Jewish routes. I am not saying that Eva Longoria is definatly a Converso, but what I am saying is that it is possible that Eva Longoria could has some converso ancestors. If you want more information click on the internet links I placed in this discussion on Eva Longoria. --Bad Inquisitor 16:40, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I am fixing some wrong assumptions regarding the numbers, location and actual existence! of so-called crypto-Jews in the Iberian Peninsula. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Laocoont (talk • contribs) 07:48, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

This message about Eva Longoria was actually from me and i wonder if anyone could plese sent me a message about if Eva is of Marrano descent or not. thanks La convivencia (talk) 18:49, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I wonder if Evan Longoria can be included?  :) Unless it's published publicly, per WP:BLP, we can't say anything. Anyways, even if she is descended from Marrano's or Conversos, she probably doesn't practice crypto-Judaism. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 21:39, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I think someone should email Eva Longoria or her Parents and ask them if they are descended of Spanish or Portuguese Marranos La convivencia (talk) 21:14, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

That would be an interesting topic. 94.222.176.154 (talk) 12:32, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

If one adheres to Judaism while pretending to be irreligious, isn't the person a crypto-Judaist still? If so, the definition should be extended to cover this nuance. EIN (talk) 14:13, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

The article states:

"During World War II, Nazi Germany was known to have pressured Majorcan religious authorities into surrendering the Xuetes, targeted because of their Jewish ancestry. Reportedly the religious authorities refused the Nazi request."

How would the Nazis have demanded anything of Mallorca, it's part of Spain it was neutral and unoccupied by the Germans during the war (in fact it was a fascist ally). If there's no citation I would suggest taking it down, it sounds like just another "Nazi story".Historian932 (talk) 03:13, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

I don't know anything about this story of the Xuetes and the Nazis, but it certainly isn't surprising, Spain was neutral, but Franco being a fascist dictator showed sympathy towards Mussolini and Hitler — Preceding unsigned comment added by Knoterification (talk • contribs) 15:43, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

The Romaniote Jewish community of Greece lived there for hundreds of years as a Jewish community. What is there that is or was "hidden" about them? 66.75.232.157 (talk) 20:44, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

In hindsight, methinks Pope Alexander II was a crypto-Jew...

1. he blessed/praised Afonso the Conqueror of Toledo in 1060 for his tolerant attitude to Jews and their Jewish immigration.

2. he financed/blessed the Norman invasion of Saxon England by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_the_Conqueror in 1066, whom went on to introduced his Jewish overlords into England from Spain.

Timescales and conquerors and Jews. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7D:411:1600:226:8FF:FEDC:FD74 (talk) 03:09, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

Without reliable sources making that assertion, this is just original research, which is inappropriate for Wikipedia. clpo13_(talk) 19:11, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

Okay, thanks for the setting-out why. Will root about for some back-up. Something worth it seems to be going on, but then again, not even John Calvin's crypto-Jewishness seems enough to be listed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7D:411:1600:226:8FF:FEDC:FD74 (talk) 00:35, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

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The Marrano article states that that term is a synonym for Crypto-Jew. I'd say these should just be merged. Granted one can argue that marrano is sometimes used in slightly different ways from Crypto-Jew. However, between the articles Crypto-Jew and Converso I think all of the potential shades of meaning for marrano are well covered. In other words, there is no shade of meaning in between those two that merits a separate article. And even if there was, marrano would not be a good term to use for that as it is normally used synonymously with crypto-jew.

Anybody disagree?

-- MC 141.131.2.3 (talk) 16:41, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree because the term "marrano" is often used distinctly in literature on the subject and is commonly known by many people in Jewish community, rather than the term "crypto-Jew". While one could say all marranos are crypto-Jews, not all crypto-Jews are marranos. I think it is important that people who come across the term marrano and want more information are able to go to a page solely dedicated to the topic, and I believe it merits its own page. Zchai72 (talk) 10:47, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

I concur, it is distinct as it relates to marranos and does merit its on page.Simbagraphix (talk) 02:14, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

I put a dubious tag on the statement that "only Christians were allowed to come to the New World." In fact, a lot of crypto-jews, conversos, and marranos came to the New World in the 16th century and afterwards. Thus, this statement needs to be deleted or clarified. Smallchief (talk) 12:15, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

This isn't dubious. The New World territories under Spanish control, were subject to Spanish laws (the Alhambra Decree applied to the new world). Jews, Muslims and Protestants were expressly forbidden to go to the Spanish New World territories. There were several edicts issued banning them. Even the New Christian converts were banned. At least one edict extended the ban to children and grandchildren of new converts. Every person going to the new world had to be vetted and given traveling papers certifying them as good Catholics.

The Spanish inquisition set up offices in several locations in the new world, including Mexico City and Lima. They were brutal in persecuting suspected Jews, because it was illegal for them to be there. That is why there were Crypto-Jews - The Jews had to hide their identity or risk being killed. If it wasn't illegal for Jews to be there, they wouldn't have continued to hide being Jewish.

Obviously many Jews managed to make it to the new world anyway. Some bought papers, others went through English or French territories, and I'm sure they were creative about getting there.

Here are some explanations, but some might not qualify as good citations.

Lea's book on the Inquisition

Smithsonian Mag

Auto Da Fe in Mexico

Textbook, in spanish, see page 42 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Laella (talk • contribs) 09:29, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

I'm probably not the one to do it, but this article should include a discussion of the many DNA studies of the past few years that show striking genetic similarities between Sefardi Jews and Hispanic and indigenous groups in the US Southwest and Mexico, corresponding to the history of the conversos.Roger.Lustig (talk) 17:27, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

There aren't "striking genetic similarities". There are bits of Sephardic DNA in the genome of some communities of Latin American (and in a few specific North American communities). This corresponds with the arrival of Sephardic Jews to the Americas during the Age of Discovery. This wasn't surprising given that Spain had a lot of Sephardic Jews, many of whom were trying to leave Spain.

The DNA studies are interesting, and probably do deserve a mention. A list of communities with relatively high percentages of Sephardic DNA would be interesting as well, although I am not sure there is enough research to support making a list.

Here is a starting citation if someone wants to look into it - The impact of Converso Jews on the genomes of modern Latin Americans

--Laella (talk) 06:16, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

Please mention this as it shows that the hiding of Jewish identity as a result of antisemitism never truly went away, an important topic which needs to be discussed in these times to add historical context and its ties to a modern issue. 2.31.113.66 (talk) 18:35, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

I removed some unsourced content here that by all accounts was WP:OR and had been completely unsourced since 2016 and I could not find sources for it. There is still a great deal of content on this article that needs better sourcing or more should be similarly revised or removed to avoid leaving unsourced WP:OR on the page. Iljhgtn (talk) 01:58, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

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