Talk:ExxonMobil/Archive 5

This article used to have a heading "Support for climate change denialism" which was removed or changed in this extensive edit. Should a heading called "Support for climate change denialism" be restored in the article?

Note that there has been discussion of this issue with involved editors above on this talk page. Note also that we're not looking so much for votes here, as for in-depth comments on the content issues, and possible proposals of how the content should read. The RfC is posed as a question, but we welcome comments and new ideas as per the above section.

SageRad (talk) 15:43, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

• oppose Waste of time; please use the section "Proposal for changing a section heading" above. Please stop disruptively starting more and more discussions in a desperate attempt to get your view rammed through William M. Connolley (talk) 15:49, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

I will just let that stand, as your opinion. I think that some fresh eyes are needed. I ask you to refrain from framing my presence here in the rather nasty way you just did. I'm simply seeking more eyes for an NPOV article. SageRad (talk) 15:52, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

Lets agree that more important from the fact who is commenting is the fact if and how their arguments are based on the Wikipedia policies, fresh eyes or not (and probably editors who have actively participated in climate change disputes and have certain bias, in one way or another, are not "fresh eyes" even if they have not participated in the discussion on this article talk page before). Beagel (talk) 07:05, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

• Yes: It's a simple case of "if the shoe fits". The heading was created in 2011 here and has remained until a week ago. It makes sense, and it's the simplest way to name the topic for what it is. No reason to water down a section heading. It doesn't serve the reader. Reliable sources report the reality that we must reflect:

• Exxon Mobil on Hot Seat for Global Warming Denial (U.S. News)
• ExxonMobil gave millions to climate-denying lawmakers despite pledge (The Guardian)
• Union of Concerned Scientists: "ExxonMobil made a public break with CEI in 2007 after coming under scrutiny from UCS and other groups for its funding of climate contrarian organizations."
• "Dark Money" Funds Climate Change Denial Effort (Scientific American) "From 2003 to 2007, Koch Affiliated Foundations and the ExxonMobil Foundation were "heavily involved" in funding climate change denial efforts."
• Researchers: Exxon, Koch Family Have Powered the Climate-Denial Machine for Decades (Slate.com)

So, this happened, according to reliable sources. If we don't report it honestly, then we're in violation of WP:NPOV -- it's not neutral to water it down when it's a huge story in so many reliable sources, using exactly those word. They funded climate change denialism. That is what happened. Wikipedia reports what happened. Period. SageRad (talk) 15:58, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

• Not in as many words - (EDIT: I came here from Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Maths, science, and technology‎) As I understand the existing arguments above, there are two main camps - 1) Section headings should be neutrally worded in accordance with WP:NPOV, and 2) Exxon's conduct has been so manifestly unethical that a neutrally worded section heading is itself a violation of WP:NPOV. With respect, the editors in camp #2 misunderstand NPOV. It does not matter how manifestly unethical a topic may be, WP still presents the topic in neutral point of view. A classic example is the question of whether to describe Adolf Hitler as "evil" - regardless of your views on the topic, Wikipedia should merely state the facts of what the man did, which leaves the reader quite capable of judging for themselves whether or not he was "evil". In this case, "support for climate change denialism" is clearly a NPOV violation, particularly the word "denialism". What exactly do you object to about a neutrally worded heading such as "Climate change debate", and allowing the facts presented within to speak for themselves? --Yeti Hunter (talk) 16:47, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

"Neutral" means following the reliable sources. It's got a special meaning within Wikipedia. Not following sources and watering down language is the opposite of neutral in this regard. Also please don't think there are "camps" here but just comment on the content please. It's not about groups or numbers but rather the evidence in the form of reliable sources. SageRad (talk) 17:23, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

With respect, following reliable sources is WP:RS and WP:V, not WP:NPOV, which is summarised: "Articles must not take sides, but should explain the sides, fairly and without editorial bias. This applies to both what you say and how you say it." The "holocaust denial" argument is used as an example. Having a section heading "Support for climate change denialism" means Wikipedia is endorsing the view that Exxon does this. Exxon and others deny this is the case. Whether Exxon actually does this or not is beside the point. Wikipedia should not participate in the debate, but merely report that a debate exists.--Yeti Hunter (talk) 22:02, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

• Yes: As an uninvolved editor here, I completely agree with SageRad. NPOV is not jeopardized as long as the context provided by reliable sources is clearly stated in the source's voice, and not Wikipedia's. Darknipples (talk) 18:42, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

Yes, but the section heading does imply that Wikipedia agrees that Exxon engaged in climate change denialism.--Yeti Hunter (talk) 22:03, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

Yes, and that works because it's correct acording to many reliable sources. SageRad (talk) 14:30, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

• No... but I think what we should be doing is trying to come up with a better overall structure. The titles should be NPOV and that means they should not suggest an outcome or preference. "Climate change denial" is very much a non-neutral phrase. I think it would be better if people suggested a structure that would encompass several sections all at once so we could decide if it made sense. Basically I'm not endorsing the current structure but I'm not agreeing we should just change a single subheading and move on. As a group, please suggest what the subject structure should look like and what should go where. Springee (talk) 19:34, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

Thought experiment: would it be "neutral" in the NPOV sense if the "Bhopal disaster" heading at the Union Carbide article were changed to "Events in India"? Reality is the arbiter. Neutrality in the Wikipedia NPOV sense mears representing reality without bias. It does not mean neutral sounding or bland language. Bland language about a thing that's not bland can be equally non-neutral. Did all the reliable sources about ExxonMobil write "ExxonMobil's attitudes about climate change were not quite in line with the general consensus"? No, they wrote that ExxonMobil supported climate change denial. So following sources would be neutral. SageRad (talk) 20:20, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

First, this is hardly the same level of "disaster" as the UC plant explosion. Second, for WP purposes the Bhopal disaster can be neutrally referred to as the "Union Carbide Bhopal plant explosion". Finally, I don't see that there is a claim that there is a wide spread proper noun called the 'ExxonMobil climate change denial'. Basically I get what you are saying but that is an example of overwhelming evidence saying that an otherwise non-neutral name is the common name. We don't have that here. Springee (talk) 22:26, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

I also get what you're saying, and appreciate our ability to disagree in a civil way. I do think climate change is a vast disaster, so large it's hard to see it as such sometimes. Secondly, that incident is referred to as a disaster in Wikivoice as it reflects reliable sources. Finally, there is a widespread "proper noun" referring to ExxonMobil's support for climate change denial -- see the sources that i listed in my support for this RfC, above. Some headlines directly contain this proper noun. Thanks for good discussion. SageRad (talk) 13:51, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

• No. Section titles should be NPOV, or at least not libelous. H. Humbert (talk) 23:17, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
• No. I don't think that an entire section should be devoted to it. A passage or two in the context of a section like "issue advocacy" or "public affairs" under "Corporate affairs" would be appropriate with a cross-reference to the Climate change denial article. The existence of a section like this is not universal among company article .. I had to search a bit to find an example. For instance, see Intel where there are several sections under "Corporate affairs" like "school funding" and "open source support". Also, Keurig Green Mountain, where there are subsections "sustainability" and "corporate social responsibility". A passage or _short_ section could be written in an NPOV manner. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 02:06, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

I think that this s a good idea to integrate it into the "Corporate affairs" section. Support this proposal by Ceyockey. Beagel (talk) 16:56, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

• Maybe. Perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't see why it would be inappropriate. The sources appear to amply suggest that Exxon has been a major player in supporting climate change denial. (Climate change denial is a real thing, by the way... it's not just a slur against Exxon). If we have a load of academic sources documenting a very real, uncontroversial history of Exxon supporting "x", I don't see why we shouldn't discuss it, whatever "x" may be. I'm not so much tied to "Support for climate change denial" as I am opposed to "Criticism"; we should name the section descriptively based on its contents. A documented historical trend significantly covered in academic sources is not general "criticism", even moreso given that such a title implies some kind of controversy, or "political opponent." I'd also be fine with "involvement with climate change", or "political activities" with a subheading "climate change", or "lobbying efforts", or whatever. Just name it descriptively... not "criticism".   — Jess· Δ♥ 06:14, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
  • Isn't "climate change denier" just another way to say "quack" or "fraud"? Quacks and frauds are real things too. H. Humbert (talk) 07:26, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
    • No, it isn't. Read climate change denial. It is the name of a movement aimed at discrediting the scientific opinion on climate change. There isn't really a "nice" name for it, in the same way that... say... "conspiracy theorists" don't usually like the label. It has negative connotations for some people (the whole point of the movement is to mislead the public and sway policy, so no wonder...), but that's the name for the subject we're stuck with. A "quack" can be described in other ways ("a discredited/unaccredited medical practitioner" or "a practitioner of alternative medicine" or "a naturopath"). We don't have so many options for "climate change denial". I made several suggestions... but we shouldn't shy away from being accurate and descriptive just because there isn't a "nice substitute".   — Jess· Δ♥ 07:51, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

It may be a movement but is the term "climate change denial" a self identifying label and has ExxonMobil applied it to themselves? Springee (talk) 14:24, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

It's a well-defined term. Entities do not need to apply a label to themselves for it to be correct. A murdered often does not call himself a murderer, either, and yet they still are called that by others. SageRad (talk) 16:14, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

What label Exxon decides to use for PR isn't relevant... we aren't their PR firm. The fact is the label is accurate, well sourced, and doesn't have a good substitute.   — Jess· Δ♥ 19:11, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

• Note in those words. Yes, the section should be retained, but a neutral title is needed. The current "Climate change" is ambiguous (it might mean the company's effects on climate change, etc.) The earlier version "Attitude toward global warming" is a little iffy. Something like "Position on climate change" is probably better.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  12:55, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

"Neutral" in WP:NPOV means to represent the sources accurately. SageRad (talk) 14:14, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

@SmCandlish, the current heading is a subsection of "Environmental record", which I think gives us context. If we're going to expand the title, I'd prefer "Lobbying on" over "Position on". Climate change denial is more about lobbying and swaying public opinion than it is about simply holding beliefs on the topic. Would that be alright with you?   — Jess· Δ♥ 16:53, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments. The current subsection title "Climate change" is adequate but less than informative. Yes, the subsection under discussion is a subsection of "Environmental record," and so is a subtopic in the history of the subject of the article; the appropriate content of the subsection are diverse activities of the corporation. A corporation does not have an easily verifiable "position"; its board or executives or stockholders might but not a corporation, a legal entity. The subsection content is more broad than lobbying (attempting to sway legislators or other elected officials), and includes other activities including grassroots lobbying (attempting to sway public opinion to in turn sway legislation), advertising campaigns, executive and spokesperson statements, in-house research, carefully directed outside research funding, funding of surrogates, the corporation's own operational activities to plan for climate change, and other activities. Thanks again. Hugh (talk) 19:15, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

• This is already fourth section on this talk page discussing the same question and therefore I understand the comment by William M. Connolley in this thread. For this reason, I am copying here my last comment on this subject. For transparency, I first time edited this article already in 2007, but until the previous RfC in December where I arrived due to notification at Wikipedia:WikiProject Energy/Article alerts, my edits were mainly about sorting categories and reverting vandalism. If I remember correctly, I have not participated in any previous dispute related to the climate change. Beagel (talk) 06:45, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose the proposal above and support the current section heading per WP:PRECISE and WP:NPOV. Information in this subsection has a broader scope than just the activities to support the climate change denial. Therefore, the current heading is more precise than the proposed heading which cuts off all other aspects related to the company's attitude towards climate change, and as such, violates neutrality. Beagel (talk) 14:27, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

In what way is the current section heading more WP:NPOV than saying "support for climate change denial"? And we can edit the section to focus only on that aspect -- after all, it's already tagged as being too long and could use splitting. SageRad (talk) 16:12, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

And we can edit the section to focus only on that aspect No, we can't per WP:NPOV, more particularly per WP:CHERRY. Beagel (talk) 16:50, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Why of course we could, and should. That section was on this and should again be more strongly focused. Thus is how articles are written. There are subsections about important aspects about the article's subject. That's the norm for articles. Your objections make no sense. SageRad (talk) 17:08, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Currently this subsection covers different aspects of the complex issue about ExxonMobil attitude towards climate change. Your proposal to include only the certain aspect is a classical example of fact picking instead of finding a balanced set of information. This violates WP:NPOV. But I agree that this subsection needs further trimming. Beagel (talk) 17:22, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Wow. No it is not. It's a clss example of representing an actual thing about an actual company. It's not fact-picking. The company did this, and sources wrote about it. It's representing what is with honesty. SageRad (talk) 11:46, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

• Comment: Given WP:CSECTION, why is our section on climate change denial not a subsection of "Environmental record"? Could it not be shortened and integrated into the rest of the article?   — Jess· Δ♥ 19:18, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

• Well, indeed. And in a normal editing environment, we'd actually be simply discussing things like that and coming to agreement. Instead of which we have this rather over-heavyweight RFC method when editors don't get their way; please see my !vote above William M. Connolley (talk) 19:26, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose but.... The suggestion is not NPOV. However, simply labeling the section criticism doesn't capture the nature of what is in that section. Suggest "Opposition to Climate Science Consensus" Elmmapleoakpine (talk) 23:10, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

I'm not sure that proposal is best. It seems to be not quite the right topic. Sure, Exxon hasn't publicly agreed with the scientific consensus, but that's not what the section is about. It's about their lobbying efforts and promoting disinformation. Something like "lobbying against the climate science consensus" better sums up the section... though it's also clumsy.   — Jess· Δ♥ 00:21, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

I believe some of the lobbying and the like occurred at a time before there was a strong consensus. For that reason I don't think it is accurate to say "against consensus". Also, "against consensus" is still loaded language. At some level it is probably not possible to get away from loaded terms but we could try a bit harder. Springee (talk) 00:56, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

Exxon's dive into climate change denial began around the 1990s, and continues today. Climate research has been going on since the 1860s, and it was around the 1930s that we had evidence the Earth was already warming. A consensus was clear sometime in the 1980s. The IPCC was formed in 1988, and its first report appeared in 1990 showing a clear consensus. Exxon's promotion of climate change denial did not occur "before there was a consensus". Sources for all this can be found in this article, climate change denial, and IPCC.   — Jess· Δ♥ 04:55, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose - (I also came here from Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Maths, science, and technology‎) "Support for climate change denialism" is not neutral and should not be used as a heading. That being said, a new more concise heading should be added - along the lines of something generic like: "Climate change", so readers are not exposed to a preconceived notion from a non-neutral heading. Meatsgains (talk) 03:05, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

• Include, having due care as to how we represent the sources. ExxonMobil has wilfully suppressed evidence of the contribution of fossil fuel consumption to climate change, using tactics straight out of the tobacco industry playbook, and there are numerous reliable sources supporting this. Obviously some sources are reluctant to use the d-word, but we have no need to describe a WP:SPADE as a "non-agricultural manual earth-turning implement": if the only options on offer are skepticism and denial, we go with denial, because the term climate change skepticism is pure spin on the part of denialists and is not consistent with the technical or real-world definitions of the work skeptic - the sources clearly show that Exxon started with a conclusion and worked back. Climate change denialism is, in fact, a neutral term, just like holocaust denialism. Obviously the denialists don't like it, but Wikipedia is not censored to protect the feelings of anybody, especially not people who put commercial interests ahead of robust scientific conclusions. Guy (Help!) 14:42, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

I don't think people understand what "neutral" means in WP:NPOV

It means representing sources accurately, without biasing the representation. SageRad (talk) 11:45, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

Actually no, it doesn't. Reliable sources are free to present a POV; Wikipedia is not. It doesn't mean we present fringe viewpoints equally, nor does it mean we have to sugarcoat unpleasant topics, but it does mean we must not present reliably sourced opinions as incontrovertible fact. WP:NPOV is a cornerstone policy and what you have written above misrepresents it. --Yeti Hunter (talk) 14:47, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

NPOV doesn't mean representing the sources accurately without bias? Of course it does. Sage is right that "neutral" means something different on wikipedia than in common usage. On wikipedia, we don't mean "equal time" or "without opinion", we mean "representative of the sources". When we have a large collection of academic sources which all say the same thing, we need to represent that clearly. "Company X engaged in behavior Y" is not an opinion, and given the consensus among our highest quality sources, representing it as an opinion would contravene the very essay you quote.   — Jess· Δ♥ 19:43, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

You are absolutely right in your characterisation of NPOV, but "without bias" includes the bias inherent in the sources (even if they are reliable). What "academic sources" do you mean? The examples Sage gives at the top of this thread are all news sources, and many of them either left leaning (The Guardian) or pretty solid left (Slate) in worldview. I refer you again to the summary of WP:NPOV, with my emphasis: "Articles must not take sides, but should explain the sides, fairly and without editorial bias. This applies to both what you say and how you say it." In other words, we are free to state (accurately) that ExxonMobil has been accused of supporting climate denialism by numerous sources. However it is the very core of NPOV that Wikipedia not explicitly endorse this point of view. --Yeti Hunter (talk) 21:54, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

Incorrect. That is the very crux of "due weight". If all our high quality academic sources say that Exxon engaged in behavior X, we cannot say Exxon has been accused of engaging in behavior X, as though it is a contested viewpoint. See WP:YESPOV. We are not "taking a side" by representing the viewpoints with respect to their prominence, as our policies require.

Those source include Weart, Hamilton, Monbiot and Sample and Goldenburg, Farrell, The Royal Society, Gore, Antilla, Revkin, UCS, Banerjee, Lorenzetti, Whitman, Herrick, Mooney, Foley, Mann, Washington, Oreskes, Dunlap/McCright, Farmer/Cook, Hogan, Sinden, Begley, Jacques/Dunlap/Freeman, Brulle, Fischer. I could go on for some time... All our high quality academic sources point in one, clear, unambiguous direction. This is not "just an opinion".   — Jess· Δ♥ 22:50, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

And of course the conservative press is less likely to rat up a climate change denial operation anyway. Guy (Help!) 23:11, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

There is a difference between giving alternate views due weight and speaking with Wikipedia's own voice. Can you explain how, given the five bullet points in "explaining NPOV", that using the term "climate denier" is neutral?--Yeti Hunter (talk) 00:28, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

And also, "academic sources" are different from "sources which quote an academic" (which is what you list above). One academic (Goldenburg) slinging mud at another academic (Soon) in a left-leaning newspaper does not an NPOV source make. --Yeti Hunter (talk) 00:28, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

On further inspection, Goldenburg isn't even an academic. Why are you characterising the above as academic sources?--Yeti Hunter (talk) 00:31, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

We're not using "climate denier". We're using "climate change denial". It is consistent with NPOV because it is the preferred term among our highest quality sources. The list I provided is of reliable sources, not all of which are academic (though several are). Reading through those sources paints a clear picture, and if you come away from that list believing this is a phenomena relegated to left-wing newspapers, you are not evaluating the sourcing objectively.   — Jess· Δ♥ 02:15, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

Denial ≠ denier, that's a stretch. But even taking you at your word, many of the sources you provide above merely mention Exxon's funding of anti-consensus scientists (eg Goldenburg calls Harvard solar physicist Willie Soon a denier). You claim theses sources as support for "denial" when they actually use the term "denier". Pretty hard to then argue that they're different terms. I'm also baffled that there is a question over whether either term is NPOV - are you aware of the Associated Press's stylebook guidelines on the issue? Any variant of the term is considered pejorative, and AP thus advises avoiding it. Hardly a "preferred term."--Yeti Hunter (talk) 01:42, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

• Not in so... I agree with Yeti Hunter above, but more strongly with Guy below about split-out. When there is a persistent spit-fight (don't point at ME! I'm only here for the RFC and the topic is not my sort of thing anyway!) there is a lot to be said for stopping to take stock. The very fact that the problem doesn't go away suggests that it is of enough concern to merit its own article and only muddies the water for the main article, which is no service to the reader. Exxon is in any case too large a subject for a single article, and its associated controversies are not necessarily what readers on other Exxon-related would be looking for. Separate the topics say I and make sure that they are conveniently, appropriately, and clearly linked to in the main article. JonRichfield (talk) 06:51, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support/Yes. The edit linked is nakedly an attempt to bury the issue by shunting off ExxonMobil's history of supporting climate change skepticism into a "criticism" section - which is always a bad idea. This obscures the fact that ExxonMobil's support for climate-change-skeptical pseudoscience is notable in its own right, independent of the criticism. Furthermore the criticism has been subsequently shaved down and/or diverted elsewhere, because that's what happens to hotly disputed topics with "criticism" sections. This is tactical maneuvering and we shouldn't allow these ploys to work. The information should be restored. --Sammy1339 (talk) 17:53, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose as too POV and interpretive/negative for a header. Section headers should be completely neutral; therefore the heading as it is better. However I think too much has been removed when the spin-off article was created, leaving the section in the main article too bland and uninformative. There should be more info on the controversy in this main article; there is no Wikipedia prohibition against duplication of material across articles where warranted. Softlavender (talk) 10:37, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support without the ism. ExxonMobil are shown by sources to be a hotseat of climate change denial, which is what the topic is properly called, hence being the title of the wiki article about it. That fact is widely reported in RS and should be reported here. "Denialism" I object to on purely lexical grounds in that it's a horrible word and "denial" will do the same job far less 'Clunkily'. The content also needs to be restored. SPACKlick (talk) 09:38, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support. ExxonMobil's support for climate change denialism is notable (and actually quite transparent). I agree with Sammy1339, the information should be restored. Silvio1973 (talk) 10:14, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support ExxonMobil's highly significant activities including lobbying, grassroots lobbying, advertising, and financing of climate change denialism surrogates are clearly due weight as well-documented in vast reliable sources. Absence of a section summarizes these sources is so grossly non-neutral as to constitute a whitewash. Hugh (talk) 17:01, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

• Comment now that the article has split: Is this RfC even relevant now? The climate change section of the article was split off so does that make this whole question moot now? Springee (talk) 17:26, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

It seems relevant to me as the article still needs to address the topic, even with much of the material being split into its own article. What do you think? Should we leave it going for a while or close the RfC fairly soon? How long do RfC's typically run? SageRad (talk) 17:41, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

The default for RfC is 30 days but the RfC participants can agree to end it at any time. Beagel (talk) 18:42, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support; sources seem to indicate that EM's denial of climate change is quite transparent, therefore per NPOV the heading should say as much.  InsertCleverPhraseHere ^{InsertTalkHere}  03:08, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
• Comment I would support Climate change denial. prokaryotes (talk) 15:01, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
• Support/Yes Per SageRad and Jess. Fdssdf (talk) 07:51, 25 January 2016 (UTC)