Talk:Fedor Emelianenko

@NEDOCHAN: @Cassiopeia: @Eerie Holiday: I've pinged all of you because you were all involved in previous discussions about this exact topic.

Let's get to the point; I think the fight with Quinton Jackson at Bellator 237 should be changed from TKO to KO. I don't care about the specific technique being changed as that's a whole 'nother bag of worms, and the IRS (independent reliable sources) could not agree. What I did find though is that the majority of IRS have the result listed as KO or Knockout, which warrants the change in my opinion. The last RFC on Sherdog back in 2020 determined that sherdog was less reliable than other sources and should be used in a case by case basis. I think in this case, we side with the IRS and change it to KO. But I'd like to hear your thoughts on this (god knows we need fresh opinions on this topic).

Updated again on April 19, 2022. Cassiopeia talk 03:15, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

♡RAFAEL♡^(talk) 00:38, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

@NEDOCHAN, Eerie Holiday, and RafaelHP:

(1)I have removed some of the not reliable and streaming site source and re-formatted the table. (also adjust accordingly in Rampage talk page).

(2) First of all, User:RafaelHP, you have been involved in MMA editing in Wikipedia for sometime now and please do understand to communicate in a civil and reasonable manner and not by silly and immature replay such as "LOL" and "This is an outrage!" - see here-1 or accusing me of have agenda (in the AfD ANI talk page) which I have none or accuse other editor have vendetta of something or stating you think other editor would add the source of your unsourced claim which you well know how to add the source and also well know Wikipedia is all about verification. Further more you also know going to talk page to discuss matter civilly and work together with other editors would be the best bet and most friendly matter to resolve the issue and dont need to go to ANI and ague to death then at the end you are asked to discuss in the talk by admin after all and wasting everyone effort and time for better use to editing other pages constructively. Do understand, I am here in good will and no agenda besides contributing to Wikipedia pages as per guidelines and I am always here to help. So I hope and again, this would be the last time we need to go to ANI or response uncivilly to other editor but come together and discuss the issue in mature and polite manner.

(3) In most cases Sherdog is right and Sherdog is the bigger mma database in the world and have been around the longest and know about mma industry but if you dont have a default that would be edit, raising ANIs, warring left and right and endless discussions lead to fighting among mma editors which is what happening in this issue and many other. We would use the IRS if more IRS state different that of Sherdog and do note many IRS do not state the subset fight method (as you can see even with KO there are differences in (punch, punches, strikes, right cross, right straight, knockdown - and that would lead to another edit warring and discussion of the subset KO method), instead of contributing and working together the results would be infighting (also they dont understand Wikipedia guidelines) and this one of the reasons many mma editors left Wikipedia and not only a handful of mma editors really work together.

(3) Now back to the above issue and sources provided - since more sources indicate KO then the fight method should be KO and since no agreeable subset method I propose "punches" to align with Quinton Jackson page fight record.

(4) Pls leave comments and I will get an uninvolved editor to close the discussion one week from today if not further comment after the 7th day. Stay safe everyone and again, pls discuss matter civilly and please work together in goodwill as all of us are working to better Wikipedia pages especially in those related to MMA. I am always here to help and best. Cassiopeia talk 02:15, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

@Cassiopeia: First of all I'm a little annoyed that you straight up replaced my table with something from an old discussion, I would have appreciated you atleast asking first as that was supposed to be a piece of evidence presented by me. Second of all I don't know why you're choosing to tell me about being civil and mature, this is a mma fighter's talk page, not ANI (and for the record I created this section in the spirit of civility). Third of all I support keeping "punches" as the IRS have many differences and this is a case where the default is the best option. ♡RAFAEL♡^(talk) 02:51, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

@RafaelHP: I have removed not reliable source in Rampage talk page and you didnt mentioned anything about it. Pls provide reliable sources and not unreliable or questionable sources next time. Secondly, since you have mentioned, so I have commented in ANI regarding you. Lastly, good to know you support KO (punches). Let's wait for other editors to comment. Cassiopeia talk 03:47, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

The sources that say KO are not RS. The sources that say TKO are better quality. I aabsolutely think it should stay as sourced to Sherdog. I am not sure why mmajunkie is considered reliable and would like to see a discussion on that. This is a typically pointless discussion on changing sourced information and a waste of time. Why don't we focus on information that contradicts sources? There's a lot of it out there. I do not support faffing about with sourced information and it should stay as Sherdog sourced. There is no evidence as to the reliability of the other sources. NEDOCHAN (talk) 09:20, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

@NEDOCHAN: There was a discussion on mmajunkie along with 2 other mma sources years ago, it did not reach a consensus as two editors voted in favor of it, and two editors voted in favor against it. Maybe you could create a new discussion at the reliable sources noticeboard. ♡RAFAEL♡^(talk) 00:04, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

Or maybe we could go with the source used in the infobox that says 'fight record'.NEDOCHAN (talk) 02:11, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

But why? The RS majority does have it as KO, you simply saying that the sources are lower quality doesn't make it true. ♡RAFAEL♡^(talk) 03:50, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

@NEDOCHAN and RafaelHP: NEDOCHAN, MMA junkie is the second oldest MMA media behind Sherdog and then MMA fighting. Just as you are comparing Sydney morning Herald vs. New Strait Times, which both of the is the same quality which your take doesnt make sense. Think twice before to go to discussion for we all remember Sherdog incident since in regardless anyone who know mma or what define reliable source can vote and close the discussion. We dont want to lose half of the content in all mma pages sourced by MMA junkie. If top one and top two sources are considered questionable, then all other MMA media will do so and we will lose 95% of all mma content and pages in Wikipedia. Remember, there are source is reliable such as ESPN but it is not independent for the site has a very intimate relationship with UFC. You had vote and voice your opinion just as RafaelHP and I. Leave it to the uninvolved editor who close this discussion to close. Dont hang up with 100% for I understand your sentiment, I would prefer Sherdog, but Wikipedia guidelines, does not only based on one source. There are several discussion on this (mma record which involved admins). Let this simple besides on Rampage talk page has already vote on KO punches, we can have one page says one think and the opponent page say the other. Pls work together. Cassiopeia talk 04:04, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

@Cassiopeia: Exactly, what is the reason for mmajunkie being unreliable? It is a reputable, long standing source, and without evidence to support the contrary, I have to disregard the claim of mmajunkie being a unreliable source. ♡RAFAEL♡^(talk) 04:34, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

@RafaelHP: MMA junkie is reliable so it Sherdog and MMA Fighting. What NEDOCHAN claim made no sense. I would hope no other pages would discuss about changing the fight method again unless really super necessary, and let's all of us focus on editing MMA content, adding sources to unsourced content, make some pages to a GA status and copy editing especially for the last two for those have a good comment of English languages. Pls guys, work together and collaborating with one and other to better MMA pages and at try to comprise when it is needed. Stay safe and best. Cassiopeia talk 04:46, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

@Cassiopeia: to be clear, I am not saying that MMA junkie shouldn't be used, I am saying there is no reason to assume it somehow usurps Sherdog. I think the table above is useless, as I could very easily find more sources that say TKO than KO and vice versa. It's a poor method that is unreliable.

This entire conversation is an utter waste of time and the OP is a net negative to the project and the whole encyclopaedia.NEDOCHAN (talk) 08:19, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

@NEDOCHAN: if you can find other sources then do so, for there is not a lot of alternatives to reach a resolution. I am with you and think we should stick to Sherdog, but we can not ignore the possibility of other sources say different. I dont like it as well and think it is net negative when such discussion of change of method taking place. When the fight method is changed from that of Sherdog's, there will be other editors would change it back that of Sherdog's for no one would read the talk page prior they change it and if the method revert back to that of talk page, another editor would change it back as per Sherdog - I have witness that many times. As I said, I hope this will be the last of such discussion raise and we can go back to spend our time to expand and improve article especially both of you have good command of English that would raise MMA fighter article to GA status. Pls guys, do cooperate and pls work together in civil and helpful manner as we spent too much time on this discussions and ANI and warnings. Stay safe and best. Cassiopeia talk 10:35, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

I'm glad you support the logical and best solution to keep as sourced to Sherdog. Here are a few more sources to add:

https://www.fightmag.com.au/2019/12/29/fedor-emelianenko-knocks-out-quinton-rampage-jackson-at-bellator-japan/

https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/why-it-might-be-time-for-quinton-rampage-jackson-to-retire-from-mma-184344848.html

https://www.thescore.com/mma/news/1915841

https://cagesidepress.com/2019/12/30/bellator-japan-fedor-vs-rampage-video-highlights/

https://www.mmanytt.com/latest-news/bellator-tokyo-fedor-emelianenko-kos-rampage-jackson-retires-from-mma/

https://www.postwrestling.com/2019/12/29/bellator-237-fedor-emelianenko-stops-quinton-jackson-by-tko/

https://www.ibtimes.com/former-ufc-champ-rampage-jackson-criticized-after-tko-loss-hints-huge-comeback-2896953

https://www.dazn.com/en-GLOBAL/news/boxing/rampage-jackson-on-shannon-briggs-i-gotta-shut-his-old-ass-up/qq05bhygs5s11tyutts9v85yw

https://www.mma-core.com/events/Bellator_237/81106

https://www.wrestlinginc.com/news/2019/12/bellator-237-results-664162/

New York Post https://nypost.com/2021/06/25/fedor-emelianenko-to-return-for-bellator-moscow-event-in-russia/

https://www.fite.tv/fighter/fedor-emelianenko-the-last-emperor/80/

I could go on...NEDOCHAN (talk) 11:39, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

@NEDOCHAN: @Cassiopeia: Updated the table to include ESPN source, also NEDOCHAN mma-core is a user generated site, and postwrestling is self published. ♡RAFAEL♡^(talk) 17:27, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

Please update the table to include the other nine, then.NEDOCHAN (talk) 20:09, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

@NEDOCHAN and RafaelHP: NEDOCHAN, adding your sources except for postwrestling, mma-core and New York Post (not reliable). RafaelHP, ESPN can be used here as this is not UFC fight and it was back in 2019 in Japan Bellator event. As per the above, we have to for TKO and subset propose as (punches). After the closing of this discussion, both Emelianenko and Rampage fight record will change and reflect the same fight method. Cassiopeia talk 03:15, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

Hello, since that is no new info coming in, as per table indicated, we will go by TKO and subset propose as (punches) and will get an uninvloed editor to close the discussion. Cassiopeia talk 08:26, 25 April 2022 (UTC)