Talk:Ga'aton

There obviously are some mixups here. See Morris, 2004, p. 380, where he writes that Kibbutz Ga'aton was established 8 October (1948). It is also listed as his settlement # 30, see User:Huldra/Morris2-list. This is in agreement with Khalidi, 1992, p. 19, who states under Khirbat Jiddin: “The settlement of Ga'ton (170/268) was built on village land in October 1948”. Even Jewish Virtual Library say so

…alas, Ga'aton had a population of 140, all Jews, in 1945.^[1]

Also see User_talk:Ynhockey#Hurvat_Ga.27aton

I suspect that the 1945 data is from 1685/2686, then in 1948, it moved about 1-2 km east (closer to Khirbat Jiddin land). According to this wordpress blog, the building were used by the Sursuks; certainly looks similar to other Sursuk buildings. Huldra (talk) 20:21, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

Sursuk? Typical "absentee landlords". Would clarify a few things.Arminden (talk) 02:45, 7 December 2015 (UTC)ArmindenArminden (talk) 02:45, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Regarding Khirbat Jiddin, Ga'aton, Yehiam, Yehi'am Fortress National Park.

The area which includes the Israeli kibbutzim of Ga'aton and Yehiam, was populated before 1948 by the Arab as-Suwaytat Bedouin tribe. That is obvious from all good sources, the 1596 census, Victor Guérin (1875), the Survey of Western Palestine and its map (1872–1877), the 1922 census of Palestine. What seems equally clear is that two sites mentioned in connection with the as-Suwaytat, Khirbat Jiddin (the ruins after which it was named are now part of Yehiam) and Ja'tun/Ja'atun (which was situated at? or near? the site of today's Ga'aton), were never populated by large numbers of Arabs, in one case just 19 (Khirbat Jiddin in 1922 census). Such numbers are rather indicative of Bedouin encampments, or of some form of minor hamlets. Additionally, the apparently well-sourced WP articles indicate that the Juddin/Yehiam castle ruins were already either taken over, or at least in use as a military training camp by a Zionist group, by November 1946; the ruined castle was then fortified and held by the Jewish group against a besieging force of non-local Arab fighters for several months at the beginning of 1948. So where were the Bedouin during all this time (1946-48)? Not a rhetorical question, but a logical one w/o answer so far. Possible answer: as seminomadic herdsmen, they used the site only seasonally, the Jewish group and later kibbutz took over the ruins and surrounding lands, most likely after buying the land from absentee landlord. Often the case. Would mean: no "depopulation" after 1948 military victory by Israel. Needs clarifying.

The area of cultivable land held by Arabs (and Jews) in 1922 is also insignificant, some 20 vs. 30 dunams each. Again, on Arab side it's more indicative of (semi)nomads doing a bit of farming "on the go". The fluid borders between settled and (semi)nomadic is well known in the region, maybe the larger agric. output of 1596 marks a high point in settled habitation, while the war waged by Ibrahim Pasha against the so-called Peasants' revolt in Palestine might have destroyed the hamlet.

Also, if, as it seems, Kh. Jiddin was NOT A VILLAGE, it could hardly have held property at Ja'atun. The TRIBE of the Suweitat/as-Suwaytat, YES, but not a dubious "khirbet" encampment. To be clarified: WHO owned the land in 46, 48? Were the Bedouin settled or (semi)nomadic? Many villages were indeed depopulated, however this one needs closer looking into.

More info: even PalestineRemembered.com, most certainly quoting from Khalidi, gives 55 dunams of cultivable land vs. over 7500 (!) non-cult. for Kh. Jiddin! The 1945 census, which came out three years before the establishment of Kibbutz Ga'aton and also one year before Kibbutz Yehi'am's, states that the lands of Khirbat Jiddin were owned to a slightly higher degree by Arabs than by Jews (4,238 vs. 3,349 dunams), with the vast majority of the land being non-cultivable or at least uncultivated (7,533 dunams). Of the less than 1% of cultivable/cultivated land, 22 dunams were tended by Arabs and 32 by Jews.Arminden (talk) 02:45, 7 December 2015 (UTC)ArmindenArminden (talk) 02:45, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Zero0000 wrote: "There were many bedouin living in and around the [Judin/Jiddin/Yehiam] castle ruins until 1948. Both Morris and Khalidi regard that as sufficient to list it as a depopulated village."

Does anyone have a good source on what "Bedouin living in an area" used to mean in the 1920s-40s in the Galilee? How nomadic, how sedentary, did they have different seasonal (winter & summer) encampments, only tents or also houses, etc., etc.? Otherwise, we're repeating empty phrases. Traditional Bedouin tribes used to roam over very large tracts of land, which no other tribe could use without using force; no modern state though, Jordan for instance included, does accept that as "real estate property" in the modern sense.Arminden (talk) 14:56, 7 December 2015 (UTC)ArmindenArminden (talk) 14:56, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Arminden: could we please have this discussion on one talk-page, not spread over many? Also, do you read Hebrew? If so, what does the sign here say? Also what does the Hebrew article here say? From google.translate it looks as if it was the home of Raymonda Tawils father? It seems that A: Ga'aton existed as a Jewish settlement, in 1945, (probably at Horvat Ga'aton?), but was resettled i 1948, closer to Kh. Jiddin land. Huldra (talk) 21:38, 7 December 2015 (UTC)