Talk:Ganges/Archive 7

Please show mahit fans on the rivier 2409:4042:2C8B:2710:0:0:9349:E90F (talk) 10:49, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

Someone has recently changed the article to use Ganga as the main name. I could not simply revert due to many intervening edits. I have made a start at fixing this, but do not have enough time to finish it right now. I am asking for other editors to continue the corrections, starting with the History section. --Khajidha (talk) 16:43, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

I think I have gotten this taken care of now. I left direct references to the goddess, uses of "ganga" as a component of larger names, and direct quotations and such alone. --Khajidha (talk) 14:41, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

I have started updating the name to “Ganga” , irrespective whether references to any historic article or publishing “Ganges” is not the correct name of the river. Someone in past stating an incorrect name/pronunciation doesn’t mean we have to stick with it. KShukal (talk) 13:32, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Same applies to “Shiv” (not “Shiva”), “Pandav” (not “Pandava”), “Dharm” (not “Dharma”), “Karm” (not “Karma”) and many more such misspelled Sanskrit words. Appreciate if any user or Wikipedia provide assistance in cleaning these rather long standing misspelling which will eventually correct the mispronunciations. KShukal (talk) 13:38, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

I am very confused as to why the name is not "Ganga" ? I just don't understand. I assume good faith, but many of the arguments I am reading from posters defending the use of the term "Ganges" seem to fall flat. For example, India has formalized that the city of "Mumbai" be called "Mumbai" and not Bombay. The Wikipedia page reflects this change, even if in Pop culture for the west, Bombay is still the predominant term, which it is. I am simply flummoxed as to why the official name on this site is Ganges? It has been codified by the Indian government to be said as Ganga. What more is needed? The name is what it is. If a person says their name is "X", but many people know this person by name "Y", there seemingly is not a clear demarcation of which name should be used to indicate the subjectivity of the person in question, at least philosophically. But Wikipedia should weigh both of these carefully. In this case it seems that there is enough codification and justification to use the word "Ganga". In other cases, the popular term is best used, such as "Magic Johnson", but the key distinction between that example and this one is that Magic Johnson is not disputing the fact that he happily goes by "Magic" and not his real name Earvin. Thelovingllama (talk) 18:00, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

"even if in Pop culture for the west, Bombay is still the predominant term..." This is the thing, it isn't. "Mumbai" is the common name in the West. If anything, "Bombay" is far more common in India. Dāsānudāsa (talk) 16:49, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

The name is Ganga and it is not changed since the history of this country existed. The government itself show it by tha name of Ganga as its authentic name. You can do some research on it. My home is just 1 km range from Ganga but I have never heard a single soul saying it "Ganges". I also have done some research as in Bangladesh it is also called the Ganga. So calling "Ganges" for the convince of speaking is truly misleading and false information. Moreover the the greek point of view is null and void as the name river is given by the locals not the foreign visitors visiting any country, it is simple logic. Do what is right and change the name of "Ganges" to its real name "Ganga". Adichoudhary123456 (talk) 04:18, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

UNSC- A/RES/76/L.22/Rev.1 (10 November 2021). Name change to Ganga is welcomed and needed. Kindly don't violate UNGA consensus on Rights to Indigenous Peoples. If the indigenous of India term it Ganga, its Ganga for you and me. Historically speaking, it became Ganges only for convenience to pronounce, for British, that doesn't cause official name change. Official use can be found in india.gov.in, nmcg.nic.in, mppcb.in further more in wwf.org.UK and thethirdpole.net. A notable user Fowler&fowler shall refrain from "unconstructive edits" or "disruptive edits" (as the latter acknowledged) to revert Ganga to Ganges. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bitter Writer (talk • contribs) 10:22, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Neither the Indian government nor the UN has any power over Wikipedia or English language usage. And "official" is pretty much meaningless when it comes to English usage, as there is no organization with the power to control it. --Khajidha (talk) 18:35, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

A discussion on this matter has just been closed - see lower down. The change won't be made. Johnbod (talk) 19:15, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Then why is it bothering you, Khajidha? Johnbod please refer Sanjeet's paper - see higher up - as to why this is troublesome. The below discussion puts an argument people unaware of name Ganga outside India, one may argue we dont know a local hero's name outside regional territory yet their name cant be changed here. Do not delete name over "postcolonial mindset" (Sanjeet's paper publish) rather aim at egalitarian principle of tolerance...over...a...name— Preceding unsigned comment added by Bitter Writer (talk • contribs) 08:20, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

Reply to Fowler&fowler: "Government's websites are of little value in establishing reliability."

I have to disagree yet I see you mistrust the above sources I've mentioned, so I will be mentioning far more legitimate ones based on Wiki's citations, given in point 2 below. You've also asked for citation use to change to Ganga but given we have those citations for Ganges, we continue using Ganges. Drawing from your words, Ganges being official isnt cited appropriately on the Wikipage- citation [5] reads (a) recommendation (b) FOR USE OF BRITISH GOVERNMENT, (a government source) nor is this for Universal use, citation [6] hyperlink has clearly stated it is used as such through LCSH rule which the Wikipage doesnt and cant follow (LCSH is only for library topic division of books and that was their only mandate written) and this is used only to INDICATE topics of the actual library resources and not officially change names Eg: Italy -> Mathematical models indicates what one can find in section/topic Italy inside the library offline/online when they search vice versa- it doesnt mean Math only belongs to Italy, there is also Government policy -> Italy which you can understand. Nonetheless, relying on this library is an issue:

US Library of Congress (which means for serving the US Congress) is only for Official Use and NOT National Library of USA [331dot-> this is "de facto" NOT "de jure" i.e not national], Wiki/other sources can distinguish official vs national clearly Eg: Indian official languages. LOC themselves state their "collections" which havent included many natural language terms are for Congress use. Albeit they do state- the library welcomes scholars from across the country to freely use its services (in this case Topic name, that is where Ganges was from in citation 6). However, India does seem to have a national library who's national repository only recognises Ganga and not once for Ganges. From your opinion, Govt source still isnt reliable, but both citation 5 and 6 are from Govt sources which are flexible and for limited usage- 5 from British, 6 from Legislative branch of USA. I hope I have drawn your attention and I assume you abide this and follow "Ganga" now as i've only shown the point you've relied upon to in fact support "Ganga". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bitter Writer (talk • contribs) 17:10, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

New edits by Fowler&fowler to possibly make his case stronger on name Ganges not Ganga includes using research papers as citations. These are what lack credibility. Those papers he cited albeit were written by Ashok Swain, a notable UNESCO member you can look up but wasnt he part of a controversy he was proven wrong in just this year? Fowler time to time refuses to rationally make choices on this page. It's unclear as to what motivates him. I've shown how his earlier logic he pivoted around was proving him wrong, now he shifts to this rather than correcting himself.

Ashok Swain unfortunately isnt reliable- he wants a cold war b/w China & US to happen (his words, not mine), he's a proven fake news peddler over communal and business issues spotted in Shailesh Shah v State of Gujarat case and an "accused" 'eminent hatemonger', 'hinduphobe' (when he targeted a NASA intern girl). I'm not trying to target him, im concerned only about how this man's paper seemed reliable. After all, its a research paper. And why didnt you just correct yourself when I proved you wrong using only facts and never opinions- see bold text above. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bitter Writer (talk • contribs) 10:37, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

Fun fact- Indian Supreme Court makes use for Ganga not Ganges. This can be seen in infamous M C Mehta v UoI case under Justice Venkataramiah, E.S. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bitter Writer (talk • contribs) 10:55, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

Absolutely none of this has anything to do with WP:COMMONNAME, which is the relevant policy here (when claiming, as @Bitter Writer: and others have) that "Ganga" is the name most used for this river in English. Dāsānudāsa (talk) 11:05, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

Thats precisely why its under Fun Fact. Why dont u address the other points appropriately and quit complaining? Another user has already pointed out how Ganga is used more commonly than Ganges which adds WP:due weight and WP:Tertiary. Also, Google Ngram shows how Ganga use is much higher today, granted it was less before and Ganges was higher but Wiki's COMMONNAME indicates contemporary use and not throughout history. And where Ganges is used in international documents, Ganga is kept there too shows wider acceptance Eg: wwf.org.UK and thethirdpole.net. But ignoring this since last line isnt under Commonname, Ganga has become the most common out of the two as provided by that user and Google data- scroll down below for that user's points (I lost it, but basically how many searches you find by Ganga vs Ganges, former has multiple more which adds more weight.)

Btw, the idea for using Google's Ngram came from you. Thank you. But I would invite you to react to my non-fun fact points. Constructive discussion, consensual editing will only happen when both sides are rational. Albeit me pushing for this Ive clearly separated facts, opinions and what I understand Wiki cant make use. I expect this rationality from you, if you are ready to change to Ganga when factually proven wrong and within Wiki rules please continue. Else you may quit discussing this.

@Fowler&fowler: has shown the exact opposite, ie that Ganges is the common name in English, below (see Talk:Ganges#reviving discussion for Page name to be changed to Ganga with ganges redirect to it). I see you didn't use your 48-hour ban from this page to do some useful editing elsewhere. Could it be that you're a Single-purpose account? Dāsānudāsa (talk) 11:36, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

So that only levels the field. Im not sure how he got the numbers but what he's done is use "any time" which ive explained to you just now how contemporary use is what we need- not 1800s, 1900s. And NGram shows how Ganges used in books has become significantly lower than Ganga used in books (including novels, academic publishers, encyclopedias, dictionaries) No im not single use account. Ive been on other pages for hours and I didnt find any need to edit them. So yes ive explored other places. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bitter Writer (talk • contribs) 11:51, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

I don't see how you get "levels the field", much less that Ganga is more common. Here's an ngram looking only at the period from 2000 to 2019: https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Ganges%2CGanga&year_start=2000&year_end=2019&corpus=26&smoothing=0&case_insensitive=true --Khajidha (talk) 18:30, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

hmm, at least i'd accept im wrong, i checked individually which seemed like Ganga was used more than Ganges. Just like the pages Allahabad-Prayagraj and Mumbai-Bombay, i'll write Ganges, officially called Ganga ^[1]. Im down for this final change, NGRAM shows significant use of both with very less differences. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bitter Writer (talk • contribs) 05:03, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

I'm not, seeing as the Ganges hasn't been 'officially' renamed by the government like Bombay, Madras, Calcutta, etc. (that I know of), so to link to List of renamed places in India isn't correct in this case. Unless you can find a source that says it has. Dāsānudāsa (talk) 07:04, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

I don't believe that changes should be made without discussion in this case. But, in my opinion, Ganga is the proper name. Indian English is English, too. According Wikipedia Manual of Style: National Varieties of English, "If there is a strong relationship to a specific region or dialect, use that dialect". The Ganga is in India, so it makes more sense to follow Indian English than British English. This is an English article, so we use the English, and not the Hindi name. But Ganga is English, it is Indian English. Furthermore, it is the official name of the river. To insist that the main name is "Ganges" astonishes and dismays me.
As for those referencing WP:COMMONNAME, "Ganga" is the common name in India. It is also a more consistent name with other articles. See Ganga (goddess), Ganga Action Plan, Ganga Mahasabha, and National Ganga River Basin Authority.
I might add the point that search "Ganga" has about 1,490,000,000 results, while search "Ganges" has about 50,200,000 results. Talib1101 (talk) 22:57, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Beyond the WP policies about naming that have been addressed above, the Ganges is a transboundary river of South Asia that flows through India and Bangladesh. It is called Ganga in India and Padma in Bangladesh. Please read the many citations in the lead. The river is not India's alone to claim ownership rights over its name. In Bangladeshi English (as I've shown somewhere) Ganges is the majority usage for the entire river, not Ganga. This is also not an article about the river lopped off at the Farakka barrage, where India (controversially) diverts much of the river's water by a feeder canal to the Hooghly (which is otherwise unconnected to the Ganges) We do use "Ganga" for the goddess, and for the various Indian government programs at alleviating the distress in India's stretch of the river to both humans and animals. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:14, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

The river is NOT called Ganges. It’s only and real and true name is: Ganga. This is the only name it should be known as - the river is so sacred and significant, it’s insulting to change the name just to suit the speech of western speakers, as the colonisers changed the name. This is the name according to Indian culture and hence should not be changed. This is whitewashing!Any place or river’s name in a western country has not been changed to suit the accessibility or pronunciation of other people, so why should it be done for Bharat’s river. It’s the name given by the European colonists, not India; it’s never ever been known as ‘Ganges’ so why should India keep the name given by the colonisers for the sake of THEIR easy pronunciation. India has got independence, so so why should these names be kept, let the real name be known. And the argument that it’s known is Ganga in India, is such a weak argument as it’s known predominantly and worldwide as Ganges (on a global scale has more impact) ;this is spreading the wrong information as people will only know it as Ganges (which is not its name, and the name is very important, remembering the value if it being one the holiest rivers in Bharat). Most non-Indians have never even heard of Ganga (and I know this from personal experience) as they only know ‘Ganges’ that’s why it’s so important that the correct name is only there. It’s my humble request to please change the name to Ganga and allow these changes permanently. Also, it should be added to the history section, that the real name of the river is Ganga; Ganges is not the correct name and was changed to dominate over Indian culture. This is not okay, the true name should be written and the real truth needs to be informed and if you keep reverting it back to the name given by colonisers, the reality will not be known. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.12.14.215 (talk) 17:45, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

No one is stopping you calling it "Ganga", but the article title should reflect common English usage, per WP:COMMONNAME. Wikipedia reflects actual usage, it doesn't try to influence it. Dāsānudāsa (talk) 09:07, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Also, the argument that "[a]ny place or river’s name in a western country has not been changed to suit the accessibility or pronunciation of other people" is clearly not true.

For example:

इंगलैंड

Ingalaind

थेम्स

Thems

लंडन

Landan

Etc., etc. Dāsānudāsa (talk) 09:10, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

But if the English usage name is anglicised, then it must be reverted to the original name. And it’s part of the process of removing the signs of the colonial past, anglicised names should be officially discouraged and reverted to its original name. And it’s not about a single person calling it, it’s making sure the whole world globally knows it’s real name. It’s such a weak point to say it should be English usage, when the word isn’t English itself, why change the words? Accept the real, original name and keep it as only that globally, not for one person, one country, it’s a global impact of having the true name. And your examples are not what I mean; I’m saying no western country has globally changed the name of any place of theirs to due the speech of other people. Your examples are how certain people call them, not the world nor is it globally known or written in books with those name, but ‘Ganges’ is. 1AB 111 (talk) 16:11, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

WP:RGW Summer ^talk 14:33, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello. Is there another page going more into detail about geography like the Ganges Valley and other places? Because I think they could use more elaborating on, given their importance.

Currently, Ganges Valley redirects to Gangaridai, which I think is unnecessarily confusing for readers looking for info about one of the most important locales in history. GoutComplex (talk) 16:55, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Indo-Gangetic Plain for one. I've changed the redirects (both capa) to that. Johnbod (talk) 17:43, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

I wonder of Ganges Basin might not be better. Punjab, for example, is not in the Ganges valley. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:27, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Adjacent and nested sets of brackets are quite clunky and usually avoided on the encyclopedia. I suggest:

The Ganges (/ˈɡændʒiːz/ GAN-jeez), also known in India as the Ganga (/ˈɡʌŋɡɑː/ GUNG-ah) and in Bangladesh as the Padma (/ˈpʌdmə/ PUD-mə), is a trans-boundary river of Asia which flows through India and Bangladesh.

This is certainly within bounds for the prolixity of the lead sentence, but wouldn't mind condensing the wording slightly. The local names could be kept within one set of brackets, but then we probably shouldn't have nested sets for the IPA and respelling. Alternatively, could we perhaps safely omit those pronunciations, since they're fairly intuitive to unfamiliar readers? — RAVENPVFF · talk · 10:02, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

It is not just the prolixity, which we can argue about, but due weight. By freeing the local usage from its parenthesis, we give it prominence in the lead sentence. The usage is really incidental to a distilled encyclopedic summary of the river.

Also, without the parenthesis, "India" and "Bangladesh" become mildly repetitive, leading a reader to wonder, "Yeah, we already know it flows through India and Bangladesh."

There is a third issue. Indians use "Ganga" for the river along its whole course; that is, in the lower Ganges valley, they continue to use it both for main river which flows through Bangladesh and an artificial channel which diverts half the rivers water into Indian West Bengal. Bangladeshis use it only for their stretch of the river; Bangladeshi English-languages sources prefer Ganges to Ganga for the whole river. I fear your edit might become more grist for the India-POV mill for changing the page name to "Ganga."

We had considered all these issues, when we wrote the lead sentence. The one change that I think should be made is to flip the four citations: bring the last two (the British government and Library of Congress usage, which is tertiary) forward; the other two are secondary sources, and don't address due weight. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:48, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Actually, I take back that last proposal. Probably best to let those four sleeping dogs lie. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:51, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Point taken. Would you still consent to combining the brackets, like so?

The Ganges (/ˈɡændʒiːz/ GAN-jeez; in India: Ganga, /ˈɡʌŋɡɑː/ GUNG-ah; in Bangladesh: Padma, /ˈpʌdmə/ PUD-mə) is a trans-boundary river of Asia which flows through India and Bangladesh.

The only change here is cleaner punctuation; the words are exactly the same. — RAVENPVFF · talk · 15:41, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Apologies, @Ravenpuff: did not see your post. Yes, your proposed edit is fine. Thank you. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:45, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

special:diff/1174837358 — for some reason a certain someone thinks that it's a good idea to avoid participating in discussions and blindly revert anything they don't like. Summer ^talk 16:58, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

See the section above. The same issue had arisen there. The problem is that in India the whole river, from headwaters to mouth, is called Ganga. In Bangladesh, only the segment of the main stem flowing through it is called Padma. In English-language sources in BD, the preferred name for the whole river is "Ganges." In other words, "the local name along the course of the river changes from Ganga to Padma at the border. Thus, when we say, "in India: Ganga; in BD, Padma," we mean "locally: in India, Ganga; in BD Padma." or "locally, "Ganga," in India; "Padma," in BD" No more description is required. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 04:06, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

According to Wikipedia's guideline WP:NOINDICSCRIPT , for Hinduism-related articles, the use of Indic languages is permitted. Therefore, for topics such as the The Ganges, which is related to Hinduism, the use of Indic languages is acceptable. So, I propose to add this information.

TheDarkKnight433 (talk) 01:32, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

No. This is an article about a geographical feature, a river. Articles 'related to Hinduism' are directly about religion. MrOllie (talk) 01:33, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

You are just arguing without facts and sources. If you have source to claim your statement then attach it.

https://www.britannica.com/question/Why-is-the-Ganges-River-considered-holy-in-Hinduism

This source clearly mentions that it's directly related to Hinduism. So, there is no point of further discussion. TheDarkKnight433 (talk) 01:49, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

You have to actually convince people to support your changes somehow, and simply declaring that discussion is at an end will not do so. MrOllie (talk) 01:59, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

You tell what else do you need to get convinced. Isn't this enough? You were saying its not related to Hinduism and I proved it, that it is. TheDarkKnight433 (talk) 02:02, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

The article would have to be directly about Hinduism to qualify for the exception. A tenuous relationship is not sufficient. MrOllie (talk) 02:38, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

It is directly related. I literally attached a source to prove this claim. If you don't have knowledge about this topic, please refrain yourself from such topics. Thank you! TheDarkKnight433 (talk) 02:45, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Ipse dixit. Also, making personal attacks about other people's level of knowledge will not cause others to support your proposals. MrOllie (talk) 02:46, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

I have to agree that saying this article is "about Hinudism" would be too much of a stretch. I wasn't around when the original decision was handed down, but it looks like there was a sort of knock-down fight about this issue that ended with a quite blanket avoidance of adding Indic scripts. To change that, you'd need to re-open the issue generally and not make weak arguments that one or another article which can be related to Hinduism, but not all that directly, is somehow not subject to the policy. Please drop this quest. — jmcgnh^{(talk) (contribs)} 03:28, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Adding Indic language next to "The Ganges" would be incredibly helpful and beneficial for millions of people in India. The source also emphasizes the river's immense significance in Hinduism. I fail to grasp why the addition of just two words, which could benefit so many people, is being contested. TheDarkKnight433 (talk) 10:16, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

@Jmcgnh:, That's basically my thought on this as well. An article that would be fall into the exception would be one that is primarily focused on Hinduism. It's not intended to be a broad exception, and this would be pushing it to way beyond where it was intended.

And the OP has been blocked as a sock, so fairly moot discussion. Ravensfire (talk) 00:47, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Under the Geology section, after "The Indo-Gangetic Plain is geologically known as a foredeep or foreland basin.[36]" I suggest to add "The basin is tectonically active and has the potential to generate large earthquakes". The reference for this statement is here: https://www.nature.com/articles/ngeo2760

Under the Hydrology section, before "Before the late 12th century the Bhagirathi-Hooghly distributary was the main channel of the Ganges and the Padma was only a minor spill-channel", I propose to add. "A large, M 7-8 earthquake at 500 BCE caused the Ganges River to abruptly abandon its former course in the central delta". The reference for this statement is here: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-024-47786-4 80.61.14.71 (talk) 07:46, 19 June 2024 (UTC)