Talk:Pi Kappa Alpha

Stewart "left after 6 months"

The highlighted segment below has been removed from the article. Pi Kappa Alpha confirms that Stewart is currently an alumnus member of the fraternity in good standing. Therefore, I would characterize the highlighted segment as misleading and, moreover, not encyclopedic and irrelevant. I have removed it and included it here for discussion per content deletion guidelines in accordence with the policies Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not and Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons.

• Jon Stewart - actor, Daily Show Host (left after 6 months, purportedly due to hazing-related events)^[1]

67.100.185.234 05:18, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

• Keep - It is a sourced statement showing that he disassociates himself with the fraternity even though they still recognize him as a brother. I am putting it back up because it is encyclopedic as well as sourced. If this edit is reverted I will be contacting an administrator to set semi-protection for the page because there have been way too many revert wars on this little section. Acidskater 05:38, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

This is not intended to be a straw poll so there is no reason to vote to keep or not. The fact of the matter is that it is not encyclopedic because the section is a list of members. The specific circumstances of Stewart's relationship with the fraternity is not relevant to his being a member. The place for such information is the article Jon Stewart. The purpose of this discussion is to determine whether there is an overriding reason to include the information despite its non-encyclopedic nature. Furthermore, there is no revert war in progress. Rather, you simply disagree with my reasoning per your argument above. I would caution you about seeking administrative involvement, however, as you have violated 3RR on this article (I have no intention of seeking anyone's involvement on the matter). Hopefully, we will have comments from other interested parties shortly. 67.100.185.234 06:36, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

The cited source is questionable since a primary source directly contradicts it. It also makes no mention of Stewart disassociating as you have suggested, nor does any other source I am able to find. 67.100.185.234 06:39, 15 May 2007 (UTC)|

There has been a revert war and you said it yourself (3RR means 3 Revert Rule, even though I had 2 reverts in this particular matter). This statement is needed because while he may be considered a brother still he does not associate himself with the Pi Kappa Alpha. To me this statement follows WP:NOT and WP:LIVING, so in order for it to be deleted you need to prove why it doesn't fit them. Acidskater 06:51, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

By your reasoning, the information should be included in the article on Stewart and not on this article. I agree with that assessment. Aside from the fact that the sources are contradictory and make no mention of disassociation at all, I do not find how Stewart's personal feelings about the fraternity and his individually determined relationship with it has encyclopedic relevance in a list of its members. It is comparable in such relevance to stating that one member was a very active brother while another joined it just for the social scene benefits. What specific language in the policies you've cited do you contend the inclusion follows? 67.100.185.234 06:59, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm just gonna weigh in and say that AcidSkater's reasoning seems perfectly valid to me and I don't understand how you can't comprehend it. Despite what Pika may want to claim, Jon Stewart deactivated from the brotherhood and distanced himself from the fraternity. He did not stay active, he did not graduate as a Pika, he does not consider himself a brother. Thus, Pika is only hanging on to him for the publicity. What's the problem in the logic that the list should note the fact that there is a dispute in his status? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.8.1.2 (talk) 12:46, 15 May 2007 (UTC).

Since you were previously involved in edit warring with the intent to remove Stewart from the list completely several times, it's not a surprise to find this is your position on the matter. That said, I have no problem at all comprehending AcidSkater's argument. My contention is that the information should be properly included in the biographical article on Stewart and not in a list of the fraternity's members since he is considered, without challenge, a member in good standing. There is no source that confirms either an actual disassociation or a want to do so by Stewart. The source cited (and the many like it that appear in a Google search) are tertiary sources, which are themselves thrown into question by contradiction from a primary source (Pi Kappa Alpha Fraternity), none of which make any mention of a disassociation at all. I have no doubt that some statement or acts gave rise to the notion that Stewart "left after 6 months," but no verifiable information has been cited to that end. Again, more importantly, such information would have its place in the Jon Stewart article, not the Pi Kappa Alpha article's list of prominent members; no more here than, as I wrote, noting that a particular member was either very active or active only in the fraternity's social scene. 67.100.185.234 16:33, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Do you fail to comprehend the simple fact that Pika has nothing to lose by claiming this man as a brother? If I had a transcript of the part of his speech at William and Mary where he told a Pika brother, "Fuck off, you're no brother of mine," I would gladly cite it right now. However, there is no said transcript. I realize that the Stewart article could discuss his disassociation, but by claiming him an out right brother on the list, you are providing false information to the circumstances of his status in the fraternity. As this site serves to perform an encyclopedic function, blatant falsehoods in articles should not be permitted. Or do you advocate lying in the Wikipedia pages? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by StrandedKSig (talk • contribs) 15:25, 16 May 2007 (UTC).

PiKA has nothing to lose by claiming him as a brother (except perhaps some dignity, depending on your perspective) and, no, I don't fail to comprehend anything. While I suggest you review Wikipedia's civility program, the fact of the matter is that Stewart did become a brother of the fraternity. He did become an alumnus member of the fraternity by graduation and never disassociating from the fraternity. As no such transcript, nor apparently any record whatsoever, of any conversation like the one you have described exists, there's no reason to even think that Stewart actually said such a thing. Any discussion of his dissatisfaction with the fraternity should be discussed in his article and not here. 67.100.185.234 02:34, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Has this issue finally resolved itself? I haven't seen anything here in over a week, and am still curious. Jmlk17 09:01, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it has, but it seems 70.61.253.50 has taken it out as well as other information. I will be putting that information back into the list. I think a mediation may be helpful as well. Acidskater 06:28, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Alright. I appreciate the help Acid. Jmlk17 09:01, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Mediation re; Jon Stewart?

Does anyone think we should perhaps bring in a mediation on this? I'm probably going to somewhat distance myself from this argument for the one key fact: I'm a Pike. I must admit that I have researched this entire issue, and I keep finding more and more information that is contrary to each side. I can only find "facts" about certain key parts, and I no longer am convinced of either side. I would appreciate it if someone could comment on a possible mediation on this whole issue. Thanks. Jmlk17 18:22, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I'd be fine with mediation. I was trying to let the issue just dissipate but I have no idea why the rules of fact-based information need to be superceded simply because it's a Greek Rush page. I'm not trying to point fingers because the vast majority of the Pikes have been pretty fair about it, but I don't think it's fair that Jon Stewart be listed without some sort of asterisk or disclaimer. Jimmy Buffet, for example, was listed as a Sigma Pi pledge at Auburn, but it's noted that he later went on to pledge and initiate into Kappa Sigma at Southern Mississippi. Couldn't the same thing be done for Jon? StrandedKSig 14:10, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

After going over everything it seems a mediation really isn't required. This fact is cited and as it pertains to Pi Kappa Alpha it should stay. The editors disputing the fact being kept in the page were unregistered users and they have seemed to let it go. If they were to come back and complain more then a mediation would need to take place, but it seems that all registered users that have contributed to this dispute have all taken the same side of keeping the fact as long as it is cited, which has been now for sometime. Acidskater 14:48, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry that you guys are so desperate to include him among your ranks that you're going against documented fact that he left the fraternity. I thought we were supposed to treat the Greek pages as if they WEREN'T rush pages and use facts and not opinions in these pages. It's really sad that corners are cut and special treatment is doled out as long as it makes a long-term contributor look better. Really sad, indeed. StrandedKSig 16:49, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

As per WP:NPOV, WP:NOT, and WP:CITE this statement will stay. As Jon Stewart is a notable living person and is included among notable alumni for Pi Kappa Alpha through it's listings he will stay in the list. Also as Stewart disassociating himself from Pi Kappa Alpha is a cited claim it shall stay as well. This is not a rush brochure or a page to bash Pi Kappa Alpha, this is an encyclopedic page which states facts. The fact is Stewart is considered a brother of Pi Kappa Alpha but dissassociates himself from it. Acidskater 20:11, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't see any kind of notation on the article that Stewart's standing with the fraternity has been called into question or that his disappointment in the fraternity has been cited. You said that would stay, but all the article shows is that Jon Stewart continues to be a brother in good standing. Screw it, Pika's a waste of time - always has been, always will be. StrandedKSig 15:17, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Why would anyone waste time wanting to be a Pike? I was simply pointing out the legacy of Pika - lying and then trying to cover it up. Pathetic...StrandedKSig 19:18, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

This conversation full of incivility and trash-talking needs to stop...now. If you guys want/wish to actually TALK as the section conveys, then feel more than free to do so. If you want to trash-talk and serve no purpose, than go to another website. Jmlk17 19:42, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

A cite to the San Francisco Chronicle that is making the rounds is bogus. The claim is Stewart was a member for 6 months and left because he did not agree with hazing. However, everywhere that claim is made uses the exact same cite to the same article in exactly the same way (the cite is written identically an does not contain a link). The actual article, available online, says nothing of the sort. It does not mention Pi Kappa Alpha at all. The frat's official website says Stewart was a member, and so should we. - SummerPhD (talk) 16:30, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

In agreement with the preceding comment, I have gone ahead and added John Stewart to the list of notable members of Pi Kappa Alpha. If the national organization is comfortable with identifying him as a notable alumni, I see no reason that we should not do the same. Until the point at which someone can show that John Stewart is NOT an alumni of Pi Kappa Alpha, his listing will remain. Dylanstaley (talk) 20:26, 2 September 2011 (UTC)