On the 10th of January 2015, I made an edit to the Wasim plot line to remove the word cleric since there is no mention or hint that the man is a cleric in the movie. Aside from the fact that there is no traditional clergy in Islam, there isn't even a suggestion that the character is a learned scholar from an institution such as Al-Azhar or similar.
This edit was reverted soon after by Viriditas stating that all the secondary sources refer to him as a cleric.
What secondary sources are these? Could you please point me in their direction? Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by The new mr (talk • contribs) 12:32, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
- How about every RS on the subject? Viriditas (talk) 06:52, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- I have checked every reference (a lot of 404s by the way) and absolutely none of them refer to him as a cleric. The credits at the end of the movie and on imdb don't mention that he is a cleric. The only reference to a cleric anywhere in any of the sources was an interview with the writer and director Stephen Gaghan [1] where he refers to another character in the film as a cleric where he says "You can cut from a radical cleric addressing disaffected young people to a massive yacht in the Mediterranean. There is a lot of power in those juxtapositions." Even in this case, it shows a misunderstanding on the part of the director of what a cleric is in the Muslim world. Just because the director refers to someone as a cleric, that doesn't make them one. If I made a movie about a tomato and called it in an orange in the movie, would that make it an orange or it would be a tomato that the director refers to as an orange? Anyway, that's all besides the point. The point is that Amr Waked's character is not a cleric and is not referred to as such in any source. Therefore, this reference in the Wikipedia article should be removed (there isn't even a citation next to it) --The new mr (talk) 18:08, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- I'm looking at many different sources on the subject of the film that refer to the character as a cleric. I'm curious why you object to the word "cleric". Clearly it's not because it's unsourced, as it took me ten seconds to find sources supporting it. Viriditas (talk) 19:09, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- Well could you please point me in the direction of at least one of them? I could not find one in all the sources referenced by the article. Either that or agree that the word cleric should be removed please.
- And my objection to the word cleric is two fold. First, there is no concept of clergy in Islam. Second, even if there was, referring to this man as a cleric seems to endorse his terrorist opinions as valid ones held in Islam which, needless to say, they aren't. The new mr (talk) 21:35, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- Sorry, but your arguments don't make any sense and it seems like you are trolling. The majority of RS literature calls the man a cleric. You don't seem to have a legitimate argument against it. Do I need to stop doing my job to pull up a list of sources that show you are wrong, or will you do the necessary research? Viriditas (talk) 22:24, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- I have tried to stay civilised during the discussion but you are bringing it down. I refuse to do the same. I am not trolling and I think my arguments make perfect sense. As I have said, I did not find any reference to him being a cleric in all the sources referenced by the article. If I have missed one then please do point out where I went wrong. I believe the onus is on you to bring forward at least one reference that shows he's referred to as a cleric from a reliable source. If you are unable or unwilling to do that then it should be removed. Perhaps we should get a moderator involved. --The new mr (talk) 10:59, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
- I see there hasn't been a reply since. I shall ask for moderator involvement.
- Summary for Third Opinion Editor: There is a dispute regarding Amr Waked's character's status as a cleric. The New Mr believes he should not be considered a cleric for two reasons:
- 1. None of the sources refer to him as a cleric.
- 2. Nothing in the film itself indicates that he might be.
- Viriditas disagrees stating that there are sources that indicate he is a cleric but has not presented a source to date. --The new mr (talk) 10:45, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
- Requesting third opinion. --The new mr (talk) 10:45, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
Third opinion
Thank you for providing a summary. (It may be a biased summary, but is better than none.) I infer that Amr Waked is a real person who is portrayed in the movie. If he is a real person, he should only be referred to as a cleric if reliable sources refer to him as a cleric. I will add that if he is a real person, he should be linked in the article, whether redlinked or bluelinked. Being a character in a movie is a sort of notability for a real person that justifies an article. I am not closing the Third Opinion request because maybe another editor will provide a more definitive answer. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:10, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
- The question is whether Muhammad Sheikh Agiza is a cleric. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:12, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
- It appears that the question is whether to refer to the person (played by Waked) as a cleric. Does the character represent a real person? If so, what do reliable sources say about the real person? If the person isn't real, this question is about abstract nonsense. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:16, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
- Thank you for your third opinion Robert. As far I know, the character is entirely fictional. I still feel it's important to be accurate though. --The new mr (talk) 02:03, 22 October 2016 (UTC)
Second third opinion
I do think it's strange to say that "many different sources on the subject" say something, and not give any hint of what those sources are; stranger still to label a request to name those sources as "trolling". I can also confirm that a simple Google search does not turn up any sources. But I don't give up easily, and by playing with search terms I turned up:
- Beyond Hollywood – "side plots involving the CIA, a radical Islamic cleric and a Geneva-based energy trader"
- Time Out – "where extremist Muslim clerics bend the ears of impressionable foreign oil workers looking for some purpose to their lives of drudgery"
- Spiked "an Islamic cleric is addressing a crowd of pupils sitting around him on the floor, preaching them a fundamentalist view of Islam." This review is by Karl Sharro, who is Lebanese.
So, from a WP:V point of view, the word "cleric" may be used. Whether it needs to be used is another question. I personally don't think that removing the word makes the article any less informative. Scolaire (talk) 16:48, 22 October 2016 (UTC)
- Thank you for your second third opinion Scolaire. Apologies for my delay in responding to this. Thank you first of all for validating my position as not trolling. I do appreciate it. Regarding the links you turned up. The first one is now a 404 (domain expired). The second two don't refer to Amr Waked's character but rather another character seen in the film for a few minutes. Even the quote from the first, now 404ed, Beyond Hollywood link is really a misinterpretation of what a cleric is. Just because a link from a now defunct entertainment news website states that a character in a movie is a cleric, this does not make them a cleric. I would like to propose removal of this word from the page. As Scolaire mentions, removing it does not make it any less informative. The new mr (talk) 10:15, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
Declining third third opinion
Good afternoon from the UK, and thank you for requesting another third opinion, however I am declining it as you have had two already, and it is in the nature of the 3O process that in such a case another is unlikely to help. If this issue is worth the candle (and since we are dealing with a fictional character search for a "true" answer may be futile) then perhaps you should try WP:Requests for Comment, the dispute resolution noticeboard, the talk page of a Wikiproject or one of the other WP:Dispute resolution options. Otherwise maybe it would be appropriate to WP:DISENGAGE for a while.
With all respect to you both, Springnuts (talk) 11:40, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
- Okay, that's fair enough. Thank you for your comment and suggestion The new mr (talk) 14:49, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
