Should the killings in Philippine drug war belong to Targeted killing or Extrajudicial killing? Nishidani (talk) 16:05, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
Survey
- Extrajudicial killing (should not belong to Targeted killing) - Call it "targeted killing" if the Philippine military starts sending drones to bomb the drug barons' hideouts. For now, some of the killings of drug related criminals were possibly extrajudicial killings carried out by bad cops. STSC (talk) 18:44, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
- Include in Targeted killing. This is a no-brainer.
- Numerous quality RS unambiguously state that under President Duterte, targeted killings are a feature of Philippine society.
- These sources include declarations from the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights; Human Rights Watch; Amnesty International and numerous mainstream newspapers covering these cases.
- James Fenton writing for the New York Review of Books, after doing fieldwork funded by the Pulitzer Prize, published his research which states that under Duterte two forms of ‘carnage’ are taking place (a) targeted killings of anyone known to take or sell drugs and (b) extrajudicial killings. Editors do not have a right to override sources by collapsing a distinction the sources themselves make, as here between targeted killings and extrajudicial killings.Targeted killings amount of 2,000 of the estimated 7,000 killings of this type. [1]
- Duterte, as anyone can see from the evidence consistently removed by three editwarriors, openly admits that he favours targeted killings-
- Wikipedia editing has rules to restrict the private likes/dislikes and subjective views of its editors. Here we have 3, one who has just entered wikipedia to edit and revert only this information with no more than 15 edits to his credit, who are disputing the technical literature which is substantial and recognizes targeted killings as a feature of the Philippines, without reference to sound policy grounds.Nishidani (talk) 19:26, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
- (talk) why does almost every recent comment you make, get rather personal, and concentrate just as much on the editors involved as the content? Could you please avoid all of the snide comments about edit warriors, IPs, meatpuppets, new editors and just focus on the article, please? Also, forget about James Fenton - the guy is a highly respected poet. He writes poetry.
- And some of his best verse was written in,and about, the Philippines where he was long resident. That's why journals like the New York Review of Books or the London Review of Books commission him to write on that country, which he knows intimnately. Now please desist from jamming the thread and allow independent editors to comment.Nishidani (talk) 21:15, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
- Also, could you address the comments about the wiktionary entry for Targeted Killing. It seems to contradict everything you are saying here. Are all citations on there incorrect? Mitsubishi love (talk) 20:43, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
- Exclude from Targeted killing. There are enough reliable sources that confirm that the extrajudicial killings in the Philippines do not fit the definition of Targeted killings. It might be worth a mention that some poet who once lived in the Philippines has a different definition, if that keeps the peace, but that of course will be balanced with content stating that this Poet's claim doesn't fit with the legal definition from far more reliable sources. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 07:17, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
- Exclude for reasons that have already been explained by myself and other editors Mitsubishi love (talk) 18:58, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
- Not only exlude, but I think the article should be deleted as per previous talk page discussions and all content should be moved to the extrajudicial killings article and the assassination article, where there are clear definitions and the content would be a perfect fit. Mitsubishi love (talk) 04:37, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
- Include in Targeted killing, for the reasons stated by Nishidani. This does not, of course, preclude material about the extrajudicial killings in the Philippines also being added to the extrajudicial killing article. --NSH001 (talk) 08:55, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
- Include Targeted killing and Extrajudicial killing as these killing are both. Edward321 (talk) 20:56, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
- Include in both, whilst these deaths might not meet the most common understanding of 'targetted', which would be the assassination of known individuals, or groups of leaders - rather than - as here the targetting of a category of persons, nonetheless RS are using the term. If necessary attribute the description to the sources using the term. Pincrete (talk) 10:59, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
- Include in both. There are enough sources supporting both targeted and extrajudicial killings in Philippines under Duterte. Oranjelo100 (talk) 13:13, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
Discussion
The deaths of drug users in the Philippines belongs on Wikipedia. That is not disputed. It belongs on the Rodrigo Duterte article, the Philippine Drug War article, the Extrajudicial killings and forced disappearances in the Philippines article and the Extrajudicial killing article. They don't belong here, as they don't fit the definition of a targeted killing or assassination.
Wiktionary makes its abundantly clear:
"The intentional killing by a government or its agents of a civilian or "unlawful combatant" who is not in that government's custody, and who is taking part in an armed conflict or terrorism, whether by bearing arms or otherwise, and is thus regarded by the government as having lost the immunity from being targeted that he or she would otherwise have under the Geneva Conventions" [2]
The victims are not "taking part in an armed conflict or terrorism", so this content has no place on this article.
A compromise has been offered by another editor in which it was suggested:
"Classifying the recent killings in the Philippines as targeted killings is debatable, the fact that we are even having this discussion makes that much clear.
Having a section for the Philippines, in the same format as the other nations listed, with something along the lines of "the killings in the Philippine Drug War have been classified as targeted killings by some sources such as Human Rights Watch", with ample opportunity for opposing opinions to be added to the article, if suitable content/sources are available. It should be made clear that calling the killings targeted killings, is merely based on the opinions of some organizations, and that other organizations have vastly different views on the subject."
that reasonable suggestion and offer of compromise would allow the disputed content to stay on the article, informing the readers that the defining the deaths as targeted killings is one opinion and there are others. That seems fair and as one of the involved editors, I support that proposal. Mitsubishi love (talk) 16:36, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
References
There are two chief kinds of carnage taking place here, these wet Manila nights.There is the “buy-bust” operation, in which the targeted criminal attempts to buy some drugs, only to find that he is dealing with undercover police. He panics and reaches for a weapon, a pistol perhaps or a kind of homemade shotgun. Before he can use it (so the familiar script reads) the police shoot him dead. An EJK, the second form of carnage, is an extrajudicial killing, and it was outnumbering the buy-bust incident, this December, by roughly two to one. A buy-bust is of its nature attributable. A particular group of policemen takes responsibility for a particular killing on grounds of self-defense, and though doubt may be cast on their story (which repeats and repeats the same formula) there is no mystery about the people involved.James Fenton Murderous Manila : O the Night Shift New York Review of Books (9 Feb.2017)
