Talk:Afroswing/Archive 1

Hello @HarrySONofBARRY

• Afro trap is an 'already' established seperate/ standalone genre.
• Has a completely different pioneer ( MHD (rapper)) as well as although highly similiar in styles , different genre description.
• 1 December 2016 ; " MHD and France's "Afro Trap" Phenomenon" - (OkayAfrica)
• 14 December 2017 ; "I have always listened to a lot of African music and I also grew up listening to rap, so everything came quite naturally to me. I had a desire to mix the genres, to create that atmosphere, and to dance to the lines that do not necessarily lend themselves to it." - (Paper (magazine)
• Sources in what appears to be only in or year, 2018 appear to have referred to it (afroswing) as (afrotrap) just like its what appears to be parent/ derivative genre before it was offficially titled or differentiated from afro trap. "Just like ‘Eskibeat’ or ‘sublow’ to grime in its infancy, there’s a multitude of labels given to this sound – ‘Afrotrap’, ‘Afroswing’, to name a couple – but Team Salut are firmly in the ‘Afrowave’ camp. "
• Hence why explicitly mentioning it (afro trap) as another name especially in the infoxbox parameter doesn't appear to be suitable/ relevant.

Qaqaamba (talk) 23:46, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Hence where there is a note to clarify readers should not confuse British afro trap with French afro trap (a note which you, for some reason, have removed). These are two different genres that used the same name.

The lede also makes clear that afro trap was a lesser used name, and the article further explains that eventually afroswing (and, to some extent, afrobashment) essentially won the Battle of Names.

It is absolutely relevant, because it WAS, at a point in time, used as a name for this genre. It has no relation, obscure or otherwise, with the French genre. There is no reason at all to remove this from the page. And it IS sourced, multiple times.

We've talked about this on the Afrobeats talk page: names get re-used. What's important is the context we're talking about. 0 source makes reference to British afro trap relating in any way to French afro trap. Both genres gained the name organically. I have no idea where you've gotten this idea that it's some sort of parent genre, other than the fact they share a name. It wasn't "differentiated"... that's what it was called.

There is, in this instance, no reason to remove content that is sourced and correct. It's bordering WP:DISRUPTIVE to attempt to edit war this when we've already had a conversation about it, I went out of my way to provide an additional source, and a note of clarity has long-been a part of this articles lede. HarrySONofBARRY (talk) 23:53, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

I've already re-listed it/ included it as less commonly known in regards to your mention "at a point in time".Thus, it does not need to be significantly highlighted via "other name(s).", again.

To reiterate , in regards to "other names" , in the event the afro trap standalone article is created , "afro trap" most likely can not be listed here as "other name" especially when the genre already has a main/ predominant title which is not "afro trap" & they are what appears to be significantly similiar musical styles. The differentiation in this case is highly, important.

• Afroswing search engine results ;
• Afrotrap search engine results ;
• It appears as far back as 2018, the genre was already being predominantly being referred to solely as "Afroswing"
• 17 May 2018 "Kojo Funds Is the Afro-Swing King of the UK’s Black Diaspora" ;
• 26 May 2018

Qaqaamba (talk) 00:14, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Hello, I'm really confused as to how you think your changes are an improvement to the page, especially in light of why you decided to remove the content to begin with. You have A) removed sources B) removed a note of clarity C) made the infobox inaccurate in relation.

I need to repeat this: you cannot argue with reliable sources. IF a source states information, we need to follow that information. Your personal takes, opinions, or otherwise do not, in any way shape or form, matter. If articles contradict one another, that's worth a discussion. The first action should not be: "let's just nuke this content". And in this case, there is no contradiction, e.g there is no "The sky is actually yellow, not blue as suggested by xyz". This is simply a case of multiple things with the same name.

Current article: "Afroswing, also known as Afrobashment, or less commonly Afrobbean, Afrotrap or Afrowave"

Previous article: "Afroswing, also known as Afrobashment, or less commonly Afrobbean or Afro-trap (not to be confused with the French genre)"

You've "re-added" it but without the note to clarify what it might be confused for? Why? How is that any better, especially since you think this is a major point of confusion for readers - well now they're definitely open to confusion!

You've also removed two perfectly good sources https://i-d.vice.com/en/article/xwddaq/why-this-is-such-an-exciting-time-for-the-afrobeats-scene-in-the-uk https://www.redbull.com/gb-en/team-salut-raise-the-bar-interview for no apparent reason.

Respectfully, you need to consider your ethos when editing Wikipedia. Things like WP:COLLAB and especially, in this instance, WP:WINNING. You've just multi-reverted this page, removed sourced content, then re-added it with less sources and removed the note of clarity which NOW has introduced a point of confusion. What good has been accomplished in this instance? Surely this is not how you intend to spend your time on Wikipedia? It's going to be exhausting. Most people, including myself, are open to having a discussion. You've just nuked content on both this page and Afrobeats and then argue relentlessly about it while ignoring any attempt at compromise. Come on man, nobody is trying to battle you. All that matters here is what the sources state, and sources state afro-trap is an alternative name.

If another Wiki article is created, that's completely irrelevant to the contents of this article and has nothing to do with the Other Name field in the infobox.

Fact is, sources refer to it as an alternative name. It's an alternative name. That's the be all, end all. HarrySONofBARRY (talk) 00:34, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

• Twice, as per edit summaries I propositioned for you to talk.
• Please re-add any sources I may have accidentaly / unintentionally removed whilst re-arranging sources.
• WP:INDISCRIMINATE highlights that not everything is suitable for inclusion in the encyclopedia especially in what appears to be this case as afro trap is already an established standalone, genre.
• Currently, "Less commonly known as" as well as not including it (afro trap) as another / "other name" title in the infobox appears to be sufficient enough in regards to insightful information for the reader however to not majorly evoke confusion or appear to be misleading, especially once the standalone (afro trap) article will be created.
• Sources are/ were not explicitly nor largely referring to afro trap , solely as Afroswing's alternative name.

Qaqaamba (talk) 00:58, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

We already DID talk, about this very issue, on the Afrobeats talk page. And the first thing I did, upon reverting your removals, was add another source to back it up, which you then removed.

WP:INDISCRIMINATE is a guideline, not necessarily a hard-rule. Noting that a genre was called x seems relevant to me. How x is used elsewhere is not relevant. Again, the contents of another article, especially a hypothetical one, has absolutely no relevance here.

All of the sources (well, 3 of them anyway) included in the lede do in-fact explicitly refer to afro-trap as an alternative name for Afroswing.

If the info is in the lede, it should be in the infobox. There is no explicable reason to leave it out of the infobox and I really, truly, do not understand why you've re-added it to the lede but don't wish it to be in the infobox. There is no rule that states "if a named is used somewhere on Wiki, it can't be used anywhere else in another context". All that's been done here is content has been removed, then it was re-added it but in a worse state than it already was previously. Just bizarre and confusing waste of time. Might I suggest simply reverting it to how it was, since the only thing substantial that has been changed is 1) "afrowave" was added to the lede which hey, sure why not we can keep that, and 2) the note to clarify any confusion caused by "afro trap" was removed even though this was one of your primary concerns. HarrySONofBARRY (talk) 01:05, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

• Elsewhere is not the designated article's talk page. The above mentioned reference was also offtopic and in a section in regards to a different a topic.
• Contents of musical genres which appear to be titled as the same name definitely have relevance or are relevant in regards to the purpose and benefit of the encyclopedia.
• Sources still do not appear to explicitly and largely refer to as or mention "Afro trap" as an alternative or "other name". In actual fact Afrowave appears to be mentioned more , implying that afrotrap could possibly be entirely disregarded as another name or at most include a brief mention in the body however not even in the lede as the relevance is not that important, as well as the fact that there is an 'already' standalone genre in what appears to be a highly similiar style of music with the exact same title.

Qaqaamba (talk) 01:43, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

A technicality over where we had a conversation doesn't negate the fact we did, in-fact, have this discussion. Just because it was not in the ideal location does not mean we did not have this discussion. Let's not start fighting battles over technicalities and rule lawyering WP:LAWYERING. The only reason you came to this article to begin with was BECAUSE of that conversation, so yes, it was not in the ideal talk page, but it was a conversation that was had, and you edited this page with the context of that conversation in mind. Disputes are often laid out on user talk pages or in the case of spillages like this, periphery pages. It might not be ideal, but they happened. Let's be reasonable - the logical answer to an edit disagreement is not to pretend a conversation was never had and we just have it all over again like Groundhog Day just because an ideal technical guideline exists.

The only thing relevant to this article is information that's relevant to this article. The contents of other (literally hypothetical) articles are most certainly NOT relevant, nor are genres of the same name aside from the fact a clarification may need to be had which, indeed, there already was which you've unfortunately removed for reasons unknown. It is, in its current state, more ambiguous than it was originally due to the very lack of that clarification.

I'm well aware of afrowave's relation to afroswing because I uh, added it to the article myself. I have no qualms with it being in the lede. The only reason it wasn't in the lede is because.... to be honest, I think I forgot all about it. I definitely meant to at some point.

"Afro-Trap, the diasporic genre nobody really has a proper name for (some call it Afro Bashment)" (https://www.thefader.com/2017/10/25/new-afro-trap-playlist) "Just like ‘Eskibeat’ or ‘sublow’ to grime in its infancy, there’s a multitude of labels given to this sound – ‘Afrotrap’, ‘Afroswing’, to name a couple" (https://www.redbull.com/gb-en/team-salut-raise-the-bar-interview) British Afroswing (known also as Afrobbean or Afrotrap) collective (https://www.dancehallmag.com/2023/01/25/features/bob-marley-the-wailers-stir-it-up-with-sarkodie-and-13-more-new-songs.html). All of these sources explicitly refer to afrotrap as an alternative name for afroswing.

Just to reiterate: the existence of another genre has absolutely no relevance. We are not writing a wiki article on all genres with the name "afro" and "trap" in them. We're writing an article about afroswing. Afroswing was, at times, referred to as afro-trap. Including all the relevant names in the lede is common practice and, frankly, there's no reason not to beyond this arbitrary reason you've conjured up out of nowhere.

In either case, as stated, you've essentially reverted the article to how it was originally... just worse. I am, after all this, most confused as to the point of this stand you've decided to take. All you've done is removed sources, removed Afrotrap from the infobox, and removed a statement in the lede added to confusion with another genre. What improvement has been made here? HarrySONofBARRY (talk) 04:06, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

• I am yet to still see/ be made aware of which sources I have removed ( entirely deleted) as per your repeated stipulations. As both sources mentioned above, have never been / were never removed. I further reiterated for you to please re-add these sources, if that was or is the case.
• Please refer to ; .

I think it's necessary to please close this discussion. Qaqaamba (talk) 08:02, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

You have yet to present a reason as to why you've made these changes, so no I don't think the discussion needs closes but it does probably need a third-party to look over it.

The sources in the lede can be seen here https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Afroswing&diff=prev&oldid=1193464089#cite_note-:0-1 in their entirety, versus the current one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afroswing two are missing

The current edit is now worse than the previous one, given the sourced content (afro-trap) has been removed entirely. I am still confused as to the point of this. I just presented you three, full quotations that justify why afro-trap was in the article and your solution was to remove it entirely and ask to close the conversation. Sigh. HarrySONofBARRY (talk) 15:15, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

@HarrySONofBARRY

• It appears you are unable to read the reference list , properly especially in regards to confirming that no sources have ever been removed or deleted as you insistently repeatedly stipulate.
• Edit summaries, in addition this discussion provide(s) sufficient information.

Qaqaamba (talk) 15:28, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

The edit summaries are not sufficient when there is a disagreement over what is being edited. This conversation is where a sufficent reason should be found, but one has not been. Your idea, up til this point, has been "Afro-trap was merely misidentified as the French genre". My argument, is that there is nothing indicating that is the case, and that "afro-trap" was simply an alternative name. A note of clarity was already in the article to avoid confusion.

5 vs 3, something was moved that didn't need to be.

In either case, this appears to be another case where we've met a wall. Let's invite a third-party to look over the dispute. HarrySONofBARRY (talk) 15:31, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

I really don't know how else to say this: "There also appeared to be cases of the genre having been briefly referred to as almost identical French 'afro trap'". Absolutely 0, zero, none, no sources identify British afro-trap as French afro-trap. They are not "almost identical" beyond similar african origins. There's no source in which that is the conclusion that should be met. Afro-trap was just an alternative name for Afroswing, that's all there is to it. There's no link to the French genre at all. All of it comes back to your idea that a genre name cannot be shared by multiple sounds - it's simply false, and you're attempting to enforce this view over following what the sources are actually saying. HarrySONofBARRY (talk) 15:24, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

@HarrySONofBARRY

• Both Afro trap and Afroswing appear to combine similar or the same genres.
• Both Afro trap and Afroswing emerged 'round about the same time.
• The current edit is in a paragraph under the "Origins" section which is designated to other names or genres which afroswing was labeled as or referred to as before it was officially titled. As per the paragraph not only was it briefly referred to as 'afro trap' , also 'afrobeats' or categorized simply as 'UK rap' etc. I believe I don't need to be re-detailing the above as it's clear and comprehensive.

Qaqaamba (talk) 15:35, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Is this your personal opinion WP:NPOV or can you find a source that suggests British afro-trap is related, explicitly, with afro-trap? Please keep in mind that perceived similarities do not mean they are related.

The sentence in the origins section confusingly links it to French afro-trap, versus how the article was originally which did not do that. This is not an improvement.

We already know we disagree on this point so there's no reason to rehash it. My argument: sources refer to afro-trap as an alt name. I've provided examples of this above. Please provide examples that suggest British afro-trap is related in any way to French afro-trap (and just to answer that point: articles explicitly talk about the differences between Afrobeats and Afroswing, and the wider UK rap scene and afroswing - hence why they were there, and not in the lede as alternative names).

Cheers. HarrySONofBARRY (talk) 15:38, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

@HarrySONofBARRY You appear to be often deviating from the main purpose of this discussion or in conjunction to the edit, edit summaries as well as the discussion above. In addition, continously as well as insistently stipulating off topic, topics. Qaqaamba (talk) 15:42, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure where you think I'm deviating to be honest.

We're discussing the removal of afro-trap from the article. You removed it from the article. Sources clearly indicate why it was in the article. I presented examples above. You then re-added it to the article, but removed it from the infobox. You then removed it from the lede, but added it to the origins section with linked it to French afro-trap.

You have made changes that go contrary to what sources have stated. You've now, instead of removing it or leaving it in the lede, have swapped it for a sentence indicating it was merely "confused" for French afro-trap. There is no source that suggests this, hence there is no reason for how it was originally to be replaced with this sentence.

So again, politely, I'm asking you to justify these edits by providing sources that suggest British afro-trap was, in your words, "briefly referred to as the almost identical French 'afro trap'". This sentence implies two things: 1) British and French afro-trap were almost identical and 2) British afro-trap was being referred to as French afro-trap. However, as indicated above, none of the sources relate it to French afro-trap in anyway, shape, or form. It was a name that both genres gained in their own way.

So, can you provide sources that justify these changes? Cheers. HarrySONofBARRY (talk) 15:50, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

• All edits are in conjunction as per the purpose and proceedings' of this discussion as well as edit summaries.
• This talk is in reference to Afroswing ( which as per the 'Origins' section was briefly referred to as 'Afro trap' amongst other labels during its emergence and there appeared to be confusion in regards to what to call it/ label it as) and Afro Trap.
• It appears you are referring to Afroswing as 'British Afro trap' without having listed any former/ historical sources explicitly stating that Afroswing = 'British Afro trap'.
• It appears no differentiation was made during the brief period , the dubbed "moniker" whereas 'British Afro trap' (Afrowsing) was being referred to / labeled as the 'already' established "French" ,Afro trap, genre.
• Please see below ;

✒ 1 December 2016 - "

MHD and France's "Afro Trap" Phenomenon

MHD proudly celebrates his roots by making West African-inspired "Afro Trap" music."

• • 2018 "Just like ‘Eskibeat’ or ‘sublow’ to grime in its infancy, there’s a multitude of labels given to this sound – ‘Afrotrap’, ‘Afroswing’, to name a couple – but Team Salut are firmly in the ‘Afrowave’ camp. "
  • 2017 "Afro-Trap, the diasporic genre nobody really has a proper name for (some call it Afro Bashment), is the dominant sound of young London right now."
    • "Some call it UK Afrobeats, others Afro-bashment or Afro-trap. But nobody is quite sure what to call it and that’s what is so exciting. "
• Almost identical - "These words refer to people or things that are almost the same as someone or something else in some way. One common word for this is similar." (Cambridge Dictionary)
• Afro trap - "his style is more characterized by its heavy drums and layered synthesizers, and African influences in terms of the music, lyrics sung in West African languages" , "blending West African pop and western rap" , "I have always listened to a lot of African music and I also grew up listening to rap" , "MHD, a rapper from Paris, is pioneering a new genre of hip-hop, Afro Trap, blending trap music from the southern US with Afrobeat music, reflecting his Senegalese and Guinean heritage." , "Mohamed Sylla, better known as MHD, 24, is the French phenomenon taking his sound inspired by a love of afrobeats, hip-hop, and trap around the world."
• Afroswing (which appears to be 'British Afro trap' presumably according to @HarrySONofBARRY as well as sources during its emergence before it was officially solely predominantly titled "Afro swing") - "Working from a converted church in South London, this "Afrowave" group are transforming the UK scene with productions that blend R&B, gospel, West African pop and UK rap" , "London has started bumping to a whole new sound. Afrobeats stars mix melodies driven by West African heritage with rap vocals and R&B beats.", "The music combines elements of thriving Ghanaian and Nigerian “Afrobeats”, Jamaican dancehall and different United States rap styles, including southern “trap” and the newer, nihilistic (and onomatopoeic) Chicago “drill” sound. " , "It’s a mix of different genres,” he tells me with purpose, in a baritone drawl, twiddling his fingers with as much ease as crafting his sound. “Dancehall, Afrobeats, you get a new jack swing vibe and RnB vibe mixed in as well. That’s the ‘swing’ part of it, and there’s no one else in the scene doing it except me. I’m not trying to be defined as an Afrobeats artist.”,"South-Londoner paved the way for more artists to introduce their African-infused sounds and melodies into rap beats and tracks."

Qaqaamba (talk) 17:51, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm at work at the moment so forgive me if this lacks detail,

Let me copy my earlier post,

"Afro-Trap, the diasporic genre nobody really has a proper name for (some call it Afro Bashment)" (https://www.thefader.com/2017/10/25/new-afro-trap-playlist) "Just like ‘Eskibeat’ or ‘sublow’ to grime in its infancy, there’s a multitude of labels given to this sound – ‘Afrotrap’, ‘Afroswing’, to name a couple" (https://www.redbull.com/gb-en/team-salut-raise-the-bar-interview) British Afroswing (known also as Afrobbean or Afrotrap) collective (https://www.dancehallmag.com/2023/01/25/features/bob-marley-the-wailers-stir-it-up-with-sarkodie-and-13-more-new-songs.html).

All of these sources explicitly refer to afrotrap as an alternative name for afroswing.

In fact, you seem to have copied these quotes in this very message. I'm honestly not sure how you can even disagree with what I'm saying, it literally says right there that afeotrap is another name for afroswing, three times.

Every single one of these quotes explicitly refer to afro trap as an alias for afroswing. The existence of another genre with the same name is, again, irrelevant as there are zero sources that suggest they are related.S You are performing WP:Synthesis (this may not be the correct link) by gathering multiple sources about two different things (British Vs french) and then drawing your own conclusion from these sources, a conclusion that none of them make themselves. The fact that the French and British genre are somewhat related in origin due to their disaporaic elements, simply is irrelevant. What's relevant is whether or not afrotrap was an alias, and it was. Both genres have similar origins, of course they will have similar descriptions. You're trying to imply that because the French genre sounds similar, they must therefore have given the name to the British genre, or are related. No source suggests this.

You keep implying that afroswing was simply being referred to as the French genre. This is no source that suggests this.

And, again, no differentiation was made between British and French afrotrap because, again, they were not at all related and gained the same name organically themselves. This is different to afro beats for example - a number of sources explicity talk about how afrobeats and afroswing differ

This ultimately all comes back to your personal opinion that genre names cannot be refused under any circumstances. I'm sorry, but your personal view on this does not trump what sources state. Your removal of the alias from the lede and infobox, and plscing it in the origins section is /not/ an improvement. Your attempt to conflate and confuse two separate genres is /not/ supported by any source you have presented.

Nothing you have posted here contradicts the fact that afrotrap was an alias for afroswing. There's no point going any further with this conversation until a third party is able to analyse it.

. HarrySONofBARRY (talk) 18:51, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

"Since then, numerous variants have sprung up, a dizzying profusion of subgenres with names like Afroswing and Afrobashment." , "The equivalent genre across the Channel is Afrotrap. It was pioneered by MHD, a musician from Paris who is one of the best-known rappers in France. He created Afrotrap in 2015." ( The New York Times)

• Alias, in this context as a noun or verb - "a false or assumed identity.", "misidentify (a signal frequency), introducing distortion or error." (Oxford English Dictionary) , thus as per context alias ≠ 'other name' especially not as significant to be placed in the infobox parameter.
• Explicitly - "in a clear and detailed manner, leaving no room for confusion or doubt." (Oxford English Dictionary).
• As per sources you provided above whereas you've stipulated at present are explicitly stipulating afro trap as an alias (which equates to misidentification which is already detailed in the 'Origins' section amongst what appears to be the other brief "monikers" such as afrobeats) of afroswing; " Afro-Trap, the diasporic genre nobody really has a proper name for (some call it Afro Bashment), is the dominant sound of young London right now." , "Just like ‘Eskibeat’ or ‘sublow’ to grime in its infancy, there’s a multitude of labels given to this sound – ‘Afrotrap’, ‘Afroswing’, to name a couple – but Team Salut are firmly in the ‘Afrowave’ camp. ".
• "British Afroswing (known also as Afrobbean or Afrotrap)"

Qaqaamba (talk) 19:43, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Hello,

1. Yes, we've already established that French afro-trap is similar and exists. This does not dispute the fact that Afro-trap was an alias for afroswing, as supported by sources I provided previously. There's no indication in any source that this is because it was a derivative of the French genre, gained its name from the French genre, or was simply misidentified or lumped in with the French genre. The current state of the article says: "There also appeared to be cases of the genre having been briefly referred to as almost identical French 'afro trap'.". There are zero sources that support the proposition that "afroswing" was being referred to as the French genre, as opposed to them simply having the same name (briefly). I implore you to read WP:Synthesis because you've drawn a conclusion that no source itself has drawn.

2. I'm sorry, but I'm not sure how you've come to the conclusion that alias, within the context I'm talking about, means "a false of assumed identity". If my word choice has confused you, then I do apologise, but I assumed it was quite clear I was using alias in its most common context: "otherwise known as", per https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/alias ': otherwise called: otherwise known as —used to indicate an additional name that a person sometimes uses' Please do let me know if any other words I have opted to use during any of our conversations have also confused you, and I will be happy to provide clarification.

3. I would suggest that all of the sources are rather explicit in their meaning, but to pick just one of them, "British Afroswing (known also as Afrobbean or Afrotrap)". I'm honestly not sure how you could get more explicitly than that, it literally identifies afroswing as a genre, than states afrotrap is an alia... I mean, alternative name for that genre.

4. I don't believe this paragraph requires a response, as it seems to step from a misunderstanding of my usage of the word 'alias'. I would note that that word was never used in the article. In either case, yes, those quotations all state that afro-trap is another name for afroswing. I am still confused as to how you can both quote them exactly and yet disagree with what they state. In addition, once again, this IS NOT similar to the situation with afrobeats as there are sources that explicitly talk about how afrobeats relates to afroswing, and that they aren't exactly the same (but rather, it's a derivative). The sources I have provided do not equate or compare Afroswing with French afro-trap, rather, they use afro-trap as an alternative name for afroswing. This is an extremely key difference. Any confusion that might be had by readers was already dispelled by a note that immediately followed afro-trap in the lede before you deleted it.

5. In either case, I must implore we wait for a third-party intervention, lest we end up on one of those List of Most Mundane Wiki Disputes articles that I'm sure exists somewhere. HarrySONofBARRY (talk) 02:01, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

@HarrySONofBARRY

You previously stipulated that there are no major similarities or relatedness between Afro Trap and Afroswing. Prior to that, that sources were literally entirely deleted /removed.

• You still haven't provided sources in reference to what you stipulated as 'British Afro trap'. Which actually equates to fabrication/ original research.
• As per repeatedly stipulated , edit summaries and the flow of this discussion. Afro trap is already mentioned in the/ a paragraph (Origins, section) amongst other monikers or what you refer to as 'aliases'. The urgency and importance you're creating regarding it being in addition, re-added to the lede and infobox given the circumstances, appears to be superfluous, unproductive and mundane.

Qaqaamba (talk) 05:54, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

The perceived similarities to French afrotrap is not relevant to whether or not afrotrap was an alias for afroswing. I've maintained this position throughout.

I've literally provided you three sources that explicitly refer to afrotrap as an alternative name for afroswing... What more do you want? It's literally right there in the message you're replying to.

Afrotrap was NOT mentioned in the origins section until you decided to remove it from the lede, and ADD it to the origins section. That is not the status Quo and you have not gained a consensus for these changes. I am asking you to revert the article to how it was originally, because the changes you've made are not supported by any source you've provided

The sentence you added to the origins section implies it was merely a misidentification with the french genre. There is no misidentification referenced in any source.

The way the article was originally was sourced by 3 sources

The way the article is now is not supported by any source, in regards to your sentence about "afrotrap"

Also, I assumed it went without saying but I'm not sure you've understood - if afrotrap is another name for afroswing, as the sources clearly sya it is, then "British afrotrap" = afroswing.

You do not get to make sweeping changes to an article that aren't supportedbgy any source and then claim a disagreement is superfluous. Your changes are superfluous - they're literally unsourced and unnecessary. HarrySONofBARRY (talk) 19:34, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

And you did move sources around. I provided you a link above that clearly showed the original versi, which you deleted, had 5 sources in the first sentence of the lede Vs the three you left it with

But this is ultimately a supplementary issue to the main problem, which is you've changed the article because you don't agree with what the sources are saying. HarrySONofBARRY (talk) 19:35, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Hello @Qaqaamba: ,

In addition to the three sources that support listing afro-trap as an alternative name, I've also identified at least six others. Firstly, just going to re-list the ones we already have:

"Afro-Trap, the diasporic genre nobody really has a proper name for (some call it Afro Bashment)" (https://www.thefader.com/2017/10/25/new-afro-trap-playlist)

"Just like ‘Eskibeat’ or ‘sublow’ to grime in its infancy, there’s a multitude of labels given to this sound – ‘Afrotrap’, ‘Afroswing’, to name a couple" (https://www.redbull.com/gb-en/team-salut-raise-the-bar-interview)

"British Afroswing (known also as Afrobbean or Afrotrap) collective (https://www.dancehallmag.com/2023/01/25/features/bob-marley-the-wailers-stir-it-up-with-sarkodie-and-13-more-new-songs.html).

ADDITIONAL SOURCES

In addition, we also have this article from The Guardian https://www.theguardian.com/music/2018/jun/01/grime-afro-bashment-drill-how-black-british-music-became-more-fertile-than-ever

"Take Afro bashment. Despite being an increasing presence in the UK – J Hus’s debut album, Common Sense, peaked in the charts at No 6 last month – it has a shifting brand identity, and is also known as Afro trap, Afro swing and Afro hop"

And this article https://www.thenationalnews.com/london-s-new-cool-how-uk-afrobeats-could-take-over-the-world-1.318

'Some call it UK Afrobeats, others Afro-bashment or Afro-trap. But nobody is quite sure what to call it and that’s what is so exciting. We chart how a new wave of black artists have bypassed traditional gatekeepers to deliver their version of West African Afrobeat.'

"The music combines elements of thriving Ghanaian and Nigerian “Afrobeats”, Jamaican dancehall and different United States rap styles, including southern “trap” and the newer, nihilistic (and onomatopoeic) Chicago “drill” sound. What do they call it? Well, no one can quite agree: Austin Daboh, hired from the BBC black music station 1Xtra to develop Spotify’s playlists calls it “Afro-bashment” – a bashment being a type of Jamaican reggae-dancehall. Others go with “Afro-trap”, or simply “UK Afrobeats”."

And then this, https://www.clashmusic.com/reviews/j-hus-common-sense/

"Afro rap, afro bashment, afro trap, raprobeats – OK, that last one might be a step too far, but whatever you want to call it, J Hus is it."

We also have a report from VICE from 15 March 2016 https://www.vice.com/en/article/rmjnjn/londons-new-afrobeat-trap-rap-sound -

"Artists such as J Hus, Timbo, MoStack, Belly Squad, Sneakbo, Kojo Funds, and Tion Wayne are the spear heads of something new, [...] Just like grime did at the turn of the century, this new sound is struggling to find itself a suitable name—Afrohop? Traprobeats? Afrotrap?"

And another source https://www.thefader.com/2017/12/01/soundcloud-london-yxng-bane-belly-squad-afro-b-afrotrap-documentary

"“Is it called Afroswing, Afrowave, or Afrotrap? I dunno, but it sounds good.”"

And another one, https://crackmagazine.net/article/long-reads/belly-squad-catching-a-vibe/

"There’s a movement of artists fusing dancehall and Afrobeats with road rap and grime, creating a fresh, diasporic sound. Whether you call it ‘Afro-trap’, ‘Afro-hop’ or ‘Afro-swing’"

There's also a few other alternative names identified here, one of them in jest but the other - afro hop - not so and appears a couple times. In either case, I now have a total of nine sources that support listing afro trap as an alternative name for afroswing, and zero of these sources identify any kind of misidentification with the French genre.

In addition to this, I've identified a couple other sources that do not explicitly refer to afroswing or afrobashment by name, but do refer to afroswing artists or songs, and therefore one could reasonably infer it is talking about afroswing (such as those mentioned in the article already). Now, alone these might not be enough, but together with the other sources I've identified here, I feel as though they make the case for it being listed as an alternative name pretty clear:

https://www.vanguardngr.com/2021/05/i-want-people-to-hear-big-drip-on-repeat-and-become-ardent-afro-trap-followers-big-drip/

"For the Nigerian artist who grew up in the UK, Afro-trap is more than a diasporic sound; it’s a lifestyle that should be popular in Nigeria as it is dominant in London right now, with the likes of J Hus, Shaybo, Kojo Funds, Yxng Bane, Ms Banks, G4Boys, Mostack taking the forefront."

There's also this about J Hus and "Dem Boi Paigon", both identified in the the Wiki article as afroswing https://pan-african-music.com/en/j-hus-releases-the-first-single-from-his-debut-album-common-sens/

'Stratford rapper came in 2015 with club hits like ‘Dem Boy Paigon’ and ‘Lean & Bop’. These songs put him at the forefront of the emergent afrotrap scene'

And another one https://www.factmag.com/2017/04/04/j-hus-debut-album-common-sense/

"The Stratford rapper’s breakthrough came with his ubiquitous club smashes ‘Dem Boy Paigon’ and ‘Lean & Bop’ in 2015, which put him at the forefront of the emergent afrotrap scene – the blend of afrobeats given a UK twist of grime and bashment that’s one of the most exciting sounds around"

In light of this, I think it would be reasonable to revert the article to its previous state - as the content, as it was, is now supported by at least six separate sources, plus the original three sources that were already there, which we probably don't need to overload the lede with, but here they all are.

Cheers. HarrySONofBARRY (talk) 02:37, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

@HarrySONofBARRY thank you for listing the above, however they all appear to still confirm confusion in regards to the period the genre hadn't been officially named nor differentiated as per the proceedings of this discussion.

• During its ( Afroswing's) emergence and presumably no one knew what to refer to or label it as. Which has already been included and detailed under the 'Origins' section paragraph, amongst the other brief 'aliases' / monikers. Such as 'afrobeats' and 'UK rap'. All the above sources explicitly display or confirm confusion or brief aliases, not significant enough to be a definite 'other name'.
• One of the purposes of the encyclopedia is to include information or knowledge which covers all aspects of topics, however that is not inclusive of highly contradictory edits, which may especially lead to disinformation. Editing in a non-misleading manner when there is conflicting content is essential ( inclusive of supporting sources).
• Given the circumstances as well as regarding the fact that which appears to be that no former historical explicit differentiation was made between "British Afro trap" ( which appears to be Afroswing in this case according to @HarrySONofBARRY and which we'll perceive as being implied by sources as per this discussion) as well as the 'already' established Afro trap (MHD) genre. The mention as well as inclusion of 'Afro trap' in the 'Origins' section amongst other brief monikers , and not to be highlighted in the lede nor infobox parameter , appears to be most suitable as a non-contradict , non-confusion nor misleading edit for the reader.

Qaqaamba (talk) 07:06, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Hello,

Again, there is no indication in any source it was being misidentified or grouped under the french genre. The original state of the article was: "afro-trap (not to be confused with the French genre)". This immediately dispelled any confusion that may be had.

Again, there is discussion amongst sources about how there are differences between UK rap, afrobeats and afroswing - this is why they are noted in the origins section and not the lede. Afrotrap on the other hand is only ever mentioned in the context of being an alternative name. There is no source that identifies a a point of contradiction, it just so happens to be the case that two genres share a name.

It is not, there is no indication that there was misidentification with the French genre which is what the article currently implies.

At this point, you are arguing against 9 separate sources that list it as an alternative name. There's even sources there, amongst that list, post-2018 which still use afrotrap as a name for the genre despite afroswing winning out the popularity context. I would caution assuming a genre has any official name, it's still called afrobashment on Spotify for example.

9 sources is not even a reasonable amount, it's so many that listing them would be WP:CITEOVERKILL. It is more than enough to have afrotrap listed in the lede as an alternative name for the genre. The onus is on you to build a consensus as to why these sources are not good enough - they support returning the article to the status quo it was in until a consensus is built that suggests otherwise.

Again, you have made changes to the article and implying it is the consensus.

Listen, the key problem is frankly not that you've removed it from the lede, which in and of itself is an unnecessary change, but that you've introduced information into the article which is not supported by any source.

So, how about a compromise:

We leave it out of the lede and infobox, as it was originally.

We leave it in the origins section.

We rephrase the sentence from "There also appeared to be cases of the genre having been briefly referred to as almost identical French 'afro trap'." (which has issues due to aforementioned reasons) to "Afro-trap was another early name for the genre.". We can even shift this down a bit, so it follows the sentence that states: "Around the same time, Jabz Daniels was making a similar sound and called his music "Trapfrobeat", so it fits within context.

This does not solve all of my problems with your changes, but it rids us of the major one which is the suggestion it was being grouped in or misidentified with the French genre. Cheers. HarrySONofBARRY (talk) 13:17, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Please do not archive this conversation until a consensus has been met. If you'd prefer I ask for third-party intervention, I'm happy to do so. Cheers. HarrySONofBARRY (talk) 16:07, 4 January 2024 (UTC)