Talk:Apollo command and service module/Archive 2

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. This proposal hinged upon the application of the MOS:CAPS and NCCAPS guidelines. According to those guidelines, Wikipedia avoids unnecessary capitalisation. Specifically, MOS:CAPS says "only words and phrases that are consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources are capitalised in Wikipedia". The evidence brought to the table by the nominator, and also by other participants in this discussion, such as Mandruss, makes clear that this term is not consistently capitalised in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources. Those opposed to the move largely ignored Wikipedia policy or guidelines in their reasoning, instead relying on appeals to "historical importance", and personal feelings. As none of them were able to refute the evidence or policy-based argument presented by the supporters of this proposal, I believe that there is a consensus to move this article as proposed. The question of the stroke (slash) was not adequately discussed in this RM, and so I would suggest either a new RM, or an RM/TR technical request to deal with that issue. (closed by non-admin page mover) RGloucester — ☎ 03:48, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

Apollo Command/Service Module → Apollo command/service moduleApollo command/service module – Sources overwhelmingly treat these as not proper names; so per MOS:CAPS and WP:NCCAPS, we use sentence case. Dicklyon (talk) 01:18, 26 November 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. bd2412 T 00:04, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose Andy Dingley (talk) 01:34, 26 November 2018 (UTC) Because this is self-evident to any competent editor, and yet DickLyon has a track record of falsely and deceitfully claiming that not opposing his requests is the same thing as supporting them. This will form part of the evidence in the imminently inevitable call for him to be TBANed from making any such rename requests. Andy Dingley (talk) 13:24, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Disagree with @Andy Dingley: the argument is not self-evident. And I am really not a big fan of seeing personal attack instead of discussing issue. Xinbenlv (talk) 20:17, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

• Support as nom per evidence in sources, e.g. as summarized in n-grams. Dicklyon (talk) 02:17, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
• Support Agree with @Dicklyon because most source shows the naming is lowercase. A quick Google search shows dominantly lower case. Xinbenlv (talk) 20:17, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

• Strong oppose This is preposterous. These aren't just words, they're actual spacecraft designators. Should we move Lunar Excursion Module to lunar excursion module? Contemplate that for a moment, & if you think it's a good idea, find a mirror. Tom Snyder ^{Wikipedia, go ahead} 11:29, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

  Ah, yes, I see that refs 8, 16, and 22 on the Apollo Lunar Module article capitalize Lunar Module. But the rest do not. The older term Lunar Excursion Module is mostly used to define the acronym LEM, but is still only capped half the time (often in titles and headings); in sentences, it's not treated as a proper name. So where is your strong oppose coming from? Dicklyon (talk) 15:54, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

  You don't respond, and you comment again later with a different signature, suggesting we go with what NASA used back in the day, while not paying attention to what that was. Why not review the evidence and change your response in light of it? Dicklyon (talk) 05:37, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose, space, the final lower-case frontier? Per Trekphiler, "actual spacecraft designators". The historical importance of these names should also be predominate in Wikipedia's title choices as the leading encyclopedia on the planet (and soon to be beyond the planet as humans again go to the Moon and play among the stars with internet access). Randy Kryn (talk) 14:31, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

  So you guys aren't even going to look at the fact that most sources don't cap these? As for "actual spacecraft designators", perhaps some like "Apollo 13 Command Module" are, but there were many other Apollo command modules. Dicklyon (talk) 15:35, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

• Mild Oppose - Best to treat as a proper name, especially in the combined name, even though many sources do not. - BilCat (talk) 02:46, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
• OPPOSE...Is it just me, or is this page suddenly the subject of a lot of trivial nonsense?--RAF910 (talk) 02:55, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose (Defected to Support below) - We should consider that the relevant guidelines are not carved in stone, may need some work, and are descriptive not prescriptive. Or, we can simply rely on WP:IAR, which I will do now, indefinitely.
  1. I don't know why other sources should be given equal weight to NASA itself. It stands to reason that other sources are far less attentive to such trivial details (only Wikipedia takes this stuff so seriously, and we don't have deadlines), so we would be basing our decision on a collection largely composed of haphazard writing and spotty editing as to this capitalization. So what does NASA say? Recognizing that their treatment has likely evolved over the past 60 years, NASA web pages with dates within the past year appear to clearly favor capitalization (without being 100% consistent).
  2. It seems to me that a common name, being generic, must refer to more than one type of thing by definition. If it's a common name, there should be at least a couple of other uses of "command/service module", or even "command and service module". How about some examples of command and service modules in other fields, or even in aerospace for that matter? ―Mandruss ☎ 04:35, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

  I agree with you that "ignore all rules" is about the best argument that can be made for this one. Not good, but the best. The existence of other things called command and service module is not relevant here; the line of modules in the Apollo program are enough to show it's generic; there were many numbered specific ones that we can capitalize within that range. Dicklyon (talk) 06:22, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

  IAR is not the argument, it's merely the policy that lets me make an argument inconsistent with the letter of the guidelines, and not have my argument immediately thrown out by the closer. I disagree with your assertion that "Command/Service Module" became generic when NASA built the second copy. And so does NASA, apparently. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:40, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

  No, it became generic long before that, as you can see from all the NASA design and planning documents. Dicklyon (talk) 16:00, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• Support. This is a basic WP:NCCAPS and MOS:CAPS case. Independent reliable sources do not consistently capitalize this, nor does NASA's own documentation. (The opposers' "I like it", specialized-style fallacy, and blatant cherrypicking to just single out a few cases where NASA did capitalize it, and ignore the many examples where they did not, is just plain shameless.) The article's lead sentence is wrong and confusing (even to commenters here): "The Apollo Command/Service Module (CSM) was one of two principal components of the United States Apollo spacecraft, used for the Apollo program which landed astronauts on the Moon between 1969 and 1972." This is a misstatement that badly misleads readers into believing there was a single CSM used for 3 years and all missions during that time. CSMs are a general class of things, not a single thing. There were at least 20 CSMs, of varying designs. I looked at the first 50% of the cited sources, one by one, and they are consistently using lower-case for this, except: a) in headings/titles written in title case or all-caps; b) in names of specific actual CSM models, e.g. Apollo 4's Command Module 017, which are proper names (the same way M1126 Infantry Carrier Vehicle is but US military armored personnel carriers is not); and c) "sources" we should not be using at all, like Encyclopedia Astronautica, a WP:UGC site – and even that one uses lower case at least half the time. Aside: Even if NASA had been consistently capitalizing it (which they were and are not), we wouldn't care much per WP:INDY, WP:OFFICIALNAME, and WP:UNDUE. And because WP has its own style manual; it is not written in the bureaucratese of the GPO Style Manual that NASA and other US agencies follow.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  20:11, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
• Collateral damage: the same logic can be used on Apollo Lunar Module, even though n-grams support upper-casing. When the lower-casing editors get a foothold into an area they tend to give it a shake-up. This attempt to downgrade the upper-casing of Apollo mission details comes, not so ironically, in the lead up to the 50th anniversary of Apollo 8's historic trip to the Moon, which occurs in a few weeks. The Apollo 8 article, which will obtain large viewership leading up to and on the anniversary, is full of upper-cased Command Module and Lunar Module mentions. To want to change this long-standing correct upper-casing on the eve of a major anniversary of this historical event is quite something. Randy Kryn (talk) 16:16, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

  Note that Randy made his bolded oppose already above, so this bolded response looks like a double-vote kind of thing. Dicklyon (talk) 05:42, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

  Obvious argument to emotion fallacy, and sourcing misrepresentation. As has been pointed out to you many times before, the N-grams you attempt to rely on at RMs are faulty, as they do not exclude title-case headings, titles, captions, and other such cases which would be capitalized even if they were "Cup of Coffee" or "What I Did During Summer Break". You've had several years of people informing you how to use the tool correctly, and I've done so again at your talk page. If you do a proper N-gram search, you find the usage entirely mixed; the lower-case uses add up to about the same as the capitalized ones, and the capitalized version virtually never occurs except in a contextually specific reference to a particular module in a particular mission (even then, lower-case is very frequent). The over-capitalizations "an Apollo Lunar Module" and "Apollo Lunar Modules" appear in zero books ever indexed by Google; these only appear in lower-case form (other than "Apollo" being capitalized, of course). Our articles are about the Apollo lunar modules, and Apollo command/service modules (as classes). The confusion you are suffering (or pretending to suffer to try yet again to force capitalization on Wikipedia that is not used by most sources in the real world) is the exact same one that leads to not understanding that "Florida-class battleship" is not capitalized beyond the proper name it contains; you are failing to distinguish between a class of vehicles and a specific vehicle.PS: A problem with a search like this, on any topic like space craft, dinosaurs, sharks, pets, robots, and other topics that appeal to kids, is that many of the books indexed by Google are works intended for children, which are not reliable sources and which have a strong tendency to over-capitalize for emphasis. Same goes (especially for a topic like this one) for American primary- and secondary-school textbooks. If it were possible to winnow the N-grams of such material, you'd find the capitalization frequency even lower. We know this already, because few of the actually reliable sources we're citing in the articles and have vetted are applying the capitals other than to specific vehicles like Apollo 4, Command Module 017.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  18:43, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

• Support - It occurred to me that I actually own some books on Apollo. These will be more carefully edited for such minor detail than news pieces or even NASA web pages. While n-grams are opaque, requiring faith that what's being summarized is all relevant, these books are something I can actually see and touch. And they surely beat evidence-free arguments that capitalization is "obvious". I don't feel the need to look any further. Four out of my five books don't capitalize this, which is good enough for me.
  Note that I've seen no evidence that any of them treat single copies any differently than the collective term; i.e. e.g. "Apollo 14 command and service module" would be seen in those that don't capitalize. And, FWIW, "command and service module" appears to be far more common than "command/service module" in these books.
  1. "Apollo - The Race to the Moon", Charles Murray & Catherine Bly Cox, 1989. As far as I'm concerned, the definitive history of Apollo, 510 pages extensively footnoted. Uncapitalized.
  2. "A Man on the Moon", Andrew Chaikin, 1994. Uncapitalized.
  3. "Failure Is Not an Option", Gene Kranz, 2000. Capitalized.
  4. "Flight", Chris Kraft, 2001. Uncapitalized.
  5. "Digital Apollo", David A. Mindell, 2008. Uncapitalized. ―Mandruss ☎ 22:01, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

• Of course your good faith change is your choice, as most, but not all, editors accept decisions and comments in good faith. My concern is that if this lower-casing of a long-term title is, sadly, accepted, just a few weeks short of the historic Apollo 8 Moon orbits and eight months short of the 50th anniversary of the first humans walking on the Moon, then someone may take that as permission to automatically change the Wikipedia pages Apollo Lunar Module and Lunar Roving Vehicle, which both have n-gram majorities for upper-casing. Can you please take a look at the same books and see if those are capitalized or lower-cased? Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 22:29, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
• Although this NASA 50 year retrospective of the Apollo Lunar Module may cover my question as well as provide another source for the upper-casing of Command Module. Randy Kryn (talk) 23:09, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

• The outcome here is not relevant to other cases. The instructions for moves are clear that RM should be used if the move is likely to be (or "may be", I'm not sure of the exact wording) controversial. As it's crystal clear that such a move would be (not may be, not likely to be) controversial, doing it without an RM consensus should be strong grounds for a WP:DE complaint, which I would support if I were aware of it (I don't generally watch ANI). It would give you and others the ammunition you seek. That said:

• LM: All but Kranz uncapitalize, as you would expect. Kranz is an unpredictable mix, which reduces my opinion of the editing there, almost making it a case of four-out-of-four on CSM. Of course LM or LEM is used far more frequently in all books, for brevity.
• LRV: Kranz and Murray/Cox, "Lunar Rover". Mindell, "lunar roving vehicle". Craft and Chaikin, no index entry. ―Mandruss ☎ 23:13, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

• Kranz is the most important, as he was the head of the project. And if you didn't check out the NASA link I left above, please do so, both for this discussion and because you like the Apollo information - I'd suggest watching the NASA vintage Apollo 5 15-minute documentary linked to youtube on that page, I just saw it and learned a lot about the Lunar Module (they correctly call it a spacecraft). After reading the link and watching the video you may up your estimation of Kranz's upper-casing the terms, and maybe consider having another switcheroo. As for me complaining about anyone to some kind of formal tribunal, I've never done that or would do it unless under the most extreme of circumstances. Not my thing. Randy Kryn (talk) 03:30, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

• I haven't a shred of doubt that Kranz deferred to his editor(s) on this. Any student of the American space program knows that attention to unimportant pedantic detail was not Kranz's bag. My strong guess is that decisions about capitalization of names of spacecraft components were not made by flight directors, anyway; NASA's bureaucracy was far larger than that, and flight directors had far more important things to think about. So no re-switcheroo, sorry. But we're straying far too far into original research/personal knowledge, even WP:FORUM, so let's nip that in the bud. As for the rest of your comment, let's save that for the inevitable LM RM. ―Mandruss ☎ 04:01, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

@Mandruss and Randy Kryn: Are you guys looking at a different Kranz book than this one I found while working on refs at Talk:Apollo 8#Capitalization? I see nothing but lowercase modules in Kranz Failure is Not an Option, so I'm happy Randy sees this as "most important". Dicklyon (talk) 05:46, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

I'm unable to find the couple of occurrences of "Lunar Module" I'm sure I saw before, and I don't recall how I arrived at them. It would be tedious beyond description, scanning for any occurrence of lunar module, Lunar Module, LM, or LEM on each of the dozens of pages listed in the index entry (the index doesn't separate them, as they are different names for the same thing). I'm already blind enough, and it's possible the capitalized occurrences were fixed in a later edition anyway. Randy is not going to be swayed if it's shown that Kranz consistently lower-cases. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:23, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

• Support as follows:
  • The evidence at this point consists of three n-grams (Dicklyon, SMcCandlish and Randy Kryn) and a sample of good quality sources(?) by Mandruss. MOS:CAPS states: "only words and phrases that are consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources are capitalized in Wikipedia." (my underline for emphasis) The n-grams show at best, mixed usage not meeting the requirement a "substantial majority". The books, while only a small set, confirm this. According to the advice of MOS:CAPS, and on this evidence, the article should be moved/decapped.
  • Tony1 has noted that the opposing comments lack substantive justification. WP:CONSENSUS is not a vote or head-count.
  • An appeal to NASA's "authority" is a logical fallacy. It also falls to specialized-style fallacy.
  • Onomastics does not support this as being a proper name noun phrase:
    • Proper names are not descriptive - this is.
    • A single referent or (discrete set) does not make a name (appelative or "common" name) a proper name.
    • Proper names generally are not modified by articles or other determiners ("the" may be part of a weak proper name). Being able to use the indefinite article clearly indicates something is not a proper noun. I should not be able to say "An Apollo CSM docked to the Skylab space station"
    • A proper name cannot be pluralised or, if in the plural form, singularised (ie the Pleiades but not a Pleiade) CSM is pluralised in the article.
  • In the noun phrase, "Apollo" is acting as an attrbutive noun, to describe the "command module". While not used as a proper name, Apollo is capitalised because it is derived from a proper name. Capitalising part of a noun phrase (particularly an attributive noun such as Apollo) does not confer capitalisation on the whole phase or imply that the appelative to which the attribution applies is a proper name.

Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 00:51, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose. I've looked at the arguments above and they seem to be along the lines of "it shouldn't be" or "some people use lowercaps". Neither of those reasons convince me that the article should be renamed. Regards, Anameofmyveryown (talk) 20:42, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

  Where are you seeing such arguments? The arguments I see for moving to lowercase are about usage in sources relative to criteria in MOS:CAPS, using evidence from books n-grams, while argument to maintain uppercase are pretty content-free like yours. Dicklyon (talk) 04:43, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

  When I said "I've looked at the arguments above" I was referring to the arguments above - ie, earlier on the talk page. My comment was moved by somebody else after I made it so they may now occur lower down: I haven't checked. Regards, Anameofmyveryown (talk) 20:07, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

  WP:COMMONSENSE. That's the policy (or overriding 'above policy' language) which should be the backbone of a close. Randy Kryn (talk) 13:39, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

  @Anameofmyveryown: That isn't how this works. "I'm not convinced by your arguments" is not an argument. It's the start of one, but you need to follow with the reasons why capitalization is better, and arguments supported by evidence are stronger than arguments without evidence. For example, my evidence is (at least) four out of five books about the Apollo program. Examples of weak or non-existent arguments: "It's self-evident" and "It's common sense" (and out-of-process personalization of content disputes under the guise of !voting). ―Mandruss ☎ 07:00, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

  I'm not sure you're correct there. I read the arguments, I wasn't really convinced by them, so I opposed. Regards, Anameofmyveryown (talk) 20:07, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

• Comment, please be aware that the Apollo 8 page will be featured on December 27, during the 50th anniversary of the first piloted lunar mission. The logical upper-casing of Command Module (there are no other articles named 'Command Module', making it a proper noun) will, hopefully (in my personal opinion which is, yes, colored by emotion - this is humanity's first step away from the planet for Armstrong's sake!) be presented to feature readers in its long-term form. Randy Kryn (talk) 13:39, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
  • Randy, since when did sole existence qualify for "proper noun" status? And I'm not sure you've clearly defined that term. Tony (talk) 00:24, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose I may be contradicting myself, but I see these as proper nouns. TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 23:39, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

  Yes, you are contradicting yourself with respect to sources, but you already registered your Strong Oppose above with signature Tom Snyder. Please strike your re-vote and consider adding an explanation for your oppose since it seems to be so discordant with your "what did NASA call it" comments. Dicklyon (talk) 02:22, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

Please see section #More sources analyzed below before adding new !votes. Dicklyon (talk) 16:10, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

• This long-term stable title fulfills all five titling criteria, backed up by long-term significance. This provides the compelling evidence for keeping upper-casing per WP:COMMONSENSE - as does NASA's decision to upper-case the name in releases and videos during the 50th anniversary (as shown and linked to above). Yes, many books and articles have lower-cased Command Module during its actual use, or in later reporting. Yet in present time, as shown by NASA's present use, the Command Module is a proper noun, and Wikipedia commonsense and the occasional exception language should take priority. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:29, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

• Note to closer: [immediately above] Yes, many books and articles have lower-cased Command Module during its actual use, or in later reporting. This is explicit (though unintended) confirmation and acknowledgement that, per the criteria at MOS:CAPS (specifically wrt and iaw sources) the subject noun phrase (and hence the title of the article) should not be capped. Further, it does not meet the onomastic criteria to be considered a proper name per above (noting also that a proper noun is a single word and not a noun phrase). NASA is not an onomastic authority.

• On WP:COMMONSENSE: The short-cut is to part of Wikipedia:What "Ignore all rules" means (WP:WIARM). It links to Common sense, which "is sound practical judgment". Therefore, to claim a matter of common sense, one must be able, if challenged, to detail how it is a "sound practical judgment". To say: "It is common sense because it is sound and practical; therefore, it is common sense" is a circular argument and therefore non sequitor. Common sense is reasoning that is so apparent and fundamental that it requires no explanation but, should a logical and sound explanation be required, the underlying premises can and should be able to be laid out. WP:COMMONSENSE also links to Wikipedia:Editorial discretion, which, in turn, links to WP:CON. In short, editorial discretion is subject to consensus. WP:IAR is for when the letter of a rule is in conflict with the spirit of the rule and for unforeseen circumstances. It is a rule of exceptions to the rule but is subject to consensus. If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, ignore it. but, if challenged, there must be a consensus to sustain ignoring the rule. For a consensus, there must be strength in the case to ignore the rule: NASA did it; it is the anniversary; or, I think it is important, are not strong arguements. They are arguements of the type which are specifically identified as weak and even, inconsequential.

Citing WP:COMMONSENSE basically alone (withstanding inconsequential references per above), as primary justification in a discussion intended to establish consensus for deviation from the "rules" is circular and non sequitor. Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 16:45, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

• Support (and also change the slash to "and"): I am somewhat surprised to learn that the usage in high-quality independent reliable sources supports the lowercase, but so be it. Mandruss, for example, clearly confirms that high quality sources use lowercase. As SmCandlish and Cinderella157 point out especially effectively, the term is not a proper noun – the "command and service modules" constituted a set of things, and the Apollo command and service modules were a subset of that set – the term describes a group of things rather than a single thing. And if reliable sources confirm that lowercase is commonly used, then we have no good reason to use caps. I don't personally care too much what NASA does – independent sources should carry more weight – but NASA self-published material does not appear to indicate a need for capitalization either. The Apollo CSMs were really important things, but we shouldn't use caps as a way to indicate importance – Wikipedia should be a dignified encyclopedia, not sensationalistic journalism. When in doubt, Wikipedia generally favors lowercase – as it should. To me, the comments given in opposition don't seem to be providing any clear argument. My impression is that those seem to be come from the idea of wanting to use caps for things that are important, which is not the Wikipedia convention. —BarrelProof (talk) 17:36, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

• Support After realizing I have been emotionally attached to the capitals for going on 60 years, I've become persuaded to follow the consensus that seems to be forming ("be picky about which field you choose to die on"). I think the confusion and attachment to the capitals really stems from the use of CSM, LM, etc. as examples of NASA's attachment to acronyms (or initialisms if you prefer). I don't think we should be persuaded by "what other sources say", but go by our own MOS: WP:Initialisms; specifically expanded forms WP:EXPABBR which says to use capitals only for proper noun phrases (e.g. British Broadcasting Corp.) and not common noun phrases. The Apollo modules really aren't common nouns, though we might have talked ourselves into calling them that in order to distinguish them from really generic forms (such as the "command module" you might find as the tiny computer which controls your car's engine.) JustinTime55 (talk) 19:43, 11 December 2018 (UTC)