Talk:Arab Spring/Archive 12

The text of the Bahrain section does not concur with the sources used to justify it. At the end of the first paragraph of the Bahrain section states: "On 14 March, at the request of the Crown Prince, GCC Saudi Arabian troops entered the country,[231] and opened fire on the protesters, several of whom were killed.[232][233]" In the next paragraph, it states: "On 16 March 2011, the protesters' camp in the Pearl Roundabout was evacuated, bulldozed, and set on fire by the Bahraini Defense Force, riot police, and the Peninsula Shield Force, the military arm of the Gulf Cooperation Council, which intervened reportedly at King Hamad's behest.[239]" The articles cited do not support either sentence. They make no claims that Saudi troops were definitely part of the group that opened fire on protestors nor that they were involved in bulldozing the Pearl Monument. Additionally, none of the articles support the (probably true, but still unsourced) claim that the Crown Prince of Bahrain requested the Saudi troops. Finally, there is no evidence in these citations that supports the statement that King Hamad requested either the Saudi intervention in general (though that claim makes sense) nor their participation in razing the protestors' camps. If no one objects, I will change the first sentence to read:

"On 14 March, presumably at the request of the Bahraini government, over 1,000 Saudi Arabian troops entered the country. Operating under the aegis of the Gulf Cooperation Council's Peninsula Shield Force (PSF) the Saudi troops moved to protect Bahraini government facilities^[1]. There is no evidence that the Saudi troops fired on protestors^[2], although there were rumors of a PSF operation against the protestors^[3]. The United Arab Emirates sent 500 police officers to assist Bahraini efforts.^[4]."

I will change the second to read: "On 16 March, the Bahraini Defense Force evacuated, bulldozed, and set fire to the protestors' camp at the Pearl Roundabout, killing at least three.^[5][6]"

If anyone can provide sources that support any of the original claims, I'll gladly support leaving them intact.

Abu Casey (talk) 00:01, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Why are the colors for the Arab countries on the map all so very strange and unorthodox? Shouldn't primary and some secondary colors be used? (e.g. this cartogram- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:EU_net_budget_2007-2013_per_capita_cartogram.png) That'd make the map a bit clearer and less eye-weary, as well as conform to normal map standards. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm no cartographer. As a side note- Mauritania is the only Arab country without its own protest page. Should one be made? Or is nothing of relative importance happening there? Thanks— Mike44456 (talk) 01:27, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't see any strange and unorthodox colour here, my friend. Its fine for me actually. We start our colour from the bright colour which shows their country has no protests before, then by going darker and darker the country is said to have experience a major protests and then uprising and then regime overthrown. This map and that map you show it all the same MAP (as long as users can identify better). The same thing I checked on the CNN Unrest On The Arab World. They all have the same strange and unorthodox map just like us.

As for the Mauritania its goes the same way as Palestinian Territory too. Both has protests before, but because very little amount (if coveraged by media) of protests happen in those country, so its no point we make such huge article, instead we go by a simple and small text under this section Arab_Spring#Others, which to me this is enough for countries like Mauritania already. If, by hypothetically speaking Mauritania has turned into the Kuwaiti pathway then maybe we would consider making an independent article, but until now no such page is needed. 60.49.63.145 (talk) 02:57, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Hello to all Wikipedians and anonymous users. I want to make it clear about the Yemeni upcoming events. There was some preparation of whether Saleh is leaving Yemen so that they will have smooth transition period until the February 2012 presidential elections. In case if anybody thinks about changing it to revolution, I would like to say I reject that. Just because Saleh leaves Yemen it doesn't mean he was overthrown. Like what I have said earlier, somebody from the top ruling officials, be it the Vice-President or Saleh himself, must announce his resignation and it then confirmed by the officials and reliable medias. If that's the case, then we will stick back to square one, where the expecting overthrown date should be 21 February 2012, consider if Saleh plays by the rule stepping down (unless he wants to get out from the deal for the 4th time again). Thank you and have a nice day of editing. 60.49.63.145 (talk) 15:18, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Hi, I reverted the page to the last version by User:60.49.63.145, since I know that your edits almost always prove to be constructive, and it struck me as unfair that neither of the editors who reverted you were willing to discuss the issue. (I'm really not happy about having the 1RR applied to this page, the article was only really about the AI conflict because a certain two users made it so, and they haven't reared their heads in ages.)

However I'm not certain I understand your reasoning.

"Rejected. I delete it because when making summaries about the uprising, you don't need to mention about those unpopular events"

Could you explain further? Thanks, --Quintucket (talk) 19:28, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Actually it was my fault for not putting reasons, to be honest. What I meant is that when I try to compare the summaries of that Yemeni uprising with many other websites, I found out that when most of them write in the paragraph form, they just quote it from the January 27 protests (beginning of the protests), and then followed by the Feb 3 "Day of Rage", then followed by the May conflict escalation during the pre-assassination (June 3 attack) time. Since then, not much of special events happen except those daily protests. I mean, necessary to mention all this? Thats why I only remove this sentence:

"In the capital, Sana'a, the crowd marched towards the Presidential Palace, chanting anti-government slogans, despite the attempts of riot police to stop them. Three people were killed in the demonstrations, one of whom was killed by a hand grenade in Taiz. There were also reports of gunfire in Aden during a rally, and as the riots continued overnight protesters set fire to a local government building. Security forces killed one demonstrator, and killed another demonstrator during protests the following day"

Since this is not the Yemeni uprising article itself, but rather a summary, would you really need to mention about a person killed by hand grenade, or gunfire, or protesters set fire to a building? These events aren't so special so its not required to put it. Some of these happens in other Arab countries like Egypt, E.G. protesters set fire on the NDP HQ, but it was not stated here. Regardless, the rest of them are all fine.

But don't worry. If you all disagree of what I said, you are welcome to revert it. 60.49.63.145 (talk) 07:55, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

You definitely have a point. It's not possible to include everything on this page, so something like that belongs more on the Yemeni Uprising page. An abnormally large protest, an assassination attempt or the death/resignation of high profile government officials are the kinds of things that might go on this page as a summary. Jeancey (talk) 08:08, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Seems like many people tend to focus more on popular uprisings and revolutions in Tunisia, Egypt, Libya, Yemen, Syria and Bahrain, this is my discovery of those infamous Arab countries which suffer smaller protests. Any edits are welcome, if wish to.

Algeria:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5ic2rj6WFjN-Y4BuxjoEoECmPaBRg?docId=CNG.4e49b326c0b56a603281add8e86b2b2d.631
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/12/us-algeria-housing-protests-idUSTRE80B12A20120112

Jordan:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/12/us-algeria-housing-protests-idUSTRE80B12A20120112 60.49.63.145 (talk) 14:56, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. I'm not certain that there's enough to add to the main article yet, given the summaries in this article are short and the articles seem to say "there's still problems here," but we definitely need to keep the main articles updated 2010–2011 Algerian protests and 2011–2012 Jordanian protests. You've also reminded me that we ought to check the status of the Moroccan, Kuwaiti, Sudanese, and Iraqi protests, whose main articles are listed as ongoing, but are still named for last year. Or have you done that already? --Quintucket (talk) 02:05, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Actually, I have updated the main page for Algeria. I may do the same for other countries, unless someone else gets to it first (*hinthint*) --Quintucket (talk) 02:48, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Damn it! I accidentally paste the wrong link about Jordan. Two self-immolation deaths were reported. http://channel6newsonline.com/2012/01/clashes-erupt-during-pro-reform-protest-in-jordan/

No, I didn't do that. I tend to concentrate more on Yemen and Bahrain. That's why I said everybody are welcome to edit it. But I move that some of the countries like Morocco, Jordan, should not use the word Subdued or Ended since there are still major demonstration going on once a week or months, though not necessary every day. 60.49.63.145 (talk) 08:03, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

I have update many parts of the 2011 Yemeni uprising, but still many needs to be changed. I was hoping that some of the users could join me contribute the editing of Yemeni uprising as many of them are still focusing on the 2011 Syrian uprising and the 2011 Bahraini uprising. 60.49.63.145 (talk) 04:16, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

In this edit, a template was removed with the edit comment: "Removing template because template size is exceeded". i think this means the problem is having too many templates included in a single article, when all the sub-sub and sub-sub-sub etc. inclusions are carried out. Is this right?

In any case, the "dot" template usage in related-topic templates can be replaced by the listclass=hlist structure. This reduces the number of templates needed by a huge amount, and avoids having to cut/paste or otherwise generate non-ascii characters! i've updated the KSA, Bahrain, and Syria Arab Spring templates this way. The negative side of this change is that the default dots are probably a tiny bit smaller (they were already smaller than the dots in the Egyptian and Libyan templates, i think), but IMHO that's a small price to pay. The dots are really there just for spacing.

My changes probably reduced the number of included templates (dot templates) in Arab Spring by at least 100 (though i haven't counted exactly), without loss of any semantic or syntactic structure, AFAIK. Apologies if something got changed, though i tried to check carefully.

TODO: i'll let someone else do this for the other templates - the rendered change (change visible in a browser window) would be stronger for the Egyptian and Libyan cases, because they have big fat dots (at the moment, anyway).

Boud (talk) 23:28, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

The country has witnessed its largest political protests ever, there's been violence between demonstrators and security forces, and now the government has resigned: I think it's time to give the 2011 Kuwaiti protests their own page. -Kudzu1 (talk) 17:24, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

• Support - clearly notable.Greyshark09 (talk) 18:59, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
• Support - Shouldn't be upgraded? --Smart (talk) 05:46, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Done. Article probably needs some work, but I'm slammed in RL and I'd appreciate someone else stepping in. Might help to know Arabic. -Kudzu1 (talk) 06:23, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

• Strong support — Kuwait is experiencing major protests relating to government corruption. It should absolutely have its own page. Master&Expert (Talk) 10:42, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

In the death toll table it is mentioned that the count is nil. But I clearly remember there was couple of death cases in early demonstrations of the 'Bedoun' (which mean 'without' as expression of being stateless). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mhd196 (talk • contribs) 18:26, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

This spring is killing hundreds of christians, who became the most persecuted religious group in the world, and the article does not even cite it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.250.57.64 (talk) 17:11, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Please provide citations to reliable sources and we'll take a look. Cheers, Khazar (talk) 17:18, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Forgetting news sources I know to be obviously biased (such as WND and Fox News), it appears that things have been a mixed bag for Christians. In a Google news source, I find this, this, and this, among others.

That said, I think it's really an Egypt specific phenomenon, and the focus should be on the Egyptian Revolution article, which is currently portraying things as unambiguously positive for the Copts. Only a handful of Arab countries even have notable Christian populations, (Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Iraq, and the West Bank), not counting migrant workers in the fairly stable Gulf States. I suspect we'll see similar events in Syria when Assad is ousted (right now the news mostly expresses fears of the new Syria), but I suspect that like Egypt it will be a mixed bag: more freedom overall, coupled with more opportunities for Muslim fundamentalists to attack minorities. Arab-world Christians definitely aren't the most persecuted religious group in the world. Perhaps you should talk to some Ahmadis in Pakistan or Bahais in Iran. --Quintucket (talk) 18:42, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

The anonymous users has "complaint" about we didn't put up the statement regarding persecution of Christians. But before we doing this so, has anyone wants to put up where a Tunisian Jew are allowed to run in elections and no one cares? 60.49.62.66 (talk) 03:17, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

The difference, I believe, is that Jews are no better or worse off in Tunisia, relative to the rest of the population. (If you can find a source stating otherwise, please show us.) That said, I reiterate that this seems to be an Egypt-specific issue, at least for now, and belongs in the Egypt article. --Quintucket (talk) 07:45, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

I just want to discuss about this topic. There are several anonymous users tries to put the end date of the Tunisian Revolution (which later I revert it back to Ongoing). Given that I saw the end date of the Libyan civil war is 23 October 2011, when is the exact end date for the Tunisia and Egypt? How about possible if put 14 January for Tunisia and 11 February for Egypt? 60.49.62.66 (talk) 03:51, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

A quick look at both countriess article tell they both are still on going, currently in a transitional phase. Egypt is better organised, while Tunisia isn't. Civil war might have ended in Libya, but they too are in a transitional phase. Bahraini Activist ^{Talk to me} 05:14, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

How about saying the day Ben Ali and Mubarak were overthrown are their end date, then making the rest of the incident as post-revolution? I saw one at CNN and the others in The Economist. 60.49.62.66 (talk) 07:43, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I think that makes sense, in the same way that we don't (for example) include the turmoil in Romania under Ion Iliescu as part of the Romanian Revolution. --Quintucket (talk) 08:03, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I completely agree with that. The Aftermath of the 2011 Libyan civil war page is a good model. -Kudzu1 (talk) 19:45, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Little known events taking place in the Maldives. http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia/2012/02/20122765334806442.html are they related to the Arab Spring?--Reader1987 (talk) 09:18, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

I'd say that belongs under Impact of the Arab Spring. —Quintucket (talk) 18:11, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Maldives is not an Arab state despite its majority being Muslim. Its national language is Dhivehi, a language that is influenced by Indian language. 60.49.60.158 (talk) 03:32, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

One of the Arab Spring shot just won the World Press Photo award. Should we mention this? 60.49.60.158 (talk) 05:48, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Can somebody provide a scholarly citation for calling this "the Arab Awakening"? I have been studying the Middle East for years, and the Arab Spring since its beginning, and I have yet to actually come across somebody seriously coining the events as "Arab Awakening." The Arab Awakening usually refers to this, an Arabist movement that began in the 19th century. I won't remove the label and simply ask for discussion for now, but I will edit the Arab Awakening page from redirect to a disambiguation page. -- Crushti (talk) 21:44, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Kenneth Pollack has edited a [http://www.amazon.com/Arab-Awakening-Transformation-Brookings-Institution/dp/0815722265/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1329179960&sr=8-1 volume] called The Arab Awakening that analyzes the Arab Spring. I've seen it referred to in a few other places as Arab Awakening (a quick google search will give examples), although the Arab Spring clearly seems to be the preferred term. Abu Casey (talk) 00:44, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

As of January 2012, the link Timeline of the Arab Spring is a red link, but on the search page for it , it can be seen that apparently every involved country has its own article on the subject. I think there is motivation for having an overall timeline, potentially including Template:Arab Spring using EasyTimeline. Mikael Häggström (talk) 15:08, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

I agree that a common timeline has to be created, but it should only contain important events while keeping the less important events in the specific articles. P.S. that template definitely needs updating. Bahraini Activist ^{Talk to me} 18:34, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree. Mikael Häggström (talk) 13:46, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Sudan:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/17/us-sudan-arrests-idUSTRE81G1JM20120217

Jordan: (LOL! The demands for ouster of the third King-appointed Prime Minister)

http://presstv.com/detail/227280.html

60.49.60.158 (talk) 14:24, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

This is the best internet article I have seen on the topic. PPdd (talk) 02:44, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

It appears that Saleh is mentioned to still be in power while he had signed the GCC initiative and started the transfer of power. Please update the article. I find that the Yemen section is up-to-date but the Overview is not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wsaqaf (talk • contribs) 11:59, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Saleh has not yet stepped down. --Smart (talk) 03:41, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Please view this before making such hasty and pre-mature statements:

Talk:Arab_Spring#Yemeni Uprising or Revolution?.

Saleh never steps down. What really happens on November 23 is that Saleh just signed the deal, and agrees to step down only, that means he's not really stepping down yet. Besides, if you check most of the reliable sources and news media they will keep mentioning "...outgoing President Ali Abdullah Saleh..." which is another evidence that he hasn't step down yet. About the power transfer thing, you have already mentioned "started the transfer of power", so he may have transferred 10% of his power, but still there are 90% of the cabinet which he keep to himself. How's that suppose to mean he has step down already? What if he started to break his promise again? Please read this: Talk:Arab_Spring#About Yemen

60.49.63.145 (talk) 05:29, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Even if Saleh steps down, he appointed Abd al-Rab Mansur al-Hadi as his successor. Al-Hadi was vice president since 1994 (over 17 years), so it's not really a revolution or even overthrowing of the government. Also, unlike interim leaders in Tunisia or Egypt (Mebazaa and Tantawi), al-Hadi will probably stay in power for a full term after next elections. HeadlessMaster (talk) 14:05, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

I move that Yemen be changed to light blue on the map (Governmental changes) since Saleh has officially stepped down and the vice president is now in power. This should not be considered a revolution. User: Heresbubba53190

I absolutely disagree with Heresbubba53190's statement. Ben Ali left his prime minister in charge, Mubarak left the armed forces in charge. We still call those revolutions. The 1905 revolution in Russia left the Tsar still in power and we still call the Hungarian Revolution a revolution. Why then, is Yemen not a revolution? User: Dweedman —Preceding undated comment added 23:18, 23 December 2011 (UTC).

Agree with User: Dweedman here. If Saleh has stepped down, then it was obviously due to the popular uprising against him, and meets the criteria for a government overthrown designation. And if we're going to call Hungary 1956 a revolution, then Yemen 2011 certainly should qualify.74.131.99.14 (talk) 03:22, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

For HeadlessMaster, it really doesn't matter if Hadi has ruled Yemen as a VP for 14 to 99 years (just exaggerating saying) but the policy of the Yemeni protesters is to bring down the regime of Ali Abdullah Saleh, which means starting his ouster. If Saleh steps down, then it's consider a government overthrown. Likewise when it comes to Tunisia, when Ben Ali steps down, then although the Prime Minister Ghannouchi who has ruled Tunisia since 1999 has take over, we still call it a Government Overthrown. Saying Hadi takes over Yemen is not consider a Government Overthrown is actually consider a POV (point-of-view). Wikipedia is based on reliable media and sources only.

For Heresbubba53190 and Dweedman, yes the Yemenis are calling it a revolution. They are already asking the overthrow of the regime. Even until now the protesters keep claiming that they want to "continue their revolution", so its irrevelant to call it Governmental Changes. Besides, isn't Yemen has already implementing governmental changes long time ago? That's the reason why we labelled as "Sustained civil disorder and governmental changes".

But nobody has make any official statements such that Saleh has step down, so we cannot call it Government Overthrown for now. We cannot assume that because the GCC deal has expired in December 23 then we can say "Saleh has steps down already". Like I said earlier in this topic. 60.49.63.145 (talk) 03:58, 24 December 2011 (UTC)#

Saleh is gone, as it says in this article, "Since Saleh handed over the reins to his deputy under the Gulf peace accord, a new government headed by an opposition leader has been formed. A presidential election is scheduled for February." Goltak (talk) 20:34, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Nope, dude. Saleh is not gone. According to that source you show it, you forgot the word "outgoing President Ali Abdullah Saleh" which means he is still the "king" (just mockingly saying) of Yemen. Let me ask you a question, do you remember June 3 when Saleh got attacked in his presidential palace? Before he was sent to Saudi Arabia for medical treatment, he transfer most of his power to his buddy VP Hadi, but did he really step down? No, I don't think so. All transferred power were return back when he came back to Yemen at September. So the one thing the people should realize is that: "Transferring power ≠ Stepping down". Because Saleh forms a new government and he may lose his power it does not mean he was overthrown. Also remember in Egypt February 10? Mubarak once also transfer power to his VP Suleiman but he hasn't gone yet and claims wants to held office until the next election, but only later to formally decided to step down at next day. Besides, most mainstream media and reliable sources, when talks about how many were overthrown, until now they keep saying "Tunisia, Egypt, Libya" this 3 countries, but hasn't mention Yemen yet. I think you know why is that already. Saleh needs to formally step down on February, then we can call it Government Overthrown in this article and the Yemeni article as Yemeni Revolution whatever you all want to call it, depending what the reliable sources says if Saleh is really overthrown or not.60.49.63.145 (talk) 04:50, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Can't wait for Feburary. Goltak (talk) 18:27, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Sorry to be cruel with you for a while but we don't CARE if you can't wait at February. Thats your own problem. I hate to say that but most people just always seems to rush, rush, rush like Sonic the Hedgehog and eventually, what happens? Splash all the "paint" through the wall and run like a madman because they say "MOM, DAD, I CAN'T WAIT"? I want to make it clear for you. This article is not a NEWS article, this is a HISTORY article, articles depicts historic events with historic people and places. Also, Wikipedia is always about WP:RS. Repeat, Reliable Sources. You say you can't wait, but the protesters, news and the world can wait, even me and other users can too. Why must the article be changed just because there are some people here cannot wait? Come on, don't you have other important things to do other than just editing Wikipedia all the time? I know there are important things in our lifes that we "can't wait" rather than can't wait for February!

Quite so, as of this date where I'm gonna sign this signature soon, has the article talks about "ousted President A.A. Saleh", or "former President..." or "Tunisia, Egypt, Libya, Yemen"? All I see until now is just outgoing President Saleh. Besides, the protesters and the officials, through their point-of-view already starts to worry that Saleh is going to take back the power again!! Here, take a look: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle-east/suspicions-rising-that-yemens-president-seeks-to-scuttle-deal-meant-to-end-his-rule/2012/01/05/gIQAL7cxcP_story.html 60.49.63.145 (talk) 07:40, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

• FACEPALM**FACEPALM*FACEPALM*. No genius, I did not mean I could LITERALLY not wait for Feburary so I'm going to change NOW, NO!!!! I MENT that I'm LOOKING FOWARD to when that muderer steps down.... I'm sorry if this EXPRESSION is not commonly used from your native country... Geesh calm down a little please. Try not to take it so literally, of course I can wait until Feburary to update the article, ALL I was saying was that I was looking foward to it. Although I hope Saleh doesn't try to seize power yet again. I'm sorry if you've never heard this expression before I was just simply innocently making a statement.(talk) 14:39, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Okay. If you say so. Sorry for that. Well you could at least tell us that you aren't mean literally about "can't wait for February". After all, we don't know if you simply meant it directly or indirectly.

Its true. While you have that feeling, I guess me too. Because through my analysis the international media does not cover the Yemeni uprising more than the Syrian uprising (which I believe there was an alleged political bias among these medias) so I tend to focus more on Yemen. Tho so I don't have much time to really pay attention to Wikipedia as I have other things to do. Like you, I also want the fall of Ali Abdullah Saleh, and knowing by timeline and analyze you can notice Saleh has better tactics and tricks to stay in power than the defiant late Libyan leader Gaddafi. I may cross the line, so again, sorry for that. 60.49.63.145 (talk) 15:47, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

No harm done. When can we update the map of political change, I've noticed that it's now outdated, considering Saleh has stepped down and all. Goltak (talk) 20:00, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

• Question about that though. Should it really be called "government overthrown"? His vice president took charge after an election, I wouldn't really call that "overthrown". Jeancey (talk) 20:09, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Ben Ali was succeeded by his prime minister (of 12 years) in Tunisia and it is still considered an overthrown government. The goal of the protesters was the resignation of Saleh. They overthrew him. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.143.165.212 (talk) 22:55, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

No. The election is on Tuesday, and there are at least 60% turnouts. But the election doesn't signal the end of Ali Abdullah Saleh. I have already gave a link about the Yemen post article, stating that the inauguration of Hadi will be held on next Monday. The inauguration of Hadi only signals the end of Ali Abdullah Saleh. So until then, Saleh still remains as the President of Republic of Yemen, and Hadi was the Acting President of Yemen. No government overthrown yet. 60.49.60.158 (talk) 04:15, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

The Yemeni Vice President Abd-Rabbu Mansour Hadi recently won an election to replace Ali Abdullah Saleh as President, should we change it to "Revolution"? 48Lugur (talk) 02:51, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

It already won, but there was no inauguration of Hadi as The President of Yemen Republic yet. His inauguration is on the "next week". So Saleh wasn't overthrown yet until Hadi was sweared in.
http://yemenpost.net/Detail123456789.aspx?ID=3&SubID=4778&MainCat=3
60.49.60.158 (talk) 03:43, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

News Update: Hadi supposedly is to sworn in next monday, but now he was expected to be sworn in to power by today Saturday morning.
http://yemenpost.net/Detail123456789.aspx?ID=3&SubID=4786&MainCat=3
60.49.60.158 (talk) 03:25, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Hadi has finally sweared in as the president of Yemen. This marks the overthrown of Ali Abdullah Saleh already. Anybody can now openly edit his post-revolt in Yemen. 60.49.60.158 (talk) 10:28, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

artillery attacks on a city is far off of civil disorder. --Reader1987 (talk) 13:40, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

I know when I was following the Yemeni article, there are a lot of shelling between the Hashid tribes and the Republican Guards. Yet, it was still labelled as uprising. So, it maybe a far off of civil disorder in Syria, but it was still called Uprising. 60.49.60.158 (talk) 05:24, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

i think that it is time to syria's status to a higher status than Sustained civil disorder Alhanuty (talk) 02:37, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

The article is way too long — over twice the size of the suggested max. If someone would like to address that (with spin-off articles and sprucing), that would be great. That would make it easier for readers to load and read. The article is already unwieldy and out-of-guidelines large. As an ongoing event, we can anticipate that it will only get longer.

The article is now over 200,000 bytes, making it one of the 300 longest articles at the Project. WP:SIZERULE states: "Some useful rules of thumb ... What to do ... > 100 KB ... Almost certainly should be divided".--Epeefleche (talk) 21:03, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

I totally agree. This article is longer than those on the Revolutions of 1848 and the Napoleonic Wars. This is a problem with Wikipedia: current events are weighed too heavily in importance. This article should be 1/10th the size — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.236.177.224 (talk) 02:53, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

I have a number of concerns about the use of "Arab Spring". Whilst I don't wish to cause any dissent it does seem that this phrase does resonate with and imply a form of pan-arabism. Pan-Arabism has been criticised as being racist, inciting prejudice against and downplaying the role of non-Arab peoples, such as the Berbers, Turks, Jews, Persians, Maronites and many others.

What is forthcoming from those countries that have changed their regimes (with or without outside intervention) is a "national" agenda rather than any form of regional or pan-arabic aspirations. Add to that the disconnection of "Arab Spring" from the aspirations of Palestinian Arabs and the phrase becomes almost meaningless. Even so, the phrase is being used and is being given meaning.

The phrase is being used by respected organisations, for example, Human Rights Watch's Executive Director, Kenneth Roth states: http://www.hrw.org/world-report-2012/time-abandon-autocrats-and-embrace-rights"The Arab Spring is a transformative moment, an historic opportunity for a long-suppressed people to seize control of its destiny. Yet the transformation will not be easy. The people of the region, like everywhere else, deserve the world’s support for their rights as they embark on this long-awaited venture. It is time for the Arab exception to end."

The Arab Spring or Arab Uprising may well be part of a much larger social change movement. "According to research by the Chinese Academy of Governance, the number of protests in China doubled between 2006 and 2010, rising to 180,000 reported 'mass incidents.' The uprisings are responses to myriad issues, primarily official corruption, government land grabs, Tibetan autonomy, and environmental problems."

In Dec 2011, Former Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev called on Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin to resign as tens of thousands of demonstrators cheered opposition leaders and jeered the Kremlin in the biggest show of outrage in Putin's 12-year-rule.

Recent events in the Caucasus, including South Ossetia, Dagestan and Georgia may be an extension of the purported "Arab Uprising" but are excluded because of the regionalisation to the Middle East and North Africa as associated with the concept of "Arab". Events in sub-saharan Africa may similarly be excluded.

As a new contributor, I am unsure of how these highly political aspects should be dealt with. Simply ignoring them does give them a political meaning.

Jonlincbrown (talk) 17:20, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

• These issues aren't ignored. The larger ethnic scope is included in the artice (see Arab Spring#Ethnic scope) while the influence of the Arab Spring outside MENA is dealt with breafly within the article as well as having its own separate article (see Arab Spring#Impact of the Arab Spring and Impact of the Arab Spring). Thank you for your interest, and if you feel that the above articles/sections have missed something, please feel free to mention it. ArnoldPlaton (talk) 15:11, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments.

If you look at the citations for the use of "Arab Spring" the first to use the Title as such is a Jewish Magazine ^ Miller, Aaron. "What Is Israel’s Next Move In The New Middle East?". Moment Magazine. Moment Magazine. http://www.momentmag.com/moment/issues/2011/06/IsraelsNextMove.html. Retrieved 5/6/2011..

Earlier citations use "Arab spring..." and "Arab uprising..." or "Arab awakening...". In English, there is a very important difference.

Look again at the demise of Pan-Arabism and it is given, in part, as the Six Day War in 1967.

Is the promotion of an "Arab Spring" an effort to recreate a new variant of the earlier and flawed Pan-Arabism?

Part of the problem may well be "connectivity" related on my part. Sometimes a page only partially and inconsistently loads, leaving some text missing. That does cause some confusion on my part for which I apologise.

You know, just quoting somebody's opinion from a blogger in AngryArab blogspot, the founder claims that the term Arab Spring is an insult towards those Arabs who had been killed in a bloody clashes with government forces. 60.49.60.158 (talk) 08:15, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

I think Jon's assertions are flawed. Actually, while there has indeed been a somewhat diverse ethnic scope to these protests (especially the Berbers and the Kurds) I certainly wouldn't dismiss a sense of pan-Arabism. In fact as any observer knows these protest movements have inspired each other at a grassroots level and have even led to surges of grassroots nationalism, particularly regarding the Palestinian cause, solidarity protests for other Arab countries going through uprisings or protest movements and a general desire for increased Arab integration. Analysts have argued that this new pan-Arabism has been "down-up" versus "up-down". Whereas in the past, it was the elites, be they military officers, politicians, Arab notables or tribal elders, who led the pan-Arab movement, this "new Arabism" is led by the general population and grassroots activists. In fact it has been the ruling regimes who constantly suppressed/repressed pan-Arabism in their countries. This is something that should definitely be included in the article. I might press for this later but in any case editors here should take note of the feelings of pan-Arab unity emanating from this liberation/reform movement (liberation from oppressive regimes and foreign influence). See the following articles for more perspective on this matter:

• Gauging Arab public opinion Al Jazeera
• The new “Arabism” from below Ahram Online
• The resurrection of pan-Arabism Al Jazeera
• In post-Mubarak Egypt, the rebirth of the Arab world Washington Post
• How Nasser shaped the Arab Spring Al Jazeera
• The Big Think Behind the Arab Spring Foreign Policy
• The “Arab Spring: ”Rebirth or Final Throes of Pan-Arabism?
• Pan-Arabism and the Arab Spring

--Al Ameer son (talk) 04:06, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

I agree with much that Al Ameer Son says. Journalists are often under pressure to provide short explanations that do not adequately explain social complexities and "Arab Spring" does that though in a very one dimensional way. There is a view from the 'outside looking in' that is different from those opinions held from the 'inside looking out'. Many on the outside looking in do not appreciate or understand how Arab societies used to operate. The population explosion in the Middle East and North Africa has made the less structured but semi-democratic channels of communication much less workable. Hence the grassroot movements that are demanding change and the reqirement for the introduction of more democratic institutions. However, to compare the process with historical events in Europe (see Strafor: "1848: History's Shadow Over the Middle East, By Robert D. Kaplan | March 14, 2012") and to then predict similar outcomes does the situation few favours and provides an ongoing basis for criticism. I still suggest that the pan-Arabism of Nasser (up-down) does the less formal grassroots movement (down-up) a disservice. The grassroots movement will take a long time to achieve many of its objectives but that process is underway and should not be compressed into an encapsulated and stereotyped "moment".

Jonlincbrown (talk) 13:18, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

The Arab Network for Human Rights Information claims that the Saudi Arabian protests are spreading through universities, with protests in six different towns around Saudi Arabia in the past two weeks. For the moment this info is only in Timeline_of_the_2011–2012_Saudi_Arabian_protests_(from_January_2012)#Mid-March. If or when enough new or significant info accumulates, then it would make sense to update the lead of that timeline page and more or less copy this updated lead to the timeline summary on 2011–2012_Saudi_Arabian_protests. In turn, updating the lead of 2011–2012_Saudi_Arabian_protests and possibly the corresponding summary of Arab Spring#Saudi Arabia would then be reasonable, IMHO.

As people seem to regularly discover on this article, Arab Spring keeps becoming too long. If people follow my suggestions, then the 2011–2012_Saudi_Arabian_protests article may be able to avoid expanding too fast...

Boud (talk) 01:11, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

I've spent a little time looking at various Bahrain entries on Wiki and it seems that this is the page is now to be source of the other Bahrain protest/uprising pages/entries. Makes sense to me.

But I've seen a worrying trend with some of the linking (mainly elsewhere in the other Bahrain articles, but see below). There are often links used that appear to be in there solely to skew the NPOV of the article. Take an innocuous statement like the one in the first paragraph on this page: "To date, . . . civil uprisings have erupted in Bahrain[5]" That's perfectly neutral. Click on the link and it takes you to: "Death turns ‘harmless man’ into Bahrain uprising’s martyr." Now, that's a valid source - AFAIK the Toronto Star is a decent enough paper - but it's unnecessary to bring the emotive aspect into the mix yet (and possibly not necessary later as there's the BICI report to refer to). The actual news item doesn't relate to the big demonstrations nor to (as I'd suggest it should) the initial demonstrations. Reuters is always a pretty good baseline, and this is their article on 14 Feb, "Protester killed in Bahrain 'Day of Rage'" http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/02/14/uk-bahrain-protests-idUKTRE71D1G520110214

Now that's just one link, but I've found many more across the Bahrain articles (along with things like linking to Jew instead of Jewish in the Religion section etc.)

I've also seen a lot of multiple linking. Sometimes it's necessary, but in many cases a single link to the BICI report (with page ref) would give a neutral and more thoroughly researched link than multiple links to various papers/channels. Certainly, where possible, I'd like to avoid linking to BCHR (which I see this article doesn't) as the news source, as they are obviously going to be partial. Just as I'd like to try to avoid linking to government sources (which doesn't appear to be an issue :) ). Bromley86 (talk) 15:00, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Daw tag added. Boud (talk) 22:14, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm just about to undo Bahraini Activist's [10:17 21 March 2012] edits. Prior to my edits the Bahrain section displayed bias (general tone, no mention of pro-government demo, GCC troops shot protestors, etc.) and was not consistent with other sections in this article (i.e. too much detail, with 18 lines vs. 17 for Syria and 14 for Libya when those two are more important/intense). Now it's even more NPOV, i.e: emphasises size of opposition protests (an minimises pro-government ones), machine guns, Bloody Thursday, violently cleared etc. Again, compare to Syria & Libya. Some of the inclusions are valid from a neutral point of view, but are probably not valid in this article from a brevity point of view. I'm sure that they must already be in the Main Article on the Bahrain protests.

There's overlinking. The BICI report provides an authoritative source. In my version I did sometimes use news sources at the same time as the BICI report, but only to provide NPOV context. Bahraini Activist's linking is clearly an attempt to tell a story off-article which should rather be dealt with in the Main Article.

Given that I was pointed to this article when I started tidying up the Bahrain article, and given my NPOV concerns, I'd ask that we discuss any changes line by line to reach consensus.

Finally a question. Are those page references irritating? If so, I can move them down to the References, but obviously that'll create ~15 entries there rather than the current single one.

I'll start. I assume we're good with the first 2 sentences? The third was mostly unchanged, except for the 3->4 deaths and the hundreds injured.

Regarding the deaths. BICI mentions three (Mr Mahmood Maki Ahmed Abutaki; Mr Ali Mansoor Ahmed Ahmed Khudair; and Mr Ali Ahmed Abdulla Ahmed), but perhaps someone died of wounds later? Who was it?

Regarding the injuries. I didn't include (a) for brevity and (b) because there were injuries on both sides (although I'd expect the severity to be asymmetric). I'd suggest it's best handled in the Main Article, where we can go into detail on birdshot etc. The number injured has been reported by Al Jaz (who overestimated the deaths, so perhaps not the best source, but it's what I can remember off the top of my head) as "dozens" rather than "hundreds", which concurs with the figure in the BICI (over 50). Even if corrected though, I'd still suggest not including the injuries as it's then necessary to mention injuries to the other side and, although serious, would likely not have been as much of a driver for future protest as the deaths. Summary article etc, and we're already up at the upper limit, so every word counts. Bromley86 (talk) 14:22, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

First, we have to establish that BICI is a government commission (i.e. it was established by the King and fully financed from the government - pages 1 and 9). So the government is bound by it's findings which it accepted, but those findings were criticized by parts of the opposition and others , . Second, since you initiated this discussion, we'll start from sentence 1. Comments should be added below every sentence, if you agree skip it or say so. I will only do the first now, but you and others can move on. Keep report page numbers. Please note that English is not my first language, and thus grammatical mistakes can be fixed without changing the meaning of content. Mohamed CJ ^(talk) 16:33, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Fair enough. However, in terms of neutrality regarding factual statements, the BICI report appears to be fairly good. Certainly when I scanned that Bahrain Watch link that you supplied, the accusations seemed to be about omissions in terms of recommendations rather than incorrect facts. That link also nicely makes my point about the (entirely understandable) lack of neutrality and objectivity that will always be the case with activist sites. In the section on "Baltageyya" (vigilantes) it says, "In Bahrain, the Baltageyya were police by day and thugs by night, or were newly recruited loyalists trained to attack protestors and instigate clashes. Few were of Bahraini origin; most were newly naturalized foreigners or just paid migrant expat workers." However, the link provided to support that statement is to an article that talks about some Bangladeshis allegedly being forced to attend a pro-opposition rally, not being armed and forced to attack people. Big difference. Bromley86 (talk) 20:37, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Please use This version when quoting sentences, since this is the one that was reverted. Mohamed CJ ^(talk) 21:00, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Happy to do so. I have a question though; is that a standard WP policy, because in this particular case it might have been easier to take the one reverted to (rather than from) as the majority of edits are additions to it? Bromley86 (talk) 20:37, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

I don't think it is. I've searched in policies about talk pages and dispute resolution, but they don't mention it.

Anyway, since you bring the brevity point a lot (sometimes over single words or two words), I've decided to show you how the section would look after the edits I suggested took place (same length as Syria and Yemen sections): (If you have comments, still add them in the line by line discussion)

The protests in Bahrain started on 14 February, and were initially aimed at achieving greater political freedom and respect for human rights; they were not intended to directly threaten the monarchy.^{[2][3]: 162–3} Lingering frustration among the Shiite majority with being ruled by the Sunni government was a major root cause, but the protests in Tunisia and Egypt are cited as the inspiration for the demonstrations.^[2][3]: 65 The protests were largely peaceful until a pre-dawn raid by police on 17 February to clear protestors from Pearl Roundabout in Manama, in which police killed four protesters.^{[3]: 73–4} Following the raid, some protesters began to expand their aims to a call for the end of the monarchy.^[4] On 18 February army forces opened fire on protesters when they tried to reenter the roundabout, fatally wounding one.^{[3]: 77–8} The following day protesters reoccupied Pearl Roundabout after the government ordered troops and police to withdraw.^[5][3]: 81 Subsequent days saw large demonstrations; on 21 February a pro-government Gathering of National Unity drew tens of thousands,^{[3]: 86 [6]} whilst on 22 February the number of protestors at the Pearl Roundabout peeked at over 150,000 after more than 100,000 protesters marched there.^[3]: 88 On 14 March, Saudi-led GCC forces were requested by the government and entered the country,^[3]: 132 which the opposition called an "occupation".^[7]

King Hamad bin Isa Al Khalifa declared a three-month state of emergency on 15 March and asked the military to reassert its control as clashes spread across the country.^{[8][3]: 139} On 16 March, armed soldiers and riot police cleared the protesters' camp in the Pearl Roundabout, in which 3 policemen and 3 protesters were reportedly killed.^{[3]: 133–4 [9]} Later, on 18 March, the government tore down Pearl Roundabout monument.^{[10][3]: 150} After the lifting of emergency law on 1 June,^[11] several large rallies were staged by the opposition parties.^[12] Smaller-scale protests and clashes outside of the capital have continued to occur almost daily.^[13][14] On 9 March 2012 over 100,000 protested in what the opposition called "the biggest march in our history".^[15][16]

The police response has been described as a "brutal" crackdown on peaceful and unarmed protestors, including doctors and bloggers.^[17][18][19] The police carried out midnight house raids in Shia neighbourhoods, beatings at checkpoints, and denial of medical care in a "campaign of intimidation".^{[20][21][22][23]} More than 2,929 people have been arrested,^[24][25] and at least five people died due to torture while in police custody.^{[3]: 287,288} On 23 November 2011 the Bahrain Independent Commission of Inquiry released its report on its investigation of the events, finding that the government had systematically tortured prisoners and committed other human rights violations.^{[3]: 415–422} It also rejected the government's claims that the protests were instigated by Iran.^[26] Although the report found that systematic torture had stopped,^[3]: 417 the Bahraini government has refused entry to several international human rights groups and news organizations, and delayed a visit by a UN inspector.^[27][28] Mohamed CJ ^(talk) 09:35, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Sorry I've been so long; been busy and my connection is playing up. The main problem I have is that I spent a good while editing that first draft (the one I reverted to) as a neutral summary article. The article there before I played with it was clearly not neutral and, I'd suggest, the edits you originally made to mine were likewise not neutral. With respect, even the above version looks like it's been prepared by someone on the side of the protesters, which of course is the case. This is not to say that your position is wrong, just that it is not neutral. Detail needs to be included on the detail page, where it's possible to address both the government's actions (beatings etc.) and the protesters' actions (molotovs etc.). It (and not here) is also the right place to included opposition estimates of protesters, as that's where you can go into detail about the reliability of opposition (and government) figures.

I'll try to devote some more time to the line-by-line below, but you have to bear in mind that I'm not immersed in the situation. So when you question the integrity of the BICI report and cite news articles, I have to evaluate them and search for articles from solid news sources (i.e. Reuters etc. not Fox etc.) to make a determination of what's likely to be right.

I agree that your version above addresses the brevity concerns I had, although I think there's still a tendency to overlink. I'll put a copy of what I see as a neutral version below, in case you want to pull a 3rd party in to get a quicker resolution. No problem if you do. Bromley86 (talk) 23:42, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

The protests in Bahrain started on 14 February, and were initially aimed at achieving greater political freedom and respect for human rights; they were not intended to directly threaten the monarchy.^{[2][3]: 162–3} Lingering frustration among the Shiite majority with being ruled by the Sunni government was a major root cause, but the protests in Tunisia and Egypt are cited as the inspiration for the demonstrations.^[2][3]: 65 The protests were largely peaceful until a pre-dawn raid by police on 17 February to clear protestors from Pearl Roundabout in Manama, in which police killed four protesters.^{[3]: 73–4} Following the raid, some protesters began to expand their aims to a call for the end of the monarchy.^[4] On 18 February the army opened fire on protesters when they tried to reenter the roundabout, fatally wounding one.^{[3]: 77–8} The following day protesters reoccupied Pearl Roundabout after the government ordered troops and police to withdraw.^[5][3]: 81 Subsequent days saw large demonstrations; on 21 February a pro-government Gathering of National Unity drew tens of thousands,^{[29][3]: 86} whilst on 22 February the number of protestors at the Pearl Roundabout peeked at over 150,000 after more than 100,000 protesters marched there.^[3]: 88 On 14 March, in response to the general breakdown in security and law and order, GCC forces were requested by the government and entered the country.^[3]: 132 The opposition called this an "occupation".^[7]

King Hamad bin Isa Al Khalifa declared a three-month state of emergency on 15 March and asked the military to reassert its control as clashes spread across the country.^{[8][3]: 139} On 16 March, the protesters' camp in the Pearl Roundabout was again cleared^{[3]: 133–4} and later, on 18 March, the Pearl Roundabout monument was torn down.^{[10][3]: 150} After the lifting of emergency law on 1 June,^[11] several large rallies were staged by the opposition parties.^[12] Smaller-scale protests and clashes outside of the capital have continued to occur almost daily.^[14] On 9 March 2012 around 100,000 protested in what the opposition called "the biggest march in our history".^[15][16]

On 23 November 2011 the Bahrain Independent Commission of Inquiry released its report on its investigation of the events of February and March 2011, finding that the government had systematically tortured prisoners and committed other human rights violations.^{[3]: 415–422} Although the report found that systematic torture had stopped,^[3]: 417 the Bahraini government has refused entry to several international human rights groups and delayed a visit by a UN inspector.^[28] Bromley86 (talk) 23:42, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Alright, let's get a third opinion. P.S. I've made a small change in the paragraph. Mohamed CJ ^(talk) 10:22, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Really sorry that I've dropped off the radar. ISP problems meant I had really bad upload speeds, which strangely seemed to make even opening WP pages a nightmare (let alone editing, which as often as not timed out). Seems to be sorted now, so I'll try to find some time.Bromley86 (talk) 17:47, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Welcome back. It would be good if you comment on the points below as soon as you can. Mohamed CJ (talk) 08:24, 19 April 2012 (UTC)