Talk:Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in Pennsylvania/Archive 4

Omitted Context: The article does not mention recent calls for civil war from right-wing sources or their trending on social media, which is a significant aspect of the current political climate. ^[1][2]Ms.britt (talk) 00:27, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

It would be helpful if you could show some reliable sources reporting on this, so we can evaluate if it is DUE for the article. Thanks. Isaidnoway (talk) 00:34, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Sounds like totally WP:FRINGE 2603:6080:21F0:6000:6DF4:BA83:E068:136C (talk) 00:37, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Citations: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/07/14/trump-shooting-conspiracy-theories/ https://www.wired.com/story/trump-shooting-far-right-calling-for-violence-war/

sign your posts with four tildas! and, because they reported it does not change that they were reporting possible WP:FRINGE

The right call for civil war after almost anything happening they do not like, this is now new. Slatersteven (talk) 13:35, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I'm aware that it is in multiple sources, but they all appear to be repeating misinformation from each other.

The Act Blue donation: address is different from the voter registration address: . Titanium Dragon (talk) 10:16, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Either that or he moved. I suspect that we will know a lot more about it and be able to know for sure what the deal is a day from now. Until then, who knows. You might be right: it may be worth just taking out the bleeding-edge conjecture about political affiliation stuff entirely and revisiting it in a few hours. jp×g🗯️ 10:24, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

The ActBlue donation has been shown to be another Thomas Crooks, aged 69. Same name, different birth years, different address. Ms.britt (talk) 00:11, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Shown by whom? Is that what reliable sources are saying? Otherwise, this seems like original research. JMM12345 (talk) 00:58, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

If you look up the address listed under the FEC filing, it's listed as associated with people listed as his parents here. Possible they moved. VintageVernacular (talk) 10:30, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

The FEC filing only provides a large zip code... in which another Thomas Crooks who is a YMCA volunteer lives. 2603:6011:A600:84B1:B196:E0F:2E48:A108 (talk) 14:10, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

No, the full address is listed here: https://docquery.fec.gov/pdf/728/202102049425215728/202102049425215728_189746.pdf

Ownership records of the address match his parents names. 24.159.244.249 (talk) 00:59, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

WP:VNT, WP:V. When WP:RS update their reporting so will we. Digging through FEC filings is WP:OR. Remote the "disputed" tag immediately. Thanks. --24.125.98.89 (talk) 09:03, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

I agree with this IP and JMM12345 above – there appears to be a lot of amateur detective work going on here. We say what the sources say; we don't engage in WP:OR. — Czello ^(music) 09:08, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

$15? Who cares? Why the reach to associate to any group for such a paltry sum? Matzoballer (talk) 11:49, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Ultimately it's being widely reported by reliable sources – it's not us saying that it's notable, it's them. — Czello ^(music) 14:20, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

This edit request to Attempted assassination of Donald Trump has been answered. Set the |answered= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Admins can we get the "disputed" tag removed from the $15 dono to Act Blue per the above the dispute is driven by WP:OR and is inconsistent with the diverse WP:RS covering this item. Thanks. 24.125.98.89 (talk) 12:05, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

 Done In this revision – macaddct1984 ^{(talk | contribs)} 14:00, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Currently the Vucci photo of Trump is under discussion regarding its inclusion and deletion, in the meantime, it would be great if we could get some kind of image to go in the infobox, like what we've got for the Attempted assassination of Ronald Reagan page. How would editors feel about including a low-res crop of one of the many news-feeds that captured the event? It wouldn't have the same commercial overlap concerns as the Vucci photo. Thoughts? Suggestions? Joe (talk) 21:45, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

The only way I see around the commercial issue is either extremely obscure but still quality photos or photos without Trump in them e.g. photos from after Trump left the rally or, better yet, potentially photos in which Trump is so obscured by the Secret Service whether head-on or side view that their is almost zero concern of any possible commercial use.

A few examples:

https://e3.365dm.com/24/07/768x432/skynews-donald-trump-shooting_6625848.jpg

https://cloudfront-us-east-2.images.arcpublishing.com/reuters/Y2YPBQBWGJIIFKO7GL4JSFMCKY.jpg

https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_fit-560w,f_avif,q_auto:eco,dpr_2/rockcms/2024-07/240714-donald-trump-shooting-butler-mn-1125-da1f30.jpg Firestorm0718 (talk) 22:10, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

doesn't have the fist pump but is still useful and recognizable. Cremastra (talk) 22:13, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Any of these would be superior to the current nothing we've got in the infobox. Joe (talk) 22:16, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

That's not how the usage of non-free content works. If you sub in another image with the same status as the other one, we're just in the same boat. Zaathras (talk) 22:21, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

We use copyrighted images (albums, novel covers, video game promotional material, etc.) under fair use, because they represent the thing and don't impinge on the commercial viability of the work. There's a debate as to whether our use of the Vucci photo may impinge on its commercial success, because it's becoming iconic, but that isn't true of every frame of every shot taken that day. We're dearly wanting for something to visually represent the event in the infobox. Joe (talk) 22:37, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Barring a fair-use picture of the event itself, our best options are a) a bird-eye svg diagram or b) a photograph of the premises. Bremps... 01:09, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

We have a Commons aerial photo of the event itself, in the article, that should probably be moved to the infobox. Kingsif (talk) 01:19, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

@Kingsif: you're probably referring to that image here:

It's already being changed in for the info-box image just a few minutes ago. PEPSI697 (talk) 01:33, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Yep, now asking @WoodElf: why they removed it (a free image) in favour of a non-free image at deletion discussion? Kingsif (talk) 01:40, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Since you asked: the "raised fist" image is a better illustration of the article. As and when the image discussion is concluded, we may change to a different image - let's avoid the back and forth we have already seen. User:WoodElf 01:48, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

I mean, I disagree with that assessment, but even if I agreed, that's a matter of personal preference i.e. not an objective article improvement, and is apparently getting pushback, viz BRD. In such cases, it is better to start a discussion over which image is more representative of the entire event. I have a feeling many would agree with you, but recommend discussing if there is the back and forth you said. Kingsif (talk) 01:53, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

The article is about an attempted assassination. The "raised fist" image shows the immediate aftermath of said attempt. Therefore it is objectively a better illustration than the proposed alternative. Of course, the fair use of the image is currently under discussion, and if it is eventually removed, or it's use is restricted to the article about the photo itself, then the venue photo can be use as the alternative illustration lacking anything better (but suggest not before then). User:WoodElf 02:12, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

This has been discussed elsewhere on the talkpage with a consensus not to use the image in the infobox, so I've removed it again. As and when the NFCC rational is altered to allow it to be used where the image isn't under discussion, I'm happy for it to go back into the lede. Mdann52 (talk) 15:42, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

There were thousands of people present, many of them with their phones taking pictures. Search the social media sites. It shouldn't be too hard to find someone willing to freely license their image. Having your image be the Wikipedia illustration is a big bragging point. Rmhermen (talk) 01:27, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

If anyone can get us some kind of fair or free use alternative, just in case the Vucci photo gets deleted, it would be great to have that as a backup. Who knows, we might end up using it elsewhere in the article, or instead of the Vucci photo, if users preferred it to the Vucci photo for some reason. Joe (talk) 02:23, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

A previous version of this page mentioned the attempted assassination of President Ronald Wilson Reagan (I don’t know if this is still on the page). In my opinion, a closer historical parallel whose inclusion would make more sense than Reagan’s is the attempted assassination of Theodore Roosevelt, as this event is more similar to that one than it is to the incident with Reagan. Both the Trump and Roosevelt assassination attempts targeted a former president who was shot during an event for their reelection campaign after about three-and-a-half years out of office. Primal Groudon (talk) 14:47, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

I think the historical parallels are fine , but including all of them to this page would be undue. I could name one more, the Attempted assassination of Leonid Brezhnev, but one would need a secondary source that directly makes such comparison to avoid WP:OR. My very best wishes (talk) 15:55, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm creating this section in response to the repeated changing of the location of this incident. The shooting happened at the Butler Farm Show fairground which is located in Butler County outside of Butler. However, the state of Pennsylvania, as pointed out to me earlier by @Dough4872 and @JWilz12345, is divided into townships. This fairground is located in Connoquenessing Township, Butler County just west of Meridian.

Therefore it seems inappropriate to refer to this as happening within the city of Butler, despite many sources saying it happened in Butler, which is simply because the fairground is located within the Butler metro. So, should we refer to it as have happened west of Meridian, in Connoquenessing Township, or perhaps even just in Butler County? I prefer something along the lines of "Connoquenessing Township west of Meridian" personally although that is a mouthful. Raskuly (talk) 05:03, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Nothing should be mentioned but Butler because the media almost entirely only mentions Butler. I made it say "near Butler" in the opening sentence for clarity but that is the most that should be done because otherwise it is OR. Bill Williams 05:18, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

A local newspaper stated the specific township, so hopefully this should satisfy any concerns with sourcing. (I used a website to get past the paywall) WhisperToMe (talk) 05:27, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

It was pointed out to me that the exact location on the fairground is actually within Meridian. My apologies for the mistake. Raskuly (talk) 05:30, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

It seems the fairground straddles the township line. The issue though is which part would it be in? Unless there's something solid, it may be best to defer to what the local newspapers say WhisperToMe (talk) 05:34, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

@Trorov: Hi! I notice your edit summaries mention a map. Which maps are they? WhisperToMe (talk) 05:27, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Both the perpetrator as well as Trump were in Meridian when this took place. Calle Widmann (talk) 07:51, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

The correct location is "near Butler". Townships in Pennsylvania are mainly for administrative purposes and unless you're conducting a census or working for the post office, no one cares that much about them. Nosferattus (talk) 18:37, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Seriously? A township (Pennsylvania) is used for administrative purposes, to be sure, but it's far more significant than merely that. Your township determines your school district (districts being based on municipal borders; see map), your fire department, your roads, your local elected officials, and so much more. Pretty much all adults will know in which municipality they live; townships are vastly different from, say, counties in New England or magisterial districts in Virginia. Unless we can get a precise location, best to go with "near Butler", since we know it's not in the city, and the border makes it awkward. (Also, it's irrelevant for the post office. My relatives in Lawrence County have New Castle addresses, despite living multiple townships away from the city.) Plus, while Meridian has specific Census boundaries, it's not a municipality, so the Census boundaries don't always match popular perceptions of what is or isn't Meridian, and some people may disagree with "west of Meridian". I've been there — I took the image that illustrates the Meridian article. Nyttend (talk) 19:14, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Also, I found a secondary source states specifically about the venue: Grubbs, Paula (July 13, 2024). "Meridian neighborhood awaits impact of Trump rally". Butler Eagle. Archived from the original on July 14, 2024. Retrieved July 14, 2024. [...] as most of the Farm Show Grounds is in Connoquenessing Township, which is covered by state police. WhisperToMe (talk) 16:57, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Also: Tomasic, Megan; Cheuk, Kinnia; Anderson, Jordan (2024-07-14). "'Why Butler?': Community grapples with the aftermath of the Trump rally shooting". Pittsburgh Post-Gazette. The rally was held just outside the city limits,[...] , from a local source. WhisperToMe (talk) 17:14, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

The Effects on Trump's public image section is entirely about one photo and is UNDUE and COATRACK. The article is about the assassination attempt, not people's opinions of the photo. If the photo gets sustained attention, then it might warrant inclusion. EvergreenFir (talk) 06:44, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

I have a more nuanced view. We are using a non free image and the relevant policy language about "Images with iconic status or historical importance" says Iconic or historical images that are themselves the subject of sourced commentary in the article are generally appropriate. Iconic and historical images which are not subject of commentary themselves but significantly aid in illustrating historical events may be used if they meet all aspects of the non-free content criteria, particularly no free alternatives, respect for commercial opportunity, and contextual significance. However, if the image is from a press or photo agency (e.g., AP or Getty Images) and is not itself the subject of critical commentary, it is assumed automatically to fail the "respect for commercial opportunity" test. In this case, the image is from the Associated Press, and if we are going to use this image, the article needs to include sourced commentary from reliable sources making the case that it is iconic or historical. I believe that it is both. The passage of time will show that more clearly, but it is hard for me to visualize some future analysis by historians that concludes, "No, that is neither an iconic nor a historical photo of Trump". Cullen328 (talk) 07:21, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Too soon at a minimum Elinruby (talk) 08:04, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

It is kind of a chicken-and-egg problem; some people were saying the photo had to come out because there wasn't enough sourcing about that photo specifically to meet WP:NFCC, then somebody found a bunch of sources talking about the photo, then someone else was like "Why is there so much crap in the article about this one photo, this is WP:UNDUE" and removed them all. It has been oscillating between these two fairly regularly; I think both ends of the pendulum produce a noticeably worse article, so hopefully it will end up in some stable arrangement between them. jp×g🗯️ 09:04, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Someone elsewhere on this talk page had the brilliant idea of putting the damn image somewhere else, further down the article, and by this part which is about it, which seems like a stupendous idea. jp×g🗯️ 10:28, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

@Cullen328 and @JPxG, the problem to me is that this photo isn't even being used by many media sources. In the articles I read, I've seen a number of other images instead. Why don't we have details on the photos from Rebecca Droke, Anne Moneymaker, or Brendan McDermid? EvergreenFir (talk) 16:08, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

95% of the section is regarding the Nucci photograph. Propose to rename to "Nucci photograph of injured Trump" or something similar and move to separate new section below everything else. User:WoodElf 16:30, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Alt suggestion: a new section called "In visual media" which discusses Evan Vucci's widely circulated photograph(s) and any other notable photo/video from the incident. User:WoodElf 21:42, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

No, it’s not just about the photo; some people view Trump as a martyr because of the attempt, not because of the photo of the attempt. LordOfWalruses (talk) 19:03, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

File:Shooting of Donald Trump.webp is already being cited in the context of political grandstanding.

• Photo of bloodied Trump fist pumping immediately spotlighted by his allies
• Trump Pumps Fist, Secret Service Says He Is Safe

I have doubts that it even passes WP:NFCC. Can we locate something better? Zaathras (talk) 00:31, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

It likely does not pass it. Removing for now. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 00:32, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Given how recent it is, no way it passes NFCC right now. Speedy tag it for basically any of the criteria. Kingsif (talk) 00:34, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

I think it is fine, see Battle of Iwo Jima or September 11 attacks (A firefighter requests assistance at World Trade Center site) both are common pcitures for propoganda. LuxembourgLover (talk) 00:34, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Not the issue, primary issue is we don't have the rights to the image and it is possible someone at the event might release a similar image to the commons. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 00:35, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Oh, I see. I still think its a good picture if we can find a free verson. LuxembourgLover (talk) 01:03, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Difference is those images have historical significance, which, yeah, something that just happened really doesn't. Kingsif (talk) 00:36, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

The shooting of a former president and nominee for a second term to that office is not notable? NorthropChicken (talk) 00:51, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

That is a completely - completely - different question to whether a photo is itself inherently so historically important to make it fair use. Kingsif (talk) 00:55, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Just because an image of a victim of a shooting is being used by the supporters of that victim doesn't mean the image itself is "inappropriate" for a situation like this NorthropChicken (talk) 00:37, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Definitely doesn't pass NFCC, I've opened a discussion for the file on WP:FFD. Di (they-them) (talk) 00:37, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Quite the opposite, this is the image the media is using the most (all show different variations of him raising his fist) and therefore it is most informative to readers and most identifiable if this image is used. This image should displayed in the infobox. Bill Williams 00:42, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

We should not be using what is now a campaign photo in a Wikipedia infobox. That would be as daft as adorning every Barack Obama campaign page we have with the Barack Obama "Hope" poster. Zaathras (talk) 00:53, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't think we have a choice. And you're absolutely right, this image is now the equivalent of the "Hope" poster. I don't think there's anything we can do. Viriditas (talk) 01:13, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

There are bound to be other images from the event that aren't copyrighted, so yes there is a choice here. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 01:19, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

I figured the ambiguity of my comment would confuse people. This photo is now iconic. It will be constantly added back. Go look at it on the main page. It's not going away. Viriditas (talk) 01:23, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

It is not on the main page? LegalSmeagolian (talk) 01:45, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Sorry again for the ambiguity. The main article. However, it is on the main page of every newspaper at this moment. I don't think it is going to go away. Viriditas (talk) 01:57, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

PSA, the discussion is here. Bremps... 04:02, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

If NFCC can be satisfied then of course it should be used, as it's the photo the world's entire media is using. Saying it shouldn't be used just because the GOP likes it, is absurd and partisan in itself. Fig (talk) 18:17, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

This image is being used all over the press reporting and is becoming the marquee image of the event. Many believe it is biased but it is becoming the representative image. The MSM has decided this. Helpingtoclarify (talk) 19:41, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Actually I am seeing a lot of MSM have stopped using this as their lead photo (you can still find that photo inside the article). It would be good to change it once there are more neutral photos available that pass NFCC. Frankserafini87 (talk) 23:31, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

It is not biased or inappropriate.* The image is of high concern in the media regarding the event.

I also think it's a cool photo. (Not a Trump supporter or anything, it's just kinda sick.)

It's the most American photo I've ever seen. The only thing missing is a bald eagle. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2403:5816:A833:1:DD88:8B9B:21FD:110E (talk) 06:06, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

*However, it doesn't seem to abide by Wikipedia's policies.

I insist that it remains off the page until its associated discussion is closed and an action is taken...
— Urro^{[talk][edits]} ⋮ 23:40, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

NFCC is a completely different subject from OP's topic and they don't intersect. This makes this entire talk section confusing. Californianin (talk) 04:05, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

How is it biased just because it’s being widely used to represent the event? That’s like saying that including the “Liberty Leading the People” painting in a French Revolution article is biased. LordOfWalruses (talk) 18:48, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

I mean Liberty Leading the People is an allegorical depiction of the July Revolution of 1830, not the French Revolution. So it would be incorrect to use that image for that article. I think the photo is fine in the "aftermath" section but as there are other photos/images that depict the attempt actually occurring those would be more representative of the event itself, rather than the minutes following the event. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 19:57, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

@Mikeblas: removed the map in this diff, and I agree - how is the map not original research? Daniel (talk) 03:01, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Two locations in the map are backed up by this source; I don't know where the Secret Service locations are from. Staraction (talk | contribs) 03:05, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

There seems to be a reference about a Secret Service sniper neutralizing the alleged attacker, but no location or position information is included in that material. -- Mikeblas (talk) 03:05, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Agree. This is synthesis and hence I believe it is original research and should remain out of the article at this time. Daniel (talk) 03:06, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

New Updated Map!! - https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:2024_Trump_Assassination_Attempt_Map.jpg MediaGuy768 (talk) 12:14, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

The licensing that image was released under BY-NC-ND, which it not compatible with the Wikipedia as it is too restrictive. That will be deleted shortly. Zaathras (talk) 12:25, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

I am learning that the author made an error with that. an updated version will be submitted shortly! MediaGuy768 (talk) 12:35, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

I was able to upload a new map that I created and has no copyright/licensing issues.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:3D_Trump_Rally_Map.jpg MediaGuy768 (talk) 20:49, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

This edit request to Attempted assassination of Donald Trump has been answered. Set the |answered= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Just wanted to add a source to the Mark Violets affair: the exclusive interview released by the guy that set up the fake news about the alleged terrorist (moussolinho) to an Italian monthly newspaper: https://rifrazioneprismag.substack.com/p/violigate-parla-moussolinho-la-cosa Loziocold (talk) 15:34, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Substack is user-generated content and is not considered reliable. C F A 💬 16:58, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

This edit request to Attempted assassination of Donald Trump has been answered. Set the |answered= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Please remove the names of the surviving injured victims per WP:BLPNAME. Inclusion of their full names isn't necessary. Estreyeria (talk) 19:18, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

 Done EvergreenFir (talk) 19:25, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

This edit request to Attempted assassination of Donald Trump has been answered. Set the |answered= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Please change this sentence:

Crooks made a donation of $15 to the Progressive Turnout Project (a voter turnout group) through ActBlue (a donation platform for Democrats and progressive organizations).

to:

Crooks gave $15 to a voter turnout group, the Progressive Turnout Project, through a donation platform known as ActBlue, which is used by Democrats and progressive organizations.

Half the sentence is parenthetical phrases; that just seems too much. Also, "made a donation of" is much wordier than "gave". 123.51.107.94 (talk) 04:36, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

 Done though I've tweaked "gave" to "donated" (removing the therefore redundant "donation" later in the sentence) and replaced "known as" with "called". Tollens (talk) 05:40, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

In the paragraph that starts with "Public figures from the Democratic and Republican parties have called for an increase in security for the major candidates in the election. There are no known posts on social media websites or writings indicating his ideology,"

use of "his" is somewhat unclear. I'd recommend changing that pronoun to "the shooter's." Snideology (talk) 02:26, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Already done. You can use this template in the future to request edits. TheWikiToby (talk) 02:37, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

It seems like they keep changing the image back to Vucci's image of Trump. I know it's because of copyright issues. However, I recommend that we soon agree on an image for the info-box we all agree on and like and keep. I'd recommend uploading some images to Wikimedia Commons if possible. But unfortunately, most images of this incident are subjected to copyright. PEPSI697 (talk) 03:49, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

See #Repeated unexplained removal of the photo. this has been discussed with a consensus not to include the non-free image in the infobox. I agree there may still be free images that can be used there instead. Mdann52 (talk) 08:44, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Yep, I see those consequences there as well at that discussion. Hopefully we can find a free image to use here and upload it to Wikimedia Commons sometime soon if it could be found. PEPSI697 (talk) 09:21, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Someone could reach out to the photographer and ask if he's willing to put a low-res version under a free license. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:04, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

That could be one option, for someone to reach out to the photographer. Good idea. PEPSI697 (talk) 23:47, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Recently, an edit was made that added list-defined references, which broke much of the referencing on the page. I oppose converting this to LDR for this reason and, per MOS:CITEVAR, we should continue using the inline template references. I will work to try to restore the content added between the LDR-inserting edit and the reverting edit. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 03:13, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

I've gotten more edit conflicts in the last two hours than in the last two months and I'm not even trying to do any politics stuff I'm just fixing the formatting

‹ The template below (Emojus) is being considered for deletion. See templates for discussion to help reach a consensus. ›

😔

@Red-tailed hawk: The reference formatting script has an option to remove LDR, if it is that big of a deal as to warrant a gigantic revert, but I don't know why it would be helpful to put them all inline -- the source code for this page with all the refs inlined was completely unreadable. jp×g🗯️ 03:14, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

When people use the visual editor, as most editors do, list defined references are utterly broken. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 03:15, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

If it were all bare URLs or light citation templates it'd be one thing, but with the archive URLs (which is the only way for people to verify the (subscription required)s) it's a total disaster. Like, this is the source for a three-sentence passage:

According to Butler County district attorney Richard Goldinger, an alleged perpetrator and an audience member were killed.<ref>{{Cite news |title=Butler County District Attorney Richard Goldinger said two people are dead, including an apparent shooter. |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/07/13/2024-election-campaign-updates-biden-trump-rally/ |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20240713232323/https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/07/13/2024-election-campaign-updates-biden-trump-rally/ |archive-date=July 13, 2024 |access-date=July 13, 2024 |newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]}}</ref> At least one other person is in critical condition.<ref name="casualties">{{Cite news |last1=Stein |first1=Chris |last2=Lawther |first2=Fran |date=July 13, 2024 |title=Donald Trump is 'fine' after being rushed off stage at rally amid possible gunshots – latest updates |url=https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2024/jul/13/trump-rally-gun-shots-pennsylvania-latest-updates |access-date=July 13, 2024 |work=the Guardian |language=en-GB |issn=0261-3077 |archive-date=July 14, 2024 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20240714015033/https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2024/jul/13/trump-rally-gun-shots-pennsylvania-latest-updates |url-status=live }}</ref><ref name=PowellShelton>{{Cite web|last1=Powell|first1=Tori B.|last2=Shelton|first2=Shania|last3=Meyer|first3=Matt|last4=D'Antonio|first4=Isabelle|last5=Tucker|first5=Emma|last6=Yeung|first6=Jessie|date=July 13, 2024|title=Live updates: Trump injured in shooting at Pennsylvania rally that left at least 1 dead {{!}} CNN Politics|url=https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/election-biden-trump-07-13-24/index.html|access-date=July 13, 2024|website=CNN|language=en|archive-date=July 13, 2024|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20240713222828/https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/election-biden-trump-07-13-24/index.html|url-status=live}}</ref> Rep. [[Ronny Jackson]] (R-Texas) told Fox News that his nephew was shot in the neck.<ref>{{Cite web |last=McGraw |first=Meridith |last2=Allison |first2=Natalie |date=July 13, 2024 |title=Trump ‘felt the bullet ripping through the skin’ during campaign rally shooting |url=https://www.politico.com/news/2024/07/13/trump-rushed-off-stage-at-pennsylvania-rally-after-possible-gunfire-00167977 |url-status=live |access-date=July 13, 2024 |website=Politico |archive-date=July 13, 2024 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20240713235642/https://www.politico.com/news/2024/07/13/trump-rushed-off-stage-at-pennsylvania-rally-after-possible-gunfire-00167977 }}</ref>

I mean, there's probably a solid month of edit wars already booked for this article, so I don't know if there is space here for a reference format argument. I guess my screed here is that it's extremely stupid that we have to deal with unreadable shit like this when there's a perfectly-functional alternative because nobody can be arsed to fix basic functionality in VE. It's especially dumb because it's not like LDR is some newfangled thing -- it was already four years old when VisualEditor was introduced, and VisualEditor itself is now eleven years old. jp×g🗯️ 03:26, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Apologies about my edit reverting to the broken version - I got caught in an edit conflict. Staraction (talk | contribs) 03:15, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Off-topic question, but is this why the reference section was like 40k bytes 10 minutes ago? Ornov Ganguly (talk) 03:18, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

That is why, yes. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 03:21, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

No -- it had nothing to do with that. The byte difference was because the templates were vertically spaced, e.g. instead of

<ref>{{Cite web |last=McGraw |first=Meridith |last2=Allison |first2=Natalie |date=July 13, 2024 |title=Trump ‘felt the bullet ripping through the skin’ during campaign rally shooting |url=https://www.politico.com/news/2024/07/13/trump-rushed-off-stage-at-pennsylvania-rally-after-possible-gunfire-00167977 |url-status=live |access-date=July 13, 2024 |website=Politico |archive-date=July 13, 2024 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20240713235642/https://www.politico.com/news/2024/07/13/trump-rushed-off-stage-at-pennsylvania-rally-after-possible-gunfire-00167977 }}</ref>

they were formatted like

<ref>{{Cite web
 |last         = McGraw
 |first        = Meridith
 |last2        = Allison
 |first2       = Natalie
 |date         = July 13, 2024
 |title        = Trump ‘felt the bullet ripping through the skin’ during campaign rally shooting
 |url          = https://www.politico.com/news/2024/07/13/trump-rushed-off-stage-at-pennsylvania-rally-after-possible-gunfire-00167977
 |url-status   = live
 |access-date  = July 13, 2024
 |website      = Politico
 |archive-date = July 13, 2024
 |archive-url  = https://web.archive.org/web/20240713235642/https://www.politico.com/news/2024/07/13/trump-rushed-off-stage-at-pennsylvania-rally-after-possible-gunfire-00167977
 }}</ref>

. So that the vertical space increase didn't make the source code even more impossible to read or modify, I reformatted it to use WP:LDR, so that all the references would be moved to the bottom of the article instead of being plopped directly between the sentences of prose text. The reason this doesn't work in Visual Editor is because the Wikimedia Foundation has decided it doesn't matter if the default editor on Wikipedia can work without breaking when used to edit Wikipedia articles. jp×g🗯️ 03:29, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

I just switched only one section to list-defined (international reactions), which section was literally impossible to edit and the highlighter was broken. @Red-tailed hawk WP:CITEVAR does not apply to selectively switching some of the references to list-defined. CITEVAR is about what is rendered, not about how the markup is factored. List-defined is commonly done for tables, infoboxes etc. —Alalch E. 14:02, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

WP:CITEVAR, under the "To be avoided" subheader, does include changing where the references are defined, e.g., moving reference definitions in the reflist to the prose, or moving reference definitions from the prose into the reflist. As such, I don't think that CITEVAR is about what is rendered, not about how the markup is factored holds here. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 14:50, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Huh. Yeah, alright. I will move them back, which should be fine now because of the particular cosmetic formatting I've added to that section in the meantime making it easier to see what's going on. —Alalch E. 14:53, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

But I have to note here that that part of CITEVAR is not good. It indirectly means that list-defined references should never be used, because articles are basically always created not using them, and suggests completely unnecessary uniformity (either all are defined in the body or in the reflist -- bit of a dichotomous thinking moment). It is not consistent with how, sometimes, very justifiably, ibx, table and list cites are list-defined to make the content more humanly editable (while the prose cites are left alone). The result for the reader is the same, so this is just about making our lives easier. —Alalch E. 15:17, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Forsooth! jp×g🗯️ 09:00, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

All that part of CITEVAR does is ask people to go to the talk page and get consensus to change the citation style. Per the guidance, if you think that a particular citation style is inappropriate for the needs of the article, seek consensus for a change on the talk page. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 01:10, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

The Secret Service is investigating how a man who shot and injured Trump was able to get so close

https://apnews.com/article/secret-service-trump-rally-4e3415b1461f5acefbc8e1fadad0375b

'A fundamental security failure': How did a gunman open fire on a Trump rally?

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/gunman-open-fire-trump-rally-rcna161746

New videos, witness accounts of Trump assassination attempt raise questions about security

https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2024-07-13/shooting-at-trump-rally-raised-red-flags-for-secret-service-over-security

Trump security was warned about gunman four minutes before shooting, witness claims

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/us/news/2024/07/14/donald-trump-witness-warned-security-police-gunman-roof/

What went wrong? How did Secret Service allow shooter to get so close to Trump?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2024/07/14/was-trump-shooting-secret-service-fail/74400138007/

Rooftop where gunman shot at Trump was identified as a security vulnerability before rally: sources

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-rally-shooting-secret-service-identified-rooftop-security-flaw-rcna161783

Secret Service faces serious questions about security footprint and rooftop access at Trump event

https://www.cnn.com/2024/07/14/politics/secret-service-faces-serious-questions-about-security-footprint-and-rooftop-access-at-trump-event/index.html

Witness says he saw gunman on roof near Trump rally

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cn4v7v2g5l1o

Secret Service under pressure for shooter who got clear shot at Trump

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2024/07/14/secret-service-trump-rally-shooting/

‘Massive security breach’: Secret Service under fire after gunman got clear shot at Trump

https://www.politico.com/news/2024/07/14/secret-service-trump-shooting-rally-00168158

Step aside, Butch (talk) 14:10, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

A section about the opinions on failures of the Secret Service should be added. Ca ^{talk to me!} 16:12, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Now let's see if Trump will "walk the Earth" like Caine in Kung Fu. Bremps... 01:14, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

I saw the end of the article:

Georgian Prime Minister Irakli Kobakhidze and other Georgian government officials blamed the attack on the "Global War Party", a recurring conspiracy theory of the Georgian Dream party alleging a mysterious international organization that exerts influence on the Western world from the shadows.

Is this relevant to the article? Or just some kind mixing fact with fantastic conspiracy thingy? Mmnashrullah (talk) 07:49, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

I think it is just some sort of delusion specific to that guy and his political party. I don't see this text in the article currently, meaning someone probably saw it had nothing to do with anything and took it out already. jp×g🗯️ 10:37, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't get how you are dismissing the position of the government of a close US ally as just being "delusion specific to that guy (Kobakhidze)". It's the position of the entire government and the country's de-facto leader - oligarch Bidzina Ivanishvili. The way it connects to Trump and why it is even being mentioned is that Georgian government since 2022 has claimed that the world is under the influence of GWP and is pushing countries into war, attempting to overthrow governments / assassinate leaders which are not "pro-war" (aka pro-helping Ukraine). The party officials have claimed this and attempted assassination of Robert Fico as prime examples GWP being real and of its violent actions. Kobakhidze, after Fico's shooting, even claimed that they were gonna go after him next. The party is basically claiming that Trump was punished because of his anti-war stance.

Yes its a silly conspiracy, but it's an actual response by a government of a country whose closest ally is possibly US. I don't get what "mixing fact with fantastic conspiracy thingy" means. If a government of a country claims that this assassination is a part of a big plot to prolong Ukraine war, I don't see why it should be left out. Zlad! (talk) 22:15, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

You quoted the phrase "that guy and his political party", removed the words "and his political party", and then complained that I didn't mention his political party? jp×g🗯️ 00:41, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

I see... So, it's somewhat related. Well, that part may remain in the article. Mmnashrullah (talk) 01:40, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Should the article say if Trump was turning his head (and/or body) clockwise (or counterclockwise, whatever the case), toward a chart that Trump was pointing at.--Another thing: the article should maybe (also?) say if Trump was "twisting"/turning his head, away from the direction of the shooter.--Please imagine that many of the readers of the wiki-article, (largely) only have access to stills (photographs), but not relevant video clips. Some readers depend on wiki-articles for details! Thanks, 2001:2020:355:9EBD:A520:1AE7:A49C:5216 (talk) 19:14, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Which reliable sources are we to base this on? Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 19:30, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

We don't really have the need for sources in this scenario, because the people that are able to watch the video can see how Donald Trump moves with his head, so that he does not gets hit. Gilliebillie🤡 (talk) 19:55, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Consider WP:OR and WP:RELY.
— Urro^{[talk][edits]} ⋮ 20:25, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

I imagine the video would be a pretty darn reliable source on which direction he turns his head in during the video. jp×g🗯️ 02:44, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Trump turned his head towards the shooter, towards his right, which narrowed his head profile from a wider side profile to a narrower front-facing profile. Details all in Telegraph article. Added in the article. KiharaNoukan (talk) 04:53, 16 July 2024 (UTC)