Talk:BP/RfCs

References for paragraph

Coretheapple (talk) 17:52, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

The issue was discussed previously in Talk:BP#Oil_spill_trial.

Comment by RfC initiator

The above text has been repeatedly removed. The subsection in question is at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BP#Clean_Water_Act_trial The edits that gave rise to this RfC are and , removing the above text and demoting this from section to subsection.

I believe that the text should be reinstated. I believe its relevancy, neutrality and significance is self-evident and indisputable. The trial in question, which commenced in February and will run through 2014, is clearly deserving of a separate section, given the potential enormous exposure that BP has and the fact that this trial will be ongoing, generating headlines, through next year. The text in question states that the Justice Department is seeking maximum penalties that could run into the billions.

The trial, which has received extensive coverage in the media, deals with BP's actions in the Gulf Oil Spill for which BP has already pleaded guilty, and faces fine of up to $20 billion. The presence of other articles is immaterial. This is a very serious trial, and it behooves us to mention it to readers, and state what is at stake. Failure to do so would be a serious NPOV violation, as is the fact that the legal jeopardy that BP faces is not mentioned in the article thanks to the recent edits, and I have so tagged the article.

On the "$20 billion" figure, the BP Corporate editor monitoring the article on the talk page here has indicated that other sourcing states that the actual figure of BP's exposure from this trial is really $17 billion, not $ 20 billion. If that can be verified, the figure can be adjusted, but first we need to deal with whether we are going to deal with this in the article at all. Right now we are in the extraordinary position of an article on BP not stating that the U.S. Justice Department is seeking maximal penalties in the billions concerning an issue in which BP has already pleaded guilty to criminal charges. Coretheapple (talk) 19:10, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Comments by uninvolved editors

• I have been involved in the article in the past but I have not yet taken part in discussion or editing of the trial section. I think the paragraph is generally good, after expanding the contraction, and after telling the reader that one estimate is $20B while BP's estimate is $17B. This is an astoundingly large amount of money, unique in global corporate history let alone BP's 100-year history. It must be in the main article because of its great significance. Binksternet (talk) 23:24, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
• Comment by uninvolved editor The amounts involved are material, considering BP has a market cap of 130 billion dollars, and should therefore be mentioned. TFD (talk) 01:14, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

I do not think that there is any argument against mentioning the figures involved. The RfC is about whether the court case deserves it own top-level section and the wording of the text. Martin Hogbin (talk) 08:56, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

On re-reading the text that I removed I see that the figures are pure speculation. There would be no objection to adding some figures when we actually have some. Martin Hogbin (talk) 09:01, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Clarification regarding figures Coretheapple mentioned above that I had offered a clarification previously about the maximum penalty under the Clean Water Act and I'd like to explain this again for those who may not have seen. Following a judge's ruling in February, oil recovered by BP will not be included in calculations of any penalty that the company faces, which reduced the potential maximum penalty from $21 billion to approximately $17.6 billion. This estimate is explained in the Reuters source I linked before, and also the Environment News Service article provided by Petrarchan below. Recent articles about the trial including coverage by The Huffington Post, The New York Times, Bloomberg and Reuters as well as many more refer to a maximum penalty of around $17.5 or $17.6 billion, clearly showing this is the widely accepted estimate of the potential maximum penalty amount currently. These links should provide the verification of the lower estimate. Thanks. Arturo at BP (talk) 23:32, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

I would have no objection to a short sentence saying something like, 'BP is expected to have to pay from $XXX to $YYY in further penalties, dependent on the outcome of court cases'. Martin Hogbin (talk) 17:06, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Note: Per the new references, I made the change to $17.6 ealy this A.M. I think that concludes all of Arturo's requests from the 10th. ```Buster Seven Talk 18:31, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

• Comment by uninvolved editor This is the biggest accidental oil spill in the history of the oil industry, and an important event for the company to the extent that it even threatens its survival (not to mention the long-term prospects for the area's fishing industry and the health of the ocean). As it is now, it certainly does not violate WP:WEIGHT, as long as the editors remember WP:NOTNEWS, which can be a fine line to walk in an article of this nature. I'm actually surprised the coverage is not three times its present size. Tom Reedy (talk) 20:31, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Comments by involved editors

• Comment by involved editor. This article is about BP as more than 100-years old company. It already has a separate subsection about the Deepwater Horizon oil spill. Taking account that this article should cover all aspects about BP and its history, as also the fact that there are more specific articles about the the oil spill (namely: Deepwater Horizon oil spill and its series, for the court proceedings there is a separate article Deepwater Horizon litigation), having two sections about this event in this article gives undue weight to this event compared with the other aspects related to the company. As the trial is going on at the moment, the above-mentioned paragraph is speculative. It is justified to be added in the Deepwater Horizon litigation article but not here. Beagel (talk) 18:03, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
• Comment by involved editor As per Beagel above. I removed the content shown because, even based on the sources cited it is clearly biased against BP. Compare, for example the article text, "The Justice Department is seeking the stiffest fines possible", with the title of the supporting reference, "BP vows to 'vigorously defend' itself at US oil spill trial".— Preceding unsigned comment added by Martin Hogbin (talk • contribs)
• Stating the Obvious. I'm pretty sure you meant to write "Clean Water Act", is that correct? Why would the Clean Water Act trial (aka, "phase two" of the BP Gulf spill trial) be handled separately from the other litigation revolving around this spill? Right now, the explosion, spill and related court cases are covered together in one small section. I would suggest splitting the Gulf spill litigation into its own section, and the upcoming Clean Water Act trial could be handled within that. BP did recover some of the spilled oil, and the court agreed that amount would be deducted from their CWA fines. This is why the figure dropped. Source petrarchan47tc 19:49, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Sorry about the error. Yes, that's not a bad idea. (the separate section on the environmental litigation, that is) Coretheapple (talk) 20:07, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

• Comment by involved editorDoes not deserve its own section or subsection. I edited this down to something similar to the current statement, and removed the section divider, shortly after Core originally posted this. Reason it does not deserve its own section or subsection: This article is about BP as a whole; there is already a section on Industrial Accidents and within that, a subsection on DWH. DWH as a topic has 2 main articles (explosion and spill) and each of those has spawned several sub-sub articles. One of them is on litigation. These main DWH articles and the subarticles, including litigation, are linked as "see main" in the BP DWH section. Detail on this trial should go in litigation article. A summary of that should go into the 2 main DWH articles. And very compressed and highlevel content should be in the BP article, as brief sentences in the DWH section. Not blow-by-blow, which would quickly blow up to overwhelm the BP article. About the specific content. The content itself is overly florid and detailed for its desired location in the BP article - already getting into the blow-by-blow. I would edit as follows (just the facts, ma'am): (strikeouts are deleted text, italics are added text) "The Justice Department is seeking the stiffest fines possible.[2] A a finding of gross negligence, which would result in a four-fold increase in the fines BP would have to pay for violating the federal Clean Water Act, which could amount to $20 billion, and would leave the company liable for punitive damages for private claims that weren’t part of a $8.5 billion settlement the company reached with most private party plaintiffs in 2012. [3][4] [5]" Jytdog (talk) 20:04, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

As ugly as it may be, we need to reflect on what this trial means in light of BP's history and the history of this type of fine in general. BP has a 100 year history. If we find one singular event that effects the company as much as the Gulf spill has, that should be reflected in the coverage given by this article. As it is, Wikipedia is saying that the Gulf spill and related court cases are barely a side-note, indeed as influential as their "environmental initiatives" if judged by article space allotted. In fact, BP's stock since the spill has fallen by 1/3rd. Did any other event in this company's history have such an effect? The fines in this case are outstanding in terms of being the 'first ever of this size'. That fact alone warrants a reconsideration of the weight given by Wikipedia (ie, we, the editors). To argue that we are making too big a deal out of this, or because it's covered in other spin-off articles (the litigation article received 36 hits today) there is little need to mention it here, makes no sense to me unless NPOV isn't the true goal. petrarchan47tc 20:18, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Interesting question - Most important events in BP's history! Destruction of its colonialist business model in the ME and Africa. Divestment by British gov't. The Torrey Canyon spill (at that time, the biggest spill ever - gets a single sentence.). Pioneering role in Prudhoe Bay field (not mentioned) and in North Sea. Remaking under Browne via M&A. Involvement in Caspian projects which are of enormous geopolitical significance vis a vis Russia and Europe. Maybe pioneering role in deepwater Gulf of Mexico and off coast of Brazil. String of Big 3 disasters in the US over past 10 years are important for BP itself due to the loss of trust in the country where the "new BP" has made its biggest investments and concomitant increasing size of penalties. Even if DWH were the only one, it would have been significant. This is very US/Euro focused - I am still learning about BP in Africa, far east, and S America. How would you answer the question? Jytdog (talk)

Sorry, what question exactly? Since this conversation is similar enough to a past one with Rangoon11, instead of repeating myself, here is my comment about US centered, recent content. petrarchan47tc 20:28, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

I don't take questions as rhetorical, and you asked only one: "Did any other event in this company's history have such an effect?" ie. What are the most important events in BP's history? (if we are trying to judge weight...)Jytdog (talk) 20:46, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

I wonder if it wouldn't be a better idea to focus on bite-size pieces? It seems we do have enough information about the impact of the Gulf spill to see that its coverage in the article is massively imbalanced, for the reasons I described in my response to your 'failed experiment". After the media coverage of the problems at this page, there was a suggestion that each section written by BP should be analyzed for spin or missing content. Why don't we, as a group, decide a plan of action and focus on one thing at a time. As for a list of "worse things ever" for BP, this might prove helpful. petrarchan47tc 22:27, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

I agree that a wholesale reappraisal of the POV of this article is urgently needed. Hopefully this RfC will be the catalyst for such a reappraisal, and also will get more eyes on this article. I also think that your idea of breaking out a section on the litigation has merit. However it is structured, the information contained in the paragraph that is the subject of this RfC is either going to be in the article or not. That's the issue before us. Coretheapple (talk) 22:12, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

I agree too. This page needs to revert to being an encyclopedia article about a company rather than an attack site. Martin Hogbin (talk) 08:30, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

• Re-comment by involved editor - last night I actually added to this section, although I do not believe that the subsection should exist and there is already too much information on the litigation here. I did that because the material added recently by editors who want this information here, was of embarrassingly poor quality. Information was spread across two sections (the DWH section and this subsection) and the content expressed no understanding of the flow of the litigation nor how the DOJ's Aug 31 filing fit into it - it was just a tactical step, not a dramatic change in strategy - and not the Dramatically Important Action that the content made it out to be. This is what litigation is like. The parties have goals (for BP, come through this with as few penalties as possible; for the plaintiffs, come out of this with the maximum penalties they can win) and there are endless tactics deployed and postures taken to achieve those goals. The article detailing the litigation (Deepwater Horizon litigation) is even worse - people "cared" enough to post a lot of fragments based on news reports, but not enough to fit them into a coherent narrative. My hope is that the text currently here gets moved as a whole into the litigation article and a brief, summary statement as per my post above is stated here, in the DWH section - not in a subsection. Again, blow by blow descriptions of tactical filings (and reactions to them) and daily trial reports should NOT be here. I don't understand how editors can be so passionate about driving this content into this article and including it in WIkipedia, but have not put in the time to understand even these issues enough to write about them accurately. I don't get it. Jytdog (talk)

I was also wondering how it came to be that there was no mention of BP's guilty plea to criminal charges connected to its 1999 North Shore oil spill. That kind of inexplicable omission troubles me, and there may be a good deal more, which is why I am not enthused with the kind of wholesale slashing that you advocate. This article has gone through the whitewash mill already, it doesn't need to go through it again. Coretheapple (talk) 14:10, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Less detail here?

I wonder if the following paragraph could be cut back some?:

On August 13, 2012 BP filed papers with the court urging it to approve an estimated $7.8 billion settlement reached with 125,000 individuals and businesses in the consolidated suit, asserting that its actions "did not constitute gross negligence or willful misconduct."[370] In response to the BP filing and in order to ensure that BP could not use its filing and any possible acceptance of the settlement to escape a judgement of gross negligence,[370] on August 31 2012 the US Department of Justice (DOJ) filed papers describing the spill as an example of "gross negligence and willful misconduct".[371][21] BP rejected the charges saying "BP believes it was not grossly negligent and looks forward to presenting evidence on this issue at trial in January."[370] A ruling of gross negligence would result in a four-fold increase in Clean Water Act penalties, which would cause the penalties to reach approximately $17.6 billion, and would increase damages in the other suits as well.[372][373][374] Gandydancer (talk) 14:33, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Agreed somewhat. All this should go into the Litigation article with only a brief summary left behind. This is directly related to the topic above, not sure why you made a new section. The last sentence is all that is needed out of what you pulled out here. Core insisted on the 2nd and 3rd sentences. The 2nd sentence makes no sense without the first, which I added along with the prefacing phrase to the 2nd sentence. . Jytdog (talk) 14:44, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

It can be reduced in size without it being a "brief summary," especially since some editors have been striving to make that "brief summary" so uninformative that it fails to contain a reference to the billions of dollars ($17 billion at last count) that is being sought by the Justice Department. This RfC was brought about because of the whitewashing of that very section, removing the reference to the billions sought in damages by the Justice Department. That's why we're here. Let's be clear on that. What we're seeing at work here is the same kind of overly aggressive slashing that resulted in the section on the punishment for the 1999 oil spill not mentioning BP's guilty plea. JYTdog, you sought aggressively to remove any mention of the billions in exposure from this section and now you remove efforts to take out extraneous detail. I just can't figure out what you're doing here. Coretheapple (talk) 14:52, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

I just implemented what I wrote above, and Gandy's suggestion too. Jytdog (talk) 15:02, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, and in the course of that you removed any mention of the fact that the Justice Department was claiming gross negligence and willful misconduct, while you included the docket number. I've fixed that. Why did you include the docket number, which is unencyclopedic and trivial, while not including a reference to the gross negligence/misconduct claim even though it is nowhere else referenced in that section? Coretheapple (talk) 15:18, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

@ Jytdog Please read my post again because actually I didn't make any suggestions. I was looking for input. Again and again one finds the ol' Ac-Cent-Tchu-Ate the Positive, eliminate the negative here and I want to avoid that. Gandydancer (talk) 15:28, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

That's right. All you did was say that it could be "cut back some," and most certainly did not suggest that it be trimmed so as to exclude any mention of the Justice Department's contention that BP committed gross negligence. Without that sentence on what the DOJ is seeking, the sentence that follows (about quadruple damages) makes no sense. Coretheapple (talk) 15:33, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Gandy, sorry I took it as a suggestion. I agreed with your "wondering." And i am NOT downplaying the negative. I did remove blow by blow which is too much detail for this article. I left the biggest thing, which is that BP is at risk for a finding of gross negligence - which it always was - and what the consequences of that finding would be. Core, it figures that you don't find the docket number important. If you want to do any actual research on this - you know, so you can actually know the details of what you are writing about - the docket number is essential for finding information. And as I wrote above, BP was ALWAYS at risk for a finding of gross negligence -- DOJ only filed those papers in response to BP's attempt to establish a judge-approved record that it was not. As stated in the reliable source that Core provided. All of that is entirely normal in litigation, where everybody maneuvers to maximize the chances of getting what they want, in a settlement or in court. Which I explained above already. Frustrating. You don't understand these things, in the big picture (i.e. how litigation goes) nor in the details of this specific litigation, yet you are so demanding that your expression of them be accepted as correct. Jytdog (talk) 15:50, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Very simple question: Why did you omit that the DOJ accused BP of gross negligence and willful misconduct, and that it was seeking the maximum penalties? Don't give me the "big picture." Give me an answer. Coretheapple (talk) 16:09, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/04/gulf-oil-spill-2010-bp-gross-negligence_n_1856209.html Here is what it says: The new comments do not represent a change in U.S. officials' legal stance, said David Uhlmann, a University of Michigan professor and former environmental crimes prosecutor. "The Justice Department has consistently maintained that BP and Transocean were grossly negligent and engaged in willful misconduct in the events leading up to the Gulf oil spill," Uhlmann said in an email to Reuters. The department's latest filing "contains sharper rhetoric and a more indignant tone than the government has used in the past," he said. But the filing does exhibit exasperation on the part of government lawyers. They wrote that they decided to elaborate on BP's alleged gross negligence because they believed BP was trying to escape full responsibility. The Justice Department said they feared that, "if the United States were to remain silent, BP later may urge that its arguments had assumed the status of agreed facts." End of quote. BP has an obligation to its shareholders to make its liability as small as possible and that is what they are doing. The DOJ has a responsibility to get the max for the people, which is what they have always been doing. This is just legal maneuvering, blow by blow stuff. Jytdog (talk) 16:22, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

OK, thanks for clarifying that your position is that because all that stuff was in the source materials it didn't have to be mentioned in the Wiki article. That's what I thought, but I just wanted to be sure.

"Legal maneuvering, blow by blow stuff"? That's your opinion. We just have to reflect what's in the reliable sources and not what any particular Wiki editor thinks. I know, you're the expert, and the rest of us (particularly me) are morons, but that's how it has to be. Coretheapple (talk) 16:31, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Core my understanding is that you based the "going for the max" content on the August DOJ filing. Is that accurate? Jytdog (talk) 16:33, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

No, it's not accurate. Nowhere did I insert anything about "going for the max." The sentence on "stiffest fines possible" is from an article from Feb 2013 at the commencement of the oil spill trial. It's easy to find the source for that sentence; just look at the footnote. Coretheapple (talk) 16:36, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

I see, so my understanding was wrong. Thanks for pointing me to the obvious thing I should have looked at. my bad. I can admit when I am wrong. And oh please pardon me for using a brief slang phrase to describe going for the "stiffest fines possible". The source is covering the immediately pre-trial posturing tactics that go on in every litigation. It is still an absurd detail to include. of course DOJ is going for the max. of course BP will try to minimize its liability. It is blow by blow stuff. Not important. It doesn't tell the reader anything that is not painfully obvious. Now if in reality the DOJ said "oh, we intend to treat BP with kid gloves in this trial" and BP said "Oh, in this trial we want to pay as much as possible to atone for the terrible thing we did" this would be Significant. But in the real world, if they saw eye to eye enough, there would have been a settlement already. You can leave this, it is not worth fighting about with you.Jytdog (talk) 16:48, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

It would be pretrial posturing if this was a traffic accident lawsuit. But this is more like the civil trial that followed the OJ Simpson prosecution, except that Simpson was acquitted while BP was convicted. BP has already pleaded guilty to criminal charges stemming from the very same acts that are the subject of the criminal trial. So no, I don't think that we should whitewash this particular aspect of the proceedings. Coretheapple (talk) 16:52, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Already said I am not arguing with you on keeping this or not. And I am not whitewashing. It is not fair. Discussions about weight are honest differences of judgement. Jytdog (talk) 17:49, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

We're not talking about "weight." We're talking about necessary information being omitted from the article on specious grounds. Coretheapple (talk) 18:24, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

whether the detail is ncecessay is exactly about weight. Reasonable, good faith people can differ on weight. Please stop violating the AGF policy. Jytdog (talk) 18:42, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

I have no interest in your motives for your particular actions and I have no idea what they are. However, your removal of significant detail for reasons that make little sense, combined with your insults and your denigration of other editors as "environmentalists" and "ignorant," has not made it easy. Coretheapple (talk) 18:56, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

It is not a bad thing to be an environmentalist. Not at all. And it is not bad to be ignorant, either. I am ignorant about a lot of things. These things only become issues if people who are environmentalists, or business people, are too singly focused and won't compromise and start POV-pushing on those issues. And ignorance is only a problem if judgments based on it are pushed too hard and there is no willingness to learn and change. And I do insist that the only thing that 'whitewash' means is POV-pushing, bad faith editing. I told you before that i completely agree that bad things need to be in the article and I pushed for the end to "quick delete" so there would be room to add it (remember?). But good faith disputes are possible over the level of detail. I'm repeating myself. Should stop. Jytdog (talk) 19:22, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

OK. I don't want to repeat myself either. I just wanted to convey to you the message that while you may have a self-image as being a neutral arbiter, you tend at times to project a level of condescension that undercuts that image, and can tend to raise concerns among other editors as to whether you are contributing in good faith. Please take this as a friendly remark, nothing more. Just to be clear, I'm not at all offended by any of your remarks, including the one that I was moved to delete from my user talk page. Coretheapple (talk) 19:28, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! Jytdog (talk) 19:50, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Survey

• Include. The spill was a serious environmental disaster that had a significant financial and legal impact on BP. Several readers are likely to come here to find out about the spill, rather than about the company, and the navigation template will help them find their way to the relevant articles. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 21:14, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
• Include at top of page. There should be no question the template belongs here. As it is, the template exists on all related pages but this one, even though BP is listed first in the series. petrarchan47tc 21:20, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

*Oppose 1. We already have a navbox for Deepwater (shown below) and this is wholly duplicative, and also less comprehensive. 2. The said nav box is already included in this article. 3. This article is not part of a "series" of articles on a narrow topic, Deepwater is rather a small part of BP as a topic, and BP existed long before Deepwater. Side bar navigation devices are used for closely defined series of articles.Rangoon11 (talk) 21:22, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

• Include BP is included in the box as part of the series for a reason: even if totally whitewashed and turned into a reflection of the agenda of the BP p.r. department, the BP article is an intrinsic part of the Deepwater Horizon series. It contains information not available elsewhere on the impact of the disaster on the company, even if all other information reflecting negatively on the company is blotted out. Thus it would be difficult to conceive of a BP article that does not belong in that box. The box is there for a reason, and its placement at the top of the article is designed specifically to guide readers toward articles of interest. Coretheapple (talk) 21:33, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
• Include BP will forever be connected to the Deepwater disaster. Various people, from Presidents to paupers, have called DWH "the worst environmental catastrophe in history." You can.t hide from over 200 million gallons of oil spilling into the gulf. Millions of people (see:readers) were affected. Why would we even think of hiding a connection (BP to DWH) that every knowledgeable adult on the planet makes. ```Buster Seven Talk 12:51, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
• Include I had to take some time to think about this. My decision rests on the fact that the Gulf spill has been called the second greatest environmental disaster in American history and the oil company BP is largely responsible. So with that thinking it should be obvious that it belongs in the series. Gandydancer (talk) 15:55, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose As per Rangoon11. Martin Hogbin (talk) 16:01, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
• Include As the editor that created the template I can at least attest to the reason it was created and some small background about its use so far. The Deepwater Horizon article had already been split several times. The article had consensus to split a number of sections even further and reduce them in the main article to smaller summaries. One concern raised was that, with all the splits, the bulk of the information was now in separated articles and links may not be as obvious to some readers. I proposed using a template to organize all the articles under the scope of the Deepwater Horizon oil spill into one "series" template as is done on a number of FA articles. The opinion of some is that using a template in this manner is not appropriate, but as I said I based this on an FA articles use of a similar box. See Mitt Romney. The navigation boxes are currently hidden and the casual reader may not ever click the two un-collapse buttons required to see it. The template is about a specific event and the related subjects. That event is the oil spill itself and all those related articles and provides "at a glance" information the reader can see quickly, where the reader may be expecting such information. I believe that readers are looking for this information and believe the "series" template to have encyclopedic value. I should note that I did not add the template here originally, when the template was created, because I figured a bold addition such as that would surely be reverted. After the Arturo controversy I went ahead and made the bold edit to add the template and it was indeed reverted. Any addition such as this on an article like this one requires a consensus. I am glad we are having the discussion.--Amadscientist (talk) 18:56, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

I am struggling to see the relevance of the Mitt Romney article. Having both a nav box and a side bar for exactly the same topic is a mess and sets a bad precedent for this project, particularly as those in favour primarily want it there purely to provide greater emphasis on Deepwater in this article rather than for any policy reason or to serve genuine navigational needs.

The nav box is also far more comprehenive and is the appropriate form of navigation feature. The possibility also exists to make the navbox more visible.Rangoon11 (talk) 19:16, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Quite the opposite of a mess. It's a finding aid. Look at Mitt Romney. Totally on-point. If anyone has a problem with the Romney template or this one, they can nominate it for deletion. The fact is that there is a gulf oil spill template, it relates to an immense and complex controversy, and every assistance we can render to our readers in navigating the articles is helpful. You know, Wikipedia is not exactly user friendly, and readers need all the help they can get. Coretheapple (talk) 19:52, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

The Romney article is one of the 4 million or so WP articles. So what. It's not even a particularly good article, despite being FA, and it certainly didn't achieve FA because of a side bar. Having a nav box and a side bar for exactly the same topic is messy, duplicative and confusing.Rangoon11 (talk) 20:01, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

State of Palestine is another with top and bottom navboxes. So were the articles on the Second World War that I skimmed. If I was a betting man, I'd wager you a nice sum of money that just they are commonly found in large and complex subject matter. Coretheapple (talk) 20:24, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

And why do you keep saying "confusing"? That's like saying that having more than one dictionary on your desk is confusing. It makes no sense to say that. Coretheapple (talk) 20:29, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

particularly as those in favour primarily want it there purely to provide greater emphasis on Deepwater in this article rather than for any policy reason or to serve genuine navigational needs. Not so. Serving the readers needs is a primary concern of most quality editors. Also, most editors here can navigate articles like a Gran Prix racer. But thats not so for our readers. Giving our reader as much assistance as we can is logical. If its not a principle, it should be. ```Buster Seven Talk 01:18, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose - 1) This is a pretty clear example of recentism. BP as a whole is a much more important and notable topic than the Deepwater Horizon oil spill. Placing the template so prominently is clearly undue. It looks like some kind of scarlet letter. 2) This is obviously an other stuff exists argument, but can any shows me where the "Exxon Valdez template" is at the top of ExxonMobil? 3) One minor caveat here; I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to putting the template under the appropriate subsection (i.e. BP#Deepwater_Horizon_well_explosion_and_oil_spill). NickCT (talk) 13:43, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose per reasons given by Rangoon11 and NickCT.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 18:45, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Comment A direct comparison between the Valdez spill and BP's gulf spill cannot be made for 3 reasons. 1) the Gulf spill lasted 87 days and was the equivalent of a Valdez-sized spill every three days during that period. 2) The massive devastation caused (during the clean-up) by the Valdez spill is actually the fault of BP, not Exxon]. 3) The Deepwater disaster caused a 30% drop in BP's value, which remains the case to this day. Exxon is the number one company in the world right now, at this point the company is obviously unscathed by the spill. If a company is all about stock value, and an event impacts that stock by 1/3, that event is pretty damn important to the story of the company as a whole. Were the trials long-past, and the stock value closer to pre-spill levels, I would agree the navbox could go under the DWH spill section rather than the Lede. petrarchan47tc 19:41, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

@petrarchan47 - Not really. The two spills are quite comparable. True the BP spill involved about ten times as much oil, but oil dumped in the middle of the gulf is significantly less meaningful than oil dumped off the coast of Alaska. In total the economic impact of Valdez was probably over half of the impact Deepwater created. In terms of the company's stock value, give it 30 years and I'm pretty sure BP will be sitting as pretty as ExxonMobile is. ;-) NickCT (talk) 01:59, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Sure, but just as we want to avoid recentism, we have to be cognizant of reality, which is that the Deepwater Horizon spill continues to reverberate after three years, which is precisely why readers seek out articles on this topic and why this template is warranted as a reader guide. It was an exceptional event. The fact that it was recent just makes it more important, really. We don't have "Eruption of Mt. Vesuvius" templates. Coretheapple (talk) 02:16, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

@ NickCT -- Except that "oil dumped in the middle of the gulf is significantly less meaningful than oil dumped off the coast of Alaska" is untrue. The Deepwater was an oil gusher, not spilled oil, but emanating from the seafloor where it was immediately mixed with an industrial strength solvent called "Corexit", which made the toxicity of the oil 52 times greater, and made the toxic compounds airborne and more permeable to humans, fish (chemicals that can emulsify crude oil can do a number on cell walls and anything made of lipids) and the environment. That dispersed oil, as well as tar balls and tar mats, continue to wash up, and cause massive health and ecological problems on the coasts of four US states. The air in oiled marshes is killing off the insects in Louisiana. We also don't yet know the amount of oil "spilled", as whistleblowers with video evidence, are alleging a coverup of the true amount. petrarchan47tc 05:39, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

@Coretheapple - I largely agree with what you're saying. But at the same time, I'm sure Valdez was "reverberating" about as much a Deepwater is three after the event.

@petrarchan47 - Mate, if you think me dumping 100 barrels of oil in the middle the Atlantic is going to be as environmentally harmful as me going to your local protected nature reserve and dumping it there, you've got to check your perspecitive on reality. NickCT (talk) 14:52, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

@NickCT -- Reality: "The spill fouled 1,100 miles of beaches and marsh along the Gulf coast" source -- "from the Louisiana barrier islands west of the Mississippi River to the white sands of the Florida Panhandle. A still-unknown portion settled on the floor of the Gulf and the inlets along its coast. Tar balls are still turning up on the beaches, and a 2012 hurricane blew seemingly fresh oil ashore in Louisiana. Well owner BP, which is responsible for the cleanup, says it's still (April 2013) monitoring 165 miles of shore" source "I have seen some of the smaller islands, that birds nest on, literally disappear in the past three years. The oil killed the marsh grass and the mangrove roots leaving the islands with nothing to hold them together and now some are completely gone. As far as the amount of tar balls washing up on beaches — it varies from day to day. BP’s claims that the Gulf Coast is back to normal are simply not true." source petrarchan47tc 20:30, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

• Include - if this template doesn't belong in the BP article, then the template shouldn't exist at all (not an invitation to argue for the deletion of the template).  Mr.choppers | ✎  05:37, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Given that there is a more expansion template (which is already included in the article) of the subject that is the oilspill, one can say that the inclusion of the less expansive template is unnecessary.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 08:05, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

• One or the other - not both Wikipedia does not need multiple inter-article links. If the only choics is up or down on the pretty template oppose inclusion if that is the choice offered. Personally, a link to other articles is good, multiple links is not so good. Collect (talk) 12:19, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

The guideline that applies then is WP:OVERLINK.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 16:55, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

No, "overlink" applies to those pesky internal links that assume the reader doesn't know simple words. Coretheapple (talk) 19:25, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

I was referring to this clause of OVERLINK/REPEATLINK:

A term should be linked, generally, at most once in an article's lead, perhaps once again in the main article body, and perhaps once at first occurrence in each infobox, table, caption, and footnote.

Using the logic of REPEATLINK and extending it to templates, there is already a template which is far more expansive regarding the subject of the oil spill, as such the more expansive template should be used over the less expansive navigation box. That is my opinion, which others can differ from. This is an RfC after all, which is designed to get multiple opinions to see what the greater consensus is (especially from editors who were not previously engaged in editing an article).--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 04:23, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

• Include -- a useful feature for readers, and in my mind that's a sufficient reason to include it. Funny how some editors want to make it more complicated than that. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 11:35, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose per Rangoon11, NickCT and RightCowLeftCoast although arguments presented by Amdasscientist are valid. I would find the inclusion of this template justified and being reader-friendly if the DWH section in this article would be just a "normal" mentioning of this event which is usually expected if more specific articles exist. Instead of this, we have undue weight section which could without problem serve as a separate article. Links to all relevant articles are already provided in that section. In these conditions including this template does not have any added value for readers but rather serves to point to BP. As for argument that if not included here the template should not exist at all, I disagree with this logic. The template is useful for the DWH articles, particularly after several splits of the main article (which is the Deepwater Horizon oil spill and not BP). This was already explained by Amadscientist. At the same time the question is if the BP should be included in this template or not. All articles included in this template, except BP, deals with the DWH or with the different aspects of the spill as a main topic of the articles. The only exclusion id BP in which case the DWH or any of its aspects is not the major topic of the article. This article also does not cover any aspects of the spill which is not already included in or which does not belong the more specific article. Beagel (talk) 08:22, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

*Oppose - This article is not part of a series on DWH, it concerns a topic which existed long before DWH. It looks like it is being shoe horned in here simply to give more prominence to DWH in this article.2.101.1.7 (talk) 21:00, 5 May 2013 (UTC) Sock of User: Rangoon11 petrarchan47tc 21:15, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

• Move to Deepwater Horizon section. It's certainly appropriate for content contained in this article, but it is general practice to place navigation templates at the head of the associated content. VanIsaac_{WS Vex}^contribs 11:00, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose (or move to DH section) - This is a tough call, but BP is a huge company, and it seems to be a violation of WP:UNDUE to emphasize this one incident with a prominent sidebar at the top of the article. There are at least 3 better approaches: (1) use a footer navbox; (2) move the sidebar into the DH section; or (3) create a new DH category and put the article in that category. Bottom line: a colorful, large sidebar near the top offends both WP:UNDUE and WP:RECENTISM. --Noleander (talk) 16:38, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
• Include. A helpful graphic. Does no harm, and I don't see any NPOV issue because of the prominence of the oil spill in BP's history. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 16:23, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
• Include the template. Much better idea than including the attack material in this article, subject of a separate survey below. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:05, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

*Strong Oppose - Why BP and none of the other organisations relevant to the spill (Halliburton, Transocean, Gulf Coast Restoration Organization, MMS, Anadarko etc)? Why have two navigation templates on the Deepwater Horizon oil spill? Why place the template in pride of place at the top of this article? The template and its placing in this article seems at best badly thought out and executed, and at worst simply another attempt to give even more prominence to Deepwater in this article. 2.97.215.241 (talk) 10:48, 11 May 2013 (UTC)Striking sock comment per Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Rangoon11 Coretheapple (talk) 20:57, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

• Support using this template, and any other features that make Wikipedia easier to use. Let's think of the 11-year-olds who are trying to find material for a school project, and make it easy for them. GoodeOldeboy (talk) 14:28, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose I see no basis for including BP as part of the template on Deepwater Horizon unless we list every involved company. We definitely should not have this template at the top of the article. The current section on the spill is excessive and WP:UNDUE in the first place with this just magnifying the problem.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 19:51, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Note: not sure what other companies you are talking about. No other company is named on the template, nor does Halliburton oil spill redirect to BP oil spill. A Google search of Halliburton oil spill found this New York Times/Reuters article, The big oil services company set aside $637 million to settle some claims from the 2010 BP oil spill. Notice how WP:RS refers to the spill in question? To ask for this template to be placed at Halliburton is WP:UNDUE. petrarchan47tc 21:35, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose per reasons above, unless moved to the relevant section. To put simply, the article is not part of a series of articles on the Deepwater Horizon spill - rather, it is a related article about the involved company, but nevertheless an article that contains a whole lot more information beyond just BP's involvement in the spill. The template being near the top places undue emphasis on this particular event in the history of BP, and while it is probably the most notable thing that BP is known for, it is not the reason for BP's notability. Putting the template in the DH section would also allow us consolidate all the hatnotes on top of that section right now.  — daranz [ t ] 20:24, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
• Move to Deepwater Horizon section as per Vanisaac. It also looks like we're unlikely to get consensus on either inclusion at top or removal. ~KvnG 12:16, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Threaded discussion

Survey

• Cover Both - Roughly 1 paragraph - Dedicate 2-3 to both the health/environmental thing and 2-3 lines to financial/legal consequences. NickCT (talk)
• Summarize of lead, in the lead of the article Deepwater Horizon oil spill, the following half of paragraph and whole paragraph extensively summarizes that subject of this article's role in the spill:

  Numerous investigations explored the causes of the explosion and record-setting spill. Notably, the U.S. government's September 2011 report pointed to defective cement on the well, faulting mostly BP, but also well operator Transocean and contractor Halliburton.[17][18] Earlier in 2011, a White House commission likewise blamed BP and its partners for a series of cost-cutting decisions and an insufficient safety system, but also concluded that the spill resulted from "systemic" root causes and "absent significant reform in both industry practices and government policies, might well recur".[19]

  In November 2012, BP and the United States Department of Justice settled federal criminal charges with BP pleading guilty to 11 counts of manslaughter, two misdemeanors, and a felony count of lying to Congress. BP also agreed to four years of government monitoring of its safety practices and ethics, and the Environmental Protection Agency announced that BP would be temporarily banned from new contracts with the US government. BP and the Department of Justice agreed to a record-setting $4.525 billion in fines and other payments[20][21][22] but further legal proceedings not expected to conclude until 2014 are ongoing to determine payouts and fines under the Clean Water Act and the Natural Resources Damage Assessment.[23][24] As of February 2013, criminal and civil settlements and payments to a trust fund had cost the company $42.2 billion.[25]

  Given that this is what has been seen as the most important parts of the subject of this article's role in the event, then perhaps we should take these parts of that article's lead and summarize it further to paragraph of no more than six standard length sentences.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 05:15, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
• Both should be covered. As to length, the two paragraphs from the DWH oil spill article are concise and informative. Rather than summarize (which, to me, implies "whittling" out} some of the important information, I suggest a Wikipedia editor do a re-write...same information, said differently. Nothing removed just relocated. ```Buster Seven Talk 02:13, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
• Both. I agree with Buster7 above. I think that the significance of the gulf oil spill is such that it requires a thorough exploration in this article. Remember that everywhere but in this article it is referred to as the BP oil spill. Coretheapple (talk) 02:17, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
• Both with the addition of Corexit coverage. I wholeheartedly agree with Buster's suggestion. I disagree with an arbitrarily pre-scribed number of paragraphs until we're clear about the true impact of this event on the company. petrarchan47tc 02:46, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

• Cover only aspects directly about the company per WP:UNDUE as there are detailed articles about all aspects of DWH (just see the template in the relevant section to find out all these articles). As for size - roughly one paragraph per NickCT (in addition to the existing paragraph in the 'Stock' subsection of the 'Corporate affairs' section, so it would be already two paragraphs together). WP:SS should be applied to avoid WP:POVFORK, WP:RECENT should be also avoided. Beagel (talk) 04:46, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

• Clarification of my position: as there are several opinions that the suitable size is two paragraphs, I will support this as said by FurrySings if this is the consensus. As for the content, I support the proposal by Buster Seven described in the 'Version #2 Of DWH lead' subsection. There may be some copyediting but it seems o be a good basis. Beagel (talk) 21:00, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

• Cover only aspects directly about the company. The rest is described in several linked articles. Summarising the lead of the main article on the subject, as suggested above, seems like a reasonable idea. Martin Hogbin (talk) 15:41, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
• Cover the environmental and health consequences of the spill, as well as the financial and legal consequences for the company. The length should be whatever is required. Corexit should be included, as a Google News search indicates that it is a part of the overall story and interconnected with BP. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 16:03, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
• Both should be covered, but greater weight should be given to the financial and legal consequences. The environmental and health consequences were why there were financial and legal consequences. As far as length, I think three good-sized paragraphs should be the maximum length, with two being preferred.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 16:33, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
• Both with length to be determined in the usual manner for WP, but 2 paragraphs or so seems appropriate. The consequences of the spill, both economic and ecologic, are notable for BP based on coverage of this event in reliable sources. -- Scray (talk) 11:33, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
• Both as per Buster and Petrarchan. Gandydancer (talk) 12:31, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
• Both, but major re-balancing is needed. Right now "impacts" and "prosecutions" constitute about 3/4 of the coverage of the spill. Major info about the spill and capping is missing. It should be rebalanced to put impacts and prosecutions (together) down to about 1/3 of the spill coverage. North8000 (talk) 00:54, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
• Both Coverage should be about 3 to 6 lines, in one medium sized paragraph or two short paragraphs. FurrySings (talk) 06:03, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
• Both aspects should be covered (environmental/health and financial/legal). As for length, I would say four shortish, tightly written paragraphs, possibly within two sub-sections, but almost certainly no more than that. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 17:40, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
• Both and two paragraphs should be fine.--Fox1942 (talk) 09:45, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Threaded discussion

• Comment The amount of coverage should roughly reflect the amount of impact the Gulf spill has had on the company. This might take some investigation, but my first thought is that it caused an initial 40% drop in BP stock, which has only recovered about 10% since then (so, BP is 30% smaller than before the spill due to sell-offs meant to cover spill costs). How do we justify only a few paragraphs to cover something that has had such a large impact on the company?

Another point to consider is that the Corexit story and BP's role in it has yet to be added to the article. From the previous RfC, it was widely accepted that any part of the Gulf spill story that directly relates to BP should be covered in depth in this article. A quick summary: Corexit was chosen by BP to, according to officials, keep the oil from hitting shores; according to independents like Hugh Kaufman, it was to hide the amount of oil spilled and reduce related fines. Corexit was used in unprecedented amounts and untested ways (off-label use, like underwater and near shore). Recent studies are concluding that it is the Corexit that is causing mutations and death in the Gulf, lack of insects on barrier islands, PAHs in the sands and in the air, and human health problems due to BP's hiding the safety manuals and threatening workers' jobs if they wore respirators. The company lied about the safety of Corexit, according to an investigation by Newsweek and GAP. They knew it would hurt their clean up crews. It is a cover-up, and an enormous part of BP's story and particularly the Gulf section of this article. See here here and here for more. petrarchan47tc 22:49, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree that there needs to be added text on Corexit, which is only mentioned in passing in the current version. Coretheapple (talk) 15:14, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

According to Yahoo Finance!, the adjusted closing price of the BP share was on 19 April 2010, day before explosion, $52.46. On 18 June 2013, the closing price was $43.29 or 82.5% of the price of 19 April 2010. This is 17.5%, not 30% less as stated above. The impact of DWH is already described in this article in the 'Stock' subsection, which is under the 'Corporate affairs' section and not under the DWH section.

The Corexit issues are described in the Corexit, Deepwater Horizon oil spill response, Health consequences of the Deepwater Horizon oil spill and Deepwater Horizon oil spill articles, and it is also mentioned in the Environmental impact of the Deepwater Horizon oil spill articles. It is too specific to be covered here and it is already has a broad coverage elsewhere. Beagel (talk) 04:29, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

The consensus from the previous RfC was that anything directly attributed to BP regarding the Gulf spill should be covered in this article. The corexit story with regard to BP's specific involvement is not covered in depth at any other article on wiki. Even if it were covered in depth, that would not be a reason to exclude it here given the directives from the community.

"Dudley has tried to revive BP after the slump following the 2010 Gulf of Mexico oil spill by selling $38 billion in assets and shutting down production in many areas to ensure safety, causing output to decline 7 percent last year. The share price is still about a third lower than before the spill." - Bloomberg March 7, 2013 So, more like 33% than 30%, my bad. My point is not to add this information, but to use it in determining a proper amount of coverage for this event. Clearly anyone who argues "one or two paragraphs should cover it" is missing something. petrarchan47tc 18:25, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

The closing price on 18 June 2013 was 82.5% of the adjusted closing price of 19 April 2010, the eve of the DWH explosion. Share prices were provided here, so this is just the simple mathematics. Talking as of today that the share price is 30% or 33% less, is incorrect and does not correspond to the actual share price which is publicly available. The conclusion that the Corexit issue should be covered in this article per the previous RfC, is syrprising interpretation of the discussion and results of that RfC. Beagel (talk) 18:54, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Wether it is 17.5% or 37.5%, I think Petra's point is accurate if not in its specifics. The DWH oil spill had a drastic effect, and is still having a drastic effect, on the BP Corporations financial health. ```Buster Seven Talk 16:14, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree what Buster Seven's assessment. To me, it is abundantly obvious. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 16:32, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Here is a suggestion that takes environmental information from the first, second and third sections of the spill section and reduces it to one screen of information:

Environmental impacts continue, and research is ongoing. [391] According to the United States Department of Justice, oil spills are known to cause both immediate and long-term harm to human health and ecosystems and can cause long-term effects years later even if the oil remains in the environment for a relatively short period of time.[362] In 2012 local fishermen reported that crab, shrimp, and oyster fishing operations had not yet recovered from the oil spill and many feared that the Gulf seafood industry will never recover. [383] In 2013, researchers found that as much as one-third of the oil remains on the bottom of the seafloor and that the spilled oil could have long-term effects on both human and marine life .[392] Three years after the oil spill tar balls are still found on the Mississippi coast, an oil sheen has been evident along coastal marshland[393] and erosion has increased due to the death of mangrove trees and marsh grass.[394][395]

In 2012 it was reported that Gulf residents and cleanup workers continue to suffer serious health problems related to the spill[396] and in 2013 studies found that many Gulf residents reported mental health problems such as anxiety, depression and PTSD. These studies also showed that the bodies of former spill cleanup workers carry biomarkers of many chemicals contained in the oil.[397] A study that investigated the health effects among children in Louisiana and Florida living less than 10 miles from the coast found that more than a third of the parents reported physical or mental health symptoms among their children. [397]

This information gives a very minimal version to bring the environmental effects up to date. I just don't see how this could be cut back even further and I'm sure that some think I have cut it too much. We should never forget that this article is about the corporation that is responsible for the largest man-made disaster in the US. I have not added a Corexit section, which I feel is needed as well. Gandydancer (talk) 14:57, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Version #2 Of DWH lead

The U.S. government's Sept 2011 report was one of many investigations exploring the explosion and subsequent record-setting oil spill. The report pointed to defective cement used to construct the well, faulting mostly BP, but also rig operator Transocean and contractor Halliburton. [17][18]. A White House commission had earlier found fault with BP and its partners for a series of cost-cutting decisions and an inadequate safety system. The report stated that "the spill resulted from systemic root causes and absent significant reform in both industry practices and government policies, might well recur." [19]

In Nov 2012, BP pled guilty to 11 counts of manslaughter, two misdemeanors, and a felony count of lying to Congress. BP agreed to four years of government monitoring of its safety practices and ethics, and the EPA announced that BP would be temporarily banned from new contracts with the US government. BP and the Department of Justice agreed to a record-setting $4.525 billion in fines and other payments.[20][21][22] Legal proceedings continue to determine additional fines and payouts under the Clean Water Act and the Natural Resources Damage Assessment.[23][24] As of Feb 2013, criminal and civil settlements and payments have cost the company $42.2 Billion. [25]

• ```Buster Seven Talk 20:50, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

That is not too bad in my opinion. The italic emphasis, which was not in the original, should go, but it is a good start. I would use the exact wording from the DHS lead at the start, the shortened version is less clear.Martin Hogbin (talk) 17:19, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

 Done ```Buster Seven Talk

I agree that this is a good starting point. There is one mistake needing correction: Transocean was the rig operator, not the well operator. Beagel (talk) 20:46, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

 Done ```Buster Seven Talk 05:52, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Versions

Survey

• Martin Hogbin's version Martin Hogbin (talk) 17:27, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
• SlimVirgin's version ```Buster Seven Talk 19:16, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
• SlimVirgin's version Robert McClenon (talk) 19:19, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
• None of the above. The current version is fine, and the three alternatives are not good condensations. They fail to give adequate weight to the so-called Deepwater Horizon Oil Spill. I disagree with us having to choose from three versions. What's the hurry? Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 19:43, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
• None of the above. The current version needs only a bit of tightening to be an excellent summary. If the bold subsections were scrapped, the content could fit into a nice 4-5 paragraph section. The legal sections could be trimmed to one paragraph easily. We might choose to blend some of Slim's work into the final summary, though, as it is excellent. petrarchan47tc 20:55, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
• None of the above Considering that there actually was not strong support for only two paras, six (including Martin who did not specify) with two of them saying "2 or three" and "2 or so" and five not willing to place a limit on the additional space needed for health and environmental aspects, I am not willing to support any of the suggestions. In good conscience I just can not sign my name to a decision that would give the DWH spill roughly half the space allowed for the Prudhoe Bay spill. I recently re-read the study group's final report and the WP consensus guidelines and I'd prefer to drop out rather than feel that I did not do my best to see that the spill was reported with the seriousness that it deserves. Gandydancer (talk) 22:08, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

That is a good point about how the votes were tallied, Gandy. I've left notes for the closing admin, and maybe your comments would be a good addition here. petrarchan47tc 22:59, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

• I support adding the summary I wrote as a first draft to be improved in situ, so long as it isn't extended too much. It is a compromise between the current long section and the one-paragraph version that was replaced in April, and (it is hoped) will put an end to the dispute about this part of the article. The complaint that it would make this subsection shorter than the Prudhoe Bay oil spill section, or the Texas Refinery one, is to make those shorter too, because both have dedicated articles, and the current main article is around 11,700 words long. (I also think the long history section should be moved to its own article and summarized here.)

  I suspect that a lot of readers who click on BP do so to get to other articles, probably mainly Deepwater Horizon oil spill; they click on BP because they've forgotten the name of the spill, or can't be bothered to type it out. The spill article got 87,216 hits last month, and was ranked 3,098 on WP in terms of traffic. This is more hits than BP, which got 72,138 and was ranked 6,804. This suggests to me that people who want a detailed summary of the spill will click ahead, rather than stopping to read the detail in the sub-section here. The readers who don't click ahead are more likely to want the broad brushstrokes.

  The draft I produced gives the basic facts, is based on good sources (it includes news sources without relying heavily on them), and the two sentences about human health are MEDRS-compliant. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 22:50, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

It might be a mistake to take into consideration that Beagle once put up a one-paragraph DHW summary. No one else supported it, ever. I've left comments at your talk page about the assumption that DHW page hits means that people are happy to go there to get their information rather than to have a good, fact-filled summary here. petrarchan47tc 22:59, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

What you are talking about? Beagel (talk) 06:20, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

• Martin Hogbin's version as the first preference but all three versions are acceptable. More detailed explanation of my position:

• All three proposed version are acceptable as starting point.
• The current text in the article is not an option per previous RfD and WP:UNDUE.
• All three proposed drafts needs some addition and/or factual correction, so the support is given to the drafts as a starting points, not as a final text. (changes to SlimVirgin's draft are discussed here)
• Per Jytdog, I am strongly in position that information should be provided in the article which is the main article about the event, that means in the case of DWH this is Deepwater Horizon oil spill and its spin-off articles. To avoid confusion and WP:POVFORK, the summary here should be lead of the Deewater Horizon oil spill article, trimmed to two paragraphs per results of the previous RfC.
• Based on this, my first preference is Martin's text, my second preference is Buster's text, my third preference is SlimVirgin's text. But as I said, I am ready to support any of these drafts versus the current text.
• Restoration of the 14 April version per SlimVirgin makes sense and it may be also a starting point if trimmed, inter alia the Clean Water Act trial subsection is trimmed to one paragraph, and the separate subsections are direct quotes are removed.

Beagel (talk) 06:30, 8 July 2013 (UTC), supplemented Beagel (talk) 12:14, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

• None of the Above - Agree with User:Petrarchan47. These proposals need tightening. If you look at the RfC that concluded on July 3rd, most respondents suggested this thing should be covered in 4-6 lines. NickCT (talk) 13:36, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Clarification - As a couple folks noticed and pointed out, my original opinion didn't make sense (largely b/c I misread Petrarchan47's comment). Let me try again. Two points - 1) I do not dislike any of the proposed versions, but I feel they are too long. I do not feel the proposed versions, as currently written, comply with the sentiment from myself and multiple others in the July 3rd RfC that the section should be 4-6 lines. If the proposed versions were tightened/shortened they'd probably deserve consideration; however, as they are currently written I support none of the above. 2) I completely agree with Petra's sentiment that "The current version needs only a bit of tightening to be an excellent summary.". Further more I agree with her sentiment that the "bold subsections [should be] scrapped,". Hope my position is now clear. Apologies for the confusion. NickCT (talk) 23:11, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

I was referring to the version on the page. petrarchan47tc 02:17, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Nick, I am going to have to ask that your suggestions are thrown out, based on the guidelines which state, Consensus is not determined by counting heads, but neither is it determined by the closer's own views about what is the most appropriate policy. The closer is there to judge the consensus of the community, after discarding irrelevant arguments: those that flatly contradict established policy, those based on personal opinion only, those that are logically fallacious, those that show no understanding of the matter of issue.

From an earlier RfC, you revealed that you do not have a basic understanding of this spill in terms of impact on BP or the environment, nor a basic understanding of the scale of it. You compared the Exxon valdez to this one, saying The two spills are quite comparable. True the BP spill involved about ten times as much oil, but oil dumped in the middle of the gulf is significantly less meaningful than oil dumped off the coast of Alaska. In total the economic impact of Valdez was probably over half of the impact Deepwater created. In terms of the company's stock value, give it 30 years and I'm pretty sure BP will be sitting as pretty as ExxonMobile is. ;-) NickCT (talk) 01:59, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

In actuality, "BP released one Exxon Valdez–sized oil spill every three to four days for the eighty-seven days it took to cap the well" The Nation petrarchan47tc 04:10, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

When I gave you the facts about how much oil made it to the shorelines of 4 states, and continues to, you said Mate, if you think me dumping 100 barrels of oil in the middle the Atlantic is going to be as environmentally harmful as me going to your local protected nature reserve and dumping it there, you've got to check your perspecitive on reality. NickCT (talk) 14:52, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

It does follow that with this ideology, your iVotes would be outliers in the field, and indeed you are one pulling for as little mention as possible. petrarchan47tc 02:39, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Ouch. That's probably probably the sternest rebuke I've got from someone I was trying to agree with. Look, I maintain that in terms of total economic impact, Valdez and DWH were comparable spills, though I completely accept your assertion that in terms of total volume of oil spilled DWH was significantly worse. As I'd pointed out, there a large number of variables which effect a spill's economic impact beyond simple quantity of oil spilled. Anyways, it probably won't help for us to hurl facts surrounding the spill at each other. The bottom line is that folks smarter about oil spills than you or I, have done the Valdez/DWH comparison and come to the conclusion I've stated.^{[citation needed]}

re "indeed you are one pulling for as little mention as possible" - Well thanks for assuming good faith. I am "pulling" for two things. 1) I'm am pulling to avoid WP:RECENTISM, which I think is a large part of why the section is currently so large & 2) I'm pulling to come into compliance with Wikipedia:Article size. Is my main concern that this section be short? You're darn right it is. Am I trying to "coverup"/avoid discussion of DWH. No. DWH absolutely has to be mentioned and emphasized. It's an important and notable part of BP's history. I just think we can mention and emphasize it efficiently in 4-6 lines. Again, if you review the earlier RfC on article length, you'll note that my sentiment on length did not vary significantly from what others were calling for. NickCT (talk) 13:43, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

You have not agreed with me, my statements referred to the text in the article, not the drafts. And I am not rebuking you, this was a note regarding policy and is really meant for consideration by the closing admin. petrarchan47tc 18:49, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Did you read above -

I completely agree with Petra's sentiment that "The current version needs only a bit of tightening to be an excellent summary.".

How can you read that and go onto say "You have not agreed with me". NickCT (talk) 03:37, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

It is getting a bit confusing, in one sentence you are commenting on the drafts (too long), and the next you agree with me. But I was not referring to any of the drafts, I was talking about the 8 paragraph section in the article. I figured you thought I was talking about the drafts? Anyway, Nick, none of my comments are personal. But your misinformation and lack of information about the subject at hand does disqualify your many contributions to these RfCs, unless I'm reading the guidelines wrong. petrarchan47tc 04:05, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Ok. Let me try to state this again. I think there are two possible solutions here - 1) We try to rework the drafts to make them shorter. Then reconsider them. Or 2) We just do what you suggested (i.e. shorten the current text).

My very initial RfC response was actually based on a misreading of what you were saying (which might be the basis for the confusion). But my next comment tried to clarify.

Regardless, you do appear to be misreading the policy, because none of the rationales for discarding seem to apply to me.

You also seem to have ignored the ideas and principles behind WP:Article Size and WP:Recentism that I've pointed to. NickCT (talk) 12:13, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

The closer is there to judge the consensus of the community, after discarding irrelevant arguments, those that show no understanding of the matter of issue. This is a matter for the closing admin, not for us. I have alerted him to this conversation. I expect he is brushing up on the oil spill facts as we speak and reviewing the comments for bogus arguments which should be thrown out. You didn't know the most basic facts about the topic, and even after I showed you the scale (one ExxonValdez every 2-3 days for 83 days), you still called it "ten times the size of Valdez". According to NWF, the ExxonValdez spilled 10.8 million gallons, and BP spilled 172 million. Amazingly, you believed the oil stayed out at sea and didn't affect coastlines or protected habitats. You thought the oil spilled at sea was relatively harmless, showing you aren't aware of the Corexit application to that oil, making it 52 times more toxic. Dolphins to this day are dying at 6 times the pre-spill rate. You mentioned that scientists 'smarter than you and I' have compared the Valdez and BP spills, finding them similar, but did not provide a requested source (I doubt one exists, but you surely must have seen one?). When I informed you the spill has hurt BP by making them 1/3 smaller company, you lightheartedly said "give them 30 years" - but we are here to determine the scale of this in 2013. You apparently have a preconceived notion about the spill and how it should be covered, and is isn't guided by actual DWH spill facts nor is it swayed by them. I was astounded by the result of these RfCs, and figured something went awry. Your prolific contribs to these DWH discussions have most assuredly contributed to the rfc result, a 2 paragraph limitation which makes no sense when the true scale of the spill is considered. (This doesn't mean you aren't a great guy!!) petrarchan47tc 18:45, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

re "even after I showed you the scale (one ExxonValdez every 2-3 days for 83 days), you still called it "ten times the size of Valdez". According to NWF, the ExxonValdez spilled 10.8 million gallons, and BP spilled 172 million." - Wait wait wait. Your numbers put the spill at 15.9 times bigger. You are going to tell me that my saying the spill was 10 times bigger, when (according to one set of numbers) it was 15.9 times bigger means that I have "no understanding of the matter of issue"? Ever heard of approximation?

re " Amazingly, you believed .... Dolphins to this day are dying at 6 times the pre-spill rate." - The great majority of oil didn't reach the coastline. That is true. Some of course did. When I said "relatively harmless" I repeatidly stated I was talking in terms of economic impact. Obviously it's very sad that a dolphin dies, but I'm not sure how consequential that is in terms of financial loss.

re "You mentioned that scientists 'smarter than you and I' ... but did not provide a requested source" - You didn't ask for a source. How about Berkley Labs, a Enviro Sci Tech Aritcle, a NOAA presentation comparing the spills, HowStuff works (not really the best RS, but by a Enviro Sci Grad who explicitly says Valdez was worse),a Time Magazine Aritcle. Shall I go on?

re " but we are here to determine the scale of this in 2013. " - That's exactly contrary to what WP:RECENTISM says.

re "Your prolific contribs to these DWH discussions ... contributed to the rfc result" - Ummmm... Not just me contributing "prolificly". Look at Slim. She's commenting all the time. Is she causing the astounding results?

re " a 2 paragraph limitation which makes no sense when the true scale of the spill is considered" - Well, I maintain that DWH and Valdez are comparable in scale. Obviously this is a "OSE" argument", but I think the DWH should look something like ExxonMobil#Exxon_Valdez_oil_spill. Please remember that the article is currently too long. If you want a longer DWH section, you should probably point to other parts of the article you think can be trimmed.

re "This doesn't mean you aren't a great guy!!" - None of this means you aren't a great gal either. This is probably a good topic for one to get passionate about. But we should be cautious not to let passion infringe on WP:NPOV. NickCT (talk) 17:28, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

• None of the Above This is something of a Hobson's choice. Let's take a breath and start over. On the merits, I agree with Petrarchan47 who said, contrary to the misinterpetation immediately above, that the current version only needs to be tightened. Coretheapple (talk) 13:55, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

re "contrary to the misinterpetation immediately above" - Man.... You are actually reading peoples' arguments? Anyways, I don't really care whether we tighten and adopt one of the new versions or "tighten" the current. Whatever we have, it's just got to be tighter. NickCT (talk) 14:22, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

She favors tightening the current version. If you agree with that, I'd be happy to strike out "misinterpreted." Coretheapple (talk) 14:48, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

No. You don't need to strike. You were right. I did misread. But regardless, having reread, I still think what she's suggesting is OK. But I'm also not against tightening one of the proposed revisions and using the product to replace the current text. NickCT (talk) 15:48, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

• SlimVirgin's version If we already have a consensus that 4-6 lines should be dedicated to this, then a small tightening of the present version doesn't seem possible. Of the three drafts, SlinVirgin's version is clearest. Of course, there is the dedicated article which is the primary representation of this incident on the project and we're only discussing the summary section. As a sidenote, the DH incident is covered in the lead of this article in excessive detail, in my opinion ("11 counts of felony manslaughter"). --Dailycare (talk) 19:26, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
• None of the above. The suggested versions are too short or otherwise unsatisfactory. Deepwater Horizon was a major landmark event and should not be given less attention than other spills/explosions. Binksternet (talk) 14:46, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Note: I'm not sure I'd use other similar sections as a guidepost, like Prudhoe Bay, as they are next on the chopping block. petrarchan47tc 19:04, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

• Martin's version I agree entirely with SlimVirgin's reasoning and (importantly) evidence above, that people don't come to the BP article to read about the DWH spill - they go to the DWH article. When sections grow into full length articles and are forked off, I strongly favor leaving a stub in the main article, strictly based on the lede of the forked article (copy/pasted, even, with refs added where lacking) along with a "see X" hat. If the lede of the forked article changes, the stub in the main article should change. That way readers are not yanked all over and Wikipedia doesn't develop thickets of conflicting-at-worst, and differing-at-best, content in different places. Martin's version is based on the lede of the DWH article. (I would actually favor just copy/pasting the lede of the DWH article here. I note that the lede of the DWH article doesn't reflect its environmental section very well!) I did not vote for SlimVirgin's because it is not based off the lede of the DWH article; and because there is detail in it, that is not even in the DWH article (~7000 dead animals and 700 dead dolphins), and I don't think those raw numbers are helpful. (Does 700 = 80% or 2% of the dolphin population?) In any case, I hope my arguments here make sense, even if folks don't agree with them. Stubs for forks should be copies of the fork's lede, so that wikipedia doesn't grow disorganized and unhelpful to readers. The thing to fight over, is the content and lede of the DWH article. Wuick additional note - I am fine with copy/pasting a lede and editing it down to fit the main article's context and needs. In this case the series of RfCs have called for something shorter than the 4 paragraphs in the DWH lede, so it should be edited down to fit the RfCs. But there should be nothing here that is not in the DWH article. Jytdog (talk) 23:51, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
• SlimVirgin's version. Our articles on disasters don't say that, for example, a certain percentage of NYC residents were killed in the 9/11 attacks, and I think the absolute numbers are meaningful in a way at percentages would not be. And what would the region area or volume be from which to take a percentage? EllenCT (talk) 14:11, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
• Martin's version is the best of the three, though even that one could be more balanced. Slim's version is simply unacceptable, reading like it was ripped from a Greenpeace pamphlet. I don't think, however, that we need to go with simply having the DWH article lede here as this article is about the company. Casting details in a more relevant light would be desirable.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 07:26, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
• Martin's version is by far the best of the three. Buster's version is far too narrow (it's just about assigning blame). Slim's version has a lot of good content in it (which should be viewed as possible additions), but also a lot of vague content-free advocacy-group type sentences. On another note, the posed question is ambiguous because it doesn't say exactly what would get deleted / replaced, so I was unable to compare Martin's to the current version of what would get replaced. (I was asked to comment by the bot) North8000 (talk) 14:13, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
• None of them I was randomly recruited by RFCbot. I would recommend first finding consensus on an outline or if that's too hard, simply listing the most important, basic points to include in a summary. Then the discussion is not clouded by word choices or style issues and it will be much clearer how many lines will be required to cover the material.. Jojalozzo 03:26, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Threaded discussion

It's worth noting that the point of these RfCs is to gain a rolling consensus for a variety of issues, so that progress is made.

Therefore, if RfC (1) results in consensus X, RfC (2) asks: "given consensus X, what do you prefer of the following?" Responding outside that framework – e.g. "but I didn't agree to consensus X" – just means that the dispute goes back and forth with no way forward. It also runs the risk that the closing editor will overlook that kind of response, or won't know how to evaluate it. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 16:39, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Slim. I have added 'Keep current version' as an option. Otherwise, if this RfC resulted in no clear consensus that could be taken as a consensus for the current version. Martin Hogbin (talk) 16:49, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

The previous RfC went against that, so we already have no consensus for the current version. Please don't add anything that's inconsistent with that, otherwise there will have been no point in holding RfC (2). SlimVirgin ^(talk) 16:52, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

What about the April 1st version which was also proposed? ```Buster Seven Talk 16:55, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

See my reply to you in the previous section. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 16:57, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

'Martin Hogbin's version' is not actually my version at all but a shortened version of the lead of the Deepwater Horizon oil spill article. Martin Hogbin (talk) 16:44, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

It's the version you proposed. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 16:49, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, of course it is but it was not my wording but an attempt at generating a neutral version by using material that I had no influence over. I think responders should be made aware of its origin, therefore there should be a note somewhere indicating this. Martin Hogbin (talk) 17:34, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Martin, I apologize for responding to your comment and for moving it here. I didn't realize it was your survey response. I thought you were just pointing out where it had come from, and had posted it in the wrong place. Sorry about that. Please feel free to move it back, if you want to, with or without my reply as you see fit. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 17:37, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

I have a serious concern as to whether the BP Oil Spill can be compressed into two paragraphs without giving the subject lack of proper weight. Whatever local consensus may say on the subject, it does not override core policies such as WP:NPOV. I realize that this is a subjective issue, but feel I had to throw that out for discussion. That is the central issue here. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 21:44, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Is it entirely subjective? I don't see it that way. We can look to some facts about the impact this spill has had on the company, size and stock-wise, as well as its impact on the environment, and the amount of "first ever" and "largest ever" fines, amount spilled, chemicals used, etc. for a more objective take, no? petrarchan47tc 22:01, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

It would seem. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 23:20, 7 July 2013 (UTC)