Talk:Bengalis/Archive 5

3rd Opinion

Response to third opinion request (Disagreement on Census data):

I am responding to a third opinion request for this page. I have made no previous edits on Bengalis and have no known association with the editors involved in this discussion. The third opinion process is informal and I have no special powers or authority apart from being a fresh pair of eyes.

Hi. So I took a look at it and I'd like to warn that that using census data might be WP: OR. To avoid that I suggest looking at studies. I saw one of the sources is from the PEW research centre. However I would also like each of you please elaborate in a very short paragraph with each of your views regarding the source. Chefs-kiss (talk) 15:52, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

I strongly prefer the usage of data from government agencies or reputed third parties as opposed to quotations from a single book or newspaper. While a single reference did state that there are 200 million Bengali Muslims, this was from an obscure book from 2013, and the quotation was unverifiable via Google Books or Open Library. If data can be taken from any source, as would be demonstrated with the use of the 200 million figure, Bangladeshi Hindus could also number at least 15% of Bangladesh and 25 million people[1][2]. Using unbiased census data, there are 60 million Hindus in West Bengal, 3 million in Tripura, 10 million in the rest of India, and at least 13 million in Bangladesh, totaling 86 million. Note that the first figure is from 2011, while the latter from 2022. It is plausible that this figure is about 90 million now, excluding diaspora. As for Muslims, the 2022 census of Bangladesh counted 150 million, while there are about 27 million in India in 2011. Thus, an approximate ratio of 2-1 seems the most reasonable to include in the article instead of relying on a single quotation of 200 million for Muslims and an unexplained figure of 80 million of Hindus. Harshalrach (talk) 23:17, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

If your to boost the hindu population to 85 to 90 million why not the muslim bengali population in west bengal and assam which have a higher tfr? Shinakho (talk) 03:03, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

This is a summary of my main point. I'm not in the mood to spend another 2 hours to reiterate what I have already said. I also look forward to your justification for increasing the Muslim population to 200 million. Harshalrach (talk) 05:26, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Even if you ignore the 200 million claim The population of muslims is around 187 to 188 million if your using while you ignore the growth of muslims bengalis in assam and west bengal you wanted to increase the population of bengali hindus to more then 80 million when the tfr rates are not even high for bengali hindus and make 10 million more. Shinakho (talk) 21:18, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

I'd also like to add that using the book which states that there are 200 million Muslims would be a violation of WP:SELFPUB Harshalrach (talk) 17:38, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

@Shinakho: can you please state your reasons as to why you oppose this the source of the census and what you find favourable about your source? Chefs-kiss (talk) 17:34, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

The muslim population according to the latest 2022 census in bangladesh was 150 million where muslim while in india the muslim bengali population in 2011 census was 33 million including assam and west bengal 10 million miya or muslim bengalis in assam and 24 million muslim bengalis in west bengal and 3 million bengalis in pakistan makes the muslim population around 187 to 188 million bengali muslim.

While the bengali hindu population is overall only 80 million if you check here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengali_Hindus yet his pushing it to 85 to 90 million because the india is still stuck at the 2011 census yet his not pushing the muslim population of bengalis in assam and west bengal in that case I can push the muslim population to 200 million because the TFR rates of muslims in assam and west bengal are way higher then the bengali hindus plus another source says in 2013 the bengali muslim population was at 200 million. Shinakho (talk) 21:15, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

@Harshalrach and Shinakho: To be clear, when you two speak loosely of 'the 200 million book', you are both referring to: Khan, Mojlum (2013). The Muslim Heritage of Bengal: The Lives, Thoughts and Achievements of Great Muslim Scholars, Writers and Reformers of Bangladesh and West Bengal. Kube Publishing Ltd. p. 2. ISBN 978-1-84774-052-6. Bengali-speaking Muslims as a group consists of around 200 million people. Right?

@Harshalrach: Can you explain how this book violates WP:SELFPUB? You have leveled several other criticisms at it: that it is "obscure", "from 2013", and is "unverifiable via Google Books or Open Library". First, Kube Publishing is a relatively small publisher, but size is not an indicator of reliability. They claim to publish academic works (and others). The book has been cited 29 times, according to Google Scholar, and is held by many major research university libraries (255 Worldcat libraries), strongly suggesting that the academic community considers it a reliable source. Wikipedia prefers recent scholarship. The Bangladesh Bureau of Statistics has only this year started releasing information in English from its most recent population census, so we should not expect to see books citing it yet. A source from 2013, after the 2011 Bangladesh and India censuses, is based on as recent demography scholarship as we can expect in a book at the moment. Lastly, I have no trouble verifying the quote through Google Books preview. Access varies according to geography and other factors, so you may not be able to do so. There is no requirement, however, that a source needs to be accessible through Google Books or any other online mechanism in order to be considered reliable.

Better arguments against the book are as follows. (1) His statement about 200 million is not a result of his research, but a passing aside in the introduction where he explains why he wrote the book. He cites no sources for it. For some people, 180 million is "around 200 million". Perhaps it was for him as well; we don't know because he offers no explanation. The book may be reliable for its core content, biographical information about the 42 individuals he selected, but less reliable, and certainly not authoritative for demographic information. (2) Exceptional claims require exceptional sources. If 200 million is the scholarly consensus, then it should be easy to cite a couple of other academic books, ideally in the field of demography, that confirm the number. If that can't be done, then a single book, even if reliable, is insufficient. --Worldbruce (talk) 23:23, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

I understand that I may have made a mistake on verifying the quotation - I saw in this article's history that some tampered with the number in the quote a couple times and wanted to verify its true content with Google Books but was unable to do so. My main issue with the book is:

It focuses on the Islamic heritage of Bengal, and the publisher also claims to emphasize books dealing with Islam. While such a book, as you mentioned, would be useful for research on Indo-Islamic culture, it would not be as trustworthy for a topic outside this scope, such as demography. This is especially true when national censuses do not support the figure of 200 million. I also stated earlier that it appears to be the only book stating this, and as you said this claim would require multiple sources to support it.

I had not considered but do agree with your first point that 200 million could be an approximation, and was not aware of its context as a passing note in the prologue as I was unable to view it in Google Books. In this case, it would be safer to go with the more precise values given by the respective national censuses, which again approximate a 2-1 ratio between Muslims and Hindus. Harshalrach (talk) 01:06, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

@Harshalrach and Shinakho:Then may I consider this case closed? The consensus being that given the source is an approximation we can use the census data? Chefs-kiss (talk) 18:29, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

I would say so. Thank you for your help. Harshalrach (talk) 00:26, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

As long the bengali hindu population doesnt ve more then 80 million the muslim bengali population is around 188 million or 190 million Shinakho (talk) 00:35, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Why is that? There is ample evidence that there are about 90 million Bengali Hindus.

About 60 million in West Bengal, 5 million in Assam, 3 million in Tripura, and about 7 million elsewhere in India

There are also at least 13 million in Bangladesh

This reaches nearly 90 million, and most of this data is from 2011 as well. I think rather than getting into the minutiae of a few million in numbers it is better that we just give percentages, and again, this approximates a 2-1 ratio of Muslims to Hindus. There will always be some who take objection to the numbers in any demographics page, and rather than hashing out whether there are a few million more or less of some group, for this article it is far better that the consensus be on the ratio of 2-1, especially when the data so closely approximates that anyways. Harshalrach (talk) 04:47, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

@Shinakho. Giving them as percentage seems fine to me? Since this is such a disputed discussion. Chefs-kiss (talk) 16:11, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

My issue is harshal inflates the hindus population but ignores the muslim population in india among muslim benngalis. Shinakho (talk) 22:03, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Again, please think constructively for solution and do not discard them just because I propose them. Again, if I did not want to think constructively for solutions, I would ask you to give me accurate sources for your figure for Muslims, but I want to resolve this discussion as soon as possible so I hope you agree to the simplest solution possible, which is simply combining census results for Bangladesh, West Bengal, and Tripura and giving a percentage. Harshalrach (talk) 23:20, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

I would say that if we do choose this option, we should make it as simple as possible: Simply combine the results of the 2011 Census for Bangladesh with those of the two Bengali-speaking states of India, West Bengal and Tripura in the same year. I say 2011 so we do not have to adjust for population growth in one portion and not another. Adding these results from the same year will give us an accurate percentage, and since this is all we are looking for, should be sufficient for this purpose. Harshalrach (talk) 17:16, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Where are these figures coming from? West bengal only has 55 million hindu bengali population in the 20011 census your forgetting that a lot of hindus who arent ethnic bengali live in west bengal here is a source that shows that according to the 2011 census on 55 million are hindu bengali:

Hindus add up to about 70 million in Bengal’s 100 million population, of which around 55 million are Bengalis. Bengali Hindus cannot be treated as a monolithic entity in elections as class, caste and geographical differences determine political affiliations. “Bengali Hindus have never been a homogeneous group. But the past decade has seen politics and religion cross paths, transcending caste and class barriers. Worse still, identity politics is on the rise among caste groups, their ambitions stoked by political outfits,” says Chakrabarti.

https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/nation/story/20201123-the-great-hindu-vote-trick-1740691-2020-11-13

While tripura had 2 million hindu bengalis not 3 million:

https://www.dailypioneer.com/2017/sunday-edition/bjp-eyes-22-m-bengali-hindus-in-tripura-quest.html

Where are you getting the 7 million figure from there is no proof where the 7 million figure comes from?

Hindus make 80 million while muslims make 188 million Shinakho (talk) 22:11, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

7 million comes from the number of Bengalis living outside of West Bengal, Tripura and Assam, almost all of which are Hindus. See the 2011 census if you want a source

If you're really getting into the minutiae of 2 million vs 3 million for Tripura, we can never resolve this discussion.

And, if you really want to subtract based on ethnicity, many Hindi speakers in West Bengal are in fact ethnically Bengalis who no longer speak the language. Additionally, there are millions of non-Bengali Muslims in Bangladesh, namely Rohingya and Biharis, and almost 2 million Urdu and Surjapuri speaking Muslims in West Bengal.

If we wanted this discussion to keep going on and on, I could ask you to cite figures for 188 million Muslims. But I do not and I'm hoping you don't either.

Again, I highly encourage you to think constructively on how we can resolve this debate instead of continuously attacking solutions only because I propose them. Let's make this as simple as possible and eliminate discrepancy by year and just combine the 2011 census results for West Bengal, Tripura, and Bangladesh, and express them by a percentage instead of number. Harshalrach (talk) 23:18, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

I agree with this solution. I recommend that unless there is a proposed alternative this is used. Wikipedia functions on consensus and compromise. So I encourage that you both work towards an agreement. Chefs-kiss (talk) 16:05, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

Nothing suggest in the 2011 census that 7 million bengalis live outise of west bengal, assam and tripura other wise name the state abd give a source fine lets make west bengal 60 million bengali hindus still doesnt make 90 million

The muslim population according to the latest 2022 census in bangladesh was 150 million where muslim while in india the muslim bengali population in 2011 census was 33 million including assam and west bengal 10 million miya or muslim bengalis in assam and 24 million muslim bengalis in west bengal and 3 million bengalis in pakistan makes the muslim population around 187 to 188 million bengali muslim. Shinakho (talk) 22:36, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

How about a third method is used. Would it be acceptable to perhaps look for both census and book data that coincide? Regardless of the current sources? But I also ask Shinakho to please look for consensus, otherwise I don't think 3O is the best since it is not a binding decision. Chefs-kiss (talk) 14:02, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

There are not 10 million Bengali Muslims in Assam. There are 10 million Muslims there total but as I have said before, many are ethnically Assamese. If you wish to count them all as Bengalis, why not eliminate Islam from the list of religions practiced by ethnic Assamese? Obviously, this is wrong.

As for my figure of 7 million Bengalis outside West Bengal, Assam, and Tripura, the 2011 Census shows that 79 million Bengalis live in West Bengal, 2 million in Tripura, and 9 million in Assam making up 90 million out of a total of 97 million. Again, this is from the 2011 census so keep that in mind.

My figures are properly sourced, but again I think this is taking up far too much time. WP:CALC states that editors should not compare statistics with different methodologies. I think that census year would fall under that, so I think it's best to combine only the 2011 census results for West Bengal, Bangladesh, and Tripura and give a percentage to prevent hours of fighting over a few million people.

West Bengal:

64,385,546 Hindus

24,654,825 Muslims

2,307,365 Others

Bangladesh:

135,394,217 Muslims

12,730,651 Hindus

1,647,496 Others

Tripura:

3,063,903 Hindus

316,042 Muslims

293,972 Others

This totals to 32.75% for Hindus, and 65.51% for Muslims, with the rest being other religions. I suggest we put only these percentages for the religion section. Harshalrach (talk) 23:41, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

I'm going to close this discussion on lack of consensus. I recommend you to go to the WP: DRN , which is a method to resolve content disputes. Chefs-kiss (talk) 17:01, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

@Shinakho Let's try one more time to resolve this before we have to go through the next steps in the dispute resolution process. So, could you explain why you are against the idea of combining the 2011 census results for West Bengal, Bangladesh, and Tripura, and explain what your proposal is? Harshalrach (talk) 22:32, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

This will be my last comment and done with the purpose to summarize the case for the people who might resolve this in the future. The disagreement and each party opinion is stated at the beginning. There was then the suggestion that since the book is an approximation census data could be used. This was then rejected by Shinakho. The issue then preceded to discuss numbers and census data, with no attempts of compromise. This is very much an issue with content and a third opinion really is not useful since there is no attempt at consensus nor agreement is being attempted. Also there was a WP:3RR at the beginning of this issue.

My personal opinion: I think that there should be an attempt to find more tertiary sources, maybe academic studies on population. Not necessarily a census, maybe a study that utilizes various censuses so we can get a more objective view. However this does not seem like a solution that parties want to reach, that is all right but I do think that it might be an in between. Chefs-kiss (talk) 17:05, 20 March 2023 (UTC)