Talk:Benjamin Sheares/GA1

High Level Comments

• I know almost nothing about C-section but the article led me to believe that the lower C-section is not the main procedure. Only when I clicked the blue text did I see that it is the main procedure. This is important enough that a little more background on what the procedure is and why it is notable versus whatever the standard of care was at the time is warranted. Czarking0 (talk) 23:55, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
  • Added more to explain the previous method used.

• I think the way this is presented in the led is still not clear. I think these two sentences need to be reworked. Regarded as "the father of obstetrics and gynaecology in Singapore", Sheares was known for pioneering the lower Caesarian section in Singapore and creating an artificial vagina. The lower Caesarian section has since become the standard procedure in Singapore and his technique to create an artificial vagina has been dubbed the Sheares operation. First, you are still using pioneering here. Second, the lower C-section work is in Singapore but the creating an artificial vagina is a worldwide feat right? This is not clear here. Third, it is not clear that these are two separate things. I originally understood this to mean that this was a special C-section operation where the doctor creates an artificial vagina. Obviously my medical knowledge is quite lacking, but if I had this misunderstanding others will too.

• I have rewritten the lead to better separate the two methods. Can you check if it makes more sense?

• they also did not [sic] understand why is this sic?
  • Removed sic.
• Following the death of incumbent president Yusof Ishak, six people – Yeoh Ghim Seng, Othman Wok, Wee Chong Jin, Ismail bin Abdul, Punch Coomaraswamy, and A. P. Rajah – were considered to be the most likely candidates for the role in November 1970.[21] It was ultimately announced in December that Sheares would succeed Yusof and he became the second president of Singapore on 2 January 1971 after he was sworn in, following an unanimous agreement by Parliament. More background on how the government functioned to select a leader is warranted.
  • Added more background on Sheares' election.
• There is little coverage on notable things he did as president
  • Back then the president was more of a ceremonial role so there weren't many important things he did, but I'll add more things he did.
• lower Caesarian section, which he pioneered. Pioneered is not really the right term here. Would it be better to say that he brought (or standardized, or popularized) the practice in Singapore?
  • Changed to standardised.

Presidency

• The fact that the president was ceremonial at the time is notable detail. You should make that explicit and have reliable sources. I think a news search during that timeline for what ceremonies he lead is warranted. Other secondary commentary on what he did as president if it exists would also be notable.
  • Added more ceremonies and hosting he did such as the 1971 Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting.
• Elizabeth II is a featured article for a ceremonial head of a country. I would look to that as an example for what should be covered. I see that all the major historical events during her reign have a section. Clearly, Sheares does not have as much press but for assessing coverage of this article I will consult a timeline of Sinapore's history during his presidency and I expect that any major events are addressed in the article. Of course if there really is nothing notable he said or did during that time then it cannot be covered.
  • I tried to add more historical events that happened in Singapore during his presidency, but I didn't find many notable things to add. I have still added more nonetheless.
• Is this fact from Mimi Wong notable? However, on the advice of the Cabinet, then-President Benjamin Sheares declined to grant Wong clemency and dismissed her petition on 23 July 1973, hereby finalizing Wong's death sentence. Czarking0 (talk) 18:32, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

  Or a similar event^[1] Czarking0 (talk) 18:59, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

   Not done I don't think that her clemency being rejected is notable, many other people (Chow Kim Hoong and the Gold Bars triple murders) also ask for clemency as a last resort before their execution.

• I saw that Singapore's abortion law was passed in 1970. Given Sheares connection to OBGYN I would except he had some statement on this but I could not find it. Czarking0 (talk) 18:34, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

   Done I also couldn't find anything he said regarding the legalisation of abortion, but it was before his presidency in 1971, so I doubt there is anything he said about it. The only thing I could find regarding abortion was a statement that Sheares gave in 1959. I have added that.

• I see the trade union movement was growing during Sheares' presidency. This may be notable to include.^{[2]: 164 [3]} Czarking0 (talk) 18:39, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

   Not done There isn't any evidence to support that the trade union movement growing was a direct result of his presidency.

  I do not think "direct result" is the inclusion test that should be used. Covid-19 was not a direct result of anyone's presidency but I am sure all the GA for presidents during the pandemic mention it. I am not saying you need to mention the growth of trade unions but the NTUC and growth of trade unions was likely notable to Spore history during his presidency so it is something to consider.

  I have added a mention in his presidency. Actuall7 (talk) 02:05, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

• Potentially notable speech? ^[4]Czarking0 (talk) 18:42, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

   Done The 1972 speech was already added in the presidency section when he opened the third Parliament. I have added the 1973 speech.

• Could this be a notable event? ^[5]Czarking0 (talk) 18:44, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

   Done Added.

• I think the section on his presidency should mention how economically successful Spore was during his presidency. ^[2]: 369Czarking0 (talk) 18:53, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

  Here is a connection to Sheares.^[6] Czarking0 (talk) 19:06, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

   Done There were a few existing sources already commenting on Singapore's economy in the article, but I have added the one given here.

• His meeting with USA vice president Agnew may be notable? You would need an additional source.^[7]Czarking0 (talk) 19:14, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

   Done I have added Agnew's 1973 visit, although it does seem like he talks more with Lee Kuan Yew and S. Rajaratnam instead of Sheares. I have also used more local sources.

• You mention that he opened the third parliament. I think it is also notable to mention his ceremonial role in dissolving the second parliament. You also mention the speech about the next 5 year plan. I think you should mention the expiration of the previous PAP mandate and how the political vision evolved between the two. I would also expect that there was a similar process in 1977 which is worth mentioning.^[8]Czarking0 (talk) 19:14, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

   Done Sheares' five year plan was already stated in the article. I have expanded on it along with adding the dissolution of the third parliament.

• Maybe his role in this award is notable?^[9]Czarking0 (talk) 19:36, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

   Done Added.

• Probably one of the most significant events in Spore in 1971 was the withdrawal of the British military. This makes me think Sheares visits to the military bases that year are notable.^[10]Czarking0 (talk) 19:38, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

   Not done Sheares frequently visited multiple places over his presidency, I don't see why his visit to British military bases would be more important just because British forces were leaving Singapore that year. Unless he was responsible for the withdrawal of the British, I don't think that its notable enough to add.

  I have a similar objection to your view here with my comment about "direct result" above. The withdrawal of the British Military in 1971 is the most significant economic and political event in Spore in 1971. I have multiple sources for this. Relations with the British are one of the most important political relationships Spore has during this period. Wikipedia has existing notability guidelines so you can't really say "Unless he was responsible for the withdrawal of the British, I don't think that its notable enough to add." As that is not the guideline. However, I think you could potentially come to the same conclusion with the existing notability guidelines WP:GNG being relevant here. I urge you to reconsider; however, I do not trust your judgement here and will not make the GA determination based on whether you agree with me.

  I could not find much about his visits to British bases in local newspapers but I have added information about what he did when the British announced their withdrawal. Actuall7 (talk) 02:05, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

• I see Newspaper and Printing Presses Act is marked as passed by Sheares. This might just be irrelevant as I cannot find much information connecting Sheares to it. T. S. Sinnathuray also says he was appointed by Sheares. Is this just wrong or are these ceremonial appointments? Czarking0 (talk) 19:59, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

   Not done The president regularly appoints people to posts so I wouldn't find it notable enough to mention Sinnathuray even though it is mentioned by news sources: . Regarding the Newspaper and Printing Presses Act, the president routinely passes acts so it wouldn't be that notable to add, but I have added a few instances where he passed some acts.

  I see that you and I are not seeing eye-to-eye on notability. I will note that I will make the determination of the GAR on WP:GNG. If you come to the same conclusion for this case using wikipedia's notability guidelines then I will agree with you; however, in this case I think the guideline points in the opposite direction. To be precise, just because a president routinely does something does not mean it is not notable. John Adams has multiple mentions of appointments and passing of bills. Obviously, the early presidents of Spore do not have the same veto powers so maybe there is an argument to be made that it is not notable. However, that should be determined by the sources not by you or I. Czarking0 (talk) 00:29, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

  I could not find a lot of information about Sheares passing the Act but I have added some appointments he performed during his presidency. Actuall7 (talk) 02:05, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

• Ok I have done a lot of digging and I think after you address these points coverage will be good. I have been paying attention to other components of the GAC while working on this. I will put up a more structured review once you have addressed my points here. Overall you have done a great job. Czarking0 (talk) 20:18, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks for the thorough review so far. Actuall7 (talk) 03:47, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

  Ok, at this point I do not think any reasonable person could object to the coverage. I'll finish out the other aspects of the review. Czarking0 (talk) 18:28, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Election

• I consider his election a separate matter from his actual presidency. Was he part of a political party and did he write any notable works prior to election? Those are standard matters to cover for a politician.
  • Moved his elections to their own section. The role of the president in Singapore is non-partisan, so Sheares didn't have a political career before becoming president.
• You mention other likely nominees but then do not say anything about them or why they were not selected. If they are notable enough to mention (which I presume they are), then they are notable enough to explain why Sheares was preferred over them.
  • Added information on why Sheares was chosen at the first election over the other nominees. The following elections, he was re-elected unopposed so there weren't other nominees at them.
• I think this is sufficient now  DoneCzarking0 (talk) 19:16, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Table

More information Rate, Attribute ...

Rate	Attribute	Review Comment
1. Well-written:
	1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct.	looks good
	1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.	and was the longest-serving president at 10 years – a record surpassed in January 2010 by S. R. Nathan who served 12 years I think you should cut this.  Done Removed from lead. Sheares initially wanted to retire after finishing his second term as he felt that he did not have the energy for another term, but then-Prime Minister Lee Kuan Yew persuaded him to stay and Sheares took on his third term. I think you should cut this.  Done Removed from lead.
2. Verifiable with no original research:
	2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline.	looks good
	2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose).	Regarded as "the father of obstetrics and gynaecology in Singapore", contributions by Sheares to obstetrics include the lower Caesarian section, which he standardised, that resulted in a lower mortality and morbidity rate in pregnant women than the upper Caesarian section I searched FN8 for "father" and it did not come up. I think you need several independent sources to claim he is regarded as the father. The phrase is referenced from FN10: , which is used to cite that whole paragraph. I have put another FN10 at the start of the phrase. Reviewing this a bit further. One source is usually not enough for statements like Regarded as "the father of. I suggest a second source is added for this or we may need to consider amending the text. Furthermore, Sheares knew that the lower Caesarian section would be more effective but was unable to perform it under the previous Professor, J. S. English. I think there is some missing, and notable, detail here that the permissions changed due to the Japanese occupationCzarking0 (talk) 05:34, 18 December 2024 (UTC) Added another source to verify the father claim. The detail on why Sheares was able to perform the lower Caesarian is mentioned in the first line of the next paragraph, he became the head of department of Obstetrics and Gynaecology in the 1940s which gave him the authority to perform it. Actuall7 (talk) 07:22, 18 December 2024 (UTC) But FN10 states "the Japanese occupation finally gave [Sheares] a free hand to practice what he believed was right. He was the first man to perform the lower segement Caesarian section in Sigapore." Are you saying the Japanese occupation led to his promotion to head of the department? I think there is some missing detail for my understanding. I want to ensure that WP:NPOV is followed here. The sentence in the next paragraph is referenced with FN5, not FN10. I have still reworded it to include the Japanese occupation leading to his promotion. Actuall7 (talk) 02:12, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
	2c. it contains no original research.
	2d. it contains no copyright violations or plagiarism.	discussed at top
3. Broad in its coverage:
	3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic.	lots of discussion above
	3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).	looks good
	4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.	I read a lot of sources during this review as evidenced by all the links I put up in addition to reading some of the sources the author provided. I did not see anything that indicated there was a significant unrepresented POV. Maybe mentioning the desire among the ethic-Chinese population to have an ethinic-Chinese president is notable, but I think the authors' addressing of the establishments desire for a minority ethinic president is sufficent coverage on this point.
	5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.	looks good
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
	6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content.	looks good
	6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.	looks good
	7. Overall assessment.	just address that last comments about sourcing of regarded as father of Everything is well done, good job. You could consider submitting this for WP:DYK

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