Talk:Calgary/Archive 3

Some items removed from Economy section (some of this stuff is now summarized though, so please check current article before re-adding anything here): It is common to see signing bonuses for workers in the service industry as well as starting wages for grade school students up to $15 per hour at local fast food eateries.^[1][2] Downtown hotels have had to shut down floors due to a lack of staff to clean all the rooms. The area's housing boom, combined with large road construction projects and competition from oil fields with high wages to the north, has created a strain on the labour force. In 1996, Canadian Pacific Railway moved its head office from Montreal to Calgary, and, with 3,100 employees, is among the city's top employers.^{[citation needed]} Imperial Oil moved its headquarters from Toronto in 2005 in order to take advantage of Alberta's favourable corporate taxes and to be closer to its oil operations.^[3] This involved the relocation of approximately 400 families. SunKing2 (talk) 19:48, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

the article is vastly undersourced. several sections are entirely without attribution. some sections have little attribution with entire paragraphs within those sections having no attribution. i have tagged article as "refimprove" twice and been reverted. the article fails WP:VERIFY. is it WP:ORIGINAL RESEARCH? --96.232.126.111 (talk) 20:21, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Not quite. This article has a decent amount of sources, 114 to be exact. In fact, most of the prose is verified. If you see anything that needs to be validated simply apply the {{cn}} tag or apply the {{unreferenced section}} tag to sections that lack sources. 08OceanBeach^S.D. 20:34, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

114 citations or 11,400 citations. when entire paragraphs (and some entire sections) are without attribution, there is a deficiency in citations. --96.232.126.111 (talk) 20:47, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia doesn't require every paragraph to have citations, only facts that are likely to be challenged. -DJSasso (talk) 03:11, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Can someone explain why a citation is needed for this, and what kind of citation would be helpful. Isn't it sufficient to state that Calgary has the nearest commercial airport to Banff? Country Wife (talk) 18:57, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

See "lack of attribution for article" above. 117Avenue (talk) 03:22, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, that explains why there are many "needs citation" notes (and I do agree that more citations are needed throughout this article), but this particular point seems (dare I say it?) self-evident. Sorry if I'm being thick, but are statistics called for? Geographical information? Or will a slogan from Tourism Calgary ("Gateway to the Rockies") be sufficient?Country Wife (talk) 04:11, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Reference added, although I question the sentence's relevance to the "First settlement" section overall. It, and maybe the whole paragraph, might be more appropriate under the "Attractions" section. Hwy43 (talk) 04:22, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Its funny cause its true. I was at Denver International and flying home. I saw the sign said Calgary/Banff for my flight. Trfs (talk) 03:46, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

The Mull Museum website (http://www.mullmuseum.org.uk/) has nothing on it now about the origin and meaning of "Calgary". There are widely varying explanations: Wikipedia's article on Calgary, Mull says "Cala ghearraidh, meaning Beach of the meadow (pasture)" but without attribution. http://www.rampantscotland.com/placenames/placename_calgary.htm provides a vague book citation which says it is from "'caladh' and 'garaidh' ('the haven by the dyke') or alternatively from the Old Scandinavian personal name 'Kali' and 'geiri', suggesting 'Kali's triangular plot of land". NWMP officer Col. James McLeod suggested the fort be named "Calgary" (after the place on the Isle of Mull where he had relatives), and a letter sent back to Ottawa and signed by Maj. A. G. Irvine stated that Calgary meant "clear running water" (Calgary: A Not Too Solemn Look at Calgary's First 100 Years, by Bob Shiels, published by the Calgary Herald, 1974, p. 22). However, Irvine apparently didn't understand Scottish Gaelic very well. Shiels goes on to note that "the word seems to break down into 'cala' (a harbour) and 'araigh' (arable pasture land). Go back even further and there's a Norse version describing 'an enclosure for calves'"(ibid, p.23). Finally, we have this webpage (http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/gaidhlig/aite/Canada/calgary.html) which claims Calgary's Glenbow Museum as its source for the statement "The original name in Gaelic was *Cala-ghearridh* [sic], with the first part *Cala*, meaning 'harbour' or 'bay', and the second part, *ghearridh* [sic], meaning 'preserved piece of pasture', 'enclosed pasture', or 'farm'. Therefore, a translation of 'Calgary' would be 'preserved pasture at the harbour', or 'bay farm'." This would be great except that I cannot find anything on the Glenbow Museum's own website (http://www.glenbow.org) about this. I think that at the moment, the actual meaning is so muddied that the article should just stick to stating that Calgary, Canada is named after the Calgary on the Isle of Mull in Scotland. Feedback, please? Country Wife (talk) 00:16, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

No that sounds correct, I know that there is a mural at city hall depicting this fact so we can take it without salt and accept it for what it is. A fact. --Klopsikon (talk) 06:44, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

This article originally had the "clear running water" meaning for the name. But this was so obviously incorrect, that I had a look for the true meaning and found the Gaelic-based one. There is a slight chance that the Norse one is correct. However anyone who has visited Calgary in Mull will agree that the Gaelic is perfectly descriptive of the location: It is a beach by a meadow. But "Cala(dh)" does not mean just any beach, it means a beach of hard-packed gently sloping sand of the type perfectly suited to landing small boats (hence the "harbour" or "haven" translations). Likewise the "gar(r)adh" is a pasture surrounded by a low wall (or dyke). The minor spelling variations are due to Gaelic case endings and lenition and don't actually have any bearing on the identity of the underlying words. In short the English translations may be muddied but the Gaelic isn't. Other English translations are possible. Calgary could be translated as "Garden Cove" for instance but all these alternative translations depend upon which aspects of the original Gaelic you want to emphasise and which you don't and they all circle round the central meaning. The best translation is probably that provided by a bilingual Gaelic/English speaker. So I'd agree that the mural at Calgary city hall has it right. -- Derek Ross | Talk 21:06, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

There are two items in the First Settlement section that are problematic:

"Calgary International Airport is a staging point for people destined for the park.[11]" right out of nowhere which has no relevance on the 'first settlement' of Calgary.

"When the Canadian Pacific Railway reached the area in 1883, and a rail station was constructed, Calgary began to grow into an important commercial and agricultural centre. The Canadian Pacific Railway headquarters are still located in Calgary to this day." The part "The Canadian Pacific Railway headquarters are still located in Calgary to this day." makes no sense, as the CPR only moved to Calgary 15 years ago.

I'd recommend deleting both. I also should have logged in, oops.159.18.125.5 (talk) 19:40, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Regarding the first item, I've made the same observation before. I've moved that content to the more appropriate Transportation section and deleted the balance of the paragraph as the history of Banff National Park has no relevence to the first settlement of Calgary. As mentioned previously, it would be much more appropriate in the Attractions section. I'll look at reintroducing it there when I have a little more time.

Regarding the second item, relocation of the HQ about 15 years ago sounds right, but do you have a reference to confirm this? If so, I suggest the second sentence be revised accordingly with a proper citation. Hwy43 (talk) 00:00, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

I found this sentence in the Climate secion; "The Town of High River (south of Calgary) receives on average 14–15 cm less snow a year than at the Calgary Airport in North-East Calgary (based on 1971–2000 Environment Canada averages), and less than the Toronto area." It was unreferenced but an easy one to reference. However, when I checked the references for the airport and High River it turns out that High River gets 42 cm more snow a year than Calgary Airport. Now does anybody know what the sentence was originally trying to say about the snow difference between the two and which was being referred to as having less than the Toronto area? CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 06:48, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

I think the first question is "why is that important?" It is an arbitrary comparison that doesn't tell the reader anything of value. Why High River, and not Banff or Lethbridge or Red Deer? Why Toronto and not Winnipeg or St. Johns or Vancouver? Resolute 01:07, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. Hwy43 (talk) 04:24, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Based on the previous sentence "However, snowfall (and temperatures) can vary considerably throughout the Calgary region – mostly due to the elevation changes, and proximity to the mountains." I think they were trying to show how different parts of the region get different amounts of snow. But that's over a 37 km difference and the comparison to Toronto is odd as that is 4-5 cm difference. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 06:38, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Based on the 1981-2010 numbers, is Calgary's climate now officially Dwb? Considering the driest winter month (Jan/Feb) has at most 10% of the wettest summer month (June). Any Koppen experts feel free to chime in.68.149.168.161 (talk) 18:16, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

I would consider it a borderline case (Dfb/Dwb) and I would lean more to a Dfb scenario because the old 1971-2000 and 1961-1990 data has shown that Calgary's climate is dfb since the precipitation in the driest winter month Jan/Feb has more than 10% of the wettest summer month. Most of the increase in June precipitation has occurred in the last 10 years. You are correct and I forgot to realize that when I changed it to the most recent data. But using sources to indicate its climate classification is better than just looking at the climate data and determining its climate classification scheme and I would prefer to discuss it before making any changes. Ssbbplayer (talk) 03:42, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Hi Editors/Everyone:

I keep adding to the webpage but I'm rejected for lack of scholarly sources. I'd like to post my suggestions for change to this page here. Feel free to add them to the webpage (and hopefully they are not deleted on this page as well).

Particularly, I thought I could add:

There has also been increased camera surveillance throughout the city, making some worry that police is going to far in keeping the city safe. It's worth noting that increased camera surveillance has not decreased crime in any way and makes people feel they are being treated with suspicion.

Surveillance of neighbourhoods by neighbourhood watch groups and vehicles has also intensified throughout the city. Yet as with camera surveillance, crime is pervasive, largely because crime does not occur in ways typically imagined by most people (blatantly in street-corners and alley-ways). Not only is increased surveillance by patrols unnecessary, then, this creates an atmosphere of distrust and paranoia and is bothersome for those not involved in patrolling. Also problematic is the potential for abuse to ordinary people by granting policing powers to patrolling citizens, since surveillance groups are not accountable to any procedure or protocol as are paid officers.

Some also feel that though there are procedures in place for cases involving abuse by Calgary Police, de facto it is almost impossible to see through a complaint against an officer. Police, some feel, are additionally unresponsive to some serious crimes, despite incessant complaints and requests to investigate by citizens. This makes Calgary feel less welcoming than typically imagined. 70.72.44.213 (talk) 23:50, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Hi:

I originally posted something similar but it was deleted. I hoped it could be used after consideration on this page.

After the section on the lack of affordability in the city. I wanted to add:

As part of the Federal conservative "action plan," provincial government has done very little to address issues of poverty, unemployment, housing, and education in Calgary.

As examples, disability payments have been raised to a maximum of 1500 dollars per month, which means very little in a city with such a high cost of living. Public housing, similarly, remains poor-quality and often exorbitant in price. Calgary Housing Company, for instance, refuses to make substantial repairs to houses built poorly decades ago but insists on demanding sometimes 900 dollars in rent per month. Social programs for re-training and employment, moreover, stream people into minimum-wage (or low-wage) jobs, while funding consists of less than one thousand dollars for re-education, or in cases of bursaries and scholarships, nothing substantial to pay for high tuition rates, books, supplies and a high standard of living. Other social programs such as legal aid are also inefficient as serious torts or actions against authority are not accepted by most contributing lawyers. Lastly, student debt for post-secondary education is in the tens of thousands, leaving graduates struggling to re-pay their loans feeling exploited and though the quality of education received was not worth it.

Yet with so many struggling, Calgary spends hundreds of thousands of dollars holding what some believe are spectacles, such as The Calgary Stampede, which promote heavy drinking, gambling, and cruelty to animals as sport. This leaves many wondering about Calgarian social culture and the competence of city and provincial governments (although admittedly The stampede makes millions in only days, none of which are re-distributed to solve any contemporary issues).

Unfortunately, the NDP and Liberals offer very little as alternatives. They are often unresponsive and advocate only a very minimal welfare state as a solution to contemporary problems. 70.72.44.213 (talk) 23:49, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

In both sections above, your additions appear to be your personal point of view, and basically essays. There is also an issue of undue weight. For instance, is a paragraph on the prevalence (or lack of) surveillance cameras really something that a reader looking to learn about this topic would need to know? Likewise your Contemporary Issues section. I appreciate your efforts, but while these would make the basis of a decent essay, they don't fit the scope of an encyclopedic entry. Regards, Resolute 03:15, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Hi Editors/Everyone:

I'd like to add the following to the article. My problem is that it's difficult to find sources for what I take to be empirical facts (many issues, sadly, are not yet discussed in sources when it comes to Calgary), so if anyone would like to substantiate these claims with sources for editorial consideration, please feel more than welcome. Like my other descriptions for the entry, I leave it to the people in charge to take what they like, and I leave my comments to this section if I am denied the ability to contribute to the actual article itself. I think these descriptions are important for people trying to get a good grasp of what the city is like, although I certainly can understand that some may be shy about adding them to an entry due to their non-utopian nature. In any case, they're well-intentioned, and I do hope they find a place in the overall picture of Calgary through Wikipedia.

..............

Transportation, unfortunately, leaves much to be desired in comparison to other cities such as Toronto, Vancouver, or Montreal. It is crowded, costly and inefficient, and soaring gas-prices coupled with high insurance rates make owning a vehicle in Calgary more of a burden than a luxury. Streets not originally designed for the increase of vehicles that accompanied Calgary's population boom have become far too congested and noisy as well. And it is unclear what steps local and provincial governments are taking to improve this problem and public transportation across the city.

Some complain that though Calgary has become much more tolerant of different cultures, it continues to harbour racist/ethnocentrist practices and attitudes in many of its institutions. Many, as a result, often move elsewhere in the country like Montreal, Toronto, or Vancouver because they feel multiculturalism and tolerance are better represented in those places.

70.72.44.213 (talk) 01:53, 19 April 2012 (UTC) April 19, 2012

These are personal opinions, not facts, and the writing in no way represents a WP:Neutral point of view. Wikipedia is not a WP:SOAPBOX for the opinions of editors (this applies to both articles and talk pages). Hwy43 (talk) 06:15, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Should this be removed? It seams to be a "Advertising" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Epicbobman10 (talk • contribs) 15:13, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

The section discusses Calgary as an economic hub, WestJet is one of the largest corporations in Calgary. I think it is appropriate. The section could actually use one or two more images. 117Avenue (talk) 04:48, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

The "Recent History" section is not very neutral. It sounds mostly as thought it was written by a Board of Tourism employee, but it is Canada so why would anyone care? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.134.232.230 (talk) 15:28, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

An editor say that past and present residents of a city are "eligible" to be listed, and I would love to see the guideline to which you are surely referring. Aside from the fact that calling a dead person a "resident" is logically impossible - unless they are buried there - there are a host of other problems with this silly list. One, it is not a "standard" part of city articles, and smacks of an attempt to raise the esteem of a city by naming famous people associated with the city. Two, it is unsourced. Three, what qualifies as "notable" to make this list? (maybe the guideline says.) if it is simply people who have their own wiki articles - since one must be notable to have one - then I would expect this let to be hundreds of names long. That means anyone who has ever played for the Flames and Stampeders should be listed. Every mayor ever should be listed. Four, what makes one qualified to be listed? Again, being alive I would think is important, but since apparently it is anyone who has ever lived there, under what terms? Is it birth? Is a year long enough to qualify? Two years? Maybe a month. An overnight trip? I may be pushing it with the sarcasm here, but my point is it's a list with no defined terms or rules, that adds little to no value to the article. Listing a handful of celebrities without context or explanation isn't useful, and frankly this list ought to be deleted outright. Echoedmyron (talk) 15:39, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

There is no guideline per se. I'm referring to convention observed among articles within the Canadian community WikiProject. Current and former residents are typically listed, whether dead or alive for the latter. If we were to delete a person from this notable residents list simply because they are deceased, then why not start a tidal wave of notable resident deletions among the countless other Canadian communities articles with deceased entries. e.g., Let's remove John A. Macdonald from Kingston, Ontario#Notable residents.

Regarding the other concerns:

1. Per Wikipedia:WikiProject Canadian communities/Structure guideline, an article about a Canadian community may include the topic of "notable residents". Deleting Calgary's list outright would be inappropriate given inclusion is acceptable under this guideline.
2. The articles for all eight entries on the list indicate their link to Calgary. I haven't checked if each article confirms the link with a reference based on a reliable source.
3. A person is notable if they qualify under Wikipedia:Notability (people). This list could rightfully be hundreds long as you suggested. When a notable residents list becomes excessive, I've witnessed separation into a stand alone article or list (such as List of people from Edmonton). Your question about sports players is a good one. I do notice however that the most notable Edmonton Oiler is not listed at List of people from Edmonton. Regarding mayors, note not all local politicians are notable per WP:POLITICIAN.
4. Refer back to the opening comments above regarding convention observed among the Canadian community WikiProject. As of yet, Wikipedia:WikiProject Canadian communities/Structure guideline is silent on who qualifies. The US equivalent WikiProject guideline, which uses "notable people" rather than "notable residents", explicitly states "any famous or notable individuals that were born, or lived for a significant amount of time, in the city." However it is silent on the dead or alive aspect.

I do agree that the lack of "defined terms or rules" is a problem, but don't think deleting entries contrary to convention is the answer.

Coincidentally, I've been considering starting a discussion that proposes to change "notable residents" to "notable people" in the Canadian community structure guideline as numerous editors have recently interpreted the term "residents" to mean only current residents. Perhaps this is why the US equivalent guideline uses "people" instead. I will open this discussion shortly somewhere within the Canadian WikiProject. From there, we could expand that discussion about establishing defined terms or rules as well. I will notify once the discussion is opened. Hwy43 (talk) 17:26, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

• Following a poorly considered guideline for the sake of its existence is ridiculous, especially since there is no possible way for it to exist without violating other guidelines. The "notable residents" list as currently constructed is an example of WP:RECENTISM (the argument that only living and current residents should qualify even more so) and by definition, WP:POV. The POV issue becomes further clouded when you start debating whether it should list people who live in the city now. People who have lived in the city in the past but who do not at present, and deceased people. Moreover, the list is incomplete and unmaintainable. Why, for instance is Stephen Harper not there? You can't become more notable than the current Prime Minister of Canada. Joe Clark and R. B. Bennett being previous PMs who called Calgary home. What about Theoren Fleury, Jarome Iginla, Lanny McDonald, Bob Murdoch? What about current and former MPs, MLAs and councilmembers? All are notable, all are residents. Again, more POV when deciding who belongs and who doesn't. And finally, a random list of people who have lived in a city simply is not all that important to the city itself in all but a very small number of cases - those who are should be in the prose itself, explaining their notable ties. And not one of the entries in the current list qualifies, imnsho. Just dump the list. It has no value. Resolute 18:44, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

The lack of teeth in the guideline is ridiculous. Following the guideline, regardless of how one interprets its state, is not. Deleting an entry from any community's list because the notable person is dead is ridiculous (good luck deleting John A. from Kingston, even without the teeth at the guideline). Improving the guideline through discussion as suggested is not.

It is agreed that the current list is WP:RECENTISM and is incomplete. It may never be 100% complete given Calgary's sheer size. Remember that Wikipedia is a work in progress. Instead of deleting an incomplete list, we ought to improve it by adding to it through the normal editing process. Being incomplete is not a valid deletion rationale. If a separate discussion sets out the term and rules for notable residents/people inclusion and consensus is achieved, I don't see POV being an issue. Not sure how it is unmaintainable unless it relates to how this list is incomplete and may never be complete.

As it turns out, List of people from Calgary already exists. I will delete the redundant eight-entry list and link to this article instead, adding any missing people to the latter from the deleted former. Hwy43 (talk) 19:57, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

With due respect, please do not patronize me. I am well aware that Wikipedia is a "work in progress". My argument isn't that such lists should be removed because they are incomplete, but that they should be removed because they add little to no value to the article. Before you removed it, the list was nothing more than seven links of dubious value on this article. The only thing expanding the list would accomplish is to flood the article with more links of dubious value. The separate list article in see also is all that is necessary. Resolute 23:50, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

With the same due respect, to patronize was not the intent. I now understand that incompleteness was not your primary concern. I also wasn't aware of the separate list article's existence in the See also section when deleting the list in favour of a main article link. I will delete the section outright given the article was already linked. Hwy43 (talk) 05:23, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

The beginning of the article says Calgary is the fifth largest metropolitan area in Canada, but the metropolitan area list puts it at #4. Which is correct? Gronteam (talk) 01:22, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Fifth by population (2011 census). I'm not seeing a list that puts it at fourth. Hwy43 (talk) 02:05, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

we need one 16:52, 21 June 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.236.4.33 (talk)

Will be working on cleaning up this article next week adding sources fixing image problems etc..Will tag article with template that article is under revision when I start. Any help would be great ...my plane is to make it look like the Ottawa article.Moxy (talk) 20:15, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

The event, while significant I believe is not in depth enough to warrant its own subsection and rather should be incorporated into the recent history subsection. 68.144.45.142 (talk) 04:01, 15 August 2013 (UTC) Cole

I'm inclined to agree, and have removed the subheading. If there was enough written to justify a subsection, it would be different. But that lends the risk of placing undue weight. Resolute 21:53, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Also agreed. Hwy43 (talk) 08:48, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

This is an archive of past discussions about Calgary. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.