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Talk:Christianization/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Three Cheers: An End to Whitewashed History.

I'm glad to see that the actions of Constantine are no longer being whitewashed. It's important to report the historical facts as they are, not just the history that lets people feel good about themselves and their history. The people who write American History text books could learn a lot from this! --Lucavix 11:10, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Sure, but it's still important to distinguish between what Constantine did and what Theodosius I did. Wesley 16:42, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Cleanup!

the article needs serious re-organization. At present it reads like a random collection of trivia and anecdotes. After some general musings, we speak about Poland for some reason, then about Druids and the Goths, then back to the rise of Christianity in the Roman Empire. Then we mention some Roman festivals, then some Celtic festivals, and again some Roman festivals. What this article needs is a clear layout of time and space. "Christianization" has been occurring for 2000 years, and it is continuing today. We need:

  • early missionaries
  • Rome
  • Armenia, Georgia, Ethiopia, Syria
  • Roman Empire (Gaul, Germanic, Britannia)
  • Migration period, Goths, Lombards, Slavs,
  • Middle Ages, Crusades, Scandinavia, Hungarians, Balts, Finns, Reconquista
  • Reformation, heretic movements, forced conversion, Jews, Russian Empire
  • Colonialism, Jesuits, Africa, Americas, Far East
  • Modern proselytization, SIL, Chick tracts, etc.

Yes, this is a lot of material. Which means Wikipedia:Summary style, we already have lots of sub-articles, like Constantine I and Christianity, Germanic Christianity, Anglo-Saxon mission, Hiberno-Scottish mission, Christianization of Bulgaria, Baptism of Poland, etc. I daresay all the material required is already on Wikipedia, it just needs to be ordered properly here. dab (ᛏ) 09:35, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if inserting all those subsections has made the article more readable. I still think, it is an improvement; at least now I would have found the article on the Christianization of Scandinavia. -Zara1709 19:52, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

euroheritage.net on the added map:

I added a History of European Christianization timeline, as commentary above requested. Being my first contribution to the site, I hope it will not be deemed inappropriate. If something is erroneous to you, please notify me for change.

Wholesale deletions

Please do not remove large sections of the page without explaining your reasoning. Remember to use edit summaries. Isopropyl 00:02, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

The "See also" section does really need trimming. Jkelly 00:04, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

What was wrong with the "major dates of conversion" map? It looks okay. Isopropyl 00:07, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

On second glance, it does look kind of amateurish...maybe if it were cleaned up a little? Isopropyl 00:11, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
I don't know why it was removed, but it may be a copyvio, as a derivative work of some other map. I am not entirely comfortable believing that the entire map was drawn by the uploader. Jkelly 00:15, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Oh, duh, good point :) Isopropyl 00:31, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

From my experience a good half of the maps and charts throughout this site are drawn by the uploaders. It is whimsical to me why my map is an exception. If the clarity errors were fixed (which they have been now), placing this map in the article would turn it from a very marginal and poor article into a clear, historically-guided article. The map can be verified on every Wikipedia history page I checked under each nation's article, as I expected people to complain. Wikipedia demands "verifiabilty" not "truth" as the help sections even say. It is unreal why a historically-factual map (or as historical as this site can possibly be, usually dubious from my experience) cannot be used to help convey the content.

The clarity errors have been fixed based upon the issues informed to me. If there is another issue you see, let me fix it, then I will add it into the article for continuity.

Map of Major European Christianization Dates

Did you in fact draw the entire map from scratch? If you just superimposed text on an existing map, it is a possible copyright violation. Isopropyl 14:56, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

The map template is from the United Nations, and as I read, it is for public use. Other charts and maps used throughout this site also use a template and superimpose historically legitimate information on top. As many people commented above, something like this is really needed for this article.

Please stop inserting horizontal rules. Did you get the image from the main UN site? The maps section explicitly states that

COPYRIGHT NOTICE: Unless otherwise noted, the maps included on this web site are produced by the Cartographic Section and are copyrighted by the United Nations. Reproduction of any part without the permission of the copyright owner is unlawful. Reproduction of any part without the permission of the copyright owner is unlawful.

Please provide proof that the map is in fact in the public domain. Also, it'd be nice if you could remove the watermarking. Isopropyl 16:16, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Regardless of the copyright violation or not, this map should not be put into article because it is fairly misleading and full of errors. Just the fact that it gives the boundaries of modern, 21th century states while it speaks about Christianization during almost 2000 years should make anyone suspicious. For instance, on the map of (fairly norhtern) Russia it states from 800 by Germanic Kievan Rus state and later on by Byzantine monks (esepcialy St. Cyril and Method). Not a word of that is true. First of all, there is a lot of controversy wether should the rulers of Kievan Rus be considered Germanic. Political correctnes aside, that leaves us with question of historical correctnes: a) Kievan Rus was officialy Christianized in late 10th century, literaly over night, by quick and abrupt act of Vladimir the Great. b) Neither Constantine nor Method never set foot in Russia. Their great mission to convert the Slavs started in late 800s in Slavic state known as Great Moravia, which was roughly in the area of modern-day Hungary. By all accounts their efforts were fairly succesful, and the Slavs in the area were Christianized by the begining of 10th century - 100 year earlier than the map mentions. True, Hungarians, who conquered the lands of Great Moravia at the time, were Christianized only after 1000, but I think it is worthy mentioning that the Christianization of that central part of Europe started fairly earlier - especialy since the mission of Cyril & Method was the very nucleus of conversion of the greatest part of Slavic tribes to Christianity. Furthermore, the area of Bosnia & Herzegovina was definately not Christian from 400s onwards; it was not Christian a 1000 years later! Bosnia remained pagan well into high middle age, and even then, it developed a fairly peculiar sort of Bogumil heresy with its own, Bosnian church. 'Regular' Christianity didn't arive into the area practicly until the Turskih rule, with the efforts of the Franciscan monks who worked amongst the conquered populations. Holy Roman Empire was not just Austria (whose name, Osterreich, Eastren Realm, acctualy refers to the eastren part of the Empire), but the entire German part of Europe; and it definately did not exist in 500-800, but only from 10th century onward, after the fall and divsion of Carolign empire, invasion of Hungarians, and rise of Otto I. And finaly, without me going on forever about all the inaccurasies, why does the maps show only Europe, even without the entire Mediterranian basin? Through 2000 years, Christianity reached almost all parts of the world, and even in half of that time, it arrived to almost all corners of the Old World. --Hierophant 17:41, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
If anyone is interested, the map in question can still be found at: http://euroheritage.net/html/images/christianhistorymap.jpg It might still be quite useful for writing a section on the Christianization of Europe. -Zara1709 20:16, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Christianization of Native Americans

I have changed the caption of the painting of the execution of a native American to indicate the Christianization of native Americans was "sometimes" a violent and coercive process. The previous statement that it was "mostly" violent and coercive is false. Roughly speaking, in some parts of Latin America, such as Mexico, Christianity was indeed imposed by violence, and Indians who resisted too openly were burned at the stake. However, generally speaking, in North America conversion was not imposed by violence or even coercion, and this is true of parts of Latin America as well. The history of the Christianization of the Americas is actually quite complex and varied. (By way of example, where I live the Carrier people actually sent a delegation in 1865 to demand a priest and converted voluntarily. This was by no means a unique event. Such requests were apparently often motivated by the belief that the priests controlled the devastating diseases that native shamans were unsuccessful in dealing with.)Bill (talk) 18:58, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

...since it's not a native American in the illustration, perhaps your points are less than apt when applied to the attempts at Christianization in India; nevertheless, if you can report the gist of any historian's printed articles that confirm your views, they would make suitable additions here or at the various sub-articles. --Wetman (talk) 20:10, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Can I just say something? What the hell has been written in here? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.234.224.204 (talk) 04:08, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Illustrations

we should be careful with plastering this article with romantic paintings. It's okay to convey a notion of how Christanization was perceived in the 19th century, but it is misleading to use them as if they were illustrating the actual events. Thus, the caption of "a 19th-century representation of the 'docile heathen'", but adding the caption "the conversion of Native Americans was sometimes a violent and coercive process" to Image:Persecution of Native American religion.PNG is disingenious. If anything, parallel the first caption with "a 19th-century representation of Hispanic fanatical evangelism" or similar. --dab (𒁳) 10:01, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Christianisation is not identical to persecution

This article is severely POV-pushing the opposite. 68.110.8.21 18:09, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Tell me about it. I am trying to get the article Persecution of Germanic Pagans NPOV on this for almost five months now. -Zara1709 16:48, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
Historical persecution by Christians is basically a pov fork of this one. We need to NPOV both, and probably merge them. dab (𒁳) 09:28, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree with your comments here. The article includes way too much speculation on the reasons for conversion (which seem to be inevitably material in nature -- e.g. Baptism of Poland section) and should include references to positive cultural changes as well (e.g. abolishing existing practices of Child_sacrifice and other pagan rituals). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Frobnitzem (talk • contribs) 20:21, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Satanic panic much? Child sacrifice was not an element of any known form of Northern European paganism. :bloodofox: 03:29, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Well, there have actually been cases of pagan buriel rites in which slaves (or children of slaves) were buried as company for someone on the afterlife (there is case of this discussed in in the introduction by Padberg). There were definitely positive aspects of Christianization, like the abolishment of Slavery (which lasted until the 16th century). But I can't work this into the article - I just don't have the time. Anyway, this article and the Historical persecution by Christians need to be keeped seperately. Aside from the late antiquity section, I should have gotten the POV largely out of the article, and then these are almost completely different topics (the main issue in 'religious persecution by Christians' took place after the Reformation.) Zara1709 09:46, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Nobody (serious) disputes there were vast positive effects going along with Christianization. Abolition of "child sacrifice" still isn't a very good example of them. This is needlessly polemic. Human sacrifice in tribal societies is a rationalization of a sound anthropological impetus to kill. For the detached ethnologist, it is really much the same if people are killed for better harvest or because of heresy. Of course executions of heretics aren't commonly referred to as "human sacrifice", but that's just terminology. Benefits and drawbacks of Christianization are elsewhere. dab (𒁳) 09:20, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

human sacrifice and execution of heretics can by no means be compared or referred as the same thing with different terminology. Execution of heretics occured rather rarely(about 2 to 5 % of all accused when talking about the medieval inquisition) and could be avoided by rejecting heretical opinions. It was just about "crime" and punishment and belongs to the category of justice not religion. But there was no legal way to escape human sacrifice in a pagan society when you were chosen. Using the logic of the above comment even death penalty in the modern USA may be referred to as a form of human sacrifice(which in fact isn't). Both Christians and Pagans practised death penalty but some Pagans also made human sacrifices in adition to death penalty. Christianity never practised human sacrifices. And that's where Christianisation made a progress. Isidoros47 (talk) 23:37, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
Abolishment of slavery?? Both testaments of the Bible are full of passages that portray slavery as normal and accepted (Jesus doesn't even oppose it, in fact he works it into his parables), and Christians in the United States had practiced slavery for a long time before it was abolished here. I definitely do not see how Christianization brought about the end of slavery.
To disagree with you, the first recorded abolition of slavery occured in the Christian kingdom of Hungary with St.Stephen I. as king. 213.160.188.217 (talk) 23:13, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
In many places including Africa and the Americas, Christianity brought with it conservative, repressive, even oppressive sexual norms. Some indigenous cultures had no concept of homophobia or transphobia before Christianization. Some had more equitable roles for men and women.
And I agree that an objective historian would not make a moral distinction between human sacrifice and the killing of heathens and heretics. If you want to compare atrocities, some Pagan cultures may have practiced human sacrifice, but Christians came to the United States and massacred most of the indigenous people here, then forced the rest into Christian schools to assimilate to their culture.
Christianization is a very complex issue, it is not identical to "persecution" but if you're going to go about judging history by today's moral standards, depending on what group you belonged to (gays, atheists, scientists, Native Americans, etc.), it did indeed take the form of persecution much of the time.
There must be a way to objectively analyze those effects, and not gloss over or forget the atrocities, nor ignore any advancements. But I would suggest avoiding making any blanket statement like "Christianization led to the abolishment of slavery", because it's simply not true.VatoFirme (talk) 00:45, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

This article needs to be improved

Especially the section on the cross which is bad historical POV. The cross as a symbol did exist in pre-Nicean Christianity, there are quite a few references to Christians making the sign of the cross. Tertullian (2nd-3rd century) said "we ware are foreheads out with the sign of the cross." This would hardly suggest that the cross "was not particularly associated with Christianity before the 4th century." And what do we base " Constantine I is widely considered to have introduced the symbol into Christianity" this statement on? Perhaps we might just add "Constantine made Jesus divine and invented Sunday worship" while we're at it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.234.174.185 (talk) 01:45, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Frankish Empire

Just a cursory glance at the part of this wiki describing the christianization of the Frankish Empire and it is immediately apparent that this section is entirely unreferenced, over simplistic and glaringly wrong. To surmise;

  • It describes the Frankish Empire, are we to presume this is the empire of Charlemagne?
  • This very loose empire consisted of a myriad of different parts who became Christian at different times, in particular the Bohemians, Saxons and Wends so this portion is far too simplistic.
  • I am fairly sure that the Franks themselves had become Christian before the dissolution of the Roman Empire in 476AD, they were Arians an heretical branch of Christianity but Christians none-the-less. (I'll look this up in Gibbons). James Frankcom (talk) 03:40, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
"Fairly sure"? does "conversion of Clovis" ring a distant bell? As for Gibbon, let me recommend Ramsay McMullen, Christianizing the Roman Empire AD 100-400.-Wetman (talk) 10:53, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

A grand exercise in denial

There was hardly a European country that was not converted to Christianity by force. Maybe not Ireland. Once the leaders were converted, the populace was forced to convert. Getting a clear view of the history of Christian violence is a huge issue today in view of all the saber-rattling about Muslim violence. We should not make moral judgments about people before we see the extent of what they have done.

Bdubay (talk) 02:55, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Revert by Editor2020

Hi all, please look at the revert Editor2020 did on me, and read the sentence segment, "whilst some gratifications are outwardly permitted them". It is ungrammatical and should be changed. To use "are" we need to apply the present progressive tense with the gerund "permitting". If we keep " permitted" as s/he reverted to, then "are" needs to be deleted. Mistakefinder (talk) 06:24, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

That's a direct quote, which means it shouldn't be changed. Editor2020, Talk 01:30, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

A more prosaic definition

The term "Christianization" or "Christianize" is a also a colloquialism meaning to beat the stuffings out of people until they confess their error and adopt the correct (Christian) belief. As in " A come-to-Jesus" experience. Also adopted by Jews, as in: "Izzie got Christianized yesterday; he's still in hospital". Or today: "I Christianized the little brute. Won't be snatching any more purses".

2601:8:8280:9C8:C4AD:F02F:EFD7:6C11 (talk) 21:02, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Uhm, Romania?

Hello, Christianization of Romania? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:30A:2ED6:9470:41AE:33AC:E90C:ECDB (talk) 02:48, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

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Spelling?

I went through and made sure we were using more consistent spelling. Previsouly we had a mix of both the 'ize' and 'ise' ways to spell such words. Being that the page title uses a 'z' and American English in general makes use of the 'z' rather than 's' in these words, I have taken the liberty of changing the spelling on the page. Feel free to revert it if its not acceptable, but it looks really odd seeing both spellings next to eachother, so I'd advise you pick one. Most of the other wikipedia articles make use of 'Christianised', so maybe that would've been better for Wikipedia consistency, but then the title of this page would need to change, and I have no idea how to do that. 71.120.201.39 18:28, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Agreed that the title should be changed to Christianisation. 220.238.175.61 (talk) 06:16, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

What other articles use is irrelevant: both spellings are considered equally acceptable for the encyclopaedia as a whole (that is, consistency between articles is not needed, nor is the spelling conventions used elsewhere a valid factor in determining which to use in any other given articles). Firejuggler86 (talk) 01:10, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Old Prussian "Genocide" POV

Someone possibly antitheist appears to have made a bad faith edit in the lead claiming that Christianisation was tantamount to "genocide" in Old Prussia.

Un like the Soviet genocide or Reign of Terror perpetrated by antitheists/ communists/ anarchists/ other radical left ideologues, and while the Armenian genocide and Assyrian Genocide continue to be denied by "secular" Turkish "nationalists", there is no such thing as a Old Prussian Genocide there in wiki as of today. This is one of the reasons why Larry Sanger a wiki co-founder and an agnostic fled this website.

The wiki article on genocide itself states for an event in history to be called genocide it needs to confirmed as such by UN conventions

There's no doubt that Old Prussian pagans may have been oppressed and ethnically cleansed/ assimilated in pre-modern times by Christian zealots and bigots in the Dark Ages of the mediaeval Europe, but the "genocide" term often used for mass killings in the modern era only. Until someone can show that the UN recognises it as such, the "genocide" claim is probably just another anticlerical or fiberal polemics and rhetorics that's been grossly exaggerated. Nolicmahr (talk) 06:37, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

For discussion: Special:Diff/1045367969 Nolicmahr (talk) 06:47, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

I have removed the portion about Old Prussians. They would be an obscure example for a lede and most importantly they seem to have assimilated rather exterminated. That said, "Often the conversion of the ruler was followed by the compulsory baptism of his subjects, often resulting in genocide and ethnic cleansing of whole nations." still does not make sense. Mass killing of opponents and people who refused to convert, okay, that seems a plausible scenario. 195.169.52.55 (talk) 11:06, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 23 August 2021 and 10 December 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Sehamahmadd. Peer reviewers: Angelv03.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 17:38, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Ancient

I am changing the first section's title, from early to ancient, but I am quite willing not to do so, if someone feels strongly about it. Ancient is technically the more correct term as far as modern scholarship goes, but since we are not bound by that, early also works. Taking the easiest path to an explanation, I chose the first sentence in the article Ancient Rome here on WP. It reads thusly: In modern historiography, ancient Rome refers to Roman civilization from the founding of the city of Rome in the 8th century BC to the collapse of the Western Roman Empire in the 5th century AD. It encompasses the Roman Kingdom(753–509 BC), Roman Republic (509–27 BC) and Roman Empire (27 BC–476 AD) until the fall of the western empire. Please, if anyone has a problem with this change, do say so. Thank you! Jenhawk777 (talk) 19:14, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Removing tag

Late Antiquity

Notes

Notes

Next installment

"There is no evidence to indicate that conversion through force was an accepted method of Christianization at any point in this era"

New tag

Holiday

Finished, finie, finita, complevit,  Done!

Standardisation of references

Splitting proposal

GA

Untitled

Denial

Few Christian churches built in the first half millennium of the established Christian Church were not built upon sites already consecrated as pagan temples ...

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