Talk:Clown

Opening sentence currently reads that a clown performs comedy and performing arts "in a state of open-mindedness" ('state' is a wikilink to 'mime') using physical comedy. Apparently this was a recent improvement from an even more obtuse version, but to me this phrase still doesn't make any sense. Is there some inside jargon being used here? Why does 'state' link to mime? What is meant by a clown having an open-mind, and as opposed to what? Surely someone with a closed mind is capable of throwing a pie in a face. Unless I'm missing something, I think the whole phrase can be dropped, as it's unnecessary to the definition and most likely covered by saying they reverse folkway-norms (another strange choice of words - why not just say societal norms? But that's another storyy) 2600:8800:239F:A900:F0D6:73E1:825:E100 (talk) 16:36, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

IMHO the lead is crap, doesn't follow WP:LEAD and I think that it should be re-written particularly as the phrase you have highlighted is nonsensical. Feel free, as my writing talent is poorer that whoever wrote that!! -Roxy the dog 16:44, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

I too agree that a rewrite is needed. I know it's linked, but cryptic terms like "folkway-norms" don't belong in a lead. HiLo48 (talk) 23:20, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Many statements in this article are not properly sourced. An example is the section on origins. No source is given for the following statement: “The clown … developed out of the zanni, the rustic fool … of the early modern Commedia dell'Arte, … directly based on the rustic fool … of ancient Greek and Roman theatre.” There may be some truth in this, but obviously the origins of the clown are not so simple. The Wikipedia article titled “the Shakespearean fool” describes one line of derivation from the court jesters in aristocratic households, which is obvious enough if we think of the fool in King Lear. The Encyclopaedia Britannica adds the medieval Vice in mystery plays “The English clown was descended from the Vice character of the medieval mystery plays, a buffoon and prankster who could sometimes deceive even the Devil. Among the first professional stage clowns were the famous William Kempe and Robert Armin, both of whom were connected with Shakespeare’s company." Perhaps some more knowledgeable person could help expand this section? METRANGOLO1 (talk) 15:34, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

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Could someone please revert this edit from October last year, and return the lead to its previous version.

The linked edit replaced the start of the article with a bunch of ChatGPT generated waffling, which uses a lot of words to say not very much - the older version of the lead is much more concise. 86.23.109.101 (talk) 14:37, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. M.Bitton (talk) 00:55, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

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Significant amounts of information should be added to cover the larger spans of clowning throughout the world. This article is so far only covering American clowns, and are not delving sufficiently into their history to include the histories with Jim Crow and Minstrel shows (see "Understanding Jim Crow : using racist memorabilia to teach tolerance and promote social justice" by David Pilgrim, https://archive.org/details/Understanding_Jim_Crow_9781629631790/mode/2up). Minstrel shows were the origin of the modern American clown, popularizing the big lips, big feet, and afro hair, as well as creating the circus.

This article also does not properly feature North American Indigenous cultural clowning, such as trickster spirits, dances and ceremonies to represent to rights and wrongs within the culture, and what these clown forms mean for their cultures. See "Clowns" by John Towsen https://archive.org/details/clowns0000tows_c9j6/page/10/mode/2up "Trickster" from the Canadian Encyclopedia https://thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/trickster

Other forms of clowning must be researched to create a well-rounded article. American clowns are not the only clowns worldwide, and other cultures are not being fairly represented. CatMayhaps (talk) 21:32, 29 November 2025 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. NotJamestack (✉️|📝) 21:40, 29 November 2025 (UTC)