Talk:Cyrillic script/Archive 2

I have just removed this sentence Punctuation for Cyrillic text is similar to that used in European Latin-alphabet languages. from the encoding section, where clearly it didn't belong. It is not obvious where it does belong and in any case it is uncited and possibly wrong (the Apostrophe article describes a unique mark used in Ukrainian and Bylorussian, for example).

New section on punctuation needed? --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 12:58, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm not entirely convinced that this is a real issue. The item that drew my attention was a recent edit (at Apostrophe#Unicode) which reads:

U+02BC ʼ MODIFIER LETTER APOSTROPHE (from Unicode block Spacing Modifier Letters) is preferred where the apostrophe is to represent a modifier letter (for example, in transliterations to indicate a glottal stop). In the latter case, it is also referred to as a letter apostrophe. The letter apostrophe may be used, for example, in transliterations to represent the Arabic glottal stop (hamza) or the Cyrillic "soft sign", or in some orthographies such as cʼh of Breton, where this combination is an independent trigraph.^[1] ICANN considers this the proper character for Ukrainian apostrophe within IDNs.^[2] This character is rendered identically to U+2019 in the Unicode code charts, and the standard cautions that one should never assume this code is used in any language.^[1]

Spacing Modifier Letters reads:

Spacing Modifier Letters is a Unicode block containing characters for the IPA, UPA, and other phonetic transcriptions. Included are the IPA tone marks, and modifiers for aspiration and palatalization. The word spacing indicates that these characters occupy their own horizontal space within a line of text.

and the ICANN document cited reads

3.6. Ukrainian Apostrophe <U+02BC>
Apostrophe in Ukrainian is a letter (sometimes referred as "quasi-letter") with its use somewhat similar to Russian letter "ъ" (U+044А). Apostrophe is widely used in Ukrainian and cannot be omitted when writing. [...] Due to complexity of entering U+02BC on the keyboard, it is common that people are using punctuation apostrophe (U+0027), which is not allowed in domain labels.

thus, as far as the Unicode Consortium is concerned, it should only be used in linguistics. According to ICANN, it is a valid character in Ukrainian but de facto the typewriter apostrophe is widely used. (Note that ICANN incorrectly describes U+0027 as a "punctuation apostrophe" when in fact it is a "typewriter apostrophe". The punctuation apostrophe is U+2019 ’ RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK. The Ukrainian mark is also known (we say[?]) as a "letter apostrophe".

Is this a mountain or a mole-hill? --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 15:24, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

I have a valid question.

I am a Macedonian, and my question is: If Macedonians have been Greek for over 3000 years like the Greeks claim, and if Alexander the Great Macedonian was Greek, and influenced Greece more then anyone else in history, and if everything the Greeks say about Macedonia is true, then why is the Macedonian alphabet on the Cyrillic page. Why is the Macedonian Alphabet not on the Greek page next to the Ionia, Athens, Corinth, Argos, Euboea, and Modern Greek Alphabets ? Do the Macedonians qualify as Greeks when we talk about alphabets, or not ?

Why is the Macedonian Alphabet officially using Cyrillic Letters given to us by the Macedonians Kiril & Metodi, and why is the Macedonian Alphabet not using the Greek Letters, and have it's own version of a Greek alphabet, and placed next to the Ionia, Athens, Corinth, Argos, Euboea, and Modern Greek Alphabets in the image that has been provided on the Greek alphabet page http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/Griechisches_Alphabet_Varianten.png ?

By looking at this link, are we suggesting that Macedonians speak a Slavic, or Proto-Slavic Language and not a Greek Language while the Greeks openly claim that Macedonians have been Greek since Ancient times ???

http://www.ancientscripts.com/greek.html

If this is a serious web site, then I suggest that the work that has been done by Tome Boshevski & Aristotel Tentov be given serious consideration, because it will fill the void. The knowledge that has been given to us by Tome Boshevski & Aristotel Tentov has been used to successfully decipher ancient manuscripts that have been kept in Russian archives for centuries. Making that information available is better then hiding the truth, or book burning. Here is a external link to help http://rosetta-stone.etf.ukim.edu.mk/ . Here is an internal link without English translation Macedonian decipherment of the centre text of the Rosetta Stone

Obviously the Greek propaganda campaign still has lots of holes in it, with questions that can't be answered.

If I didn't make my question clear enough, then explain to me what you do not understand.

Best Regards !

Blagoja73 (Blagoja73 (talk) 17:37, 4 May 2012 (UTC))

Dear Blagoja,

I will try to answer your questions:

"If Macedonians have been Greek for over 3000 years like the Greeks claim, and if Alexander the Great Macedonian was Greek, and influenced Greece more then anyone else in history, and if everything the Greeks say about Macedonia is true, then why is the Macedonian alphabet on the Cyrillic page. Why is the Macedonian Alphabet not on the Greek page next to the Ionia, Athens, Corinth, Argos, Euboea, and Modern Greek Alphabets ? Do the Macedonians qualify as Greeks when we talk about alphabets, or not ?"

what Greeks claim is that ANCIENT Macedonians were Greeks. However, Ancient Macedonia was conquered by Romans in 163 BC and the first slavs began settling in the Balkans in the 6th century AD, i.e. a long time after that So, it is completely impossible that ancient Macedonians spoke slavic language. The slavic writing system and orthodox religion were introduced in Macedonia in 9th century AD during the reign of tsar Boris I of Bulgaria (at that time Macedonia was part of Bulgaria). And Cyril and Methodius were byzantine missionaries on service of the Byzantine emperor.

As to the sources you provide, I would advise you not to read any sources from Balkan authors, because most of them are quite biased. Read sources written in English by internationally renowned historians. Moreover, this is the English wikipedia and not everybody speaks Macedonian.

I hope I have answered your questions.

Regards: Scheludko (talk) 17:11, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

The thought that the Cyrillic alphabet was created by Macedonians is false. There is no record of Macedonian identity in the 9th century, when the alphabet was invented. It was created in what would now fall under the modern territory of North Macedonia, but back then in was in the First Bulgarian Empire, and created by St Clement of Ohrid, who named the alphabet "Cyrillic" because he studied under Cyril and Methodius, and wanted to honor them. The brothers, Saints Cyril and Methodius, invented the Glagolitic alphabet, and should get praised for that. KeymasterOne (talk) 16:29, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Blagoja73 (talk • contribs) 16:07, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Greetings Scheludko

The word Slav was first used in the 14th Century. I'm sure we all understand that the word Slav did not exist in ancient times, and it would have been impossible to refer to Ancient Macedonians as Slav, because the word Slav did not exist in that time.

It is like you say, that Greeks "CLAIM" Ancient Macedonians were Greek (it is an unproven claim). This is for political reasons. The Greeks also changed the name of the region from "Northern Greece" to "Macedonia" in 1988, because the fear of territorial claims by the Republic of Macedonia. The name of Aegean Macedonia has been changed by Greece 3 times in the past 50 years, finally ending with the name Macedonia.

You say that it is impossible that Ancient Macedonians spoke a Slavic language. Macedonians are Proto-Slavic, and there is evidence to show this. Slavonic peoples didn't magically appear from the wind in the 9th century.

Kiril, and Metodi were Macedonian, and the Macedonians were the first people in Europe to embrace Christianity and make it part of their daily lives. Read it from your Bible if you don't like my links.

My question is, If Macedonians have been Greek for 7000 years, then where is the Macedonian Alphabet ?

Here

link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrillic

Or Here

link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_alphabet link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Griechisches_Alphabet_Varianten.png

(Blagoja73 (talk) 00:26, 9 May 2012 (UTC))

Hi, Blagoja. Since I am not in the mood for such ludicrous discussion I will be brief. The Macedonian alphabet is an alphabet not older than half a century or so. Why? Because there was no Republic of Macedonia (or whatever you call your country) and there was no such thing as Macedonian alphabet. This is due to the fact that your country is an offspring from Yugoslavia - a more or less successful project against Bulgaria and the Bulgarian nation. You claim a Greek as your greatest hero, you claim Bulgarian tzar as your own, you claim connections with Cleopatra and Ancient Egypt, you claim connections with the Roman Empire etc. etc. I've even heard on your television that God himself first created a Macedonian, who used a stone and a stick to create everything else.

About Greece and Alexander The Great - back then there was no Greece. There were couple of Hellenic "nations" but not a whole country. Greece was created at the end of the Ottoman rule on the Balkan peninsula. Ancient Macedonia (a Hellenic kingdom or whatever you call it) has nothing to do with Republic of Macedonia. Not only culturally but territorially as well. What you are writing in your post is just а running around in circles. You fail to make a connection between Ancient Macedonia and Macedonian people today. Why? Because there is none. Do follow the advice of Scheludko and read foreign resources on this and that matter.Rbaleksandar (talk) 18:12, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

The Macedonian Alphabet was codified in 1940. The Greek Alphabet was codified in 1941. The Macedonian Alphabet was codified before the Greek Alphabet, and in a time before Macedonia was liberated, so there might not have been Republic of Macedonia in 1941 however the Macedonian Alphabet was codified. I believe if you have a look, you will find that there was no department for codifying languages in 1000 BC so it was not possible to codify the Macedonian language in 1000 BC.

I don't claim a Greek as my greatest hero. Greeks claim a Macedonian as their greatest hero. Tsar Samuil was a Macedonian Tsar, and Cleopatra was a Macedonian also.

There was no such thing as Hellenic Nations (as you call it). City States at best (which means a couple of tent cities). Macedonia was a Macedonian Kingdom, not a Hellenic Kingdom. The Hellenes were ruled by a democracy, while the Macedonians had a monarch until Aleksandar the Great conquered the Hellenes and made himself king over them. When the Macedonians defeated the Athenians they built garrisons, abolished the democracy, and sentenced to death all those responsible for the war.

I have waited months for an answer to my question, and you avoided it by calling it ludicrous. Does that mean you can't answer the question, so you insult me ?

My question is, If Macedonians have been Pure Greek for 7000 years, then where is the Macedonian Alphabet ?

Here ?

[]

Or Here

[], []

--Blagoja73 (talk) 07:44, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

--- My intent is not to insult you but to give you an advice - do NOT read garbage that was written by pseudo-historians and read materials that were created by international teams of historians. I am again answering your question (obviously you did not get my message in the previous post) - the alphabet used in your country is the fruit of the project called Yugolsavia. Before that the territory of your country was occupied mostly by Bulgarians. Yugoslavia was first known as Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes. Notice that there is no Macedonians in there. Because there were none. There is a long history of territorial struggle between the Serbs and Bulgarians, which I am not going to discuss here. However part of it is why your nation came into existence - the sole purpose of it was to separate Bulgarians from Bulgarians. And it succeeded. I'm not saying that your country or nation does not exist. Not at all. Even if it is more or less artificially created it is there. The reason you find it difficult to find various connections in the past of your nation is because they are fabricated. It's the same as me claiming to be a Bulgar (also known as proto-Bulgarians) because 1)when the Bulgars arrived on the Balkan peninsula, there were more Slavs there than the Bulgars themselves and 2)after more than 1300 years of existence as a nation it is ridiculous to claim something like "purity" (which by the way sounds quite Nazi to me). A country and nation that are less than 30 years old cannot follow its history as such even in the BC-period. The Macedonian alphabet is a derivative of the Cyrillic script (since it was the Bulgarians who inhabited that territory during the Yugoslavia-period (and many centuries before that). It was altered to make it "independent" from the Bulgarian alphabet because it is really hard to talk about "our language" and "their language" if it's the same. Sources about the Macedonian alphabet (as the alphabet used by the people of Kingdom of Macedonia (bordering Thrace, Paeonia etc.) are scarce and there are still not concrete proves that it was indeed the alphabet used by people from Athens for example. But one thing is for sure - it was NOT Cyrillic because a couple of centuries BC there was no Cyrillic script, which is the foundation to many modern Slavic (and not only) alphabets. It is the same as me claiming that the Bulgars were using it before they settled on the Balkan peninsula, which is obviously ridiculous. Final words: there are no pure Greeks, there are no pure Bulgarians, there are no pure nations anywhere in the world (unless you consider some God forsaken island with a couple of huts and people there living in complete isolation from the outer world a nation).Rbaleksandar (talk) 00:37, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

I should not have contributed here. Everything is Greek. I bet on Wiki I can find a birth certificate that proves Zues was born in Greece, and he was a Greek. And then I woke up.Blagoja73 (talk) 20:51, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

If I recall correctly, St Clement was active in the Bulgarian Empire, and come from the region of Macedonia. Some editors insist on labelling him as Macedonian, although I don't believe his ethnicity can be known.

The phrase "Bulgarian Macedonia" was a compromise, and not inaccurate. See the details in the archive: Talk:Cyrillic_alphabet/Archive_1#Bulgarian_or_Macedonian. —Michael Z. 2007-10-26 02:07 Z

St Clement was active in the Macedonian Empire.

Well he is born in Ohrid, Macedonia. So that means he is Makedonian. That's becouse Ohrid is in Republic of Macedonia not in southwestern Bulgaria. Use Google map to see for more informations.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.29.246.219 (talk • contribs)

The article Republic of Macedonia tells us that it was established in 1991–93, while St Clement of Ohrid lived in the Bulgarian Empire, over a thousand years earlier. I've adjusted the link to First Bulgarian Empire, so that it is more specific. —Michael Z. 2008-08-28 21:25 z

What's with Saints Cyril and Methodii? As far as I understand, they are called Sts. Cyril and Methodius in English, sv. Kyrill i Mefodij in Church Slavonic, but this encyclopedia is written in the former. Did I miss anything?

I wonder about this. There is an outstanding interest to force the letters to be equal with the numbers in Cyrillic, in Latin, in Chinese, in many text scripts. Speling12345 (talk) 6:02, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

The etymology doesn't have a single reference or citation. It also doesn't state when the name was first used. Slyapbg (talk) 21:26, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

Many of the characters are linked to non-exited pages, the pages do exist, if we can link those letters to the correct pages would be great Sydneybess (talk) 19:18, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

I mean I don't really care but is Romanian the best example we can give in the infobox of an article about the Cyrillic script? Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 09:26, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

I mean, yeah but some Romanians still use the script, especially in Moldova. I say we should either use the Romanian or a Church Slavonic script. KeymasterOne (talk) 16:51, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

This article is kind of controversial. Here are the following major issues which I have seen in the article and talk pages. Reply to this to help organize the details. Be civil, but please provide your opinion:

1. Cyrill and Methodius - These brothers did not invent the Cyrillic Alphabet, rather it was St Clement of Ohrid. The saints, Cyrill and Methodius invented the glagolitic alphabet.
2. Ethnicity of St Clement of Ohrid - He was not Macedonian, although he lived in the modern day territory of North Macedonia, it is very important to note that he lived over 1000 years ago, in the First Bulgarian Empire. "Macedonian" was not even classified as an ethnicity until recent centuries.
3. Ethnicity of Saints Cyrill and Methodius - They were born in the Eastern Roman Empire, however they spoke both Greek and Bulgarian, it is believed that they can be both, for example, their father being Greek and their mother being Bulgarian... and for Macedonians saying the brothers are Macedonian, I would like to see good evidence backing that up because this likely isn't the case.

KeymasterOne (talk) 16:49, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Hello. The article makes no such claims. As for the talk page, all sorts of editors come here. Most of the threads can be archived here and preferably they should be, since the talk page is getting a bit large. StephenMacky1 (talk) 17:04, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

There's an article for

• Arabic typography
• East Asian typography
• Thai typography

But not one for Cyrillic typography, Could there be one?

- 🐲 Jo the fire dragon 🐉(talk|contributions) 03:58, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

The immediate problem is that those articles are misnamed. IMO, they should be AAAAAA orthography – typography is about page design (which includes typeface selection). That detail apart, it would make sense to have an article on Cyrillic orthography but it will be quite a task:

An orthography is a set of conventions for writing a language, including norms of spelling, hyphenation, capitalization, word boundaries, emphasis, and punctuation.

(which doesn't even mention script!) Definitely worth writing, though.--𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 11:56, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Or did you mean Cyrillic type design?

Type design is the art and process of designing typefaces. This involves drawing each letterform using a consistent style.

Compare and contrast with

Typography is the art and technique of arranging type to make written language legible, readable and appealing when displayed. The arrangement of type involves selecting typefaces, point sizes, line lengths, line spacing, letter spacing, and spaces between pairs of letters.

An article about Cyrillic type design should be fairly easy to write. Cyrillic orthography is still definitely worth doing but is a significant task.

(btw, I have asked for advice at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Typography#Misnamed articles? on what if anything should be done about the names of those articles. I am no longer confident in my assertion on how they should be named) --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 12:45, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

By the convention that I've seen on Wikipedia, α orthography articles would have α as a language such as Russian orthography or Spanish orthography etc. 🐲 Jo the fire dragon 🐉(talk|contributions) 16:33, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

@Jothefiredragon "Cyrillic orthography is still definitely worth doing but is a significant task." I disagree. An alphabet such as cyrillic is a system of graphic units. An orthography is a set of rules for application of those graphic units. The former does not determine the latter, and indeed the various cyrillic orthographies do not represent a unified whole. Even within Slavic languages they range from phonetic Serbian to morphological/etymological Russian. Serbian has the exact same orthography for cyrillic and for latin spelling (Serbian orthoghraphy also largely coincides with Croatian orthography, they are based on the same principles, and yet Croatian never uses cyrillic). Similarly so, OCS used to be written in glagolitic and cyrillic with largely the same orthography. On the other hand, non-Slavic languages had to adapt cyrillic to their own, completely different phonological and grammatical systems.

It is clear, then, that cyrillic orthography does not exist as a unified concept. To write such an article you'd have to cut off closely related systems from each other (Serbian and Croatian orthography) and unite different systems (Serbian, Russian, Mongolian). Just like how there is no such thing as latin orthography – such articles would boil down to retelling and compressing the info already present on pages for individual language orthographies. — Phazd (talk|contribs) 16:47, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Yes, you are absolutely correct, a thoughtless error on my part. Russian orthography and Serbian orthography already exist, so problem as stated is already solved. To respond to the intent behind the question, Cyrillic type design it must be. 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 17:35, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

The History section is lacking dates. When did all those events happen? When is the "official" start year of Cyrillic? Please add the years to the relevant events discussed there. Florin Andrei (talk) 18:21, 14 March 2024 (UTC)