Talk:Deforestation/Archive 2

That sections reads like 1) the virus has its on will, 2) deforestation is the direct cause of the epidemic. To 1) it seems incorrect to say a virus needs a new host and therefor jumped like they made a conscious decision. Instead it seems better to say a potential new host population with very favorable biology (also primates) came into contact with a reservoir of the virus at a time that probability for further transmission in the human host population was much higher than historical. To 2) there is no proof that if deforestation would not have happened the aids epidemic would not have happened, so to state deforestation as one of the fundamental causes of the aids epidemic seems wrong. 2601:285:8180:1A10:808E:E2E9:3A6D:8B09 (talk) 21:47, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

I agree with you and have now deleted that section. My reasoning, from my edit summary: removed speculative content, taken from primary sources, not suitable for a high level article, not following WP:MEDRS. If it was clear then it would also be in the article on AIDS Here is the deleted text:

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The section on the links between deforestation with Covid-19 was far too detailed, was digressing and contained WP:OR. If it was so clear thing that deforestation was a "main cause" of Covid-19 then it would be included in the articles COVID-19 pandemic, COVID-19, Origin of COVID-19 but it isn't. I can see in the talk page archives there that the same editor who included it here with so much detail also tried to include it there but it was mostly removed or relegated to one small mention. Yes, covid-19 is zoonotic and deforestation causes knock-on effects on human and wildlife interactions but all the rest is speculation. It does not belong in detail in this high level article but can be mentioned in passing. Therefore, I will cut it down to just a couple of key statements. Here is the full text block:

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According to the United Nations, World Health Organization and World Wildlife Foundation the Coronavirus pandemic is linked to the destruction of nature, especially to deforestation, habitat loss in general and wildlife trade.^[1]

In April 2020, United Nations Environment Programme published 2 short videos explaining the link between nature destruction, wildlife trade and the COVID-19 pandemic^[2][3] and created a section on its site dedicated to the issue.^[4]

The World Economic Forum published a call to involve nature recovery in the recovery efforts from the COVID-19 pandemic saying that this outbreak is linked to the destruction of the natural world.^[5]

In May 2020, a group of experts from the Intergovernmental Science-Policy Platform on Biodiversity and Ecosystem Services published an article saying that humans are the species responsible for the COVID-19 pandemic because it is linked to nature destruction and more severe epidemics might occur if humanity will not change direction. It calls to "strengthen environmental regulations; adopt a 'One Health' approach to decision-making that recognizes complex interconnections among the health of people, animals, plants, and our shared environment; and prop up health care systems in the most vulnerable countries where resources are strained and underfunded", which can prevent future epidemics and therefore is in the interest of all. The call was published on the site of the World Economic Forum.^[6]

According to the United Nations Environment Programme the Coronavirus disease 2019 is zoonotic, e.g., the virus passed from animals to humans. Such diseases are occurring more frequently in the latest decades, due to a number of factors, a large part of them environmental. One of the factors is deforestation because it reduce the space reserved for animals and destroys natural barriers between animals and humans. Another cause is climate change. Too fast changes in temperature and humidity facilitate the spread of diseases. The United Nations Environment Programme concludes that: "The most fundamental way to protect ourselves from zoonotic diseases is to prevent destruction of nature. Where ecosystems are healthy and biodiverse, they are resilient, adaptable and help to regulate diseases.^[7]

In June 2020, a scientific unit of Greenpeace with University of the West of England (UWE Bristol) published a report saying that the rise of zoonotic diseases, including coronavirus is directly linked to deforestation because it change the interaction between people and animals and reduce the amount of water necessary for hygiene and diseases treatment.^[8][9]

Experts say that anthropogenic deforestation, habitat loss and destruction of biodiversity may be linked to outbreaks like the COVID-19 pandemic in several ways:

• Bringing people and domestic animals in contact with a species of animals and plants that were not contacted by them before. Kate Jones, chair of ecology and biodiversity at University College London, says the disruption of pristine forests, driven by logging, mining, road building through remote places, rapid urbanisation and population growth is bringing people into closer contact with animal species they may never have been near before, resulting in transmission of new zoonotic diseases from wildlife to humans.
• Creating degraded habitats. Such habitats with a few species are more likely to cause a transmission of zoonotic viruses to humans.
• Creating more crowded habitats, with more dense population.
• Habitat loss prompts animals to search for a new one, which often results in mixing with humans and other animals.
• Disruption of ecosystems can increase the number of animals that carry many viruses, like bats and rodents. It can increase the number of mice and rats by reducing the populations of predators. Deforestation in the Amazon rainforest increases the likelihood of malaria because the deforested area is ideal for mosquitoes.^[5]
• Animal trade, by killing and transporting live and dead animals very long distances. According to American science journalist David Quammen, "We cut the trees; we kill the animals or cage them and send them to markets. We disrupt ecosystems, and we shake viruses loose from their natural hosts. When that happens, they need a new host. Often, we are it."^[10][11]

When climate change or deforestation causes a virus to pass to another host it becomes more dangerous. This is because viruses generally learn to coexist with their host and become virulent when they pass to another.^[12] EMsmile (talk) 08:18, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

EMsmile (talk) 08:18, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

I've also removed the content about malaria because again it's speculative, poorly sourced, not following WP:MEDRS, relying on just some select primary sources. Compare with the article on malaria (a GA article) which does not mention deforestation even once. Deforestation is causing a myriad of problems but we don't have to artificially trump up content about particular diseases here. It's a high level overview article.

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Malaria, which killed 405,000 people in 2018,^[1] is probably linked to deforestation. When humans change dramatically the ecological system the diversity in mosquito species is reduced and: ""The species that survive and become dominant, for reasons that are not well understood, almost always transmit malaria better than the species that had been most abundant in the intact forests", write Eric Chivian and Aaron Bernstein, public health experts at Harvard Medical School, in their book How Our Health Depends on Biodiversity. "This has been observed essentially everywhere malaria occurs".

Some of the reasons for this connection, found by scientists in the latest years:

• When there is less shadow of the trees, the temperature of the water is higher which benefits mosquitos.
• When the trees do not consume water, there is more water on the ground, which also benefits mosquitos.
• Low lying vegetation is better for the species of mosquitos that transmit the disease.
• When there is no forest there is less tannin in water. Than the water is less acidic and more turbid, what is better for some species of mosquitos.
• The mosquitos that live in deforested areas are better at carrying malaria.
• Another reason is that when a large part of a forest is destroyed, the animals are crowded in the remaining fragments in higher density, which facilitate the spread of the virus between them. This leads to a bigger number of cases between animals which increase the likelihood of transmission to humans.

Consequently, the same type of mosquito bites 278 times more often in deforested areas. According to one study in Brazil, cutting of 4% of the forest, led to a 50% increase in Malaria cases. In one region in Peru the number of cases per year, jumped from 600 to 120,000 after people begun to cut forests.^[2] EMsmile (talk) 08:29, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

EMsmile (talk) 08:29, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

(copied from my talk page) EMsmile (talk) 07:37, 28 September 2023 (UTC) Hello! I saw you moved some information from deforestation to Meitei culture recently. I was expecting about a discussion (regarding that if you wish) with the wikipedia community before doing such a massive change. I was pretty saddened by such a hasty personal decision. Well, btw, if you want to move, Meitei culture itself is a vast place, and I don't think it's an appropriate target. Better move it to a more specified target like Meitei mythology or Meitei folklore. And if the topic might have been about the Greek or Roman or Egyptian or other popular cultures, I don't think anyone would have such an idea to remove it from there. 🥲😔 Haoreima (talk) 21:30, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Hi User:Haoreima, yes I removed it, together with a lot of other content that needed removal. Sorry that I didn't start a discussion about it first but I didn't think it would be overly controversial. In my opinion it was not WP:DUE, e.g. having that long poem there. This is a high level overview article which had ballooned into an article that was digressing into all sorts of detailed side stories. Sure, no problem if you want to move that content from meitei culture back to Meitei mythology, or elsewhere. I had moved it to meitei culture because that article had been linked from that section as "main" or "further". - And if there is content that is overly Europe-centric I'd have no problem removing that either; please suggest which section should be removed. EMsmile (talk) 07:34, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

I've condensed the information on zoonotic diseases which was overly long and drawing too much from one publication. Also, it was not specific to deforestation but all sorts of aspects. Copying it here in case you want to move it to another Wikipedia article where it might fit better, perhaps the one on zoonotic diseases.

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The report presents the causes of the emerging diseases, a large part of them environmental:

On page 23 of the report are presented some of the latest emerging diseases and the definite environmental cause of them:

EMsmile (talk) 09:12, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

EMsmile (talk) 09:12, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

This edit request to Deforestation has been answered. Set the |answered= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

MatildaMontorio (talk) 20:09, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: The image you have specified does not appear to be freely licensed, so please establish consensus for the change before before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. Best, HouseBlaster^talk 12:14, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

I don't understand the maths of this study at the beginning of the "On the environment" section but isn't https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7203172/ saying "if the current rate of population growth continues then ...." whereas we know from page 3 of https://www.un.org/development/desa/pd/sites/www.un.org.development.desa.pd/files/wpp2022_summary_of_results.pdf that the current rate of population growth will not continue? Chidgk1 (talk) 18:21, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

To be fair to them their study is 2020 whereas the UN document is 2022 so perhaps their premise was reasonable at the time of writing whereas it is not now. Chidgk1 (talk) 18:24, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Could someone remove the photo incorrectly labelled as deforestation in New Zealand, thanks. You can clearly see they have planted new trees to replace the cleared ones, this is forestry, not "deforestation" as defined in the article as converting forest land to a non-forest use. 49.226.128.25 (talk) 08:51, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree with you and have removed it. I have replaced it with a palm oil photo from Indonesia. Maybe we could have a 2 x 2 image collage here. EMsmile (talk) 11:48, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

I think this article is too long (75 kB (11843 words) "readable prose size") and has excessive detail one some topics which should be culled and condensed. I've started with culling some excessive detail on the health aspects, see above. I plan to do more condensing. I see it as a high-level overview article that should clearly interlink with relevant sub-articles like reforestation or deforestation and climate change. Pinging User:ASRASR who might like to comment, given he is working on desertification at the moment. EMsmile (talk) 08:33, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

I plan to move almost the entire section called "reforestation" to reforestation. This long segment is currently under the section called "control" but it really isn't a control method, rather perhaps a remedy. In any case, this topic has its own article so that amount of content about reforestation here is a bit excessive. I am pinging User:InformationToKnowledge in case they don't have this article on their watchlist but would like to add it on. EMsmile (talk) 15:40, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

I've done this culling/moving now. New length is now 61 kB (9538 words) "readable prose size". Still a bit on the long side but a lot better than before. EMsmile (talk) 21:56, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

I think the article is still took long. It has crept up again to 66 kB since I wrote my last comment six months ago. We can see above in the "section sizes" table which sections are overly long and detailed. I've just removed some sentences that I regarded as digressing or overly detailed. More needs to be done to bring this article length back down. I'd like to aim for 58 kB max. EMsmile (talk) 11:21, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

I've removed this content that was added in one go by a student in May 2024 in this edit (see text below). My reasons:

• The new content adds repetition. This already starts with the duplicated definition section. Also, we already have a section on impacts, so anything new/specific could have been woven into that section.
• This text is overly detailed and uses citations that are older (some of them) or very specific.
• Some of the wording is not encyclopedic.
• The text is generally overly wordy and academic in tone.
• Some of the content is too specific for this high-level overview article (which was already on the long side, even before this big text block was added).

The impact of deforestation on biogeochemical cycles

Definitions

Deforestation refers to the deliberate clearing and significant modification of forested lands, encompassing activities such as extensive tree cutting, forest thinning, and the use of fire to clear land.^{[citation needed]} This process results in the conversion of forest areas into permanently altered non-forested uses, including agriculture, urban development, or pastureland, fundamentally disrupting the original forest structure and ecosystem.^[1]

Biogeochemical cycles describe the pathways by which essential elements and compounds move through Earth's atmosphere, lithosphere, hydrosphere, and biosphere.^[2] These cycles involve the circulation of nutrients such as carbon, nitrogen, phosphorus, and water, which are vital for sustaining life by building and maintaining organisms, regulating climate, and supporting ecosystem functions. The balance and flow of these elements enable the production and decomposition of organic material, influence the Earth's climate system, and impact the overall health of global ecosystems.^[3] Disruptions in these cycles can lead to significant environmental and ecological changes, underscoring the importance of understanding and managing human impacts on these fundamental natural processes.

Understanding the specific impacts of human actions on biogeochemical cycles is essential for developing effective strategies to mitigate the most disruptive disturbances. By clarifying how activities like deforestation alter these vital cycles, it becomes possible to suggest targeted approaches for reducing environmental and ecological damage, ultimately promoting a more sustainable interaction between human endeavors and the natural world.^[4]

Impact on the Water Cycle

Deforestation significantly impacts the hydrological cycle in tropical regions, leading to an increased risk of floods and droughts. When forests are cleared, the loss of tree cover disrupts the natural process of evapotranspiration, where water is absorbed by trees and released back into the atmosphere. This disruption results in reduced moisture availability in the atmosphere, which can diminish rainfall and increase the likelihood of drought conditions.^[11] Additionally, without the root systems of trees to anchor the soil, deforested areas become highly susceptible to flooding during heavy rains.^[11] The absence of vegetation leads to faster runoff of rainwater, preventing it from being absorbed into the ground, exacerbating soil erosion, and increasing the severity of floods.^[1]

This alteration of natural water regulatory mechanisms by deforestation not only affects local climate patterns but also poses serious implications for biodiversity, agriculture, and human settlements in these regions. The increased frequency and intensity of droughts and floods can lead to crop failures, water shortages, and increased vulnerability of communities to natural disasters.^[12]

The study by the Environmental Systems Analysis Group and Wageningen University, found that removing all humid forests and replacing them with grasslands would significantly lower rainfall in those areas, especially above the equator where non-forested regions would also get less rain.^[13] In contrast, some parts of Southern Africa might see a slight increase in rainfall, while others would see a decrease. The effects vary with the extent of deforestation: in West Africa, losing even 30% of the trees reduces rainfall, but in Central and Southern Africa, it takes a loss of 70% tree cover to see a reduction.^[13] They stated that deforestation could severely impact agriculture across Africa, particularly maize crops in regions north of the equator.^[13] EMsmile (talk) 17:08, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

References

1. [1]

   Akais Okia, Clement (April 2012). Global Perspectives on Sustainable Forest Management. Croatia: InTech. ISBN 978-953-51-0569-5.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: date and year (link)
2. [2]

   Scheiner, Samuel M. (2023). Encyclopedia of Biodiversity (3rd ed.). Academic Press. ISBN 978-0-323-98434-8.
3. [3]

   "Biogeochemical Cycles". Center for Science Education Learning. 2011.
4. [4]

   Raimi, Morufu Olalekan; Abiola, Ilesanmi; Alima, Ogah; Omini, Dodeye Eno; Gift, Raimi Aziba-anyam (2021). "Exploring How Human Activities Disturb the Balance of Biogeochemical Cycles: Evidence from the Carbon, Nitrogen and Hydrologic Cycles". SSRN Electronic Journal. doi:10.2139/ssrn.3896054. ISSN 1556-5068.
5. [5]

   Cramer, Wolfgang; Bondeau, Alberte; Schaphoff, Sibyll; Lucht, Wolfgang; Smith, Benjamin; Sitch, Stephen (2004-03-29). Malhi, Y.; Phillips, O. L. (eds.). "Tropical forests and the global carbon cycle: impacts of atmospheric carbon dioxide, climate change and rate of deforestation". Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society of London. Series B: Biological Sciences. 359 (1443): 331–343. doi:10.1098/rstb.2003.1428. ISSN 0962-8436. PMC 1693328. PMID 15212088.
6. [6]

   Houghton, R. A. (1991-09-01). "Tropical deforestation and atmospheric carbon dioxide". Climatic Change. 19 (1): 99–118. Bibcode:1991ClCh...19...99H. doi:10.1007/BF00142217. ISSN 1573-1480.
7. [7]

   Li, Yue; Brando, Paulo M.; Morton, Douglas C.; Lawrence, David M.; Yang, Hui; Randerson, James T. (2022-04-12). "Deforestation-induced climate change reduces carbon storage in remaining tropical forests". Nature Communications. 13 (1): 1964. Bibcode:2022NatCo..13.1964L. doi:10.1038/s41467-022-29601-0. ISSN 2041-1723. PMC 9005651. PMID 35413947.
8. [8]

   Maeda, Eduardo Eiji; Aragão, Luiz E. O. C.; Baker, Jessica C. A.; Balbino, Luiz Carlos; de Moura, Yhasmin Mendes; Nobre, Antônio Donato; Nunes, Matheus Henrique; Silva Junior, Celso H. L.; dos Reis, Júlio César (2023-02-10). "Land use still matters after deforestation". Communications Earth & Environment. 4 (1): 29. Bibcode:2023ComEE...4...29M. doi:10.1038/s43247-023-00692-x. ISSN 2662-4435.
9. [9]

   Sohng, Jaeeun; Singhakumara, B. M. P.; Ashton, Mark S. (2017-04-01). "Effects on soil chemistry of tropical deforestation for agriculture and subsequent reforestation with special reference to changes in carbon and nitrogen". Forest Ecology and Management. 389: 331–340. Bibcode:2017ForEM.389..331S. doi:10.1016/j.foreco.2016.12.013. ISSN 0378-1127.
10. [10]

    Kassa, Henok; Dondeyne, Stefaan; Poesen, Jean; Frankl, Amaury; Nyssen, Jan (September 2017). "Impact of deforestation on soil fertility, soil carbon and nitrogen stocks: the case of the Gacheb catchment in the White Nile Basin, Ethiopia". Agriculture, Ecosystems & Environment. 247: 273–282. Bibcode:2017AgEE..247..273K. doi:10.1016/j.agee.2017.06.034. hdl:1854/LU-8531097. ISSN 0167-8809.
11. [11]

    Marengo, J. A.; Espinoza, J. C. (March 2016). "Extreme seasonal droughts and floods in Amazonia: causes, trends and impacts". International Journal of Climatology. 36 (3): 1033–1050. Bibcode:2016IJCli..36.1033M. doi:10.1002/joc.4420. ISSN 0899-8418.
12. [12]

    Bradshaw, Corey J. A.; Sodhi, Navjot S.; Peh, Kelvin S.-H.; Brook, Barry W. (November 2007). "Global evidence that deforestation amplifies flood risk and severity in the developing world". Global Change Biology. 13 (11): 2379–2395. Bibcode:2007GCBio..13.2379B. doi:10.1111/j.1365-2486.2007.01446.x. ISSN 1354-1013.
13. [13]

    Duku, Confidence; Hein, Lars (2021-06-01). "The impact of deforestation on rainfall in Africa: a data-driven assessment". Environmental Research Letters. 16 (6): 064044. Bibcode:2021ERL....16f4044D. doi:10.1088/1748-9326/abfcfb. ISSN 1748-9326.

EMsmile (talk) 17:08, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 16 January 2024 and 11 May 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Just.Awale (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by LynSchwendy (talk) 03:29, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Just.Awale (talk) 03:51, 21 April 2024 (UTC), hello, I added a new section called "the impact of deforestation on biogeochemical cycles." this is for a class, thank you.

@Just.Awale: It is best for new editors to learn to edit incrementally, rather than making huge posts of new material. Your ~15 KByte post of 20 April 2024 includes topics that are already covered in other sections (example: water cycle). Editors should try to "fit" material into existing articles rather than posting their own lengthy essays. It would take other editors a huge amount of time to review your contribution, and massage parts of it into the remainder of the article. —RCraig09 (talk) 04:18, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

We've had exactly the same problem here with another course: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Effects_of_climate_change_on_the_water_cycle . See also further discussion here. EMsmile (talk) 09:27, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

I've undone the recent huge text addition. There is bound to be useful content in there but it needs to be woven into the article carefully and incrementally. Students and their mentors cannot expect the Wikipedia community to do that work for them. EMsmile (talk) 09:30, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

I see the student put it back in in May. I have now removed it a section time (see also further down below on this talk page). EMsmile (talk) 17:18, 24 July 2024 (UTC)