Talk:Doctor/Archive 3

Discussion

• @Gelmini, No please don't add a Professional Doctorates section. Unless there is demonstrable ambiguity, such a list does not belong on the disambiguation page. It might be possible to have some sort of a list article on the subject. You're misunderstanding the usage of personal title here -- the usage is for the term "doctor" not for the entries listed under that heading. The idea is that the term doctor is used as a personal title for physicians and surgeons.

Here is the ambiguity. According to the American Heritage dictionary: 1. Doctor: a. A person who is licensed to practice medicine and has trained at a school of medicine, chiropractic, optometry, podiatry, dentistry, or veterinary medicine. According to Dictionary.com: doctor: a person licensed to practice medicine, as a physician, surgeon, dentist, or veterinarian.. So we're arbitrarily excluding any professional doctorate other than a physician. When you greet your Vet or Dentist, they are greeted as "Doctor Johnson," and same is true when these professionals greet each other. How can we just decide to include physicians and surgeons in a personal titles section and exclude everyone else, when all of these other professions, by definition, are included under the title? Gelmini (talk) 17:05, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

So what you need to do is establish this usage in the respective articles. older ≠ wiser 17:10, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

"When you greet your Vet or Dentist" you know they are your vet or dentist. Therefore, it is only logical that someone, searching on Wikipedia, would type in vet or dentist if that's what they were looking for. This is a disambiguation page, and we are free to use our editorial judgement (and common sense) in determining what people were searching for. Biosthmors (talk) 17:48, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Discussion

I have reverted the bigoted changes from basilink. I would encourage others to do so as well. This is not a forum for his myopic bigotry. Allopaths (MDs) are not the only doctors as much as they would like for people to believe. This page needs an object criteria such as a person holding a doctorate. The professionals DPTs, PharmDs, DMD, DDS, DPM, DNP, DCs, etc are doctors and the disgusting bigotry displayed by basilink where MD's are the only ones who may be referred to as doctor is misleading to the reader, which I believe is the intent. (Equanimous1 (talk) 14:39, 12 August 2012 (UTC))

First of all, I didn't make the "changes" you reverted, I just started the discussion here. No one is contesting that any individual who holds a doctorate is entitled to call themselves "doctor", and that of course includes physical therapists. As such, if this were a list article with a title something like "List of clinical professionals by degree" then physical therapists could be included under the doctorate section. The problem is that this is not a list article; it's a disambiguation page, and the function it serves is to direct a reader who types "doctor" into the search bar to the article they were probably looking for. There's no need to include such things as "physical therapist" or "doctor of nursing" on this page because if a reader was searching for "physical therapist" or "nurse" then that's what they'd type into the search box; it's unlikely they'd type "doctor".

Also, including it at all is in itself misleading, because it makes it sound as though "doctor" and "physical therapist" (with a doctoral degree) are synonymous, when they are not. I don't know about other countries, but I know that it is a requirement in the US that physical therapists with a doctorate address themselves as "doctor of physical therapy" and never "doctor", to avoid this very type of confusion. Basalisk ^{inspect damage}⁄_berate 15:52, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

It should be pointed out that it is not illegal for a Doctor of Physical Therapy or any other doctor to call themselves a doctor. I am on a state board and familiar with my state's laws. The suggestion which has been quoted was put out by the APTA and most doctors use it out of professionalism. A doctor may refer to a DO, DPM, DMD, DDS, DC, DPT, DNP, ND, PharmD, etc, etc. People using this site may very well come to the site looking for information about an optometrist, podiatrist, or physical therapist and type in the word doctor. The information is currently presented to skew the publics point of view toward a position that you feel is advantages for your profession. The point of view currently presented is both myopic and bigoted. It should be changed to reflect the current doctoring professions in the US, and I would encourage any wikipedia editor to change it to reflect that. (Equanimous1 (talk) 01:10, 16 August 2012 (UTC))

We need evidence that when people/media/reliable sources use the word doctor they really mean all those other things a significant proportion of the time. Wikipedia does not exist to "correct the record" before it is reflected in mainstream sources/culture. Eye doctor and foot doctor would be the things people would more logically type in if they were looking for two of those other terms you mention. Calling the current page "bigoted" isn't going to help. It implies that people here are "bigots", and we try to be nice around here. Biosthmors (talk) 03:42, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Also, it appears consensus is currently against making that kind of edit so it isn't exactly proper for you to encourage someone to go against that just because you don't like it. If you have any questions about how this place works to help you discuss this issue (or do anything else here) please feel free to ask me at my talk page. Thanks. Biosthmors (talk) 03:44, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

It's also important to remember that, as you admitted by implication in your last comment, the current trend towards physical therapists having doctorates is exclusive to the United States, and this article is intended to portray worldwide view.

I want to break this down. Let's consider the four possible permutations of profession and degree type (when comparing physicians and physical therapists):

1. Physician with doctoral degree (as is the case in the US) - a "doctor" by virtue both of being a physician by profession and holding a doctorate. Both connections to the word "doctor" are currently included in this page.
2. Physical therapist with doctoral degree (as is the case in the US) - a "doctor" by virtue of having a doctorate, but not being a physician by profession. This is why it is important to include the PhD title on this page, so that readers can understand that some people who are not physicians are also referred to as "doctors".
3. Physician with an undergraduate degree (as is the case in most of the rest of the world) - a "doctor" by virtue of being a physician by profession, but not of holding a doctorate. This is why it is important to include physicians and surgeons on this page, so that readers can understand that some people who do not have doctorates are also referred to as "doctors".
4. Physical therapist with an undergraduate degree - not a "doctor" by any virtue. Including the term on this page would be misleading.

The crucial thing to realise here is that, as I have illustrated above, there are two different mechanisms by which people become known as doctors: either by being a physician, or by holding a doctorate. Physical therapists who fall into the latter category are entitled to call themselves doctors, but in this respect they are no more remarkable than any other individual with a doctorate, and so there's no reason why the current inclusion of the link to Doctor (title) is inadequate to explain this. The reason that we include "physician" and "surgeon" is because not all physicians and surgeons fall into the former category. The fact that "most physical therapists in the US have doctorates" is no more relevant than the fact that most professors also do. Until the term "doctor" can apply universally to all physical therapists (as it can for physicians, surgeons and holders of doctorates in general) it would be misleading to include the term here. Basalisk ^{inspect damage}⁄_berate 17:47, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

As I said your point of view is myopic and bigoted. There are other countries where a physical therapist goes by the title doctor. I have colleagues in England who are physical therapists that go by the title doctor. I have read the same for South Africa and India. This is about fairness for all the professions that should be listed including DO, DPM, DMD, DDS, OD, DNP, ND, DPT, DC, etc. Wikipedia users may very well type in the word doctor while looking for anyone of these professions. Currently they are conveniently located at the bottom of the page where they are not likely to be noticed. In the case of Naturopaths (NDs) they are completely omitted from this page. If this page is truly a disambiguation page to help readers get to the information that they are looking for then other professions should be included. If a reader is not looking for a optometrist then they just won't click on that link. This page is being used to steer readers towards a narrow minded view of what is a doctor. At the top of the page it reads doctor or the doctor may refer to... That would clearly include the listed professions above. I do not pretend to persuade yourself. Allopathic arrogance knows no bounds. An administrator needs to step in and put forth objective criteria for this page. (Equanimous1 (talk) 14:03, 18 August 2012 (UTC))

So in your opinion should we be adding in all professions that can be called Doctor? There are others, like political science and education. I am sure I could find others also. Should all of these professions be listed on this page also? 70.199.192.43 (talk) 15:41, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

There is a difference between professional doctorates and academic doctorates. Political science and Education falls under the academic doctorate or PhD. You can't just arbitrarily include Physicians and Surgeons and exclude all of the other professional doctorates. Gelmini (talk) 03:59, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

You're missing the point - the reason we include "physician" and "surgeon" is because these degrees are not necessarily doctorates at all, and yet people who have them are still called doctors. This is not true of other professions. Basalisk ^{inspect damage}⁄_berate 08:36, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Here are a couple of articles that should be added: Juris Doctor and Doctor of Education, people who hold those degrees are entitled to put Doctor in front of their name. 70.199.192.43 (talk) 16:08, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Being on the list here does not mean you're entitled to put Doctor in front of your name, and being entitled to put Doctor in front of your name does not mean you're ambiguous with "Doctor" as a title of a topic in a general encyclopedia. -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:01, 27 August 2012 (UTC)