Talk:Forced labour/Archive 2

Hello, Grant65. There seem to have been a lot of dust-ups on this Talk page in the past regarding this article's leaning on the labor theory of economics. I don't mean to pick a fight, but are you aware of the guidelines set out for ideas departing significantly from the prevailing view in their field of study in Wikipedia:Fringe_theories? In a nutshell, the guideline states that the article should be primarily dedicated to the mainstream point of view, with a definite but lesser amount of emphasis on the non-mainstream theory. As things are, the article seems to treat neoclassical and labor models of economics as roughly equal at best, probably tipping toward the labor model.

Quite apart from the correctness or incorrectness of either model, the guidelines of this encyclopedia hold- quite sensibly, in my opinion- that the mainstream opinion of the field of economics is to be given primacy over the minority opinion of the labor theory in this article. That in mind, do you have any remaining objections to a re-write of this page to that effect? -Toptomcat (talk) 07:53, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

I think the major problem is the positioning of information regarding "payment of unfree labour." It is trying to make a marxist economic point, which is f"ine, but it probably doesn't belong before descriptions of slavery and other forms of labour which pretty much everyone would agree are "unfree." Also, as I have mentioned above, such ideas should be expressed noting that they are not the views of mainstream economics. --Jabberwalkee (talk) 01:43, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay in replying; I went on holiday and forgot to put up an "away" message.

The presumption that the labour theory of value (LTV) is a "fringe theory" is not correct. In the first place, it would be more accurate to say that the relationship between labour and value is now a fringe subject, at least to neoclassical economists, rather than a fringe theory. LTV is not a fringe theory any more than classical economics is a fringe framework. It was the view held by the founders of modern economics, including Adam Smith. Second, I would argue that value is defined differently by classical economics and neo-classical economics i.e. value and price are quite separate in LTV (classical economics), whereas neo-classical economics does not uphold a concept of innate value and is therefore concerned with price (market value). So the difference between LTV and marginal utility is central to this subject.

Doesn't "unfree labour" necessarily mean either the non-payment of wages, or inadequate wages? I think that is a truism and it does not preclude arguments about whether such conditions are met in particular cases. Grant | Talk 09:12, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

The guideline is called 'Fringe theories', certainly, but its application goes a little further than that. To quote: "We use the term fringe theory in a very broad sense to describe ideas that depart significantly from the prevailing or mainstream view in its particular field of study." In this sense, the labor theory of value is a fringe theory as outlined by the guideline- even if you do not consider it to be a fringe theory in any more general sense of the term. Whether or not the labor theory of value had support historically- even among those whose work is considered to have considerably informed the present mainstream view- is less relevant than whether it is considered to be a mainstream way of accounting for value now, which is certainly not the case.

Your second paragraph about the definition of unfree labor contains a number of unstated assumptions from the LTV, so I would prefer to address the question of the LTV being a mainstream view before tackling it. -Toptomcat (talk) 12:14, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

That is a circular argument: you consider that LTV is a fringe theory — something which has not been demonstrated — and therefore anyone who argues for its inclusion is also "fringe". Grant | Talk 04:34, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Not at all. The word's use is not intended as an attack on your person or the labor theory's veracity itself: rather, it is being used as a technical term relating to one of Wikipedia's policies. "Fringe", as defined by the Fringe Theories guideline: "We use the term fringe theory in a very broad sense to describe ideas that depart significantly from the prevailing or mainstream view in its particular field of study." In other words, the Fringe Theories guideline uses "fringe" in an unusually broad and nonstandard sense not to mean merely theories forwarded by kooks with their metaphorical underwear on their head. Instead, a "fringe theory", as defined by the guideline, is merely one which is non-mainstream in its field of study. The last few sentences of the opening of our article on the labor theory of value read "Different labor theories of value prevailed amongst classical economists through to the mid-19th century. It is especially associated with Adam Smith and David Ricardo. Since that time, it is most often associated with Marxian economics; while modern mainstream economics replaces it by the marginal utility approach." (Emphasis added.) Therefore, the labor theory of value qualifies as a fringe theory in the technical sense used by the guideline, even if it does not match the usual sense of the term. No slight on the labor theory itself, your arguments for its inclusion, or your person are intended. My apologies if I caused any offense. --Toptomcat (talk) 06:22, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

None taken. I understand the WP definition of fringe, but point out two major objections: (1) it requires a judgment call about a deep-rooted controversy and so I don't accept that LTV meets the WP definition. Under your (very broad) interpretation, for example, global warming would have been regarded as a fringe theory until a few years ago. (2) Because it relates to labour, LTV is far more significant to this subject than it is to "mainstream economics" (whatever that is considered to be) in general. IMO, although there are notable scholars (generally neoliberals or postmodernists) of unfree labour who utilize subjective theories of value, a significant proportion, possibly most of them, utilize LTV. It does not matter that this is because the field is dominated by Marxists, neo-Smithians, neo-Ricardians or whatever; as Wikipedians we are not here to take sides in controversies/schisms that are fundamental characteristics of the subject in question.

By the way, I wasn't aware of the statement in the LTV article that "modern mainstream economics replaces it by [sic] the marginal utility approach..." but I find it ungrammatical and tendentious. Grant | Talk 12:55, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

A judgment call would be required if we were attempting to decide which theory is correct. We are not- we are attempting to decide which of the two theories is mainstream. Most present advocates of Marxist economics in general, and the labor theory of value in particular, would readily admit that their economic worldview is not shared by the majority of those in the field of economics. The comparison to global warming is apt: global warming *is* presented as a highly controversial and altogether uncertain theory in the 2004 version of the article, when the consensus among climatologists for or against global warming was far less clear than the present consensus among economists against the labor theory of value. As for your second objection...while the topic of astral projection may be covered most thoroughly by Eliphas Levi, the Theosophists and the Order of the Golden Dawn, but we don't write the article for that topic from their point of view. Their views are discussed and given ample explanation, but they are clearly labeled as such and are by no means the POV from which the article is written.-Toptomcat (talk) 20:31, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

I can only concur with the last sentence and point out that — since neither theory of value is truly dominant in the literature on unfree labour — the same should apply to marginal utility.

IMO one effect of the scholars of unfree labour frequently being labour historians or other social scientists, is that marginal utility is rarely even mentioned in the literature. However, I will gladly defer to anyone who can show otherwise. Grant | Talk 07:44, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm not so sure this belongs here. It sounds more like a stereotype or folk myth than a real syndrome. Supposedly Spanish-speaking grandmothers are dying off because no-one appreciates their work . . . meanwhile all treatments are useless. Apparently this syndrome only effects you if you speak Spanish, have great virtue, and get all your happiness from serving your family and your beautiful grandchildren.

Somebody really needs to pay some attention to this article. Or delete it. As it stands its pretty unencyclopedic. 76.115.59.36 (talk) 08:08, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

And by the way, regarding the discussion/war I just read through up top . . . we're all slaves of one thing : our egos. 76.115.59.36 (talk) 08:33, 28 January 2009 (UTC)\

The articles states "Perhaps the most prominent example of chattel slavery was the enslavement of many millions of black people in Africa, as well as their enforced transplantation to the Americas, Asia or Europe where their status as slaves was usually inherited by their descendants." - this wording is very unlucky as it brings up the idea that the transportation like that of the transantlantic slave trade had parallel occurrences of transport to Europe. However in fact the slavery in medieval Europe had ended in the 15. century already. This had practical reasons and not so much legal status - just note how many European peasants left to oversea colonies in the 15. to 19. century - bringing Black slaves to Europe was simply not needed. Many European emperors did ban slave trade in their mainlands even though they were accepting it in the oversea colonies - again, for practical reasons to exploit the new territories. So, while one can not deny the mere existance, the numbers were extremely low - leaving the wording of "millions of black... transplation to... Europe" to be untrue. Guidod 15:05, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't mean or say "millions...to Europe". It says "millions ... to the Americas, Asia or Europe". It is a misunderstanding of the text to say that it implies millions were sent to Europe, although it could probably be worded better. Grant | Talk 06:37, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

IMO, it does need better wording. "The most prominent example" is the atlantic slave trade anyway - other articles like slavery have more space to sort things out. I don't see a reason to misnomer here however partial that is. Guidod 21:07, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Don't forget the slavery in the Ottoman Empire, which was very in Europe, too. The Muslims even had millions of European (Christian) slaves (not all at once). Lastdingo (talk) 13:27, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

This article is missing a section on, or a mention of Angaria (Roman law). --İnfoCan (talk) 20:39, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

A lot of the issues people raise above about this article having a "leftist" bias, and the comments about "the literature on unfree labour" all point to what I think it most missing from this article. The term "unfree labor" is basically one of Marxist political economy, is it not? If I'm right about that, a bit like the article on involuntary servitude, this article ought to make it clear that it is about a technical concept used in a limited context. It should say who coined the term as it is used here (if this is known) and maybe add a section about critiques of the concept (the only one I know of is that of Banajee, but given all the objections people raise here, I'm sure he's not the only one). I don't know enough to write such a section myself yet, that's actually the whole reason I came to this article in the first place. --Brian Z (talk) 06:05, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the message Brian. I'm a little pressed for time right now. Briefly:

• the question of where the term comes from is a good one and one which we should try to answer.

• there are scholars with neoliberal/neoclassical theoretical positions, who use the term "unfree labour" in an uncritical sense. They nevertheless tend to question the extent to which it it exists in a particular historical situation, as well than its entire existence.

• IMO, Brass & Van Der Linden (eds.), Free and Unfree Labour: The Debate Continues (1997) and Brass's Towards a Comparative Political Economy of Unfree Labour: Case Studies and Debates (1999), in particular, may be useful reading for you, in terms of overviews. (Brass has also more recently critiqued Banaji.)

Cheers, Grant | Talk —Preceding comment was added at 13:14, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Agree with the broader context added by Grant65; "unfree labor" is not exclusively a term of Marxian political economy. One example is that Thomas Sowell, who I believe most would label a conservative, or classical liberal, or free market economist, wrote an entire chapter in his 2004 book, Applied Economics, entitled "Free and Unfree Labor." (chapter 2, pp 31-68, ISBN=0-465-08143-6). Cheers, N2e (talk) 04:00, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

The article says serfs aren't called 'unfree' labourers in Academic journals. In my experience, they frequently are. CharlieRCD (talk) 14:16, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

The point of confusion here, I think, is that this section is written primarily about Medieval Europe. But when scholars use 'unfree labor' to refer to serfdom, they more often mean the harsh, export-oriented 'second serfdom' that emerged in imperial Russia during the 17th-18th centuries. --Brian Z (talk) 17:30, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

This article is missing a section on, or a mention of Corvée.--İnfoCan (talk) 02:59, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. There is an entire article on corvee as well. There should be a clearer relationship between the two articles I think. --Bruce Hall (talk) 12:02, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

I was always under the impression that indenture wasn't considered unfree since it was entered into willingly as a contract: e.g. "you take me to America and I'll work for you for seven years." Surely it isn't 'unfree' just because the person can't back out partway through, any more than any other contract is coercive?

I understand that it was often abusive and even slavery-like *in practice*, but surely the *concept* is fundamentally different? Vultur (talk) 03:04, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

I know what you are saying. The concept of indenture is that one's freedom is severely limited during the period concerned.

For what it's worth, all of the above attempts to say that the term is "unencyclopedic" or whatever, ignore the fact that it is now a widely used term in academic circles (whatever one thinks of it). It is a popular subjective category, not an empirical/precise objective term. Grant | Talk 07:35, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

OK, sure, if the term is generally used in serious sources to describe indenture, then that's how it should appear in the article. It just seems qualitatively different from most of the other things listed, since most of them people are either born into (serfdom, slavery, etc.) or captured into (some forms of slavery) rather than willingly entering into. Vultur (talk) 22:14, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

There is of course an historical connection between indentured servitude and forced labor. The first blacks sold in the U.S. were not sold as slaves but as indentured servants. Further, not all indentured servants, regardless of race, entered into servitude voluntarily. Some were sentenced to it. Lastly, an indentured servant could be bought and sold. Indeed most who came to the US were. The "sold" themselves into indentured servitude to perhaps the captain of the ship. In many ways, this is similar to many who are trafficked today who sell themselves to smugglers not being sure what they are really getting into. A mention of this, if even if it is to provide a link to a more suitable article, is clearly appropriate. --Bruce Hall (talk) 12:29, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Isn't workfare a (rather insidious) form of unfree labour? For instance a British woman, Cat Reilley is going to court over being forced to work at a "thrift shop" in return for benefits which are far lower than the UK minimum wage and under threat of destitution. Seems like it fits the bill for unfree labour to me, unless of course you're of the persuasion that oppression isn't oppression when it happens in the West.

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/887128-graduate-told-to-work-for-free-or-lose-benefits#ixzz1jGdXau1Z — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.32.130.14 (talk) 01:04, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

The "Payment for unfree labour" section seems inconsistent with the definitions given in the preceding (introductory) section.

It appears to imply that, somehow, forced labour is not "unfree" if the payment is sufficient.

But the distinction between "free" and "unfree" turns on choice, not payment.

If a person is well-paid, yet forced to perform work on pain of physical punishment, and physically confined such that she is unable to leave or "quit", I don't see how the payment, whatever the amount, turns "unfree" into "free" labor. It is the restriction of choice that makes the labour unfree, regardless of payment.

Surely a slave paid USD 1000 daily - or USD 1M - is still a slave if he is forced to work against his will.

I think the "payment" section needs revision so as to avoid implying otherwise. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.76.180.174 (talk) 05:28, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Apparently, according to this article in today's New York Times, more than two decades after the collapse of the Soviet Union (but with Islam Karimov's autocratic rule unchanged) Uzbeks must still provide "volunteer" labor, picking the cotton the government has a monopoly on (or, rather, in domestic terms, a monopsony since it's grown by private farmers). Stalinism lives! It even has a picture that so looks like the women in it are posing for a Soviet propaganda poster that I half expect to see "CЛABA TPУДУ!" in big red letters near the top.

Anyway, all amazement aside, something about this should be in the article, at least. And in Agriculture in Uzbekistan, perhaps, as well. Or maybe even a separate article? I doubt the Times is the only reliable source to have covered this. Daniel Case (talk) 19:35, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Actually, it seems, we have a good section here. Daniel Case (talk) 19:41, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Should compulsory education be considered unfree labour ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Iliketoeatbeansalot (talk • contribs) 16:30, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

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Conscript labor redirects here, but it might better redirect to civil mobilization. In any case the article seems to be a kind of smorgasboard of ideas under the banner of unfree labor, but unfree as is required, and unfree as in required and not compensated, are very different things. Being forced to work and being forced to work for no pay, in simpler terms, are different and categorically different as to make it the main distinction to make in this article. -Inowen (talk) 07:42, 14 March 2018 (UTC)