Talk:G8/Archive 2

Should the EU be categorized "permanent"? Or perhaps better categorized as just one amongst a number of leaders from international organizations -- on the same basis, in a sense, as the Secretary-General of the United Nations or the President of the World Bank?

As I understand it, your arguably correct viewpoint informs your recent edits to articles about the G8 summits. I'm guessing that you think that the G8 should be a group of eight members -- that it is more than a bit little awkward when the "family photos" at the summits always present more than eight world leaders. In a G8 context, the issue becomes something to do with categorizing the EU ...:

European Union Jose Manuel Barroso, Commission President?^[1]

In the following template/pattern, I understand that you would prefer re-positioning the EU elsewhere:

• Canada
• France
• Germany
• Italy
• Japan
• United Kingdom
• United States

+

• European Commission

I think your edit is questionable -- not because it's illogical, nor even that it's not true -- but solely because you haven't yet offered a citation to support the edit.

• See Wikipedia:Verifiability -- The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth — that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true.

In the absence of another cited source, the Reuters analysis which is cited at 34th G8 summit would seem to be controlling. Do you see my point? To summarize: it's not that you're wrong, but rather that you're not quite right either. What do you think? Can you upload a citation which verifies your reasoning and your edit? If yes, I would gladly help metastacize your edit throughout the entire array of G8-related articles. If not, I would feel justified in continuing to resist the very modest change you seem to be suggesting. Which is better? The bottom-line question becomes something like, "Which configuration is more readily verified?" --Tenmei (talk) 01:12, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

The Source does not say the EU is a member of the G8 all it says it it was at the G8 summit. There is no mentioning in the sources about the G8 being a member or who the members are. The source simply states the Jose Manuel Barosso Is the EU commission president. Furthermore the sources uses the following language" Borroso also urged G8 leaders not to backtrack on their..."If the words other G8 leaders then ity would imply the EU was a member without the word "other" it implies they are just invited and decided to do a similar thing to the actual members.--Lucy-marie (talk) 16:35, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I appreciate your reasoning; and I can point to at least one citation which seems to affirm your analysis. See the next-to-last paragraph in a recent article in the Toronto Globe and Mail -- "Canada a laggard on African aid."^[2] However, I continue to believe that the configuration you've edited out -- the G8+1 listing -- was helpful and arguably better. Assuming your view is best, I wonder how you would construe the following:

"The European Commission is not a G8 member country but has all the privileges and obligations of membership except the right to host and chair a Summit. The Commission has all the responsibilities of membership, and what the President endorses at the Summit is politically binding on him too."^[3]

Similar language is found at the web page of the Delegation of the European Union to the United Nations, beginning with a more direct, declarative statement:

Who are the G8 Members? The G8 countries are Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Russia, the United Kingdom and the United States. The European Commission President is a full G8 Member and has a leading role in representing the Union at the G8 summit. [emphasis added]^[4]

If this doesn't quite resolve this issue for us, what do you think might be more convincing? How can we find a way to move forward together? --Tenmei (talk) 20:33, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Firstly, a lot of media (like the globeandmail article) do not understand the issue of the EU and G8 and hence use the term "observer" even though there is no such thing with the G8. As more formal articles make clear, the EU has the responsibilities of membership, though it is not included as a "G9" because G8 stands for Group of Eight Nations, not Nations and Organisations. It has been a longer member than Russia, joining the year after Canada, and is always pictured along side the other leaders in photos (you never see a G8 only picture, always G8+EU) and flags on display always include the EU flag. Looking at the reality aI don't think there is any real controversy here and in fact we should correct the misconception that has arisen due to the G8 name in our role as an encyclopedia. The EU should be listed with the rest of the G8, as that is its role in the meetings, rather than listed with the UN which would be misleading as to its place at the summit. Further more, no complications would arise form this as the lists on most of these pages say "permanent members" not anything like "member countries" which would be exclusionary to an organisation.- J Logan ^t: 09:28, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I added the EC president to the articles since he took part, though this has been removed by Lucy-marie. I offered a valid citation on every page and the EU, as the stack of citations present show, is a practical member along side all the others - it only does not host meetings because it overlaps with other members and it is called G8 because G stands for group of nations and hence although the EU participates is its not a nation hence the name has not changed.- _J.Logan`^t: 15:53, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

The EU is a member of the G8, and the following official websites provide the evidence:

• The following sites state the EU is a member of the G8:

EU official sites

Press releases

European Commission

Governments

French Government Foreign Ministry

Belgian Government Foreign Ministry

G8 sites

G8 Genova, Italy 2001

G8 Birmingham, UK 1998

G8 Gleneagles, UK, 2005

• The following sites say the EU is a member, empasising that the EU is not a country:

G8 Information Centre, Canada

• The following sites say the EU is a member, using a form of words which empasises that the EU is not a country:

Canada G8 site

Russia G8 site

• The following site includes EU in List of Members of G8 countries:

G8 sites:

G8 Gleneagles, UK, 2005

• In addition, the following sites show the EU flag equally with the country flags at the page header (though other world leaders attended, their flags are not shown):

Governments:

G8 Canada

G8 sites:

G8 St Petersburg, Russia

G8 Genova, Italy 2001

G8 Gleneagles, UK, 2005

Academic:

University of Toronto, G8 Information Centre, Canada

And that's just a brief selection. Emeraude (talk) 16:51, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

The EU/EC is not a full member because it cannot host summits. Russia provides such a precedent; it was not until it was announced that it was going to host the St Petersburg summit in 2006 that it was considered a full member.

That's not to reduce the importance of EU/EC participation, but the G8 is a unique entity in that there is a full spectrum of participation by various countries and international organizations. Djembe (talk) 23:53, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :)

• "feldman1" :
  • Feldman, Adam. [http://www.forbes.com/opinions/2008/07/05/problems-unity-progress-oped-cx_af_summit08_0707feldman.html "What's Wrong With The G-8,"] ''Forbes'' (New York). July 7, 2008.
  • [see above]

DumZiBoT (talk) 11:26, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Discurso del presidente de francia (y protempore de la union europea) nicolas Sartozy avalando una expansion/modernizacion del consejo de seguridad de la onu y del G8, en la 63ª asamble general, el 23 de septiembre de 2008. sorry but i hope you can reed that, aniway see the video is in english and is relevant. i am "fero" in spanish wikipedia —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.255.34.237 (talk) 21:47, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Gracias. --Tenmei (talk) 18:04, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Pres. Sarkozsy's speech in French, English and Spanish is available here. --Tenmei (talk) 15:33, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

the nominal gdp is the same Spain didn't surpass Canada they're both between 1430 and 1450 billion dollars. has anyone looked at their gdp per capita, oil resources, and exports ? Canada exports almost 2 times more than Spain and has 10-15 million less people with the same nominal gdp. having the 2nd largest oil reserves in the world, one of the best nuclear programs in the world it is a top 8 country. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.224.156.129 (talk) 11:58, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

You are simply worng mate. See below. Walky. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.175.249.250 (talk) 11:41, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

the difference in nominal gdp is within an acceptable margin of error. That's not enough to overcome the other categories that Canada is a lot higher in.

Nominal GDP doesn't have all that much significance in a context such as this. If you want to compare economies, do so on a PPP (Purchasing Power Parity) basis, not nominally. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.193.145.124 (talk) 22:31, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

With a G-2 Summit between the Fed and the ECB it would be enough.

There can be two kinds of Summits:

1. The G-2: FED and ECB.

2. G-14 including all the main economic powers in the World. Just for talk. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.36.210.54 (talk) 06:51, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

It's 2011, and I think you should eat your words. ECB is shooting blanks to salvage Europe from another Lehnman type disaster. LOL — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.7.2.108 (talk) 02:39, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

The spain controversy is very much downplayed in this article. Spain is the 8th economic power in the world, before Canada, and here you have some links that show the controversy:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Top_Headlines/Spain_demands_seat_at_G8_finance_crisis_summit/rssarticleshow/3625529.cms

http://www.france24.com/en/20081021-spain-demands-seat-finance-crisis-summit

http://www.nasdaq.com/aspxcontent/NewsStory.aspx?cpath=20081021%5CACQDJON200810211312DOWJONESDJONLINE000572.htm&&mypage=newsheadlines&title=Spanish%20PM%20Demands%20Spain%20Has%20Seat%20At%20Financial%20Crisis%

http://www.todayonline.com/articles/282770.asp

In fact it is all over the net.

how does replacing Canada (that has a nominal gdp 99.6 % as big as Spain's) with a country that isn't a major world trading nation, has fewer fortune 500 companies, less raw materials, a smaller stock market, a nominal gdp per capita 26.5 % smaller, make sense ? the US is the source of the world crisis and Canada trades more with the US than China and Japan combined. Canada's banks also own a lot of US banks. The only way Spain should be there is if it is the G9. If there is only the G8 Spain can't be there because Canada is more important. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.224.156.129 (talk) 09:39, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

And here you have the list of countries and real size of their economies at current exchange rates:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)

Spain has surpassed Canada according to all organization, so this issue should be dealt with more properly here.

And in terms of per capita income at PPP it has even surpassed countries like Italy, France and Japan, according to the CIA World Factbook, that gives the following values:

Spain 33600 US dollars. France 32600 US dollars. Italy 30900 US dollars. Japan 33500 US dollars.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

So, the com bination of high per capita income and 8th largest economy is being an enbarrassement for the G8 and there is speculation that the US, that is Bush, is boycotting Spain becasue of Rodriguez Zapatero, Spanish Prime Minister, in the Irak war. Otherwise the present situation seems difficult to understand. Walky. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.175.249.250 (talk) 11:29, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Taking into account that Argentina (not very friend of Bush) and Turkey will be in the Summit... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.36.211.232 (talk) 02:38, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

You got it. Just compare those economies with Spain. A d on top of all those figures, Spain is the 3rd largest international investor. See:

how does Spain compare to Canada in exports, trade, gdp per capita, billionaires, resources, largest trading partners, nominal gdp ?

all the G8 members are top 9 world exporters Spain is not in the top 10. Canada has a higher gdp per capita than all the largest economies except the US and maybe the UK. Spain's nominal gdp is .4 % larger margin of error could be .5 %. that's not large enough to overcome Spain's shortcomings in gdp per capita, exports, world trade partners (Canada trades more with the US than China and Japan added together). Canada has more fortune 500 companies, the Toronto stock exchange is bigger than the Madrid stock exchange. how is about 20 billion dollars difference in nominal gdp out of 1400-1500 billion dollar economies enough to make one country's economy more important than the other ? the g8 countries are top 10 world traders why would they replace the most important trade partner of the US that is top 8-9 world export nation and has a gdp per capita over 40 thousand dollars with another country based only on a difference in nominal gdp of 0.4 % ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.224.156.129 (talk) 09:17, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

http://www.ottawaregion.com/media_lib/Doing_Business_Archive_Presentations/Doing_Business_in_Spain_Legal_Environment.pdf

So, the US (Bush) position here is getting more and more embarassing. Walky. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.16.19.122 (talk) 12:55, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

it exports 70 % more, has a nominal gdp per capita 36 % bigger, a bigger stock exchange, more raw materials, maybe a deeper penetration of the US banking industry.

the only country that exports more than Canada that's not in the g8 is the netherlands (nominal gdp is about half of canada's).

market value of the 5 largest banks in both countries spain about 212 billion dollars canada about 195 billion dollars market value of fortune 500 insurance companies spain 10.33 billion dollars canada about 94 billion dollars

canada us trade from january to august 2008416.02 billion dollars eu us trade from january to august 2008 442.774 billion dollars.

almost every other economic indicator gives canada a big edge. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.224.156.129 (talk) 10:37, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

This is not about the exports, as Canada practically trades with just one country - the US. Most of the exports are raw materials anyway, like a developing country. Canada practically has no industry - everything comes from the US, from blenders to toothpaste. Spain influences the world way more than Canada, it is a gate to Latin America. Spain 'poorer' than Canada? Dream on -- after your high taxes are deducted from your salaries, we keep more cash in our pockets here in Spain. Spain is the 3rd largest foreign investor in the world, and our streets don't have potholes. Sorry, it's just how it is... Canada is culturally insignificant.... A 2nd rate USA, at most. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.175.236.10 (talk) 18:54, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

'''''''''''''''''' Spain Economy is bigger according to all world Organizations. Not necessary to analyse it step by step: Spain is the 3rd largest world investor, 5th largest car producer etc. All this is not necessary. The economy is just larger. Jan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.175.249.250 (talk) 13:16, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

............................................

would a country with a nominal gdp per capita of 33099 be large enough for you to say it's wealthier than a country with a nominal gdp per capita of 33000 but an economy a lot bigger ?

0.3 % difference could be overcome in a month. the other categories like exports are important. Canada is 9 Spain is 16 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.224.156.129 (talk) 01:58, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

.......................... Come on, Spainś economy is now larger. Anyway, the point is not that Canada should be out, but Spain also in. Jan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.175.249.250 (talk) 11:30, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

what's more significant Canada's 70 % edge in exports 36 % edge in nominal gdp per capita and 30 % larger market capital of their largest banks and insurance companies or Spain's 0.3 % edge in nominal gdp ?

...............................................

You have a big problem with the fact that Spain has actually surpassed Canada's economy in nominal GDP, which is the basis for choosing countries in the G7. The G8 is the G7 plus Russia. I hope you can live with it. Probably things will come back just to normal, because Spain has been one of the richest countries in the world during most of its history (not all of its history, of course), and we are talking at least 3000 thousand years, when the first Spanish big city was founded, in spite of all the cheap Anglo propaganda, that is already a couple of centuries old. Historically, Culturally and Economically it has an unparalleled heritage. Just to mention one example Spain is one of the countries in the world with the most world heritage sites of cultural value recognized by the international community (actually the second of the world with 40 sites, behind Italy with 41), and this is the result and legacy of maximum civilization and affluence.

See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_World_Heritage_Sites_based_on_State_Parties

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Total_WHS.png

Spain is also one of the countries in the world that has influenced it the most (by the way it discovered America and opened the road to the world such as we know it today).

See.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_empire

And Spain has created two of the largest world languages.

See.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_language

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_language

(Yeah, Portuguese is also a Spanish language. It was born in Northern Spain and it is one of the five official languages of Spain under the name of Galician, although a lot of Galician nationalists do not want to admit it)

And I could continue with all this gibberish or just state that according to all world organizations, Spain, in 2008, in spite of almost half a century of economic and political isolation due to the fascist Franco dictatorship, is the 8th largest economy in the world and has surpassed Canada in nominal GDP.

And to finish, here you have a cut and paste piece of what the CIA world fact book 2008 has to say about the Spanish economy.

A peaceful transition to democracy following the death of dictator Francisco FRANCO in 1975, and rapid economic modernization (Spain joined the EU in 1986) have given Spain one of the most dynamic economies in Europe and made it a global champion of freedom.

See it here.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/sp.html#Econ

And of course Spain is not perfect.

I hope you can live with it. Jan.

nominal gdp canada 1.43 trillion spain 1.46 trillion

per capita canada 43000 spain 33000

exports canada over 400 billion spain over 250 billion

canada is the bigger economy. there isn't really a difference in nominal gdp there is in the other categories. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.224.156.129 (talk) 21:49, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

All the categories put together account for the final size of the economy. Get some basics before coming here cherry picking information that ends up being just gibberish.

And this is the size of both economies:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)

2007 International monetary fund: Spain 1,439,983. Canada 1,436,086.

2007 World Bank: 1,429,226. Canada 1,326,376.

2007 CIA World Factbook. 1,439,000. Canada 1,432,000.

So, the Spanish economy is bigger when you put together all services and goods produced in both countries, that is what the GDP is all about, my friend, not only the figures that you like to cherry pick. So, it does not matter how much to want to go around it, and since you just repeat yourself and show little knowledge of economy this is my last response. Bye. Jan.

that shows that the cia factbook canada has a bigger economy than the world bank data for spain.

there isn't a significant difference in gdp cia factbook and monetary fund have canada within .4 % of spain. per capita gdp is a lot higher exports are a lot higher largest trading partners canada is very important to the country that every other country depends on. the little difference in per capita gdp isn't enough to convince anyone spain is the country the largest economies are more concerned about. canada is one of the largest energy producers has one of the best nuclear programs and has more fortune 500 companies than russia, italy, and spain. its largest city has the 7th best skyline in the world, had at one time the 2 tallest buildings in the world, has a larger stock market than madrid, is one the most multicultural cities in the world and is bigger than madrid (the horseshoe area around toronto has a gdp and population almost the same as chicago). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.224.156.129 (talk) 20:03, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

when you take canada's information from the cia factbook and spain's from the world bank. when the economies are that close neither should be considered larger than the other. the other economic data favours canada. g8 is known first as the richest countries and second as most powerful (that's why china and no african country is in it). canada gdp per capita over 43000 spain gdp per capita over 32000. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.224.156.129 (talk) 20:22, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

You must be of hard understanding. Spain per capita income is among the highest in the world. According to the Cia fact book 2007, even higher than France´s or Japan on a PPP basis at 33600 (if you knew about economics you would know that Per Capita on a PPP basis is the best way to measure the level of life in a country). For several years it has been creating more than half of the jobs in the European Union (And the European Union is the largest Economy in the world), it has the second largest immigration rate in the world after the US (and it is much smaller than the US), it is the 3rd largest world investor and a long etc, and most importantly, on nominal GDP (if you knew something about economics you would know that Nominal GDP is the best way to measure the weight of a country in the international economy)its economy is larger than Canada, so stick that fact up your beep. And get used to it, because Spain has been on an upwards trend for more than 15 years and this distance is probably going to continue getting bigger in the future. So, continue freezing in that country of yours and bang your head against the wall if you do not like reality. Jan.

compared to Canada Spain's per capita gdp is not high. canada's is 36 % higher and the rest of canada's economy is either a lot bigger or almost the same. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.224.156.129 (talk) 08:28, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Anyway, look at the heading of this section and look at the way this user likes to present and manilupate information. He must be a sick person, but becasue someone is sick it does not mean he can manipulate wiki. Jan.

how many g8 countries are not top 10 export countries ? how many of them have stock markets that are smaller than stock markets from other countries ? how many of them are not important energy producers ? how many of them have a nominal gdp that's less than 1 % bigger than a country not in the G8 ? when countries have the same nominal gdp what other things will be important to consider ? energy, trade, gdp per capita, billionaires, nuclear energy. in all those categories Canada is better than Spain.

I read somewhere that invitation to Egypt to join G8+ caused questions from UAE and Saudi Arabia about the choice. The latter is already a member of G20 and the economy of UAE exceeds Russia (or they claim so). Thoughts, links? I have nothing against Egypt, by the way. Interested if the expansion is going to happen. --Atitarev (talk) 23:58, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

This is unlikely. The G8 expands only very cautiously, and Egypt is not a stable country. Djembe (talk) 23:55, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

The G7 meets without Russia now. It should never have been included in the first place because it is not a democracy. That is one of the requirements. That is why China is not part of the G7. If they let non-democracies in China would have been invited to join , not Russia. The G7 let Russia in to try to persuade it to move more toward democracy and because the some EU members ( particularly Germany ) do what the Russians tell them to do to keep the Russian gas flowing. Because Russia moved even more rapidly toward dictatorship and now can not be considered anything else the G7 meets without them. So , why when you do a search for G7 , G8 comes up ? No one has fixed this yet ? If no one else will fix this I will but don't have time right now. maybe no one does ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Macer1 (talk • contribs) 19:41, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Go with your anti-Russian rhetoric somewhere else, Wikipedia is not for propaganda but for facts. --Atitarev (talk) 09:14, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, Atitarev. To be clear, again, there is a G7 which deals with finance without Russia, and a G8 which deals with everything else. Russia is an important contributor to global governance and has significant energy resources. The St Petersburg summit showed then-President Putin put great effort into innovating the accessibility of the summit to the media through daily dialogue and civil society (through Civil 8). Djembe (talk) 23:58, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

According to the Monetary Fund as well as the World Bank ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal) or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP) ) Spain is the eighth economic potency in the world, slightly richer than Canada, richer than Russia and even richer than Italy in terms of GDP per capita according to the European Union, all of them members of the G8.

Some reasons to be a member of the G7/8 are the economy, the political influence, the military influence (this explains why Russia is in) and to be a democracy (this explains why China is out).

When it comes to have influence in the world there is no doubt that Spain is important (probably even more than Canada or Italy):
- The current economical, cultural and political influence of Spain in all its old colonies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Empire), about all in Latin America, is unquestionable and incomparable with a country like Canada or Italy.
- Spain is the 3rd largest foreign investor in the world. In the list of largest companies of the world (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_companies_by_revenue) Spain has four companies (Telefonica, Repsol, Banco Santander and Banco BBVA), on the other hand Canada has just one (Royal Bank of Canada).
- Spain is a responsible foreign country which is increasing its official development assistance to the developing countries, currently 0,41% of GNI 5,103 mill $ (http://www.globalissues.org/article/35/us-and-foreign-aid-assistance#ForeignAidNumbersinChartsandGraphs), more than Canada or Italy.
- Spain is a very active NATO member and it’s currently part of several military missions in the world in order to defend security and freedom (Afghanistan, Congo, Lebanon, Kosovo, Bosnia-Herzegovina and Chad http://www.mde.es/contenido.jsp?id_nodo=4367&&&keyword=&auditoria=F ). Here an example to see the importance of the Spanish army; few people know that only nine countries in the world have some aircraft carrier ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_carriers_in_service ) , Spain is one of them (not Canada, Germany nor Japan), an aircraft carrier is absolutely necessary to keep a war far away from your territory.

Some detractors of Spain says there are enough members from Europe in the G8, moreover Spain is a member of the European Union so it’s somehow represented by the EU right now. However, the EU can’t vote in the G8 summits and unfortunately up to now each country in Europe has their own opinion so Spain should be in, otherwise only the European Union should be in the G8 (without UK, France, Germany and Italy).
In the past some G8 European members said that Spain was receiving funds from the European Union so it had no sense Spain would be in a club of rich countries, but since some years ago, when countries like Poland or Hungary joined the EU, Spain has lost those funds, and now Spain has to contribute to help economically those new eastern countries.

There are three “English” countries in the G8, however there isn't any “Spanish” country in the G8 meanwhile the Spanish is the third most important language in the world (after Chinese and English).

Now, when the last G20 summit (G8 + emerging countries) has taken place in Washington to deal with the financial crisis, Spain has had to lobby on its European neighbours in order to be guest to the summit and it would be an injustice if the G8 is not enlarged to Spain so as to create a new G9. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Juanrcm (talk • contribs) 15:17, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
_____________________________________

You fail to understand what the G8 is. It is not a top league of anything; there is no right to join, automatic or not; there is not a way to qualify (like athletes qualify for the Olympics). Think of it as a club. The members decide who joins (in effect the USA), so it doesn't matter if Spain or any other country outshines existing members; if you ain't invited, you ain't in and that's it. Emeraude (talk) 18:46, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

_____________________________________

I see your point, as I've typed the G8 is a club of rich countries, and as in every select club its members don't want more members, because the more members the club has, the less power its members have. This doesn't contradict the fact Spain deserves to join that club.--Juanrcm (talk) 21:23, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

_____________________________________
canada doesn't just have one company. The value of all it's fortune 500 banks (5 banks bank of nova scotia, royal bank, bank of montreal, toronto dominion bank, cibc) and insurance companies is higher than Spain's. Canada's top 5 banks value is about 195 billion dollars Spain's top 5 banks have a value of about 212 billion dollars. Canada fortune 500 insurance companies have a value of about 94 billion dollars Spain's fortune 500 insurance companies have a value of about 10 billion dollars. Canada has one of the largest aircraft companies in the world bombardier. Canada's gdp per capita is the 2nd highest out of the world's 10 biggest economies. Canada's exports are almost the same as the UK. Spain's exports are about 60-65 %. Canada has more fortune 500 companies than Italy, Russia, and Spain. Canada has one of the best nuclear programs in the world. They helped China and India start their nuclear programs. Canada has a bigger stock exchange. nominal gdp is not smaller they are both between 1.4 and 1.5 trillion dollars. The difference in gdp per capita is about 36 % the difference in nominal gdp is about 1 %. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.224.156.129 (talk) 11:43, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
_____________________________________

Some figures are better for Canada and others for Spain, most of the times it depends on the source. The Monetary Fund and the World Bank are independent institutions and very respectable as well, and both of them say that Spain is the 8th economy and Canada is the 9th, that’s all. About the nuclear topic, Spain decided some years ago not to build more nuclear factories because of its risks, They preferred to increase the renewable energy production. Now, the biggest producer of this type of ecological energy in the world is a spanish company called Iberdrola.--Juanrcm (talk) 00:33, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

the difference in size does matter because in 2003 Spain got back the 8th place from Canada and a had a nominal gdp a little bigger like it did last year but by 2006 Canada's ecnomoy was bigger again. until one country has a gdp a lot bigger neither should be admitted into the g8 based on nominal gdp alone. Canada makes some of the best nuclear reactors and has the second oldest nuclear technology program. china and india started their nuclear programs with canada's nuclear reactors.

Enough now. This page is for discussing the ARTICLE, not for debates on who should or should not be in the G8. For that, go to a forum somewhere, but don't do it here. Emeraude (talk) 17:25, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't believe it is justified to say that it could be called the G9. It's not up to us to define what to call it; it isn't the G9. Thus, the sentence is inaccurate and potentially misleading. The EU/EC doesn't host summits so has a unique, but different, degree of membership when compared to the full G8 member countries. Djembe (talk) 01:38, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

but lost that position in 2006 to canada. that's how it has been for a lot of the last decade both countries switch positions every couple years because their economies are very close in size. why didn't the g8 replace spain with canada in 2003 ? for the same reason it won't in the near future because their nominal gdp's are too close to call and until one distances itself from the other they will probably switch positions again. all the other key economic indicators (nuclear energy, trade, oil, energy production, gdp per capita, influence in the us market, number of billionaires) canada is a lot bigger. reuters is owned by a canadian company. canada contributes more to the un.

This is irrelevant. 67.193.145.124 (talk) 22:42, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

g8 member facts have references. if the endnotes aren't properly done then you either use the reference to correct that or don't do anything.

Spain once overtook Canada's economy a few years back. Canada overtook it again. There is barely a margin of difference between the two countries, and has the potential to change at any time. Canada is in the G8, Spain is not. Besides, there is more to it then just 'Who has the biggest GDP'. It's more of a club of those who have the most influence. I saw one girl, I think 'Jan' was her name, listing useless statistics like 'which countries speak Spanish'. Countries in South America may speak Spanish, but Canada put far more foreign investment in them than Spain. I'm not bashing Spain, I'm just bringing some clear headed thinking over some of the nationalism that seems to foster around the issue of 'Who's bigger and better?" Lemniwinks (talk) 02:30, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

I really don’t understand what’s the problem with Spain. Nobody is saying that Canada shouldn’t be in the G8, but Spain can be in the G8 in a near future because of the evidences.

“Spain once overtook Canada's economy a few years back. Canada overtook it again.”

It isn’t entirely true. In the 1990s Spain and Canada exchanged the 8th position twice, and in 2005 Spain overtook Canada once again. Right now Spain is in the 8th position, Canada is in the 9th position. (Here’s the evidence:)

“Canada put far more foreign investment in South America than Spain.”

FALSE, Where did you read that?. Spain is the second largest foreign investor in Latin America, the first one is EEUU. In the list of largest foreign invertors in the world Spain is in the 6th position, Canada in the 11th. (Here’s the evidence: ) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Solemb (talk • contribs) 14:43, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

According to the World Bank, in 2012 Canada's net outflows of FDI (Foreign Direct Investment) were 3.1% of GDP. For Spain in the same year, only 0.4%. So even if what you say about Spain investing more in Latin America, it's moot. The fact remains Spain is not in the G8 - and likely never will be. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.193.145.124 (talk) 22:38, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

I have removed the paragraph as original research:

The international press features recurring news stories about the G8, which refers to a "group of eight" composed of nine members.<:ref>European Union: EU and the G8</ref> As the G6 evolved across the decades, something unforeseen happened in the way the group is conventionally perceived. The 2008 summit of world leaders in Hokkaido, Japan was universally identified as the "34th G8 summit;" however, this ordinal number implies a process of counting backwards through the years, conflating what might have been clear distinctions.<:ref>Japanese Ministry of Foreign Affairs (MOFA): List of summits, 1-25; G7/8 summits.</ref>

The first link is the front page of the EU page on their delegation to Japan. The second link is a "EU and the G8", and explicitly states, "The European Commission is a unique supranational organisation – not a sovereign Member State – hence the name G8 “Group of Eight Nations”, rather than G9." The third and final link is a list of summits, with no commentary about numbering whatsoever. In short, nothing in these refs supports the central assertion of "something unforeseen" and "a process of counting backwards through the years, conflating what might have been clear distinctions". I have removed the paragraph as original research. - BanyanTree 02:00, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

I drafted this dubious paragraph. When I wrote it, I didn't construe my contribution as unhelpful original research; but I do see the point Banyan Tree is making. In this context, please see Conflation#Conventional conflations.

If Banyan Tree is correct in pointing out that I've misconstrued WP:OR in the paragraph above, then I worry a bit that my rationale in the following may be flawed as well? --Tenmei (talk) 04:01, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

G8+1? members? participants? leaders

The beginnings of this sub-section thread were copied from Lucy-marie's talk page and from Tenmei's talk page.

See also above -- Talk:G8#EU ...?

See also above -- Talk:G8#G8+? ...?

Lucy-marie -- I disagree with your most recent edit to 29th G8 summit; and I would dispute similar edits in articles about the other G8 summits. Last year, I thought your views had merit, of course; but since that time, I've researched this subject more fully.

As I see it, our small dispute is limited to your questions about how best to characterize the participation of the European Union's chief official? Perhaps we can find a way to work together to move beyond this temporary impasse? --Tenmei (talk) 01:50, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Tenmei -- In my view it is OR and un-attributed to any individuals or group of individuals. I also think it is incredibly unsightly to have + on a separate line all of its own. I think that The individual members countries should be in the list of members and the EU should be grouped with the other international organisations, that is because it does not take part in all areas of the discussions, namely the political discussions. In my view only member countries which take part in all areas of the talks should be listed in the permanent G8 members section. the rest are just invitees, no matter how long standing or accepted that they will turn up is.--Lucy-marie (talk) 23:32, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

File:G8-okinawa-2000-01.jpg

File:G8-genes-2001-02.jpg

File:EVIAN famille4-2003.jpg

Lucy-marie -- Our disagreement needs to be examined more closely.

I understand your arguable point-of-view about the "G8+" orthography; but in our Wikipedia context, the following section from 35th G8 summit would seem to be on-point because the Italian government website uses the "G8+":

The Italian presidency of the G8 varies the summit's working methods and the numbers of participants depending on the subject under consideration. This "variable geometry structure" diverges from the traditional G8 format. The involvement of different actors at different stages goes further than the idea of a simple "G8+?" After an initial meeting of the "historic core" leaders of what is understood as the traditional G8), the agenda will broaden and the number of participants will be expanded accordingly. The leaders of G8 countries and G5 countries will be joined by a delegation from Egypt and a representative group of African countries.<:ref name="frattini1">Frattini, Franco. "Summits of the ‘big’ countries growing in importance but the G8 continues to play a strategic role," Il Messaggero. April 2, 2009.</ref>

I construe this use of "G8+" by Italian Foreign Minister Franco Frattini as relevant in justifying its use in our Wikipedia context.

As for your other point, I would have thought the added in-line citations would be sufficient to address your objections ...?

You allowed the following sentence to stand unchanged:

• A. In addition, the President of the European Commission has been formally included in summits since 1981.<:ref name="reuters_what">Reuters: "Factbox: The Group of Eight: what is it?", July 3, 2008.</ref>

However, you deleted the following:

• B. The composition of the G8 summit is a perennial topic. The G8 summits after 1997 decided to make the President of the European Commission a permanently welcome participant in all meetings and decision-making, which means that this G8 summit has nine essential participants.^[1]4
• C. * European Union - President Jacques Santer<:ref name="ec1">"EU and the G8". European Commission. Retrieved 2007-09-25.</ref>

I would propose restoring what you have deleted at 23rd G8 summit et al.

In trying to figure out your point-of-view, I wondered if you might be placing too much emphasis on the commonly-encountered phrase "member of the G8"? An equally conventional way to describe the summits uses the term "G8 participant" or "G8 leader". Regardless of how you parse the concept of "member" or "participant" or "leader", the fact remains that the EU presidents have been a consistent attendees in the G8 summits since 1976.

In practical terms, I see is as a mistake to remove this element from the composition of the summit discussions; and in wiki-logic terms, I would have thought the posted citations provided adequate support for "G8+1" in this series of articles. If not, why not?

• Compare leaders at the 24th G8 summit, e.g., the NINE "Leaders profiles" in official website (1998)?

Bottom line: Each summit produces a traditional "family photo" and each one has included the EU leader since 1976.

For these reasons, I would want to undo your recent edits. If you still think my views are wrong, please help me understand how I'm failing to grasp something essential. --Tenmei (talk) 04:10, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

I say just include them in the international organisations section. Do not add the perennial issue stuff as that is OR. As it is perennial issue considered by who? and since when? The only difference between the EU and say the WTO and the UN as international organisations is they have been invited for a longer period of time. If you want to explain the attendance of the EU at summits do on it the main G8 page rather than including the same questionable statement on each summit page. Please if you do explain the EU attendance do not use weasel words like the has been "considered" a "perennial" issue as these words impenetrable and un-attributed. I have no problem including the EU and other such organisations, just not with individual sovereign member states, but in their own international organisations section.--Lucy-marie (talk) 20:45, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Lucy-marie -- In general, your point-of-view is logically coherent. It takes on new meaning for me now that I'm re-examining my writing in light of WP:Synthesis. The conjunction of your comments and those of BanyanTree cased me to re-visit WP:OR several times; and I begin to have a glimmer of an idea about what to do next. You narrowly construe this policy statement -- perhaps too narrowly; however, your analysis does suggest a potentially useful "road map" for moving beyond the impasse represented by Talk:G8#EU and Talk:G8#G8+? above. Your response gives me something to mull over ....

In specific, I don't understand "perennial" as a wiki-weasel word; but I'll mull that over too. --Tenmei (talk) 22:19, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Perennial is only a weasel word in this context not usually in general.--Lucy-marie (talk) 00:54, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Lucy-marie -- Rather than continuing to convince you to set aside your objections across the entire array of G8 summits, let me focus only on the up-coming 35th G8 summit which, as you know, is organized by the Italians. The Italian government appears to perceive the G8 in a manner which is not congruent with your viewpoint, as I understand it.

In anticipation of the G8 Agriculture Ministers' Meeting on April 19, a website has been created -- Home page. Reading across the top of the Home page from left to right:

• The "G8" webpage -- includes the EU along with Italy, Canada, France, Germany, Japan, Russian Federation, United Kingdom, United States of America and the Czech Presidency in Office of the EU

• The "G8 Agricultural Ministers' meeting" webpage -- identifies attendees as the Ministers of Agriculture of the G8 Countries (Italy, Canada, France, Germany, Japan, Russian Federation, United Kingdom, USA), the Vice Minister of agriculture of the Czech Republic in his capacity as Vice President in Office of the EU Council, the EU Commissioner for Agriculture Mariann Fischer Boel and the Ministers of Agriculture of: Brazil, China, India, Mexico, South Africa and Argentina, Australia and Egypt. African Union, FAO, UN High Level Task Force on Food Security, IFAD, OECD, World Bank and WFP have also been invited ....

• The "International organizations" webpage -- does not include the EU along with the African Union, FAO, UN High Level Task Force on Food Security, IFAD, OECD, World Bank, WFP

• The "Programme" webpage -- reiterates the above distinctions amongst the participants which are inconsistent with your views as I understand them, e.g.,

• G8: Italy, Canada, France, Germany, Japan, Russia, United Kingdom, United States of America, European Commission, Czech Presidency of the EU
• G5: Brasil, China, India, Mexico, South Africa
• Argentina, Australia, Egypt
• International Organization: African Union, High Level UN Task Force on Global Food Security, IFAD, OECD, World Bank, WFP

On this basis, I feel justified in moving the EU to a position in the article which I suspect will seem troubling to you. Can you explain why I should not conform the organization of the article in ways consistent with Italian websites developed by the Italian government in 2009.

The threads developed on the talk page above show that you are not alone in your view about how to handle the EU in the G8 context, but the overwhelming offers of evidence seem to be presented by those who disagree with you.

Are you able or willing to provide credible sources which help explain how the Italian government could have been so wrong in creating these web pages?

Instead of proving anything, this diff aims to disprove the point-of-view you have chosen to espouse, i.e, that, in the context of the Wikipedia article about the upcoming G8 summit at La Maddalena, the EU is just another international organization, indistinguishable from the African Union, High Level UN Task Force on Global Food Security, IFAD, OECD, World Bank, WFP ...? --Tenmei (talk) 04:02, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Lucy-marie -- On a separate matter, I have the impression that you object to the use of the term "plus" and/or the symbol "+" ...? In that context, I notice a recent interview of the German Foreign Minister in Der Zeit uses the "plus"

I saw early on that the G8 had lost much of its legitimacy. Nowadays we have to do more to involve states like China and India, Brazil and South Africa – as well as the Muslim world. I therefore proposed a "G8 plus 8". The fact that the G20 is now tackling the consequences of the global financial and economic crisis is in line with this logic." -- see German Federal Foreign Office: "Interview given by Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier to the "ZEIT" newspaper," April 8, 2009.

Does this small example help you to re-think your objections? --Tenmei (talk) 04:16, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

References

1. [1]

"The 7 July 2005 London bombings were timed to coincide with the 31st G8 summit in Scotland." Someone knows this as fact do they? (London and Gleneagles are in differnt countries some 450 miles apart). Someone editing Wikipedia must have been part of the planning . It can't be one of the dead Muslims doing the edits, regardless they are vinidcated by some of the bombs being under the trains - I'm starting to smell a rat! —Preceding unsigned comment added by JaseFace (talk • contribs) 19:07, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

G8 AND HIS BATTLE ACES —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.165.232.209 (talk) 02:45, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

This section is interesting, maybe it could put things in perspective for China. For example: largest population, rank in GDP, etc.

But mostly, I think the sentence "China is the second most important country in the world to addressing a wide variety of global problems" should be changed.

This is obviously very subjective. Some would say it is the 1st. Some would ask who is the 1st. I think it is better to go with measurable facts (GDP, export, stock market value, assets, etc.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.217.138.194 (talk) 15:57, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, looking at a few key issues, China may be the most important country in the world (e.g. solving the North Korea issue). It is by far the largest consumer of a large number of commodities. Etc Hence G-2. Though, overall, USA remains the strongest power by a large margin. At worst, China is the second most important country in the world. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.69.60.7 (talk) 12:11, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

• Commentary: Can the Caribbean rely on the G20? - By Ronald Sanders, Published on Friday, October 2, 2009, CaribbeanNetNews Online

CaribDigita (talk) 15:22, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

There are plausible reasons for modifying the navbox templates at the bottom of the page at G8. An opportunity for discussion needs to be part of any process which precedes change. Three arguable improvements are:

A. Combining two of the current navboxes at the bottom of the page?

• template name coould be {{G8}}—Template:G8? At present, this is a redirect to Template:Db-g8, one of the Speedy deletion templates
• new template would be similar to {{APEC}}—Template:Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation
• this would mean removing {{G8 nations}}—Template:G8 nations?
• this would mean removing {{G8 summits}}—Template:G8 summits?

B. Deleting the current leaders navbox?

This is a poor subject for a navbox because leaders change irregularly over time. The functional utility of this navbox is not greater or better than one which only shows member nations.

• this would mean removing {{Current G8 Leaders}}—Template:Current G8 Leaders?
• this would mean removing {{G8-Foreign}}—Template:G8-Foreign?
• this would mean removing {{G8-Finance}}—Template:G8-Finance?
• this would mean removing {{G8-Defense}}—Template:G8-Defense?
• this would mean removing {{G8-Justice}}—Template:G8-Justice?
• this would mean removing {{G8-Interior}}—Template:G8-Interior?

C.Standardize/harmonize to "G8" without hyphen? "G7" and "G6" without hyphens?

Only G-15 must have a hyphen, consistent with the group's official web site?

D. Perhaps decision-making may be helped by comparing an array of similar groups and templates?

What is the best next step for this article? for similar articles? --Tenmei (talk) 23:07, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

I have corrected the table identifying the venue for the 1976 summit as Dorado, Puerto Rico. The summit was held at the now defunct Dorado Beach Hotel in the municipality of Dorado, which is a couple of towns (Toa Baja and Cataño) away from San Juan and is not even considered a suburb of the capital city of San Juan. President Ford, the summit's host, for example, did not even set foot in San Juan since Air Force One landed at what was then called San Juan International Airport, actually located in Carolina, PR, and was then flown over San Juan on Marine One to the grounds of the Dorado Beach Hotel, then a Rockefeller Family-owned Rockresort, which he chose as the locale in the United States for this second summit. Pr4ever (talk) 10:58, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Pr4ever -- Let's agree that the facts are exactly as presented in your diff. Then WP:V would suggest that your edit needs to be reverted -- not because it's wrong, but because it is not verified by a reliable source. In contrast, please consider the relevant inline citations embedded in the introductory paragraph of 2nd G7 summit:

The 2nd G7 Summit was held at San Juan, Puerto Rico between June 27 and 28, 1976.<:ref name="j-mofa1">Japan, Ministry of Foreign Affairs (MOFA): Summit Meetings in the Past; although this article is named "2nd G7 summit" because it is the second in a series of summits which will become continuing, it is actually the first time that the G7 meets</ref> The venue for the summit meetings was Dorado Beach Resort, which is near San Juan, Puerto Rico.<:ref>Shabecoff, Philip. "Go-Slow Policies Urged by Leaders in Economic Talks; Closing Statement Calls for Sustained Growth Coupled With Curbs on Inflation; Ford's Aims Realized; 7 Heads of Government Also Agree to Consider a New Body to Assist Italy Co-Slow Economic Policies Urged by 7 Leaders," New York Times. June 29, 1976; excerpt, "SAN JUAN, P.R., June 28 President Ford and six other leaders of industrial democracies announced here today that they had agreed to pursue the objective of sustained economic growth.... The leaders met at the palm fringed Dorado Beach Resort near here."</ref>

A verifying inline citation has been added to this location cell in the table. --Tenmei (talk) 15:12, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

I have found several reliable sources that attest to the fact that the summit was held in Dorado, which is separated from San Juan by the municipalities of Guaynabo, Cataño, followed by Toa Baja. The Dorado Beach Hotel site is 13 miles away from San Juan's border with Guaynabo, a not insignificant distance in an island only 100 miles long and 35 miles wide.

For example, the US Embassy in Japan correctly places the summit in Dorado:

http://aboutusa.japan.usembassy.gov/e/jusa-usj-chronology.html

An AP story quoted in the following link also correctly places the summit in Dorado:

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-21114.html

Nobody in Puerto Rico would confuse or substitute San Juan for Dorado, which are as far away from each other as Yardley, PA is from Princeton, NJ, for example.

I would suggest that the name of the venue in the table should be switched back to Dorado with the US Embassy in Japan and AP story as more than adequate bscking for the factually correct name of the venue, no matter how many mistaken sources may back the incorrect reference to San Juan, where not one single summit meeting was held and which host nation President Ford did not even visit. Pr4ever (talk) 03:43, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Pr4ever -- Yes. Your verifying citations help to resolve any questions. The relevant articles have now been corrected; and they are clear. Each explains that Dorado, Puerto Rico was the venue for the 2nd G7 summit. See

• G8
• 2nd G7 summit
• Dorado, Puerto Rico

This thread is a good example of cooperation which produces a good result. --Tenmei (talk) 07:36, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree. Thank you very much! Pr4ever (talk) 11:08, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

The G7 is still active (in contrast to the older G6). The G8 is separate from it - like G20 is separate from G8. Maybe G8 will be succeeded by G20 (like G6 was succeeded by G7), but this is not done yet.

Currently the article is written as if G8 succeeded G7, instead of supplemented it. Most of the history section should be moved to G7 (as it is about G6 and G7) - here should remain only the part about the creation of G8. Alinor (talk) 11:01, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Look up G7 in Wiktionary, the free dictionary.

Look up G8 in Wiktionary, the free dictionary.

Alinor -- Please reconsider what you mean by "group of seven." Could it be that what you perceive as a problem arises because there are more than one ways in which G7 is used in verifiable reliable sources?

Please join me in re-examining the this issue in the following context:

Can you think of a way to clarify the problems you see. This can be a helpful step in a constructive direction? I look forward to working with you to mitigate the problem you have identified. --Tenmei (talk) 17:08, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Alinor -- Let me try using a different approach. You correctly observed that "the article is written as if G8 succeeded G7 ...." Yes, the G8 did succeed the G7 if you construe the term in the context of summits attended by heads of state since 1975.

In the context established by Group of Five#20th century G5, a wider perspective emerges. --Tenmei (talk) 03:50, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

OK. If finance ministers meetings and head of states meetings are considered separate - and there isn't a G7 head of state meeting (without Russia) - then the current arrangement is OK - but I think the text should be reworked in a way that this distinction is clear (currently it is written as "for governments", mentiones head of states, but then also adds "G8 ministers also meet throughout the year, such as the G7/8 finance ministers (who meet four times a year), G8 foreign ministers, or G8 environment ministers." - are these ministerial meetings G7 and/or G8 (e.g. there are separate G7 and G8 meetings or some/all are G7-only or G8-only)? Alinor (talk) 14:16, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

I reverted three entirely reasonable edits here and here and here. Was this arguably justified?

Explanation: The French have created a combined G20/G8 website designed in a rectangular format. Among the section choices offered at the top, the G8 section is at the far right.

Although the page design is displayed fully on my rectangular desktop monitor, there is a minor display problem with my older laptop which has a square monitor. In the square format, the G8 option is not immediately visible; and initially, I misunderstood, thinking I'd reached the wrong website.

It seems to me that others may encounter this minor confusion.

IMO, this G8 "home page" is more appropriately displayed in the external links of this specific article, e.g.,

• Good -- see "Everything you want to know on the G8"
• Less good -- see "What exactly is the G20?

I hope to avert any awkward moments similar to the one I experienced. If not, why? Do you see my point? If not, I will try to explain again using different words. --Tenmei (talk) 18:47, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

This issue was addressed and resolved here in 2008.

Consensus may change; and further discussion is needed before disturbing the well-settled status quo. See also Talk:BRICS#Consolidated discussion about flag icons. --Tenmei (talk) 22:34, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Not sure if this is being read as an indicator of the decline of the G8 but;

Putin has cancelled his attendance at the next G8 summit citing general busyness. Quoting from the article; "Mr Putin's first trip abroad could now be to China in early June."

Read on 11, April, 2012.--Senor Freebie (talk) 02:32, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

To move this article forward, there needs to be an explanation as to why the likes of China and South Korea are excluded from the G8. Currently the article focuses on the past, but very little about the present or future of this organisation. With the ECC about to implode and North American economies smouldering to a damp squibs, more should be added (from experts) as to why this organisation is now looking more and more anachronistic in today's political and financial world.31.52.210.174 (talk) 12:18, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

-South Koreas and Chinas growth are heavily slowing down. America had 2% its remarkable being so rich like them while korea grew 1.8% and its a very poor country in comparison to america. Russia, canada and japan are also heavily growing its more than enough to balance europes slow down.--Tollsissac (talk) 02:48, 8 May 2013 (UTC) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29#List

The vast upheavals of that year are the major reason for the G8. No one in the Western block was still there at the end of the year. Wilson had been out of power for four years, and the rest were minor players at the beginning of the year. They needed to get to know each other.Ericl (talk) 23:34, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

i NOTICE THAT THE SENTIMENT HERE IN HIGHLY BIASED.....

Just as in the media.. one side only is addressed... this is not only creates lopsided view but compromised the who;le truth in general.

As for the statement re: russia threatened with dismissal from G8...

this shows a lack of understanding of the membership laws and their implementation...

to sum briefly...

If Russia shows ( proves) a prior violation of g8 member treaty... ( 94  nuke removal treaty  US ,Ukraine ,Russia,  " non interference" signatories)

ie ..that the USA VIOLATED treaty ( non interference) by involvement in ukraine.... basically nuland/pyatt conversation proves it. firstly

 // russia will counter charge USA according to g8 rules.

Since we are all adults here we know USA sponsered and funded this " cookie" revolution it will be hard for them to proceed straight faced.

one thing for sure.....USA some pissed!!!! the revolution they bought with cookies ended up handing crimea to russia on platter for cookies.

NSA greatest intelligence gathering entity on the planet... they can predict events weeks even months ahead..... they just cant predict tomorrow..... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:4C28:194:520:5E26:AFF:FEFE:81DC (talk) 03:35, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

We need to lock the article, since first attempts have been made to jeopardize here.

Using sentences like: "... Russia has been thrown out ..." are far away from being an acceptable tone.

I also propose to suspend the admin who gravely neglect his duty of supervision or deliberately incite their own political opinion by not deleting this commit. (WMN83) 143.93.117.10 (talk) 13:26, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Russia has been suspended from the group for an indefinite time.

Time to lock the article.151.40.35.236 (talk) 17:43, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Russia has not been suspended, only meeting was cancelled in Sochi. --198.23.79.155 (talk) 06:57, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Russia is suspended for an indefinite time.This is the common decision de facto of G7.For istance all italian media define Russia as SUSPENDED.That's more than 2 citations.Russia got Crimea but now is suspended from G8.In Italy that is an official member of the G8 from very long time it's official that Russia is SUSPENDED.RUSSIA IS SUSPENDED DE FACTO.I'm sorry for russians that vandalize the article. 151.40.82.54 (talk) 12:46, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

https://www..it/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CC8QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.televideo.rai.it%2Ftelevideo%2Fpub%2Fsolotesto.jsp%3Fpagina%3D150&ei=DZwpU5ejMaT9ygOkuIK4CA&usg=AFQjCNHuv-b6kPRo3R6hCNkBZBFfnY6QTA&bvm=bv.62922401,d.bGQ

It's a broken link. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.202.234.2 (talk) 14:50, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

According to the UK Prime Minister David Cameron Russia should be expelled in the next G7+EU.This wouldn't be anymore a suspension but an expulsion.151.40.82.54 (talk) 15:51, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

It's lost time and propaganda to stop reality.This article will be locked with sanctions to Russia after the G7 + EU.151.40.82.54 (talk) 17:38, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

151.40.82.54 Your disruptive list of edits from 2013 to 2014 Ip addresses from Italy, all targeted as anti Russian, slamming disputived post and non acedemic source edits not supported for POV community. Your history reflects a lot of wikipedia abuse.

Your ip addresses:

March 17, 2014 - 151.40.95.82 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/151.40.95.82

April 2013 - Bocca Trabaria http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Bocca_Trabaria

March 2014 - 151.40.24.9 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/151.40.24.9

March 2014 - 151.40.7.192 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/151.40.7.192

Sept 23, 2013 - 151.40.18.30 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/151.40.18.30

Sept 15, 2013 - 151.40.55.125 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/151.40.55.125

March 18, 2014 - 151.40.35.236 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/151.40.35.236

March 18, 2014 - 151.40.9.149 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/151.40.9.149

March 17, 2014 - 151.40.72.141 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/151.40.72.141

March 16, 2014 - 151.40.14.179 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/151.40.14.179

March 16, 2014 - 151.40.83.17 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/151.40.83.17

March 15, 2014 - 151.40.69.199 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/151.40.69.199

March 15, 2014 - 151.40.34.218 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/151.40.34.218

March 15, 2014 - 151.40.120.19 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/151.40.120.19

Feb 4, 2014 - 151.40.63.30 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/151.40.63.30

Feb 4, 2014- 151.40.16.167 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/151.40.16.167

Dec 28, 2013 - 151.40.107.93 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/151.40.107.93

Dec 27, 2013 - 151.40.27.25 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/151.40.27.25

Dec 27, 2013 - 151.40.64.77 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/151.40.64.77

Dec 25, 2013 - 151.40.54.32 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/151.40.54.32

Dec 23, 2013 - 151.40.41.170 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/151.40.41.170

Dec 22, 2013 - 151.40.9.139 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/151.40.9.139

Sept 8, 2013 - 151.40.102.200 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/151.40.102.200

August 14, 2013 - 151.40.125.50 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/151.40.125.50

May 10, 2013 - Mediolanum http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Mediolanum

Oct 22, 2013 - Glc72 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Glc72

May 21, 2013 - 151.40.11.180 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/151.40.11.180

May 14, 2013 - 151.40.59.151 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/151.40.59.151

May 14, 2013 - 151.40.60.108 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/151.40.60.108

May 11, 2013 - Bocca_Trabaria http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Bocca_Trabaria

unsourced content, as you did to G8. This contravenes Wikipedia's policy on verifiability. If you continue to do so, you may be blocked from editing Wikipedia.--195.211.155.80 (talk) 21:15, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

It's not a right place to discuss editors. Xx236 (talk) 08:35, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

The G8 has not suspended Russia, it only cancelled the Sochi meeting in June.--198.23.70.230 (talk) 21:28, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

It doesn't exist at present .Xx236 (talk) 11:24, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

They are still a member of the G8, but the sources only confirm that they will not be invited to the next round of meetings, which was moved from Russia to another city in Europe. I forget which one and am too lazy to switch to another window and look it up, but am not too lazy to type all this extra explanation. Good fried.--JOJ ^Hutton 21:04, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

I'm compelled to agree. The G8 is, by definition, the G7 + Russia. The Western nations have decided not to participate in the G8 format, meeting in the G7 format instead. However, it is absurd to say that the Western nations expelled Russia from the G8. If there is a dialog between the US, EU, and Russia and the US and EU kicks Russia out of the meeting... is it still a dialog between the US, EU, and Russia? No, it has become a dialog between the US and EU. Without Russia it is not the G8... it is the G7. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.79.251.253 (talk) 22:25, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

I came to comment on the same thing. The title "G8" by definition includes Russia. Partially deleting Russia as a member from the article, makes the rest of the article not make sense. This article also seems to conflate G7 information with the G8 information. I would suggest a better structuring of both articles to put all information prior to 1997(8?) into the G7 article (which would presumably include the next meeting), and leave this article covering the G8, with Russia as a member. The last section can then follow the boycott and any further news. - lissa 69.140.221.219 (talk) 22:47, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

I have re-added Russia it has been removed by a bunch of IPs now, suspension though does not mean permanent removal or expulsion. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:22, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

It looks like there are two things people are trying to do to this article to respond to Russia's suspension: either remove Russia from the list, or else (or in addition to?) merge G8 with G7. Both strike me as wrong. Once this becomes more clear, why can't we just say that the G8 isn't meeting right now, but only the G7 is? 'G8' and 'G7' name sets, not institutions. The G8 set is suspended for now (maybe one day we can say that it was a brief historical period); the G7 isn't.2601:B:C580:F45:226:6CFF:FE2E:33D (talk) 01:31, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

It goes further though. Russia was removed from the member list and the map. But without Russia it isn't the G8... it is the G7. It doesn't make any sense to say that the Western countries expelled Russia from the G8. Western countries are no longer participating in the G8 format with Russia; instead they have reverted to the G7 format without Russia. To say it is the G8 but without Russia makes no sense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.79.251.253 (talk) 02:12, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Because every country voted to ban Russia from the G-8 on the grounds that its Imperialistic adventure was illegal under international law. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.135.164.254 (talk) 12:27, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

G8 should be locked. Edits are happening literally once a minute ever since Russia was expelled from the group. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.135.164.254 (talk) 12:39, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Russia was not expelled from the group, cause this is unofficial organization which dont have regulations => obviously nobody can be expelled by somebody — Preceding unsigned comment added by Akhmed Nazarbaijan (talk • contribs) 17:17, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

I don't see by what mechanism Russia was supposedly expelled nor do any sources explain this. Was there a vote and, if so, under what rules of order? Who voted for, against, or abstained? Did Russia get a vote? Where is the record of such a vote? The sources reference no actual mechanism by which Russia was expelled, rather they quote politicians who make claims that Russia was expelled (in some cases) or suspended (in others).

Can someone please explain what formal mechanism the G8 has for expelling or suspending a member? What formal processes must be followed and were they followed in this case? Or, if no actual such mechanism exists, what is the basis for claiming that Russia was 'expelled' or 'suspended'? Not to sound too tongue in cheek but.. if there is no formal process for expelling members couldn't Russia just as easily say they expelled the G7?

Quoting directly from the source cited in the main page (NYT): “We will suspend our participation in the G-8 until Russia changes course,” the seven countries declared [...] So the countries declared that they would stop participating in the G8; they did not declare that Russia was expelled according to the official statement. 173.79.251.253 (talk) 23:47, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

G7 suspended their participation in G8, but promised to continue their collaboration as G7. Russia declared that it doesn't "cling to this format" either. It's natural to consider this new G7 as successor of G8 and not to create a new article, but to actualize this one, moving all references to Russia to the history part. Moreover, G7 had the same format in 1980s-1990s (the same countries without Russia), but we don't indeed create a different article about that period, incorporating the period to the history of the same club instead. Oleksiy.golubov (talk) 01:53, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

But what is your reasoning for "moving all references to Russia to the history part" ? The G8 may be defunct... but Russia was always a member. Shouldn't their name and flag be displayed, have them shown on the map, etc. ? Just because the G7 stopped participating in the G8 forum does not change the fact that the G8, by definition, includes Russia.173.79.251.253 (talk) 19:23, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

G8 exists no more. Instead we have G7, as we used to have prior to 1997. Now Russia is only a part of history of G7. Alternatively we can preserve this article "G8" covering period 1997-2014, and create 3 new articles "G7 after 2014", "G7 prior to 1997", and "G6" (in 1970s, without Canada). But to me this seems absurd, as these clubs though unofficial are clearly each other's successors. Oleksiy.golubov (talk) 20:30, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, but the are not "clearly" each other's successor. What is your basis for this? How do you explain that, after the formation of the G8, the G7 has continued to meet separately? They are clearly two separate meeting formats.173.79.251.253 (talk) 15:27, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

What we call G7 in Wikipedia now and what persisted to exist during the G8 period is a completely different club, consisting of finance ministers, not presidents. Now that article should be renamed into G7 (financial club) or something like that, while the name G7 should be reserved for the more famous club, consisting of presidents. Oleksiy.golubov (talk) 21:18, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

There is no G7 outside of the meeting of finance ministers. That is the group which held an 'emergency session' in Belgium. The Presidents were present because of a coinciding Nuclear Summit. It is interesting that this 'emergency session' was the first time the G7 met outside a G7 nation. Regardless, it was officially a meeting of the G7 finance ministers. There is no "more famous club, consisting of presidents".

The Europeans own statement indicates two things: First, the G7 and G8 are distinct entities. Second, Russia was not suspended or expelled but, rather, the Europeans suspended their participation. It is incorrect to say that Russia was suspended or expelled.

G7 Official Statement: We note that Russia's actions in Ukraine also contravene the principles and values on which the G7 and the G8 operate. As such, we have decided for the time being to suspend our participation in activities associated with the preparation of the scheduled G8 Summit in Sochi in June, until the environment comes back where the G8 is able to have meaningful discussion."173.79.251.253 (talk) 21:06, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Angela Markel refers to it as "The G7 and former G8 group" now --LeVivsky (ಠ_ಠ) 20:20, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

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