Talk:Gaza war/Archive 8

Hamas and hesbollah have sent drones and rockets to the north as per Times of Israel and i24 news Residents across north told to shelter as several aircraft appear to infiltrate Israel | The Times of Israel LIVEBLOG: As Israel Readies For Counteroffensive, Terror Attacks Continue, Death Toll Crosses 1,200 - I24NEWS

can anyone add this to the corresponding area? LionFireKing404 (talk) 17:00, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Add exactly what to map? Map does not depict anything aerial. Cactus Ronin (talk) 21:57, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Apologies if this is a minor gripe, but I do think this is important and I can't edit it myself as I'm under the 500 edits count. The line in question is from the header:

"After clearing militants from affected areas, Israel responded with airstrikes in the densely-populated Gaza Strip targeting strategic buildings and military targets..."

I believe it should be rephrased as "...ostensibly targeting strategic buildings and military targets" or "...claimed to be targeted at strategic buildings and military targets" or something of the like. Given that the next clause states that they bombed hospitals, mosques, homes, and a refugee camp and the only source that they were "targeting military targets" is necessarily the IDF itself this seems appropriate.

Frankly I would remove this clause altogether since it's not sourced in the header or elaborated on in the body of the text anywhere. Would appreciate it if someone could make this change. Jhodders (talk) 17:38, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Please provide multiple reliable source publications that support your concern. SPECIFICO talk 17:46, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Why would he need sources when all he is saying is that the first sentence is contradictory to the second? It's not very good writing, at the very least.

And there is no citation for it, either. 68.111.7.219 (talk) 18:40, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

We generally avoid words like ostensibly and claimed because they imply doubt. If sources disagree whether something is true, then we describe who said it. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 23:17, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Evidently, no casualties were reported among the residents of Nir Am. According to various sources, this extraordinary outcome is attributed to the actions of Inbal Lieberman. The question arises as to where this information should be incorporated and what level of detail is deemed appropriate

Sources:

• https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-ofakim-one-womans-graceful-bravery-offers-precious-solace-to-a-grieving-nation/
• https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-11/ty-article/.premium/israeli-woman-who-helped-save-a-kibbutz-im-not-a-hero-i-wasnt-there-by-myself/0000018b-1e4f-d47b-a7fb-bfdf2e560000
• https://www.news.com.au/world/middle-east/israeli-woman-hailed-as-a-hero-for-killing-terrorists/news-story/aebb533af17feddc4ebe761c7ba38ae5

Infinity Knight (talk) 21:01, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Can an Arabic speaker translate, this الدفاع الألمانية: وافقنا على طلب إسرائيلي باستخدام اثنتين من طائراتنا المسيرة في القتال ضد حماس?

Google translated it to "German Defense: We agreed to an Israeli request to use two of our drones in the fight against Hamas". However, another editor said that the translation was Germany sending drones to Ukraine, not Hamas. Can someone verify (not using Google or a translate tool) if "Ukraine" or "Hamas" was said? The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 02:54, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

The German defence forces: we have agree to an Israeli request to use two (I’m assuming two types) of our drones in the fight against hamas”

the Arabic text you posted does not mention Ukraine. The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 03:24, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Much appreciated! I thought the translation from Google was right, since there is a secondary English source saying the same thing, but given the translation disagreement, I wanted it translated here. Thank you! The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 03:26, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

This edit request to 2023 Israel–Hamas war has been answered. Set the |answered= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Add jenin brigade into the war since they joined earlier today 103.209.207.126 (talk) 03:47, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Source(s) first, please. Yue🌙 03:59, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Please change "The war has led to immense collateral damage, including the widespread deaths of civilians, and there have been allegations of war crimes" to "The war has led to immense destruction and loss of life, including the widespread deaths of civilians. Sources such as Human Rights Watch and the United Nations Human Rights Council allege war crimes by Palestinian militant groups and the Israeli authorities." The last phrase ("...Palestinian militant groups and the Israeli authorities") could be changed simply to "both sides" but I don't think that's necessarily better.

The above change reflects the content of the articles cited, and avoids the passive voice and the use of the term "collateral damage" (which is particularly problematic). Wikipedia itself notes (in keeping with the sources cited) that collateral damage is a controversial and potentially euphemistic term, and the very HRW article cited at the end of the sentence describes the war crimes as intentional (i.e., "collective punishment" requires intent) and not "collateral". WillowCity (talk) 03:39, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

The Guardian link at the end of the sentence also redirects to their topic/live feed page. Perhaps we should link the actual statement by the UNHRC ("The Commission has been collecting and preserving evidence of war crimes committed by all sides since 7 October 2023") instead. WillowCity (talk) 03:44, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Both of these suggestions seem sensible to me. Riposte97 (talk) 04:02, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Collateral damage is certainly a phrase typically used by militaries and the governments that command them to euphemistically minimize undue impact to civilian infrastructure. Iskandar323 (talk) 04:09, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Unlike Iran which denies direct support while supporting the attack; US directly supports Israel and sends armaments and so do European nations; so I do not know why they removed US as a supporter of Israel RickyBlair668 (talk) 06:39, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

There was an RfC on the use of "Supported by" in military conflict infoboxes, and the consensus was that the practice should be discontinued and avoided, with exceptions existing only if there was general agreement on the respective talk page(s) to do so. Yue🌙 06:44, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

It's also sufficiently blindingly obvious that it hardly needs saying. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:04, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

This is completely redundant to the "Military reactions" section. VintageVernacular (talk) 09:23, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Merged already. Borgenland (talk) 15:09, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

More material (e.g. Sen. Josh Hawley) one with sufficient authorization could still add. Alousybum (talk) 17:13, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Imho that article seems speculative. Might be prudent to wait and see what happens in Washington before including anything concrete in the article. Riposte97 (talk) 02:21, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

In a while the topic will be either a footnote or an article, wait and see.  // Timothy :: talk  06:47, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Multiple sources have made this claim and called it "Israel's 9/11", but how accurate is this really? What consitutes a "terrorist attack" versus an "act of war"? You don't see most of the war battles throughout history listed among the list of terror attacks, so why would this be any different? If this is truly to be considered a "terror attack" then wouldn't the death toll rank it amongst the likes of attacks such as the Camp Speicher massacre in 2014 and 9/11 in terms of death toll? Undescribed (talk) 00:57, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

@Undescribed A terror attack is an attack carried specifically on civilians of a certain country / or people, in order to hurt or kill them.

Usually careied by extremists, intended to slaughter civilians, *to promote their agenda / ideals*, and literally "Installing terror onto the streets".

A declerance of war, is a country attacking another, and attacking the other's *military*, to seize land, and control the population. Not to slaughter them.

Usually in order to hurt the other side, and win specific things such as a complete control over the country, a weakening of the country, seizing specific land (See nagorno-karabakh), and more.

A WAR ON TERROR / WAR INCLUDING TERROR, is a war in which a terror organisation/entity, such is Hamas, is involved. Hamas slaughters civilians and innocents to promote his political agenda, and is controlling a certain amount of land (See Gaza Strip), and is, de facto, a country.

And when a large scale armed conflict, and with two entities fighting from their controlled areas, it's war.

When at least one side is using violence, mass murder, and yes, literally, "Terror", on the other side, it's a war including terror.

Again,

The terms are broad, blurry, and general, yet usually when the term "War on Terror" is used, it's specify a terror organisation, involved in a large-scale, armed conflict, consisting of two different entities, usually fighting from their controlled land (Usually); in which the terror organisation uses its arms to kill innocents of the other side, to promote their political agenda/Ideologies.

An example for a war including terror, is WW2 and the Holocaust. When Nazi Germany invaded several countries (War), and used its power and reasources in order to enslave, starve and slaughter population they regard as enemies of theirs (Thus promoting their political agenda with murder: Terror), such as Jews, Gays, Gypsies, prisoners of war, Communists, etc.

• NOTE: The difference between a war and a military operation, is that a war is usually a large-scale armed fight, while an operation is a smaller one.
• NOTE: Again, the terms are broad, in some cases even refrencing the same thing, and in some cases meaning two completely different things.

רם אבני (talk) 01:35, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Attempts to define terrorism by it's intentions have mostly failed. 9/11 needed new narratives to explain it as terrorism. It was different from any previous suicide attacks. After 9/11, there were numerous similar suicide attacks against US and pro-Western targets worldwide in places as obscure as Bali. The comparison to 9/11 is simply a statement about the impact this is likely to have on Israeli society and especially young people. There is no universal definition of terrorism. Hostage taking is terrorism. This isn't complicated. Ben Azura (talk) 09:19, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

• It is generally described as a terrorist attack in most RS, but the question is legitimate, see e.g. here. My very best wishes (talk) 01:37, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

  @My very best wishes: I originally removed this comment because I did not see a reference to anything that's actually been included in the article. The phrase "deadliest terror attack in Israel's history" is not in the article. So I did not see the relevance for including it on the talk page here, especially since the topic is one that could easily slip into forum-like discussion. --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 01:40, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Here is one of refs mentioning it as the "the deadliest attack in Israel in decades". My very best wishes (talk) 01:48, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

• @Jprg1966 Yet it is factual. And therefore somebody needs to find a source who tells that, link it, and re-write the fact that it's the deadliest terror attack in Israel's history. רם אבני (talk) 01:44, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

  The reason why it is still relevant is because I was thinking about adding the statement to the article, but wanted to first get consensus on whether it constitutes a "true" terror attack like 9/11 which it has been compared with by multiple sources. If I just add it without discussing on the talk page first it will probably be removed. Isn't that what the talk page is for? Determining what information is relevant to an article? Undescribed (talk) 01:47, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

  @Undescribed Not sure, yet I support you in adding said statement.

  Maybe the 9/11 part can come as a side note: "(...) It is the deadliest terror attack in Israel's history; regarded to be "Israel's 9/11". רם אבני (talk) 01:50, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

  OK, that's fair. I apologize, I misunderstood what you were asking. --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 01:52, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

  I just don't want to jump the gun on adding said statement, even if it is reliably sourced. This is a very high traffic article at the moment. I've even found sources claiming this to be the "second-deadliest act of terrorism in world history after 9/11". Even with a reliable source this seems like a rather controversial statement, no? Undescribed (talk) 01:55, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

  Yeah, that's difficult to weigh. I think with multiple RS, you could put it in the "analysis" section: "XYZ sources asserted it is the second-deadliest terror ...". I would avoid putting in the lead, though. That's my 2 cents. --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 02:01, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

  @Undescribed Well, you can certainly use a refrence of the amount of dead in each major terror attack. Possibly there's a table in Wikipedia of the deadliest terror attacks. Not that I know of.

  Controversial? Definitely not. If it is the second-most killed terror attack in the world, by amount of dead, then it is.

  You cannot argue against the amount of dead people.

  And when we're refrencing "the terror attack", we of course mean the suprsise terror invasion, who killed 700+ Israelis, and started said war (Which is the subject of the article).

  And not regarding specifically the war, but the attack that started it.

  (Which by the way should be another article) רם אבני (talk) 02:02, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

  Yeah, I think that is the main dilemma at this point. This article needs to be split with a standalone article focusing on the initial attack. Thats another reason why I'm so adamant about adding statements about it being "the deadliest terrorist attack ever in: xyz". This article is about the supposed war now, not a single attack. This type of statement should be added to the article about the attack that started the war, not in the war article itself. Just my two cents. Undescribed (talk) 02:10, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

  @Undescribed May you please create a discussion on spilitting between the terror suprise attack and the war?

  (Which probably still for now counts as a continuing terror attack, since some Kibbutzim, Cities and areas still has Hamas' terrorists lurking around.

  When they hault from lurking around the gaza envelope, (Not to be confised with the gaza strip), and in Israel, then it'll probably be counted as the END of the terror attack, and then just a war.

  By "hault" I mean be killed by the Israeli military, or escape to areas that are safe for Hamas' people.)

  Sorry to put the responsibility on you, it's just 5:15, and I really wanna head to sleep.

  Thanks! רם אבני (talk) 02:16, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

  @רם אבני: And just like that, someone already removed the statement about it being the deadliest terrorist attack. What a surprise lol Undescribed (talk) 12:51, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

  The terrorist thing is well understood by now, we apply this label in WP voice if the balance of reliable independent RS is using that descriptor. Selfstudier (talk) 17:09, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

  @Selfstudier Please define clearly "balance of reliable independent RS" and who is the arbiter that is going to decide whether the threshold has been met. Thank you. 38.23.187.20 (talk) 22:09, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

  If it was removed after it was agreed in the discussions, then it may be griefing.

  I suggest we open a discussion on applying protection for the article, in order to prevent griefers. רם אבני (talk) 17:17, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

  Soldiers and police seem to account for about 2/3 of the killed. Attacking them is not terrorism. 2A02:AA1:102F:523D:FC79:77E1:75A2:C6BF (talk) 22:00, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Here's a source calling it a terrorist attack:

https://www.jewishagency.org/

More importantly, this is the deadliest attack against Jews in a single day since the Holocaust:

https://www.jta.org/2023/10/08/israel/was-hamas-attack-the-bloodiest-day-for-jews-since-the-holocaust

https://www.timesofisrael.com/was-hamass-attack-on-saturday-the-bloodiest-day-for-jews-since-the-holocaust/

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/worst-massacre-of-jews-since-the-holocaust/ar-AA1hVS0R

https://news.yahoo.com/deadliest-single-attack-jews-since-115911584.html

https://www.afr.com/world/middle-east/worst-atrocity-since-holocaust-jewish-leaders-back-retaliation-20231010-p5eb3v 2601:40:C481:A940:BC5B:2D91:8072:848E (talk) 07:43, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Accoridng to Israeli media and sources 1000+ (mostly civilians) killed/murdered by Hamas. Deadliest mass killing of Jews since the holocaust. Homerethegreat (talk) 09:49, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

haaretz gives the number 600 after previously saying 900. About 2/3 seems to be combatants. 2A02:AA1:102F:523D:FC79:77E1:75A2:C6BF (talk) 22:01, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Israel citizens with dual nationality shouldn't be listed separately, i.e. Shani Louk (raised in Israel most of her life, resident at time of death, served in IDF, but born in Germany) should not be listed solely as a 'German national' under Israeli casualties. She was not a foreign tourist, but a permanent resident of Israel and Israeli citizen. Only people with non-Israeli citizenship should be listed as such (ex. the Thai foreign workers). Doing so, is inherently linked to political reasons to involve as many international Western powers as possible (USA, UK, Germany etc.). It has gotten to the point where IDF soldiers, who died in combat, are listed as 'British nationals' (in the case of Nathaniel Young as reported by BBC). Nobody sees how ridiculous this is? UK citizenship laws don't even allow its citizens to serve in a foreign military, and if an Israeli soldier (who happens to hold dual nationalities) is made a casualty, he/she should be counted solely as Israeli. Otherwise this is misleading information. If a non-dual Israeli American, British or German citizen was made a casualty, by all means list them separately. User6619018899273 (talk) 21:02, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Agree. Also, the Foreign and dual-national casualties table should have some info about those with dual citizenship. For example we can have something like Americans (killed): 10 (2). Where 10 would be the total amount of American Citizens and (2) could be those with dual-citizenship. Cristi767 (talk) 21:36, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Of course, otherwise we are dabbling in this sensationalism like news articles titled "Americans killed!" when all the aforementioned Americans are dual Israeli citizens (in many cases permanent residents of Israel), it is far more appropriate given the context of Palestinian vs. Israeli to list them all as Israeli first and foremost, or in any case dual Israeli-American. There is a big political motive behind this, to list them as solely American in order to involve the USA on behalf of Israel, perhaps militarily. We need to be honest and state the factual info as per sources, and not omit this important distinction.User6619018899273 (talk) 21:09, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

@Cristi767 I second this solution. It provides additional information and avoids the confusion feared above. Riposte97 (talk) 03:26, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

No, I would suggest to count/sum them in the both categories, i.e. a person would be counted as Israeli and British citizen, for example. My very best wishes (talk) 21:42, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

If you insist then edit and list them as both, in this case Israeli-British. What I see currently is only 'British' under the casualty section for people who are described as dual Israeli-British citizens in the news articles.User6619018899273 (talk) 22:03, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

I assume that all people who appear in table Foreign and dual-national casualties are also counted among "1,200+ killed" [in Israel] in the infobox. Do not see a problem here. My very best wishes (talk) 23:13, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

1300 killed now, see the source

https://t.me/tg301military/5244 77.248.247.89 (talk) 18:26, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/10/10/israel-hamas-war-live-us-redoubles-israel-support-as-bombs-rain-on-gaza

"Hamas has continued to fire rockets at Israel, with Israeli forces and Lebanon-based Hezbollah fighters also exchanging fire. Israel’s military has also said that shells launched from Syria landed in open areas within Israel."

This seems significant. should we say that Syria is involved in the infocolumn? Or is it too early for that? Genabab (talk) 09:28, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Too early. See the above discussion: #Syrias involvement. Yue🌙 07:03, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Please explain how "collecting evidence of war crimes committed by all sides" does not mean that they have charachterized the conduct as being war crimes @Alcibiades979:? Makeandtoss (talk) 10:31, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Plus you have violated 1RR. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:32, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Because conduct means: "the act, manner, or process of carrying on" as per Merriam Webster, the inference then becomes that Israel and Hamas's being in and of itself in the conflict is criminal. Where as stating that war crimes have taken place doesn't pass judgement on. In a nutshell its the difference between saying someone committed crimes and someone is a criminal. Beyond that collecting evidence is also different from making an accusation. Alcibiades979 (talk) 10:41, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Instead of finding alternatives however you just simply removed mention of the UN, and violated 1RR. There's no difference; someone who committed crimes is a criminal. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:55, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Collecting evidence does not mean that they believe that war crimes have been committed. Once the evidence is collected it may or may not prove this. Alaexis_¿question? 11:25, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Instead of palestinian militant It should be palestinian terror organizations. As the definition of terror is: violence or the threat of violence used as a weapon of intimidation or coercion

violent or destructive acts (such as bombing) committed by groups in order to intimidate a population or government into granting their demandsV

In the case, should not the Israeli 'Defence' Force be termed a terror organizations? For as you made clear, the definition of terror is: violence used as a weapon of intimidation. Given this, might not the terror bombing of civilian areas - in order to punish a population - be called a War Crime? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.69.169.27 (talk) 11:20, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

thats called whataboutery.israeli defence force cannot be compared to hamas or other terrorist groups. its not wise to play victim when idf retaliates after this sort of attack:

Legitimacy and Recognition:

IDF: The Israeli Defense Forces is the official military organization of the State of Israel and operates under the authority of a recognized government. It is recognized as a legitimate military force by many countries.

Hamas and other terrorist organizations: These groups are not officially recognized as legitimate military forces. They are often considered terrorist organizations by many countries and international bodies.

Objectives:

IDF: The primary objective of the IDF is to defend the State of Israel and its citizens, maintain security, and protect its sovereignty. It operates under the laws of armed conflict and aims to minimize civilian casualties.

Hamas and other terrorist organizations: These groups often have political, ideological, or religious objectives that may involve the use of violence against civilian populations, including Israel, with the intent of advancing their goals. Their tactics often involve deliberate targeting of civilians, which is considered a violation of international humanitarian law.

Methods:

IDF: The IDF is a conventional military force that follows the rules of engagement, international laws, and treaties. It uses military strategies and tactics in response to security threats and operates with the goal of minimizing collateral damage and civilian casualties.

Hamas and other terrorist organizations: These groups typically employ asymmetric warfare tactics, including guerrilla warfare, suicide bombings, rocket attacks on civilian areas,rape and other forms of violence that often result in significant civilian casualties.

Organizational Structure:

IDF: The IDF has a hierarchical structure, command chain, and established rules of engagement. It operates as a standing military force.

Hamas and other terrorist organizations: These groups often have more loosely organized structures, with smaller cells and less centralized command and control. They often operate covertly and are more difficult to track.

International Status:

IDF: Israel is a recognized sovereign state, and the IDF's actions are subject to international scrutiny and criticism, particularly in cases where there are allegations of human rights violations.

Hamas and other terrorist organizations: These groups are generally considered non-state actors and are often subject to sanctions and condemnation for their actions, particularly for targeting civilians.

ALSO terrorist is a very vague term and its definition is blurred. we should use "islamic terrorism/fundamentalism" and make it more specific. whatever hamas is doing perfectly fits the definition(i.e fighting for occupied land and how to fight is also covered in islamic texts ). so islamic terrorism is the best option her as per my opinion. Observer1989 (talk) 14:32, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

• Speaking about the Israel side, would their bombings of Gaza qualify as indiscriminate attacks? This is a tricky question because a civilian building occupied by the militants is a legitimate target. Yes, a number of civilians have died. But using civilians as hostages/shields is a war crime by the side that does it (i.e. Hamas). This is all complicated. My very best wishes (talk) 17:35, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

  They would qualify as indiscriminate, as well as disproportionate. Assuming there is truth to the claim that in every bombing there was a legitimate military target, and even assuming Hamas was using human shields in every case, that doesn't alleviate the legal obligations of Israel. Human Rights Watch has previously found Israel's strikes in Gaza to be war crimes, and stressed those findings again when issuing statements about the present bombings. entropyandvodka | talk 23:08, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

  I see. This is United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict. Any urban warfare will result in deaths of numerous civilians or collateral damage. This boils down to Collateral_damage#International_humanitarian_law, see last paragraph in this section. My very best wishes (talk) 00:21, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

  Your analysis is not currently supported by WP:RS sources. We need to slow down a bit and see what the best sources say specifically and explicitly about Israeli actions in the current situation. References to past events are not helpful. SPECIFICO talk 01:48, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Of course if they are going to do something like the destruction of Grozny, while blocking the exit from the city for civilians, that would be internationally condemned as a war crime.My very best wishes (talk) 19:54, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

My understanding is the major concern with the Israeli conduct of the war, aside from the obvious dispute between targeting civilians and collateral damage, is that the siege of Gaza could result in a humanitarian crisis, something that, were it to, say, result in hundreds of thousands of deaths, it clearly would.

The Israelis, to my understanding, a waging the siege as a reprisal for the kidnappings. I'm, anyways, curious as to whether there hasn't been any analysis as to just what is supposed to happen in so far that Hamas does not back down. Daydreamdays2 (talk) 19:48, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Instead of palestinian militant It should be palestinian terror organizations. As the definition of terror is: violence or the threat of violence used as a weapon of intimidation or coercion

violent or destructive acts (such as bombing) committed by groups in order to intimidate a population or government into granting their demandsV 2A0D:6FC7:51D:DF76:98D3:C3D8:B4D4:F532 (talk) 10:38, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

This has been raised numerous times. Once again, we do not conduct WP:OR as editors. Riposte97 (talk) 01:29, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

These are not alleged accounts; those are facts confirmed by International organizations. Therefore it is wrong to write that those war crimes "...are claimed by some Israeli sources".

Again, these war crimes and acts have been confirmed by international organizations.

"Some" Wikipedia user has omitted this in one of the last edits.

Now you all have to look back in the article history to find those references that were omitted by the aforementioned Wikipedia user. 2A02:14F:1F2:A1DA:0:0:9FDC:528F (talk) 13:10, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

when almost the whole islamic world is supporting hamas and justifying their actions it would be foolish to think muslim editors(who are in good numbers) will not be biased and wont try to dilute or whitewash these incidents.it directly undermines the palestinian narrative.it cannot be allowed. Observer1989 (talk) 13:34, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

The claim of baby beheadings has been debunked. Furthermore, I would implore you to not assume every Muslim or Arabic speaker is in cahoots to downplay what’s going on. Paragon Deku (talk) 20:24, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

debunked by whow? which reliable investigative source? israeli army never denied anything and now you will twist their words and take it vas reliable source when it suits your narrative? now they are reliable source? there are multiple international sources,interviews etc confirming beheadings. but i am pretty sure every action of hamas will get "debunked" here somehow.lol.. i am also telling the same to other poor editors who wants to label freedom fighter hamas as terrorists that dont be surprised when certain editors and admins start whitewashing the acts of hamas.and i never said all arabic speakers support hamas.i implied majority arabic as well as non arabic followers of islam support hamas.might be my personal opinion but i stand my ground.not asking anyone to include this in article.just providing free information.take it or leave it.dosent matter Observer1989 (talk) 20:42, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Per the latest information, it appears that IDF can't confirm that the beheadings happened to babies. They are acknowledging that beheadings are happening though. It appears that most media sources are reporting based off of the PM's office initial statement, though it's been somewhat walked back. It's definitely not debunked and the article refers to the Israeli Official making the statement to CNN. KD0710 (talk) 17:19, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. Multiple reliable sources already confirmed the beheadings. Can an authorized editor please change it so that there isn't any equivocation? AtypicalPhantom (talk) 15:14, 11 October 2023claims

If that case, you will be able to mention all the "multiple reliable sources" that have confirmed this outrage? Also, to show that there is not any equivocation, should not an editor update the article in line with the best evidence?

The kidnapping of IDF officer Nimrod Aloni is a fake. See https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-gaza-misinformation-fact-check-e58f9ab8696309305c3ea2bfb269258e Please correct the informarion about him within the page. Shaishyy (talk) 13:11, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Already done. Borgenland (talk) 15:24, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Regarding the statement in the lede section: "Survivor interviews provide claims of wartime sexual violence, including instances of rape committed by Hamas militants." Can anyone verify whether this might be an overblown wartime allegation from an Israeli official?

Before featuring it prominently in the opening section, we must first acquire more substantial and definitive evidence for this. StarkReport (talk) 21:26, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

It is not improbable. An Israeli friend of mine whom I trust had friends at that rave party. The daughter of one was raped three times before, presumably, being taken back to Gaza. That is not coming from an Israeli official.Nishidani (talk) 21:36, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes sadly there is a correlation between people who are willing to kill civilians in cold blood and people who are willing to commit sexual violence. The fact that the period of lawlessness was only a few hours long in most places would suggest it was not widespread though, hopefully. Onceinawhile (talk) 21:51, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

A source that appended ahead of the line was about Israeli official alleging rape. While it would be unfortunate and horrible if this turned out to be true. But we must exercise caution and prioritize more and better WP:RS and WP:OR sources for this.

We should prioritize seeking independent sources rather than relying solely on Israeli sources to substantiate this grave claim, adhering to the core WP:PROVEIT. StarkReport (talk) 21:54, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

It should be qualified as an allegation, if only from one source, and not stated in wiki voice. If that's the case it might not be due in the lede. entropyandvodka | talk 21:58, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Qualified as according to that source, rather, not qualified as an allegation because it is only from one source. entropyandvodka | talk 21:58, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

For the time being, we should remove the allegation from the article's introduction until concrete evidence can substantiate the claims. StarkReport (talk) 22:06, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Agree on seeking independent sources.VR _talk 00:12, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

I am an Israely, and this whole discussion about weathr teenage girls were raped or not raped during the attack is extremly insensitive and offensive towrds the Israely people. I have seen many videos by Hamass oficial sources claiming and being proud of raping our girls saying proudly its something to celebrate! A Hammas terrorist interrogated admitted there was a mass rape at the rave of our young innocent girls next to their friends bodies. there are numerous videos of young girls kidnapped by hammas with blood oozing between their legs.... I know its hard to hear and belive but this is our reality, they are killing and raping our people and celebrating our death. This whole article is infuriating, why doesnt it call the attack by its name, just like president Joe Biden have said in his speech- a terror attack? Orohayon (talk) 00:44, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Has anyone seen estimates of the number of people who entered, and how many were militants? IDF spokesman Richard Hecht said “Approximately 1,500 bodies of Hamas militants were found in Israel around the Gaza Strip” which is the figure we have in our infobox here. There are a lot of videos on Twitter showing masses of unarmed Palestinians in Southern Israel (e.g.) so either there were many more than 1,500 people who crossed the border, or not all of those 1,500 were Hamas militants. Onceinawhile (talk) 22:16, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

I've been looking for the past couple of days and haven't been able to find an estimate; I would, however, assume that there were many more than 1500 because we know many militants escaped back to Gaza with hostages. BilledMammal (talk) 22:20, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes good point. It should be a multiple of those whose bodies were found, unless the majority of those who went out-and-in then went back out again afterwards.

Finding an estimate for the number of civilian Gazan Palestinians killed while in Israel would be valuable too. Onceinawhile (talk) 22:36, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

There are videos that show Palestinian civilians walking in and out of the Gaza barrier (so technically they do step inside Israel), but I doubt many civilians ventured far into Israel. Taking a few steps inside Israel (perhaps as a curiosity, since Gazans are never allowed to leave the tiny strip) is different from militants driving several kilometers inside on a mission to kill.VR _talk 00:08, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Four of the five Twitter videos above are clearly far inside Israel. Onceinawhile (talk) 00:16, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

After the attack was known Apache helicopters were deployed preventing anybody to cross the border. Many of these Gazans must have been trapped and finally killed.

So the 1500 adds Hamas terrorists and "curious".

With around 10 attacks involving around 100 fighters I think 1000 is a good estimate without precise sources. Probably an overestimate.

RadXman (talk) 00:28, 12 October 2023 (UTC)