Talk:Internet/Archive 6

There have been a few changes, reverts, and more changes to the lead over the last several weeks that I'd like to review.

At 18:11 and 21:13 Thevideodrome made two edits without edit summaries that changed text in the lead from:

As of June 2012^[update], more than 2.4 billion people—over a third of the world's human population—have used the services of the Internet.^[3]

to

As of June 2012^[update], more than 2.4 billion people—over a third of the world's human population—have used the services of the Internet; approximately 100 times more people than were using it in 1995, when it was mostly used by tech-savvy middle and upper class people in the United States and several other countries. ^[1][2]

And at 17:05 on 24 May 2013 I added three inline templates:

As of June 2012^[update], more than 2.4 billion people—over a third of the world's human population—have used the services of the Internet; approximately 100 times more people than were using it in 1995, when it was mostly used by tech-savvy middle and upper-class people in the United States and several other countries.^{[1][2] [failed verification] [original research?] [neutrality is disputed]}

The statement that concerned me was "when it was mostly used by tech-savvy middle and upper-class people in the United States and several other countries". Unless I missed it, the cited material does not talk about "tech-savvy middle and upper-class people".

At 18:03 today (12 June 2013) Thevideodrome made a change without an edit summary that added a new reference and deleted the three inline templates I added:

As of June 2012^[update], more than 2.4 billion people—over a third of the world's human population—have used the services of the Internet; approximately 100 times more people than were using it in 1995, when it was mostly used by businesses, public schools ^[1] and tech-savvy middle and upper-class people in the United States and several other countries.^[2][3]

The new reference didn't address my concern, so at 19:32 today (12 June 2013) I reverted Thevideodrome's edit. So this portion of the lead is back to the way it was after my edit at 17:05 on 24 May 2013. Unless someone can find a reference that specifically supports it, I think the statement, "when it was mostly used by tech-savvy middle and upper-class people in the United States and several other countries", should be deleted from the article.

--Jeff Ogden (W163) (talk) 00:56, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Today (15 June 2013) Thevideodrome made a series of three edits without giving an edit summary on any of them and without making a comment on this talk page. Among other things the edits removed the "failed verification", "or", and "pov-statement" inline templates. The revised portion now reads:

As of June 2012^[update], more than 2.4 billion people—over a third of the world's human population—have used the services of the Internet; approximately 100 times more people than were using it in 1995, when most of its users lived in the United States and Internet users were a minority in every single country the network reached at that time.^[1][2]

The references do not give or talk about Internet use by country in 1995, so this still represents original research and I will add the "or" tag again. --Jeff Ogden (W163) (talk) 13:32, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

My feeling is that, if some reliable sources can be found to support this statement, the discussion would be better in the Growth in number of users section of the Internet access article, then here in the lead to the Internet article. --Jeff Ogden (W163) (talk) 13:52, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

 Done. I removed the text "when most of its users lived in the United States and Internet users were a minority in every single country the network reached at that time." This portion of the lead now reads:

As of June 2012^[update], more than 2.4 billion people—over a third of the world's human population—have used the services of the Internet; approximately 100 times more people than were using it in 1995.^[1][2]

--Jeff Ogden (W163) (talk) 15:20, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Earlier today there were some changes and a revert made to the lead of the article that I'd like to review.

At 17:58 today (13 June 2013) Thevideodrome, without an edit description, changed a portion of the lead of the article from:

The origins of the Internet reach back to research commissioned by the United States government in the 1960s to build robust, fault-tolerant communication via computer networks. The funding of a new U.S. backbone by the National Science Foundation in the 1980s, as well as private funding for other commercial backbones, led to worldwide participation in the development of new networking technologies, and the merger of many networks. Though the Internet has been widely used by academia since the 1980s, the commercialization of what was by the 1990s an international network resulted in its popularization and incorporation into virtually every aspect of modern human life.

No references.

to

The origins of the Internet are complex. ^[1] While it's popularity believed the US Government's ARPANET system represents the beginning of the Internet in 1969, it did not represent long-distance communication but rather time-sharing. ^[2] Nevertheless, public works were a major part of the development of the Internet.

The funding of a new U.S. backbone by the National Science Foundation in the 1980s as well as private funding for other commercial backbones led to worldwide participation in the development of new networking technologies and the merger of many networks. Though the Internet has been widely used by academia since the second half of the 1980s the expansion and commercialization of what was by the mid-1990s an international network resulted in its popularization and incorporation into virtually every aspect of modern human life.

At 18:04 today (13 June 2012) Thevideodrome deleted two categories that had been associated with the article giving the edit summary "removing 1969 and "American" inventions category, since both are in fact dubious...".

At 19:32 today (12 June 2013) I reverted these changes with the edit summary "revert three edits made between 17:58 and 18:04 on 12 June 2013‎ by Thevideodrome. the reference given is probably not a reliable source. the edits removed several inline templates on a previous change by Thevideodrome without addressing issues raised" and then at 20:19 made a change of my own with an edit summary "Try to clarify and soften the description of the start of the Internet in the lead. See talk page for a discussion.", so this portion of the lead now reads:

The origins of the Internet reach back to research commissioned by the United States government in the 1960s to build robust, fault-tolerant communication via computer networks. While this work together with work in the United Kingdom and France lead to important precursor networks, they were not the Internet. There is no consensus on the exact date when the modern Internet came into being, but sometime in the early to mid-1980s is considered reasonable.

The funding of a new U.S. backbone by the National Science Foundation in the 1980s, as well as private funding for other commercial backbones, led to worldwide participation in the development of new networking technologies, and the merger of many networks. Though the Internet has been widely used by academia since the 1980s, the commercialization of what was by the 1990s an international network resulted in its popularization and incorporation into virtually every aspect of modern human life.

No references.

Hopefully the new wording is better. I believe that the U.S. government funding in the 1960s and 1970s played an important role leading to the creation of the modern Internet in the 1980s. I think this is well supported by references in the body of this article as well as in the History of the Internet article. I do not believe that it is correct to say "While it's popularity believed the US Government's ARPANET system represents the beginning of the Internet in 1969, it did not represent long-distance communication but rather time-sharing." I don't think that the reference given to Ian Peter's site should be considered a reliable source. I do think that the ARPANET was about "long-distance communication" among many other things. I also believe that the Internet was not so much created as it evolved into being over time, starting with some fundamental research and a number of trials in the late 1960s and 1970s, one of which was the ARPANET.

In any case, a change of this sort deserves to be talked about on this talk page before being made to the article.

--Jeff Ogden (W163) (talk) 01:40, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

I am not sure I support the latest changes, but I agree the history section needs work. Although ARPANET was a precursor and an early networking system, there were others. I was a Bitnet user in the 1980's and later used UUnet. I think some mention needs to be made of the early connections between bitnet, Arpanet and other commercial networks. In the early 1990s most of us had to get by with frame relay for commerical projects until the funding of major interconnects and post Arpanet developments and funding of the backbones in the early 1990s. There are is a much better history at this link which includes references to early documents http://www.livinginternet.com/i/ii_nsfnet.htm such as "The Hitchikers Guide to the Internet" which was published on the internet about the internet in 1989. The RFCs (which were the way to really understand things at the time) are probably the sources that should be sought out. The point I think needs to be emphasised is not that networking existed but that somewhere along the way, the networks got connected and general public was granted access. That interconnection is why it is the "Inter" net...I guess it is the cloud now! . On a personal note, the internet was a way I could (on my little dial up or my works shared T1, connect to a backbone. This was not possible outside specific users in the 1980s and this was a great change from the days of having limited access from university to university to research center and a very few others. To say that the internet sprang from Arpanet is true, but a bit like saying man evolved from apes without mentioning homo-erectus. Wiredrabbit (talk) 20:45, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

The Internet refers to the collection of interconnected networks all running TCP/IP - In this context, ARPANET, MILNET, CSNET, and NSFNET are all precursors but neither Bitnet nor UUCP would qualify as part of the origin. TcomptonMA 13:37, 21 June 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by TcomptonMA (talk • contribs)

The article History of the Internet covers this in more detail and mentions both UUCP and BITNET. There is a link to the History of the Internet article at the top of the History section of the main Internet article. Is that good enough? Should something from the history article be moved over into the main Internet article? If so, what and where should it go? For myself, I think the main article as it exists now is a good example of summary style and strikes a pretty good balance about what to cover itself and what to leave to the History of the Internet article. --Jeff Ogden (W163) (talk) 15:31, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

I think one of the biggest problems with this, and a lot of other articles, is the relentless efforts of American editors to cherry pick history to claim the USA invented almost everything. Where there is ambiguity and multiple countries involved, it generally goes "America was first... plus some other countries also did some other stuff that makes the idea of someone being first ambiguous".

Each individual fact alone may not be untrue, but the way it's written is in a 'if we're uncertain put America first' notion. Or even, 'if we're sure it was another country find a loosely related invention in the states that came before, ignore similar things in other countries, and claim that was the per-cursor'. It's creates a meta-bias across Wikipedia and it is a very, very big problem.

In Russia there is Internet censorship now. There's new laws which allow to control the internet. Only copyrighted or illegal content is mostly blocked, but this may change — 199.188.237.188 (talk) 19:21, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

The main picture of the article is not "bright" enough and could be misleading.

Please consider changing it with Map of the Internet

I would say it gives better insights on the Net's structure and much more attractive.

Ruslan Enikeev Irriss (talk) 05:28, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Is the suggested map something that is freely available under an appropriate license or is it in the public domain? I just looked and it didn't seem like it was freely available to me. --Jeff Ogden (W163) (talk) 18:12, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Not sure about map's web site but picture of the map available under CC licence http://the-internet-map.blogspot.sg/2012/10/internet-map-posters.html --Ruslan Irriss (talk) 08:04, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

The link on the current thumbnail appears to be broken. --146.233.255.202 (talk) 18:06, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

I apologize if this has been discussed before but I wonder if it would be constructive to add Vint Cerf's statement that the birthdate of the internet was January 1, 1983? ^[1] In the National Media Museum Life Online's History of the Internet special (released by them on YouTube), he states that after nearly every computer had switched off of ARPANET and to the TCP/IP protocol after it was standardized, "That was really the birthday of the internet, January 1st, 1983." A written source can also be found here in an interview by Ryan Singel at Wired and he has written about it at his blog.

I wanted to bring it up here first in case this has already been a topic of discussion. While I realize this is not a consensus, I believe it would be a noteworthy addition when talking about when the internet began as the article currently states with no sources, "There is no consensus on the exact date when the modern Internet came into being, but sometime in the early to mid-1980s is considered reasonable." Cerf's statement falls into this range and can offer some credit to the aforementioned statement because he is considered one of the "fathers of the internet". Courtlea (talk) 04:54, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

68.106.180.183 (talk) 03:30, 25 December 2013 (UTC) [The ARPANET was decommissioned in 1990. The Internet was commercialized in 1995 when NSFNET was decommissioned, removing the last restrictions on the use of the Internet to carry commercial traffic.[19] The Internet started a rapid expansion to Europe and Australia in the mid to late 1980s[20][21] and to Asia in the late 1980s and early 1990s.[22]]

'... rapid expansion to Europe and Australia in the mid to late 1980s[20][21] and to Asia in the late 1980s and early 1990s.[22 ?????????!!!!!!!

it was decommissioned only in 1990 in the US and so the above statement is way of !!!!!

The ARPANET was decommissioned in 1990 and replaced by NSFNET. But the commercial internet began before NSFNET as university-related startups in Europe, so you are correct, the internet was commercialized prior to 1995. I will make the appropriate correction. EllenCT (talk) 04:07, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

"the commercial Internet began before NSFNET as university-related startups in Europe" - reference needed please before making any edits with these assertions. --TcomptonMA 00:15, 27 December 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by TcomptonMA (talk • contribs)

There is a discussion going on over in Wikipedia Commons about possible changes to the colors used in the Internet Censorship map and elsewhere. It would be good to get some additional editors comments on this. If you are willing, would you pop over to Commons:File talk:Internet Censorship World Map.svg and let us know what you think? --Jeff Ogden (W163) (talk) 02:42, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

No basis was provided for the change to "internet"; as this is the english version, absent other authority I reverted this to match Chicago Manual of Style. See full discussion of this topic at Capitalization of "Internet" --TcomptonMA 00:19, 12 February 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by TcomptonMA (talk • contribs)

>> globalising internet governmence(Lihaas (talk) 13:02, 16 February 2014 (UTC)).

DrudgeReport headline: Forget the Internet - soon there will be the OUTERNET: Company plans to beam free Wi-fi to every person on Earth from space.

• http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2552177/Forget-Internet-soon-OUTERNET-Company-plans-beam-free-wi-fi-person-Earth-space.html

Quoting from the sub-headline:

• An ambitious project known as Outernet is aiming to launch hundreds of miniature satellites into low Earth orbit by June 2015
• Each satellite will broadcast the Internet to phones and computers giving billions of people across the globe free online access
• Citizens of countries like China and North Korea that have censored online activity could be given free and unrestricted cyberspace
• 'There's really nothing that is technically impossible to this'

This appears to be inevitable, but I don't know about 'free'. — Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 21:30, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

I was on the team that designed the internet. Arpanet started in the 1960s, but the Internet emerged in the United States in the 1970s in government and colleges. All colleges and government agencies used the internet in the 1980's utilizing SMTP/POP (email), FTP, NNTP (news), USENET, and clients like ARCHIE, GOPHER, VERONICA, and a number of other clients. The ".COM" domain did not exist until 1993. Compuserve offered the internet to the general public in 1988. The world wide web was born in 1990 and the first public Web browser, NCSA Mosaic was distributed in 1993. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.92.201.174 (talk) 12:40, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Hey, that was good. Become an editor, it's easy (just choose a name/password.) — Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 12:47, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

As the article said (as of this version), there is no consensus as to the exact birth date. An editor might do the research & find WP:RS sources to add a section that presents different points of view (WP:NPOV) on what the date should be in each sources' opinion. This is not encyclopedic, and would add little to the article for the reader (n.b. Wikipedia has far more important deficiencies, truly worthy of serious editing). Yes, it's something that a few people like to muse about, but that doesn't make it worthy of an inclusion in this encyclopedia. (Btw, my opinion is 1969.) Lentower (talk) 15:52, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Establishing birthdate first requires defining Internet precisely. Multiple interpretations exist, including any computer to computer communication, person to person communication via computers (e.g. email), any computer to computer communication via TCP/IP, computer to computer communication via TCP/IP available to the general public, largest network providing computer-to-computer TCP/IP communications to the general public, etc. Fairly easy to determine dates of most of the above, but doesn't answer the question of "Internet birthdate" without first choosing the right question. TcomptonMA 12:28, 13 March 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by TcomptonMA (talk • contribs)

Can this be used as a reference?--Wyn.junior (talk) 01:54, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Depends on how it's used, as it is a WP:Primary source, and is not a [[WP:RS] source. Simpler to find a source that is both WP:Secondary and WP:RS. Perhaps post the text you want this reference to support? Lentower (talk) 03:39, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

FYI - A related article, Internetization, has been AfDed and could use additional discussion at: WP:Articles_for_deletion/Internetization_(2nd_nomination). Meclee (talk) 23:46, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

This edit request to Internet has been answered. Set the |answered= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

In the user section, it states that 23% of the requested language is Chinese, whereas the pie chart claims to be a quarter. Please could you fix this in order to rectify the mistake? Thank you 86.23.99.178 (talk) 14:14, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Done I've changed the percentage in the body to 25%. Best, Mz7 (talk) 00:25, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

This edit request to Internet has been answered. Set the |answered= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Please append to the sentence: "The first two nodes of what would become the ARPANET were interconnected between Leonard Kleinrock's Network Measurement Center at the UCLA's School of Engineering and Applied Science and Douglas Engelbart's NLS system at SRI International (SRI) in Menlo Park, California, on 29 October 1969" the phrase ", using Interface Message Processors built by the Cambridge, Massachusetts company Bolt Beranek and Newman (BBN)."

The citation is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interface_Message_Processor.

This addition clarifies the word "interconnected" used in the original sentence. NameNotInUse (talk) 17:20, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Comment - Wikipedia, itself, is not a reliable source (see WP:WINARS). Find a reliable source and I will do it. DJAMP4444 17:53, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

This edit request to Internet has been answered. Set the |answered= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Change second para of "Usage" to:

Educational material at all levels from pre-school to post-doctoral is available from websites. Examples range from CBeebies, through school and high-school revision guides and virtual universities, to access to top-end scholarly literature through the likes of Google Scholar. For distance education, help with homework and other assignments, self-guided learning, whiling away spare time, or just looking up more detail on an interesting fact, it has never been easier for people to access educational information at any level from anywhere. The Internet in general and the World Wide Web in particular are important enablers of both formal and informal education. Further, the Internet allows universities, in particular researchers from the social and behavioral sciences, to conduct research remotely via virtual laboratories, with profound changes in reach and generalizability of findings as well as in communication between scientists and in the publication of results (Reips, 2008).

Reference:

Reips, U.-D. (2008). How Internet-mediated research changes science. In A. Barak (Ed.), Psychological aspects of cyberspace: Theory, research, applications (pp. 268-294). Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. http://chapter12-reips.blogspot.com/

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.238.167.206 (talk) 11:06, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. I'm sorry. Blogspot can't be used as a reliable source. —cyberpower ^Chat_Online 08:30, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

I think a reference along these lines would be OK.^[2] The reference is to a book published by Cambridge University Press and not to Blogspot.

-Jeff Ogden (W163) (talk) 12:25, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)  Done The source is not Blogspot, but the reference published by Cambridge University Press. I've added the sentence to the article. Diego (talk) 12:27, 22 July 2014 (UTC)