Talk:Internment/Archive 2

The current version of this article contains four sources for the fact that the camps operated by the U.S. government are concentration camps. All these articles sourced the label from experts on the subject. I argue we should require consensus before overruling subject experts and their published work and statements.

I argue that a well-publicized and prominent example of contemporary concentration camps makes for an excellent entry on an "Examples" list, as the whole point of the list is to point readers to notable examples that highlight the concept.

If there is consensus that WP editors should be overruling content experts about the labeling of U.S. Immigration concentration camps, then so-be-it, but I think this would go against the spirit of WP and WP editing. If someone would like to put forward arguments as to why such a well-known and well-publicized example shouldn't be on the list, feel free to do so and see if there is consensus for its removal, without ruling on the validity of the label.

--Pinchme123 (talk) 22:58, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

I support this inclusion. Beyond labeling by experts, haven't international groups expressed this interpretation as well?

However, to be encyclopedic, and to be consistent with the present of the present article, internment centers or camps instead should be used.Dogru144 (talk) 00:56, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

I would say, this article makes clear in its introduction that it is intended to cover all internment camps, including the concentration camp subtype. Its definition section covers both more general internment camps and concentration camps, so I think examples of both (as well as the extermination camps that your own contribution highlights - some of the existing examples are of this subtype) are appropriate.

--Pinchme123 (talk) 01:13, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

Does not meet the definition in the fist sentence. "Internment is the imprisonment of people, commonly in large groups, without charges[1] or intent to file charges, and thus no trial." They are awaiting trial and are suspected of the crime of being in the country illegally, This is totally political, it doesn't need to be. I don't like the camps and I don't like our current government, but this is an encyclopedia. Oh and some sources saying they are not concentration camps. ^{[1][2][3][4][5][6]}2600:1700:1111:5940:8412:322D:289:42CB (talk) 04:12, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Many individuals - children - are placed in these concentration camps without authorities ever intending to file charges against them (see sources included for this item in the article). Others are placed in the camps prior to having charges filed against them and do not ever see the inside of a criminal courtroom, as immigration courts are of a different process (again, see included sources). Further, there is no "crime of being in the country illegally," as the act of being on U.S. soil without authorization is a civil, not criminal, matter.^[7] In all cases, these meet the definition from the article's introduction.

These concentration camps strictly meet the definition stated in the introduction. Further, experts on the subject also conclude that these camps are in fact concentration camps (see included sources). Would you like to present evidence of criminal (not immigration) trials for those held in these concentration camps?

To address your sources: the CNN citation is a biased opinion by a politician; Dr. Lipstadt's statements in the New York Post piece clearly refer to Nazi concentration camps, not concentration camps more generally, as a false interpretation of Representative Ocasio-Cortez's publicization of the "concentration camp" label; The Jewish Insider piece is a collection of three opinions, all of which are clearly aimed at falsely interpreting a Rep. Ocasio-Cortez's words, again, as being a direct reference to Nazi concentration camps; the Haaretz piece is behind a paywall, but its title and sub-title indicate that it is both opinion from a biased politician and, once again, statements by Dr. Lipstadt falsely interpreting Rep. Ocasio-Cortez's words as being a direct reference to Nazi concentration camps; and the final reference is, once again, statements from individuals falsely interpreting Rep. Ocasio-Cortez's words as being a direct reference to Nazi concentration camps.

There are no statements in the sources you've provided that show experts speaking about whether or not these are concentration camps. Instead every one of them is (properly) concluding that these are not death camps, a la Nazi concentration camps.

--Pinchme123 (talk) 04:59, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Looking at the two links included for justification of adding the Obama Administration to the line about the Trump Administration's family separation policy does not seem to back up the former's inclusion.^[8][9] Neither link states that children were separated from their families when taken to Fort Sill, so unless sources can be provided, then linking the two in this fashion would be inappropriate.

@Tobby72: I propose Obama Administration's 2014 event be separated from the Trump Administration's ongoing event, so that discussion of either/both can be carried out individually without complication by the other. The linked WP article for the Obama Administration's 2014 American immigration crisis likely has multiple sources contained within to inform a discussion about whether or not that event qualifies as an example, given the agreed-upon definition in this article. Given that Tobby72 is the one who most-recently included the 2014 event as an example, I am hoping they can help with this discussion.

--Pinchme123 (talk) 15:39, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

This article is not objective with regards to American Immigration Policy being characterized as a concentration camp. The article provides a definition, "imprisonment . . . without charges, or intent to file charges, and thus no trial". This is false. There is a trial and due process to determine if there is a legal right of entry and whether there is a valid asylum claim. ^[10]. Controlling the flow immigration is done by nearly every country around the world. Being held pending an immigration hearing is not a concentration camp. There has been no evidence of deplorable and inhumane conditions in these centers comparable to a concentration camp. Detention is based on citizenship status, not immutable traits.

One can believe that the actions are deeply immoral including the family seperation, but the concentration camp categorization and comparison is not appropriate.

Yad Vashem ^{[11] [12]}, the US Holocaust Museum ^[13], and Aushwitz Museum ^[14] have cautioned against comparisons with Concentration Camps that killed 6 million Jews and with the atrocities of the Holocaust. Most people associate concentration camps with the systematic extermination of the Jews. Language and categorization that echoes this comparison is inappropriate. I think the American Immigration Policy should be removed.

Condemnation of comparison and categorization as concentration camps: Chuck Todd- MSNBC ^[15]; Jake Tapper- CNN- ^[16]; Bill Hemmer- Fox News ^[17]; Holocaust Survivors condemnation of comparison of immigration centers to concentration camps ^[18]

^ 8 USC ss 1221-1232 ( https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1229a ) ^ ( https://twitter.com/yadvashem/status/1141267813249835008 ) ^ Senior Historian From Yad Vashem -(https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/what-exactly-is-a-concentration-camp-aoc/) ^ ( https://www.ushmm.org/information/press/press-releases/statement-regarding-the-museums-position-on-holocaust-analogies ) ^ ( https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/449237-auschwitz-memorial-responds-to-msnbc-host-chris-hayes-over ) ^ (https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2019/06/20/chuck_todd_why_arent_democrats_calling_out_alexandria_ocasio-cortez_for_concentration_camp_comments.html) ^ ( https://twitter.com/CNN/status/1144378806268026882 ) ^ ( https://www.newsweek.com/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-fox-news-concentration-camps-1444606 ) ^ (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/aoc-holocaust-survivors-respond-to-aocs-concentration-camp-comments)

I added disputed, but hope higher ups make this change. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.19.20.255 (talk) 08:31, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

I do agree that the U.S. Immigration System through time - the system as it was from 2016 and prior - may not be an appropriate example for this page's list, as those detention and processing facilities do not appear to have been previously described as internment or concentration camps by experts. Further, they may not meet the definition(s) as provided in this article, given that the system at that time did not appear to be used in a punitive way while simultaneously limiting detainees' access to the judicial system, but instead was used to help facilitate quick access to the judicial system. (No sources provided because, well, how would one "prove" this negative?)

However, with regard to this system from 2017 onward, experts have been rather emphatic in noting the changes in policies and application of those policies - including rendering it next to impossible to seek asylum through the so-called "official" channels available to those who present themselves at the U.S.-Mexico border - that have turned previous detention and processing centers into concentration camps. Given that the this change lines up directly with the change in U.S. administration, it would make sense that the system as previously administered was not an example of internment/concentration camps, but that the system as it currently exists is. For citations, read those already included in support of the entry "Trump administration family separation policy (2017-present)"

--Pinchme123 (talk) 18:57, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

After reviewing the sources used for the entry "Immigration detention under Bush and Obama," one was an opinion article and should remain deleted. Of the remaining three, only one of these - Some of the pictures of border kids that haunt me most are from 2014. Here’s why | Philadelphia Inquirer - describes any detention or processing facilities prior to 2017 as as even just potentially punitive in nature:

This quote shows only an evaluation of remarks by the president by a single individual. The other two remaining references do not describe any conditions nor circumstances prior to 2016 that would meet the definition of an internment or concentration camp used in this article.

Unless other citations can be provided for "Immigration detention under Bush and Obama" that supports its inclusion on a list of internment/concentration camps, this should be removed from the list.

--Pinchme123 (talk) 19:33, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

In follow-up to my earlier post, every single citation listed for the Immigration Detention Centers relies on one single author: Andrea Pitzer. She does not appear to have a PhD or even Masters Degree. I can find no basis to qualify her as an expert on this matter. She is not more credible than multiple Holocaust museums who have many experts with PhDs studying the field, Holocaust Survivors, and multiple journalists that I have listed.

There has been no evidence provided that the detained individuals will not receive trials for their asylum claims. On the contrary, the law requires they will, which i cited. Further, there has been an extensive Humanitarian aid package of 4.6 billion of dollars passed and on its way to the detained individuals. ^[19] This shows there is no punitive intent to inflict harm or a design for harm, but the country is merely being overwhelmed by the number of immigrants.

The Japanese were American Citizens and were put in camps because of their immutable traits. The European Jews (should have been citizens) and were rightful inhabitants of their land, they were put in camps (and killed) for immutable traits. The same can be said about the African Boers in South Africa. The undocumented migrants are coming of their own free will, unlike every other example, and are not being targeted due to immutable traits, but immigration status.

The only other expert in any of the articles J. Hyslop states, "all four of the early instances—Americans in the Philippines, Spanish in Cuba, and British in South Africa, and Germans in Southwest Africa—they're all essentially overriding any sense of rights of the civilian population." Every instance was a native population being moved based on their immutable traits. With the Detention Centers, a population is coming into a foreign country and is being asked to stop pending a hearing. It doesn't appear to be the same. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.19.20.255 (talk) 04:23, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

The conditions are atrocious, but having a picture of Holocaust survivors across from the detention center is insulting to every single holocaust survivor. The immigration policy can be deeply wrong, embarrassing, and even human rights violations without being a concentration camp. B

Regarding Obama and Pre-2017, you rely upon hearsay for establishing an encyclopedia article establishing consensus definitions of Concentration Camps. We do not know if this statement happened, nor do we know what the president meant by the statement. This does not seem appropriate.

I agree with the suggestion below to just put the list of examples article that doesn't highlight the Immigration Detention Centers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:602:8B00:2C60:5987:CC33:AF1A:8431 (talk) 04:14, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

I do agree that American Immigration centers should not be included in the examples because of the stated facts above. It seems like the consensus is that it shouldn’t be on the list. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hurledhandbook (talk • contribs) 02:31, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

With regard to U.S. centers from 2017 and onward, I would disagree. Multiple RS are used to justify their inclusion, with voices from multiple experts included in those examples (one source alone quotes from three separate experts). Further, arguments to exclude because of comparisons to Holocaust camps fail, given that multiple examples here come from other time periods and locations and are meant to exemplify the broadness of the category.

--Pinchme123 (talk) 03:07, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Agreeing with Pinchme123's statement above. The inclusion is justified based on multiple sources/experts. Doremo (talk) 03:12, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

I also agree with Pinchme123. Objectively and disregarding political bias, the practice seems to meet the definition and as such warrant inclusion. DoubleGrazing (talk) 08:04, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Clearly DoubleGrazing your opinion is biased. Stating you have no bias doesn’t mean anything. It clearly does not meet the definition of a concentration or interment camp. The article provides a definition, "imprisonment . . . without charges, or intent to file charges, and thus no trial". This is false. There is a trial and due process to determine if there is a legal right of entry and whether there is a valid asylum claim. [10]. Controlling the flow immigration is done by nearly every country around the world. Being held pending an immigration hearing is not a concentration camp. There has been no evidence of deplorable and inhumane conditions in these centers comparable to a concentration camp. Detention is based on citizenship status, not immutable traits.

One can believe that the actions are deeply immoral including the family seperation, but the concentration camp categorization and comparison is not appropriate.

Yad Vashem [11] [12], the US Holocaust Museum [13], and Aushwitz Museum [14] have cautioned against comparisons with Concentration Camps that killed 6 million Jews and with the atrocities of the Holocaust. Most people associate concentration camps with the systematic extermination of the Jews. Language and categorization that echoes this comparison is inappropriate. I think the American Immigration Policy should be removed.

Condemnation of comparison and categorization as concentration camps: Chuck Todd- MSNBC [15]; Jake Tapper- CNN- [16]; Bill Hemmer- Fox News [17]; Holocaust Survivors condemnation of comparison of immigration centers to concentration camps [18] There has been no evidence provided that the detained individuals will not receive trials for their asylum claims. On the contrary, the law requires they will, which i cited. Further, there has been an extensive Humanitarian aid package of 4.6 billion of dollars passed and on its way to the detained individuals. [19] This shows there is no punitive intent to inflict harm or a design for harm, but the country is merely being overwhelmed by the number of immigrants.

The Japanese were American Citizens and were put in camps because of their immutable traits. The European Jews (should have been citizens) and were rightful inhabitants of their land, they were put in camps (and killed) for immutable traits. The same can be said about the African Boers in South Africa. The undocumented migrants are coming of their own free will, unlike every other example, and are not being targeted due to immutable traits, but immigration status.

^ 8 USC ss 1221-1232 ( https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1229a ) ^ ( https://twitter.com/yadvashem/status/1141267813249835008 ) ^ Senior Historian From Yad Vashem -(https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/what-exactly-is-a-concentration-camp-aoc/) ^ ( https://www.ushmm.org/information/press/press-releases/statement-regarding-the-museums-position-on-holocaust-analogies ) ^ ( https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/449237-auschwitz-memorial-responds-to-msnbc-host-chris-hayes-over ) ^ (https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2019/06/20/chuck_todd_why_arent_democrats_calling_out_alexandria_ocasio-cortez_for_concentration_camp_comments.html) ^ ( https://twitter.com/CNN/status/1144378806268026882 ) ^ ( https://www.newsweek.com/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-fox-news-concentration-camps-1444606 ) ^ (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/aoc-holocaust-survivors-respond-to-aocs-concentration-camp-comments) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hurledhandbook (talk • contribs) 13:09, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Aside from the first sentence, this whole comment is copied above (posted originally by 73.19.20.255) and has been responded to there. As additional refutation of the sources Hurledhandbook cites that rely on the Holocaust to deny that the current U.S. facilities cannot be called "concentration camps," there are numerous news outlets that have reported on an effort by hundreds of genocide experts to have the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum retract their statement. Newseek's article: "More than 400 Holocaust, genocide experts think Ocasio-Cortez should be allowed to call migrant detention centers 'concentration camps'". And as I stated in my last comment, this article includes multiple examples of internment and concentration camps from locations and time periods outside of Nazi Holocaust camps.

--Pinchme123 (talk) 15:36, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Sorry but that article just says 400 “experts”. Who are these so called “experts”? They are nobody’s. They are professors at colleges. They are not experts. Ah, yes. The fabled “concentration camp experts.” We can only assume the “experts” she consulted don’t work at the Auschwitz Museum or United States Holocaust Museum or the Wiesenthal Center or, you know, any places that employ actual concentration camp experts who are sick and tired of AOC’s Holocaust comparisons. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hurledhandbook (talk • contribs) 16:38, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

All of us hiding behind fake names on Wikipedia are the nobodies, not 400 college professors. They are our intellectual and professional community. Doremo (talk) 16:43, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Here are some people who are actual experts on the holocaust and concentration camps. Also Bernie Sanders because he is Jewish, a politician and he is a democrat. Even comparing the detention camps to concentration camps is disgusting. https://nypost.com/2019/06/19/israeli-holocaust-museum-lectures-aoc-after-concentration-camp-remarks/

https://forward.com/news/national/426187/sanders-aoc-ocasio-cortez-concentration-camps/

https://jewishjournal.com/news/nation/300186/wiesenthal-center-calls-aocs-concentration-camp-remarks-insult-to-victims-of-the-shoah/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hurledhandbook (talk • contribs) 17:04, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

It should not be included because it doesn’t meet the definition of an internment camp. The definition of internet camp is “a prison camp for the confinement of enemy aliens, prisoners of war, political prisoners, etc.” These illegal immigrants are put in the camps because they are illegally crossing the border. This is therefore a crime and should be dealt with accordingly. They are not being put in the camps because of their race, religion, etc.. they are being put in for a crime. There is no mistreatment and it is not ill willed. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/internment-camp

https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/2019/july/leader-of-national-hispanic-christian-group-tours-border-facility-pushes-back-against-reports-of-mistreatment-of-migrant-children — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hurledhandbook (talk • contribs) 17:05, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

There's no legitimate criteria for what should be included in the "Examples" list here, when we already have List of concentration and internment camps. I suggest we remove the examples section completely, or eventually, we'll end up with everything at List of concentration and internment camps also listed here. - Themightyquill (talk) 20:52, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

My twopenn'orth: I don't see any harm in retaining this section, whereas I do find that helps to flesh out the point that internment/concentration camps wasn't just a Nazi practice. Just because there isn't clear criteria for inclusion doesn't suggest to me that we couldn't include some examples notable for their historical significance or currency. DoubleGrazing (talk) 08:17, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

I agree that the list should be retained. It is a relatively brief list of notable examples. Doremo (talk) 11:06, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Agree that the current absence of any defined criteria for inclusion, does not mean that nothing should be included. Key examples should be retained. MPS1992 (talk) 12:42, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

It should not be included because it doesn’t meet the definition of an internment camp. The definition of internet camp is “a prison camp for the confinement of enemy aliens, prisoners of war, political prisoners, etc.”

These illegal immigrants are put in the camps because they are illegally crossing the border. This is therefore a crime and should be dealt with accordingly. They are not being put in the camps because of their race, religion, etc.. they are being put in for a crime. There is no mistreatment and it is not ill willed.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/internment-camp

https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/2019/july/leader-of-national-hispanic-christian-group-tours-border-facility-pushes-back-against-reports-of-mistreatment-of-migrant-children — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hurledhandbook (talk • contribs) 13:37, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

I agree with DoubleGrazing, Doremo, and MPS1992. A shortened list of notable examples with a link to the main List of concentration and internment camps seems entirely appropriate.

--Pinchme123 (talk) 18:28, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

REMOVE the reference to the Trump administraion family separation policy. FIRST, is was NOT Trump's policy, but Barrack Obama's policy. Second, It is more than disgusting for a site such as this to reference a politically charged snark and besmirchment of our fine law enforcement from a clearly biased and bigoted person for a legitimate source as an "example". This is BullShit!! Take it OFF. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.198.104.34 (talk) 20:23, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

The entry is well-sourced to multiple experts and provides value to the page as an example of a contemporary internment/concentration camp system. Please keep your language civil. --Pinchme123 (talk) 02:42, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

The sources for 3 million Uyghurs being detained are quite old. Every estimate I've seen in 2019 - and this is an issue I follow quite regularly - has indicated it is thought to be around 1 million. 18 month old outdated sources should be removed and the most recent estimates should be given.

Philologick (talk) 17:33, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Why are supporting links for detention centers associated Trump admin sources from political blog (Huffington Post) and politics pages of Esquire?

Are detainees really being held arbitrarily and absent due process? In fact they are accused of actual illegality and are only being detained pending adjudication.

All of the supposed references on this go back to a single "expert" who I'm sure just accidentally happens to be an anti-Trump leftist. If we can get her reported throughout more and more of liberal media does that make that one person each more of a "consensus"? Hogwash. Get the politics off the site.

Leftist moderation of Wikipedia does not alter reality and the truth, it simply discredits Wikipedia. Crybaby politics at the long overdue the rule of law insults actual victims of genocidal internment like the Holocaust. Cpurick (talk) 12:27, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

The provided sources quote multiple experts, though one of them is quoted more than once (and wrote one of the sources). --Pinchme123 (talk) 18:42, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

I agree, the inclusion of the detention centers in any list as a concentration camp or internment, ultimately harms Wikipedia as an unbiased source and is pushed for inclusion by people with agendas and people with political motives, besides which the US detention centers don't meet the guidelines for inclusion as per the article's lead or definitions. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 19:06, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

As Sir Joseph is well aware, the matter of whether or not the U.S.-Mexico border concentration camps are appropriate for concentration/internment camp lists on Wikipedia was settled by an RfC at Talk:List of concentration and internment camps#RFC about U.S.-Mexico border camps. --Pinchme123 (talk) 19:14, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

As you're well aware, an RFC is only for that specific page, not for the entire Wikipedia. Regardless, I'm taking this page off my watchlist, please don't ping me. I've had enough of your bias. Congratulations on helping Trump win in 2020. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 19:18, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

References 23,24,25,26 (as of this edit) are on the Trump detention centers. Two of them are bylines by Andrea Pitzer. The other two both refer to an "expert" and in both those cases "the" expert is Andrea Pitzer. Thus, the entire "consensus" is ONE expert with an obvious political bias. Furthermore, you appear to be defending it with similar bias. It is what it is. This is an insult to anybody who understands what a concentration camp is/was. Cpurick

You are correct about two of them having Pitzer as a byline; given that she's a content expert, I'm not sure this is a bad thing. In one of the other two sources - the Esquire piece - two other experts aside from Pitzer are included: another historian and a sociologist. In the Huffington Post article, another historian is also quoted.

The page is currently protected, but once that is lifted, I can diversify the sources to address your concerns. The RfC I linked to before contains a ton of sources from a broad range of experts all using the label, and at one point another editor even compiled quotes from an additional five experts (not including Pitzer). Here's that list: [diff]

--Pinchme123 (talk) 19:37, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

I again propose that the bullet list of examples be removed entirely. Any short list, particularly one without any (let alone clear) criteria, will inevitably be controversial, POV, and arbitrary. - Themightyquill (talk) 15:34, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

When you last informally proposed to remove the list at the beginning of July, four editors (including myself) stated that they thought the list should stay, for varying reasons. I don't know if anything has changed in a month and a half to justify reversing course. --Pinchme123 (talk) 15:58, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Well, the article was, at least for a time, locked to editing over a dispute about what to include in the list, so... - Themightyquill (talk) 14:48, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

What to include in the list, not whether or not to include the list at all, so... --Pinchme123 (talk) 20:09, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Frankly, I am disgusted at the obvious influence of politics here. Disgusted. It borders on criminal that leftist academics steward so much of our knowledge.

The US Southern Border detainees are here in violation of law. Their detention is part of lawful due process, they are afforded representation and they are free to go if they want to leave the country. None of those conditions apply to any form of internment. There is no particular expertise or authority that comes from having a political agenda, just a demonstration of petty bitterness and poor sportsmanship among sore losers of a political race. Cpurick (talk) 19:17, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

I don't think the detainees are here, I think they are in the USA! MPS1992 (talk) 19:31, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

• Cpurick, your "anti-Trump leftist" happens to be a journalist who writes for a reliable publication with an editorial board and all the other things that an RS requires. They are not opinion pieces; perhaps you are not acquainted with with (investigative) journalists do. I don't care if you're disgusted by your own imagination ("It borders on criminal that leftist academics steward so much of our knowledge" is just a bunch of uneducated nonsense), but I do care that you mistake this talk page for a forum. See WP:FORUM. Ima leave a note on DS that are relevant (all of a sudden) to this field on your talk page, and let this serve as a public reminder to stay on topic and not abuse Wikipedia for spreading poorly informed opinion. Drmies (talk) 20:19, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Drmies

""your "anti-Trump leftist" happens to be a journalist who writes for a reliable publication with an editorial board and all the other things that an RS requires."

The two are not mutually exclusive. Lately a journalist with an editorial board is more likely to be an anti-Trump leftist than not.

The liberal moderation continues to ignore that detainees are in the US illegally and therefore lawfully detained under the rule of law and with due process. They are not held indefinitely but are each scheduled for adjudication, and that they are all free to leave the US and detention anytime, such that their detention is conditional only on their resolve to remain in the US, and not as part of some plan to detain arbitrary populations.

None of that is consistent with any other example of internment, and one does not need to be a leftist journalist to recognize that.

The assertion that the border facilities are internment is political. The suggestion that "a journalist" is necessarily apolitical is also political. The defense of the political mischaracterization of this "internment" is political. Denying that it is political is political. Use reason, and not politics, and remove the ridiculous example. Cpurick (talk)

Whatever. "Lately a journalist with an editorial board is more likely to be an anti-Trump leftist than not": Wikipedia has no room for your conspiracy theories. Drmies (talk) 14:32, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

It mixes up re-concentration camps : "accommodation for the non-combatants of a district" and concentration camps "prisons where people are deliberately held in harsh and overcrowded conditions possibly awaiting execution or slave labour"

These are not the same things!

It claims that the re-concentration camps in Cuba(Spanish), the Philippines(American) and South Africa(British) were prisons. Does any one have any good sources to support this?

--Cheezypeaz (talk) 02:28, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

The above appears to be a failure to understand Spanish reconcentrado; there are no "re-concentration camps" in English. Spanish reconcentrar means 'to concentrate, bring together'. Doremo (talk) 03:24, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

The contributor also seems to have invented his/her own definition of the term ("prisons where people ..."). We should stick to objective definitions, such as this from Merriam-Webster: "concentration camp: a camp where persons (as prisoners of war, political prisoners, refugees, or foreign nationals) are detained or confined and sometimes subjected to physical and mental abuse and indignity" Doremo (talk) 03:29, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for providing the definition of reconcentrar. I did not know this. However my point still stands.

The article defines internment as being imprisonment and concentration camps as a type of internment. Therefore concentration camps must be prisons. Were the Spanish, American and British camps prisons? If they were then OK. If not then the article is misleading.

The definitions I gave were based on what I remembered of the OED (V2) definitions. The correct definitions are...

OED v2 : concentration camp, a camp where non-combatants of a district are accommodated, such as those instituted by Lord Kitchener during the South African War of 1899–1902; one for the internment of political prisoners, foreign nationals, etc., esp. as organized by the Nazi regime in Germany before and during the war of 1939–45;

OED v3 (current)

1. Military (orig. and chiefly U.S.). A camp for the concentration and temporary accommodation of large numbers of troops awaiting active service

2.a. A camp in which large numbers of people, esp. political prisoners or members of persecuted minorities, are deliberately imprisoned in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities, sometimes to provide forced labour or to await mass execution.

2.b. figurative. Something likened to a concentration camp, esp. in being a place of oppression, suffering, and inhumanity.

The Spanish, American and British camps now seem now to fall under 2.b. "figurative" for the following reasons 1) they were for people who happened to be living in a particular area where there was military activity - they were not political prisoners, they were not members of a persecuted minority. 2) The British camps were not prisons, I doubt if the Spanish or American ones were. 3) no forced labour or executions.

The Webster definition is less exacting but it still contains "detained or confined" which anyone will read as imprisoned. This definition is so imprecise it means that all prisoner of war camps and foreign national internment camps are automatically also concentration camps.

I know this topic is very political. I'm arguing that we don't mislead our readers by trying to cram everything in to one definition. If we do that the Spanish/American/British camps are no longer concentration camps. ( and arguably aren't given the current meaning of "concentration camp".)

P.S. I was probably mislead about the term "reconcentration camp" by this article which contains the following "The English term concentration camp was first used in order to refer to the reconcentrados (reconcentration camps)"

Cheezypeaz (talk) 15:30, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

According to the cited definition on the article:

"internment is the imprisonment of people, commonly in large groups, without charges or intent to file charges, and thus no trial. The term is especially used for the confinement "of enemy citizens in wartime or of terrorism suspects".

Immigration enforcement and immigration detention facilities are by definition not internment camps. Unless they are designated so by a legitimate governing body of merit (the UN specifically panned the facilities, but did not designate them as refugee/internment/concentration camps), or if there is a peer-reviewed journal entry / body of work in an esteemed journal of history or related subject that specifically outlines why the immigration detention facilities are internment camps, then I will continue to remove this factually incorrect entries. --2600:387:6:80D:0:0:0:9E (talk) 23:03, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

Entry is well-cited, using Wikipedia-acceptable reliable sources that all call these concentration camps concentration camps and all rely on content experts to make that determination. The entry is therefore factual and a valid example for inclusion on this page. Do not delete again without specific reliable sources questioning their labeling as concentration camps. --Pinchme123 (talk) 23:17, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

Entry is well-cited, using Wikipedia-acceptable reliable sources that all call these concentration camps concentration camps and all rely on content experts to make that determination.

The entry is not well-cited, and the source is opinion piece written by journalists. The source you're citing does not cite any official designation by a governing body such as the EU, UN, etc. nor are there peer-reviewed publications that explain why immigration detention facilities are designated as "concentration/internment" camps. There are content experts that have made the determination that these are not to be called internment/concentration camps, including the official stance of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum (https://www.ushmm.org/information/press/press-releases/why-holocaust-analogies-are-dangerous),

I'll repeat myself again since it's apparently not getting through to you: "Internment is the imprisonment of people, commonly in large groups, without charges or intent to file charges, and thus no trial. The term is especially used for the confinement "of enemy citizens in wartime or of terrorism suspects". These facilities are by definition NOT internment/concentration camps since the people being held in them are being charged with the crime of improper entry. Q.E.D. I will remove the offending entry once the ban is lifted due to the fact that their inclusion in this article is factually incorrect.

--2600:387:6:80D:0:0:0:9E (talk) 23:56, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

I see above there is some discussion of whether or not to actually include the examples section, but, if it's kept, I think a mention of the camps in the Herero and Namaqua genocide would be notable as the first in the list that mentions Unethical human experimentation (there was already Unethical human experimentation in the United States on prisoners and slaves). Especially as it occurred at the start of the last century by the German Empire, which the genocide article shows has been linked to the Nazi's later experimentation it should go in the examples, if not in the definition along with the UK&USA camps. The article is a bit small and messy in general, but I don't know enough to really help in expansion, nor would I know where to start. What does strike me as odd is the Chilean & British-Kenyan camps going in before 'during the 20th century' rather than after (maybe in the paragraph of, but before, the Chinese re-education camps?) - ChrisWar666 (talk) 04:14, 25 November 2019 (UTC)