Talk:Islamic State/Archive 7
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Establishment Date
Just in case this isn't clear, allow me to verify and explain the reasons the 2013 date is not used and the 2014 date is considered the establishment date. 1. In 2006 the group was a insurgency within Iraq. The insurgents during the Iraq War were never considered an unrecognized by anyone throughout the conflict (not even here on Wikipedia). At this time they were still part of Al Qaeda, which is a terrorist organization. 2. With the end of the war in 2011, the insurgency continued, and eventually what would become ISIS would join the Syrian Opposition. This group already has its own separate article, including an article for the political entity formed for the group. Since ISIL was operating with the rebels in 2013, that date isn't used, as they were working with other members of the opposition. 3. At the very end of 2013, ISIL began to fight the other members of the opposition, which angered the leaders of Al Qaeda. Then, on January 3, 2014, the ISIL took complete control of Fallujah and, as the source provided says, proclaimed an Islamic State. Soon after the takeover, ISIL's ties with Al Qaeda were severed. ISIL was now not only in control of parts of Syria and Iraq, but was also acting on its own, with no further ties to either the opposition or Al Qaeda. It was effectively independent and acting strictly for its own self-interests. It was now an independent unrecognized state.
This is also reflected within the template section. The 2006 and 2013 dates belong either within the text of the article itself or within the war faction infobox. Should further explanation be necessary, I will provide more info. Toolen (talk) 08:18, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
- I'm sorry Toolen, but there are some serious mistakes in what you have written, this entity has always considered themselves to be a sovereign state, nothing unique or special happened in Jan 2014 beyond them taking over parts of Fallujah.
- 1. Firstly, the Islamic State of Iraq was declared in 2006 as a state. Contemporary media reports clearly show that this was their intention, regardless of whether any other parties recognised them (Much like their self proclaimed caliphate many years later).
- Reuters 18 October 2006: Dozens of al Qaeda-linked gunmen took to the streets of Ramadi on Wednesday in a show of force to announce the city was joining an Islamic state comprising Iraq's mostly Sunni Arab provinces, Islamists and witnesses said. "We are from Mujahideen Shura Council and our Amir (Prince) is Abu Omar al-Baghdadi. God willing we will set the law of Sharia here and we will fight the Americans," said a man who identified himself as Abu Harith, a Mujahideen field leader. "We have announced the Islamic state. Ramadi is part of it. Our state will comprise all the Sunni provinces of Iraq," he told Reuters in a telephone interview.
- As per New York Times shortly after this announcement: the group published a pamphlet laying out its vision for Iraq. It cited trends in globalization as well as the Quran in challenging modern notions of statehood as having absolute control over territory. Mr. Fishman referred to the document as the “Federalist Papers” for what is now ISIS. Under this vision, religion is paramount over administering services. Referring to citizens under its control, the pamphlet states, “improving their conditions is less important than the condition of their religion.” And one of the most important duties of the group, according to the pamphlet, is something that it has done consistently: free Sunnis from prison. “When you go back and read it, it’s all there,” Mr. Fishman said. “They are finally getting their act together.”
- Anyone interested can read a lengthy translation and analysis of this document from the Combating Terrorism Center
- 2. "since ISIL was operating with the rebels in 2013, that date isn't used, as they were working with other members of the opposition". This sounds like WP:OR to me. All sources agree that on 9 April 2014, Abu Bakr al Baghdadi released an audio message announcing the formal expansion into Syria as the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant.
- 3. All the source says is "On Friday, al-Qaida militants raised their flag over government buildings .....and declared an independent Islamic state" No quotes or attribution. No details of what this state is called. A more detailed source gives context: At Friday prayers, held outdoors and attended by thousands of people, a masked ISIS fighter took the podium and addressed the crowd, declaring the establishment of an “Islamic emirate” in Fallujah. There is nothing unique or unprecedented about this announcement, back in 2013 it regarded the Syrian towns it exercised exclusive control over as emirates . An 'emirate', as used by ISIS, refers to towns and cities that are run by an emir. Gazkthul (talk) 10:53, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
- First, who posted the last comment? Secondly, just to correct a slip, the date of the audio message referred to in 2. above and in the source quoted is 2013, not 2104. In that message, posted by al-Baghdad on 8 April 2013 (date given by ), al-Baghdadi announced the group's adoption of a new name, the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, so incontrovertible proof. --P123ct1 (talk) 10:10, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry, signed the previous comment. Thanks for pointing out the typo, it was 2013. Gazkthul (talk) 10:53, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
- I would like to know what reliable source or perhaps linguist told you that "emirate" in Arabic means "towns" or "cities"? Worldedixor (talk) 18:48, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
- Nobody told me that emirate means towns or cities, nor did I make such a claim. ISIS divides it's territory into provincial wilayah , with further subdivisions of emirates. When they took over the Syrian town of Azaz for example, they assigned an Emir to run it . This is quite common for Jihadist groups, when al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula captured the Yemeni town of Jaar, they (re)named it the Emirate of Waqar . I can't read Arabic to confirm for myself, but are you able to translate the following image that has been painted on ISIS controlled territory in Aleppo? Gazkthul (talk) 23:49, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, I can. Worldedixor (talk) 00:44, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry, I meant I have read a translation that it says Jarablus Emirate, Wilayah Aleppo, Islamic State, but I can't confirm that is accurate. Gazkthul (talk) 00:55, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- I can understand your limitations. Who told you that further subdivisions of a "wilaayah" are called emirates? Also do you know how the United States is translated in Arabic? Worldedixor (talk) 01:03, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- I had been hoping that you would be able to translate the above image, as that could provide one possible example. Gazkthul (talk) 01:20, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- The above image is not a reliable source. It is also very tricky to get into its translation without a lengthy qualifying explanation of the mentality, tribal culture and the variations of something that is not nearly as clearly defined as black or white. I was asking whether you knew how the United States is translated into Arabic as that may possibly indicate your ability to understand a much more elaborate explanation.Worldedixor (talk) 01:33, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- I had been hoping that you would be able to translate the above image, as that could provide one possible example. Gazkthul (talk) 01:20, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- I can understand your limitations. Who told you that further subdivisions of a "wilaayah" are called emirates? Also do you know how the United States is translated in Arabic? Worldedixor (talk) 01:03, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry, I meant I have read a translation that it says Jarablus Emirate, Wilayah Aleppo, Islamic State, but I can't confirm that is accurate. Gazkthul (talk) 00:55, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, I can. Worldedixor (talk) 00:44, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- Nobody told me that emirate means towns or cities, nor did I make such a claim. ISIS divides it's territory into provincial wilayah , with further subdivisions of emirates. When they took over the Syrian town of Azaz for example, they assigned an Emir to run it . This is quite common for Jihadist groups, when al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula captured the Yemeni town of Jaar, they (re)named it the Emirate of Waqar . I can't read Arabic to confirm for myself, but are you able to translate the following image that has been painted on ISIS controlled territory in Aleppo? Gazkthul (talk) 23:49, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
- I would like to know what reliable source or perhaps linguist told you that "emirate" in Arabic means "towns" or "cities"? Worldedixor (talk) 18:48, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry, signed the previous comment. Thanks for pointing out the typo, it was 2013. Gazkthul (talk) 10:53, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
- First, who posted the last comment? Secondly, just to correct a slip, the date of the audio message referred to in 2. above and in the source quoted is 2013, not 2104. In that message, posted by al-Baghdad on 8 April 2013 (date given by ), al-Baghdadi announced the group's adoption of a new name, the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, so incontrovertible proof. --P123ct1 (talk) 10:10, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
Gazkthul, Wikipedia doesn't consider every group that announces its intent to form a nation an unrecognized state. The argument you used above could also be applied to the Caucasus Emirate, which also declared the establishment of a Islamic state, and which is still considered a terrorist organization/insurgency. At the time of the 2013 announcement, ISIL was still affiliated with Al Qaeda and was also still part of the Syrian Opposition. If you require a more reliable source, here is a detailed account of the groups history and recommendations on US policy towards the group written by the United Muslim Association of America: http://www.umaamerica.net/sites/default/files/2014_06_19_UADV_TheIraqCrisis_FINAL.pdf Note how the document emphasizes the 2014 establishment date in Fallujah, while little is mentioned of the events of 2006 and 2013, which are defined as name changes only. I will go ahead and add the source to the article. Toolen (talk) 19:47, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
- Your source says "ISIL proclaimed to establish an Islamic state in Fallujah". I am not disputing that, whenever they take over territory, they seek to rule it as an Islamic state. This is no different to what they were doing in Iraq years earlier, when they were governing territory until the Iraq Sunnis got sick of them and rose up in the Awakening movement. They have established Islamic states/emirates in other areas they control like Raqqa, Syria.
- In a background piece on the group from the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, the author writes: excitement surged online over the prospect of an Islamic state following ISI’s announcement of its own establishment. Since the announcement, all major online jihadist forums list the number of days since the Islamic state was formed (2,813 days, as of June 26, 2014) Jihadists date the State back thousands of days, not a few months. Gazkthul (talk) 00:21, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, the jihadist do Claim they have ruled for that long, but the problem with that is that there is a difference between what the Jihadist say and what really happened. Consider, for example, the way they view the Iraq War. They claim they won the war and that they defeated and pushed out American military forces. The truth, as I'm sure you're aware, is not that simple. The outcome of the fighting is largely up for debate, but it certainly wasn't a victory for the insurgents. The casualty count for both sides makes that perfectly clear. Furthermore, the United States left of their own accord, as popular opinion had turned against the war. They were certainly not defeated militarily by the insurgents. The Jihadist have a habit of twisting and stretching the truth to suit their own goals and needs. While they certainly make claims of triumphs and conquest in their videos, what they say isn't always the truth. Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not denying that proclamations were made on those dates. I've read the documents, and I've watched some of the videos. They definitely declared that they had created an Islamic State, but the truth is that they were still just an insurgent group at that time. Other, outside sources state that they didn't have as much control as they claimed. We need to differentiate between the propaganda and the truth. None of my sources come from the ISIL. They are outside sources, and they are neutral in the current conflict. They have no connection to ISIL or its associates. One of the sources is even from the UMAA, a Muslim organization. Furthermore, I have already mentioned the fact that they were still part of Al Qaeda at the time of the announcements, and that they were also part of the Syrian Opposition, rather than acting on their own. That changed in early 2014. The group cut its ties to both the Syrian Opposition and Al Qaeda, and they completely took over Fallujah and the surrounding territory, in addition to the areas it held in Syria, which it was now in sole control of (it was no longer working for the Syrian Opposition and the other radical Muslim groups that have sided with the FSA). I also wish to point out that the UMAA document mentions the 2013 date, but considers it merely a name change of the insurgent group. I also offered another example of a similar declaration made by the Caucasus Emirate, which Wikipedia still considers an insurgent group, not a unrecognized state. Like the ISIL, the Caucasus Emirate announced the formation of an Islamic State, but the announcement and the actual formation of a state aren't always the same thing. In the ISIL's case, when the 2014 proclamation was made, they actually had control over a set geographic area at the time, and they were no longer affiliated with the other major insurgent groups in Syria and Iraq. They were also in the process of severing what little connections they had left with Al Qaeda. By the time Al Qaeda announced that it was distancing itself from the ISIL in February, the ISIL was already effectively independent of Al Qaeda. That is part of the reason why the article uses the 2014 date. The 2006 and 2013 dates go in the war faction infobox. Toolen (talk) 18:41, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
- I just don't see the events on 3 January 2014 matching the label of Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant declared. So I would suggest either that event be renamed to something else, or it be deleted entirely and we just have the Caliphate declaration, which is much more of a definitive and official date in terms of being an undeclared state. Gazkthul (talk) 03:22, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
- I agree with Gazkthul. Encylopaedias record events, they don't interpret them. History books interpret events, and the finer points listed by other editors above are to do with interpretation and history-writing, not writing an encyclopaedia. The plain event here is the audio message by Al-Baghdadi in April 2013 announcing the establishment of an Islamic state. Wikipedia should record that event and leave it to historians to quibble about when it actually became an Islamic state. --P123ct1 (talk) 21:33, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
- I just don't see the events on 3 January 2014 matching the label of Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant declared. So I would suggest either that event be renamed to something else, or it be deleted entirely and we just have the Caliphate declaration, which is much more of a definitive and official date in terms of being an undeclared state. Gazkthul (talk) 03:22, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, the jihadist do Claim they have ruled for that long, but the problem with that is that there is a difference between what the Jihadist say and what really happened. Consider, for example, the way they view the Iraq War. They claim they won the war and that they defeated and pushed out American military forces. The truth, as I'm sure you're aware, is not that simple. The outcome of the fighting is largely up for debate, but it certainly wasn't a victory for the insurgents. The casualty count for both sides makes that perfectly clear. Furthermore, the United States left of their own accord, as popular opinion had turned against the war. They were certainly not defeated militarily by the insurgents. The Jihadist have a habit of twisting and stretching the truth to suit their own goals and needs. While they certainly make claims of triumphs and conquest in their videos, what they say isn't always the truth. Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not denying that proclamations were made on those dates. I've read the documents, and I've watched some of the videos. They definitely declared that they had created an Islamic State, but the truth is that they were still just an insurgent group at that time. Other, outside sources state that they didn't have as much control as they claimed. We need to differentiate between the propaganda and the truth. None of my sources come from the ISIL. They are outside sources, and they are neutral in the current conflict. They have no connection to ISIL or its associates. One of the sources is even from the UMAA, a Muslim organization. Furthermore, I have already mentioned the fact that they were still part of Al Qaeda at the time of the announcements, and that they were also part of the Syrian Opposition, rather than acting on their own. That changed in early 2014. The group cut its ties to both the Syrian Opposition and Al Qaeda, and they completely took over Fallujah and the surrounding territory, in addition to the areas it held in Syria, which it was now in sole control of (it was no longer working for the Syrian Opposition and the other radical Muslim groups that have sided with the FSA). I also wish to point out that the UMAA document mentions the 2013 date, but considers it merely a name change of the insurgent group. I also offered another example of a similar declaration made by the Caucasus Emirate, which Wikipedia still considers an insurgent group, not a unrecognized state. Like the ISIL, the Caucasus Emirate announced the formation of an Islamic State, but the announcement and the actual formation of a state aren't always the same thing. In the ISIL's case, when the 2014 proclamation was made, they actually had control over a set geographic area at the time, and they were no longer affiliated with the other major insurgent groups in Syria and Iraq. They were also in the process of severing what little connections they had left with Al Qaeda. By the time Al Qaeda announced that it was distancing itself from the ISIL in February, the ISIL was already effectively independent of Al Qaeda. That is part of the reason why the article uses the 2014 date. The 2006 and 2013 dates go in the war faction infobox. Toolen (talk) 18:41, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
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