Talk:Jan Kochanowski/GA1

Lead

• I would mention the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth at the outset; while I think that describing him as "Lithuanian" is not historically accurate, there are scholarly sources which discuss his work within the context of Lithuanian culture (one example: https://etalpykla.lituanistika.lt/object/LT-LDB-0001:J.04~2008~1367164987803/; the English abstract is poorly written and I am not impressed by the article, but I think it's important for WP:NPOV purposes)
  • I have added a link to the Kingdom of Poland to the lead and a mention and link to the PLC to the body. I don't think it would be correct to stress PLC in the lead. PLC did not exist until 1568; Kochanowski spent most of his life in Poland, and the estabilishment of the larger state did not really influence him. I'd say that calling him a Lithuanian poet is very undue, and even discussing him in the context of PLC is rather weird. I've skimmed through the article you linked and the author himself admits that the argument about Lithuanian connections of Kochanowski he proposes is rather novel and far fetched. It is not known how long he spent in Lithuania, which he did visit (the article notes that an estimate of few weeks to under two years would all be reasonable guesses), that a few (small minority) of his works concerned Lithuanian lands, that one of his patrons was a Lithuanian mangate, and that his works have also had some influence on the development of Lithuanian literature. I think the latter is an interesting point that I'll add to the article (done). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:10, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
• shortly explain who Mickiewicz was, eg. "Adam Mickiewicz, a leading Romantic writer,..."  Done
• traveled "to" instead "in"  Done
• copy edit suggestion: "and eventually at the court"  Done
• copy edit suggestion: "Since 1563, he served as a royal secretary. By the mid-1570s, he had largely retired to his country estate in Czarnolas."  Not done - I prefer the first version, if you don't mind --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:20, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
• copy edit suggestion: "Kochanowski is most famous for..."  Done
• I think the longer m-dashes should be used in the last paragraph  Done - I hope, I copied the dash you used here. I don't understand all that dash-stuff, forgive me. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:20, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
• "regarded as masterpieces of form and style" -- this sounds a bit vague  Not done I am not sure how to improve it. Details are in article body, I think that sounds ok for the lead? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:20, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
• I think the lead could be expanded, as it feels somewhat short compared to the wealth of information in the body.  Done I've added a sentence from the text about "his main achievement". Feel free to suggest what else to add? PS. Please hold on this, I just realized the ref for this does not support that claim - we may have to reword or remove this: Talk:Jan_Kochanowski#"the_creation_of_Polish-language_verse_forms". PPS. Reliable ref for the claim found, re-added to the lead. I fear that may be all the time I have for today, however. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:20, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Youth

• sounds good overall
• instead of "closed" maybe "concluded" would work better  Done
• "It has been suggested that one of his travel companions in that period was Karl von Utenhove" -- can you briefly describe who he was?  Done

More to come Ppt91^talk 17:49, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Adulthood

• "In 1559 Kochanowski returned for good to Poland." should be "In 1559, Kochanowski permanently relocated to Poland."
  • how about "permanently returned"? Relocated sounds a bit weird to me, he just spend few years studying abroad. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:30, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
• "He spent the next fifteen years as a courtier, though little is known about the first few years of his activities on return to Poland." this sounds a bit clunky
  • Hmm. Not sure how to reword. Maybe User:Nihil novi will have an idea? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:30, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
    • In re-copyediting this article yesterday, I modified the sentence to read: "He spent the next fifteen years as a courtier, though little is known about his first few years on return to Poland." (That is, I changed "the first few years" to "his first few years" and deleted "of his activities", which is a rather Polish usage and superfluous in the English context.) Nihil novi (talk) 04:59, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
• "serving as one of the royal secretaries" -- can we briefly say what this role entailed?
  • The sources I read did not go into any details. But I did wikilink royal secretary, as apparently we have an article on this topic, so interested readers can read the general details there. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:30, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
• "benefices (incomes from parishes)" -- also could use a brief explanation
  • Isn't this done by the parenthesis? I've added wikilinks to Benefice#Catholic_Church and parish for good measure. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:30, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
• "In 1567 he accompanied the King during an episode of the Livonian War: a show of force near Radashkovichy." -- sounds really interesting, but should be discussed in more detail; what do you mean "by show of force" in this case? Was it a singular battle that was won by the King and was it of any political consequence?
  • From what I recall from the sources, there was no battle, it was a show of force. Wikilinked show of force which, apparently, again has an article :) There is, arguably, an article to be written that we don't have (there's an offline, I fear, and a bit old, academic source that's pretty relevant: K. Piwarski, Niedoszła wyprawa radoszkowicka Zygmunta Augusta na Moskwę (rok 1567-1568), „Ateneum Wileńskie”, t. IV, Wilno 1927, s. 256–286). I've added an interwiki link to a related military article that exists on pl and some other wikis but not yet on en. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:30, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
• "From 1571 Kochanowski spent increasing time at a family estate at Czarnolas, near Lublin." -- was Czarnolas historically important for his family and why did he choose to retire there? Ppt91^talk 17:50, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
  • I'd say yes and that's why. The sources I have accessed don't go into much detail, there are others but sadly, some of the best are not available online (). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:30, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Works

• "Kochanowski's earliest known work may be the Polish-language Pieśń o potopie (Song of the Deluge [pl]), which some scholars think may have been composed as early as 1550." -- sounds clunky
  • Coma has been removed; I am not sure what to do but I am open to suggestions. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:38, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
• "His first printed work, considered his first publication," -- the second seems redundant  Done
• "Upon his return to Poland," -- we should remind the readers the date of return to Poland  Done
• some names in Polish are not italicized  Done
• "The latter has been described as" -- could we say a few words about it, eg. "The latter, focusing on ... , has been described as"  Done
• "Some of his works can be seen as journalistic commentaries from an era before journalism existed," -- I think this needs to be clarified; is it seen as a social commentary or critique? I think this warrants a brief explanation on how "journalism" as a medium is understood in this context.
  • I am not sure what to do here, given the brievity of the source: . --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:26, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
• "expressing views of the royal court and aimed at the members of the parliament (the Sejm) and the voters." -- was he, in this commentary, a royalist who tried to persuade Sejm members? I wonder if this isn't more of a court-driven propaganda system than journalism in that case.
  • I think so, but see source above, again. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:26, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
• "They have been described as among Kochanowski's most popular writings," -- maybe just "became most popular writings"  Done
• Czesław Miłosz needs context; maybe "Czesław Miłosz, a preeminent 20th-century Polish poet and a winner of the 1980 Nobel Prize in Literature, ..."  Done
• "non-poetic political-commentary dialogue, Wróżki" -- this sounds a bit vague
  • Not sure how to improve it? Eventually we will have a dedicated article on this poem, for now we have a link to pl wii and readers can machine translate it with two clicks... --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:26, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
• dating of Odprawa... needs a dash fix
  • I am sorry, I don't know what dash to use. My keyboard has only one, I think. Same dashes are used in paragraphs above I believe. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:26, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
• "Czesław Miłosz calls it "the finest specimen of Polish humanist drama"." -- just his last name is enough here, as he was already mentioned earlier  Done
• prose suggestion: "Kochanowski's "Treny" (often translated into English as "Laments" from its original "Threnodies", 1580) is another of his works frequently hailed as a masterpiece. This poignant series of nineteen elegies mourns the loss of his cherished two-and-a-half-year-old daughter, Urszulka, a diminutive form of "Ursula"."  Done, shortened the end a bit, added an interwiki link to his daughter. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:26, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
• "As in the case of his light-hearted Fraszki, it has been described as enduringly popular and as the wellspring of a new genre in Polish literature." -- confusing syntax; prose should be improved for clarity
  • Sounds good to me, I am open to suggestions, ping User:Nihil novi. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:26, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
    • A more compact wording: "Like his Fraszki (Epigrams), it has been a perennially popular wellspring of a new genre in Polish literature." Nihil novi (talk) 05:56, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
• "Milosz writes that "Kochanowski's poetic art" -- possible to use another reference here? I think it's obviously important to include Miłosz, but it seems we're relying quite heavily on his opinions without discussing other critics; perhaps this could be a good source to add: Schulte, Jörg. "Jan Kochanowski i renesans europejski." Osiem studiów (2012). Harvard? Some of it is online but also should be easy to request scans of the most relevant chapter through a library (I can do that via NYPL)
  • Arguably there are many sources I have not consulted, although I think the article is reasonably comprehensive. Shulte is an edited volume collecting chapters by Kochanowski on random topics related to the book's theme (see ToC here). Considering Miłosz's prominent status, I think we are fine to cite him more than others, although there is much to add here if we wanted to go to the FA, which I don't think I will have time to do in the foreseeable future, I fear. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:26, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
• "Also highly regarded was Kochanowski's" -- by whom? Is it Polish critics/scholars?
  • We have an entire paragraph about this work, plus a dedicated article. Do let me know what is unclear here; the paragraph, per source cited (in Polish, offline, but I've scans) is summarized - the high regard is by his contemporaries, later readers (reprints) and translations. I've added a new ref with academic paper dediated to this and a quote about its siginificance, but they fit more in the later section. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:26, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
    • Perfect, thanks! Ppt91^talk 18:50, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
• "By the mid-18th century alone, it had gone through at least 25 editions" -- I would change to "By the mid-18th century, at least 25 editions of the work had been released." and separate the sentence so that the next one reads: "Set to music, David's Psalter became and enduring element of Polish Catholic masses and folklore."  Done
• "have been described as reflecting Italian lyricism" -- can you say more? Was this a characteristic of late Italian Renaissance poetry? I imagine this isn't related to Danto?
  • Unfortunately, the cited source (Miłosz, p.66) does not go into any detail. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:26, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
• "a critical analysis of Slavic myths" -- maybe better to say "Slavic mythologies"  Done +wikilink
• prose suggestion: "In addition to being a writer, Kochanowski also translated into Polish several prominent ancient classical Greek and Roman works" and link classical Greece and Rome to "Classical antiquity"  Done

Satisfied with the above! Ppt91^talk 18:50, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

• "Details of Kochanowski's life are sparse and come primarily from his own writings." -- does this apply to his biography at large? In that case, I would mention it much earlier.

Ppt91^talk 17:50, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

• • Fair point, moved up to the beining of 'life'. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:29, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

    @Piotrus Thanks--I moved it into the text, if you don't mind, as I think it flows well and might look better in regard to formatting this way. :) Ppt91^talk 18:53, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Influence

• "Kochanowski is commonly regarded as the greatest Polish poet before Adam Mickiewicz." -- per comments in lead
  • Do you mean we should explain who Mickiewicz is, again? I'd rather move the explanation added to the lead here. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:34, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

  That sounds good to me! Ppt91^talk 18:54, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

• Tadeusz Ulewicz should be identified as "Literary historian" or something similar to indicate his academic profession  Done
• Prose suggestion: "Tadeusz Ulewicz [pl] notes that Kochanowski is often regarded as the most prominent Renaissance poet not only in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth but across all Slavic nations. This standing remained unchallenged until the emergence of 19th-century luminaries like Adam Mickiewicz and Juliusz Słowacki in Poland, and Alexander Pushkin in Russia."  Done Please also note I've expanded this section with some other quotations/sources to reinforce the point that this is DUE and common assessment (AFAIK...). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:34, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

  Great, reads much better! Ppt91^talk 18:54, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

• language." -- quotation should come before the period per what I think are really odd WP:MOS rules...  Done
• "Kochanowski never ceased writing in Latin. However, his main achievement was the creation of Polish-language verse forms that made him a classic for his contemporaries and posterity. He greatly enriched Polish poetry by naturalizing foreign poetic forms, which he knew how to imbue with a national spirit." -- the comment by Davis about the influence of Kochanowski on Polish vernacular poetry should come after this sentence  Done

Satisfied with the above. Ppt91^talk 19:09, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Legacy

• "Kochanowski has been the subject of a variety of artistic works – literary, musical, and visual." -- I would change to "Kochanowski's oeuvre has served as a source of inspiration for numerous literary, musical, and visual artistic works."  Done
• "Jan Matejko portrayed him in a painting, Kochanowski nad zwłokami Urszulki ("Kochanowski and his deceased daughter Ursula")." -- needs the date, a few words about what the work represents, and Matejko needs to be identified (eg. "Jan Matejko, the 19th-century Polish history painter, depicted Kochanowski in an 1862 painting..."  Done-ish. Added date, and iwiki link to pl wiki article on this painting, which is noable. I did not add 'a few words about what the work represents' b/c the title I think is self-explanatory, picture is in the article already, and in-depth analysis should be accessible in the article dedicated to this work. Also note the addition of "a prominent", since Matejko is arguably Poland's most famous painter. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:55, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
• "Most of the recognition of his achievements has come from Polish-language artists and scholars; he has been described as little-known in English-language – and generally in non-Slavic-language – works; and, as of the early 1980s, had been passed over or given short shrift in many reference works – though, as early as 1894, Encyclopedia Britannica called him "the prince of Polish poets"." -- needs copy editing for clarity and to comply with WP:MOS
  • I am not sure how to reword it; ping User:Nihil novi. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:55, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
    • "While the 1894 Encyclopedia Britannica called Kochanowski "the Prince of Polish poets", he was long give short shrift in non-Slavic languages. The first English-language monograph devoted to him was David Welsh's, in 1974." Nihil novi (talk) 06:49, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

      @Nihil novi Thank you for your help! Ppt91^talk 19:10, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

• "The first English-language monograph devoted to him was published in 1974 by David Welsh." -- where is Welsh from? Also, could his monograph be of some more use for this article?
  • I've added a description for Welsh (google tells me he is "Translator from Polish to English, and professor of Slavic languages and literature at the University of Michigan"). His monograph would be a good source for expansion this to FA. I have not read it at present, but I did locate it in IA: . I've added the link to 'Further reading' where the work was already listed. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:55, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

  I am perfectly satisfied with this! Ppt91^talk 18:55, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

• "Czesław Miłosz writes that Kochanowski's first published collection of poems was his David's Psalter (printed 1579)." -- I am not sure this is relevant to legacy
  • Right, but it leads nicely to the rest of the paragraph? I am not opposed to this being moved, if anyone thinks it would be better elswhere. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:55, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

  Happy to concur with your choice. Ppt91^talk 18:55, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

• "A Jan Kochanowski Museum in Czarnolas [pl] was opened in 1961." -- I would change to "A museum dedicated to Jan Kochanowski was opened in his family's estate of Czarnolas in 1961." and I also think it would be interesting to say more about the goal of the museum at that time; it's post-Thaw Poland and Kochanowski did not seem to be as fervently promoted during Stalinism (while Mickiewicz certainly was), so I wonder if there is some more political significance to his museum being only opened under Gomulka
  • Interesting, but the sources I've read did not say anything about this. Probably something to discuss in the article on museum first? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:55, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

  @Piotrus No worries. This is definitely beyond the scope of GA, but just something that made me very curious about the political background here (especially after having spent an inordinate amount of time reading about the institutionalization of culture and the process of museum formation in the late 1940s and early 1950s Stalinist Poland). I'll ping you if I find anything relevant/interesting (and vice versa)! :) Ppt91^talk 19:00, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Another batch of resolved items here. Ppt91^talk 19:11, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Initial comments

@Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus I have some general, structural comments and I'd like to share them with you by you before we move forward. My first suggestion has to do with overall organization. It's by no means wrong to separate "Life" and "Work" into two sections, and I know a lot of biographies use that article structure, though in this case it feels a bit repetitive and perhaps more difficult to follow for an unfamiliar reader. What would you say to the idea of combining the two and dividing them up into periods? It could be: "Early life and education (1530–1559)", "Courtier career (1559–1571)", "Late years and death (1571–1584)"; these are just suggestions based on the chronology of his life I am familiar with, but of course each would have subsections to discuss the development of his career in the court of Sigismund-August etc. Content would stay the same, other than merging sections and removing any repetitions, but I think this kind of structure would really improve the article's overall readability. I'll leave the decision up to you, but I wanted to clarify this before moving forward. Also, I'd recommend changing "Importance" to "Influence" and "Remembrance" to "Legacy" which I think would be more in line with traditional naming conventions for artists and writers. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts. Ppt91^talk 19:25, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

@Ppt91 I am totally fine with the headings change. Regarding the section merge, I am unsure - I see arguments both for and against it, and I think in my GAs I usually split the content like that. This is how Zygmunt Krasiński, and Bronisław Malinowski, my two latest GAs on writers, have been structured. I'd prefer to leave this one in the same style, for familiarity - although if anyone else was to restructure it, I likely would not object. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:35, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

@Piotrus Thanks and happy to concur with your decision. In that case, what are your thoughts on using the naming convention from Malinowski in "Biography" then divided into "Early life" and "Career"? I changed the last two sections as agreed. I'll try to have the initial batch of detailed feedback ready by the end of the weekend. Ppt91^talk 19:22, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

@Ppt91 If you are suggesting adding the "early life" and "career" subheadings to Kochanowski, that's fine with me, but maybe "career" is a bit too modern in this context? "later life" might work, or "adulthood" or perhaps you will have a better suggestion? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:32, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

@Ppt91 I've added two subsections (youth and adulthood). What do you think? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:24, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

@Piotrus I think that works well! Sorry about my slow pace. Things have gotten even busier than I had anticipated, so I appreciate your patience. I hope to have a closer look by the end of this weekend. Ppt91^talk 19:05, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Take your time :) _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 00:21, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Status query

Ppt91, Piotrus, any news? It's been two and a half months since the most recent post here. It would be great to get this moving again. Thank you very much. BlueMoonset (talk) 17:07, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

@BlueMoonset Nothing happening. @Ppt91 has logged in since but did not comment here :( Restart? Semi-random ping to @Vanamonde93 as something that maybe you could consider taking over in a near future? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 00:05, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

My apologies. I have been preoccupied with a bunch of other things in the interim and I completely dropped the ball here. I am happy to continue GAR with a committment to finish my part of review by the end of next week, although I understand if @User:Piotrus wants someone else to pick this up. Either way, I hope it will get to GA because it's an important article. Ppt91^talk 00:16, 19 August 2023 (UTC) Ppt91^talk 00:16, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

@Ppt91 I am fine if you will resume, no worries. I just want someone to review it before it is failed due to a technicality :( _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 00:48, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

@Piotrus Same here, I would not want to have this failed. I'll have the review ready by end of this week. Thank you for your trust and patience. Ppt91^talk 17:44, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

@Ppt91 I had some time today and finished my replies/copyediting; over to you again :) _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:55, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Resolved items above as of this date Ppt91^talk 17:52, 31 August 2023 (UTC)