Talk:Jill Stein/Archive 2

I will attempt to reconstruct briefly the major changes made to the page, then reverted without any comment by Victoria Grayson, below.

SashiRolls has again added a bunch of tags throughout the article to parts that have already been resolved, sometimes repeatedly. The article should also lose its 'systemic bias' tag at the top, which is wholly unsupported (there is no difference between this page and that of Clinton, Trump, Pence, Kaine) and the rationale for the 'systemic bias' charge has been thoroughly rebuked (note that most of the complaints that underline the accusation of bias have been rejected in the 'Request for Comment' talk section). It's difficult to edit this page when one user repeatedly adds nonsense that goes against consensus, refuses to address the issues in a substantive manner and tries to rehash arguments over the same issue again and again. Nothing ever gets resolved. Pinging other regular users to politicians' pages: User: Neutrality, User: VictoriaGrayson, User: Activist, User: Volunteer_Marek, User: Gouncbeatduke. What's one supposed to do in this kind of situation? Snooganssnoogans (talk) 21:41, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

Request full protection status.VictoriaGrayson^Talk 21:46, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

You will make "media studies" departments and the press very happy by doing such a thing, though you won't be doing Wikipedia or Clinton (seriously) any favors that way... it's your choice Snooganssnoogans. SashiRolls (talk) 22:01, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

Could you do it? I'm not sure how. I've never made a formal request for anything. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 22:25, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, but I have no interest in causing Wikipedia or Clinton harm, and for the press and the media studies departments, the record is already here. SashiRolls (talk) 23:05, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

(SashiRolls, please try to keep your comments constructive towards improving the encyclopedia.) Snooganssnoogans, I'll address here your response in the other section above to make clear that I disagree with you that the bias charge has been resolved. Here's another example: the line "Jonathan Chait characterized this as the 'Plan to Stop Trump by Electing Him President,'" which uses a quote as a pretext for including mockery of Stein in the article. What in the Hillary Clinton article, for instance, is comparable to that line? The reason I am citing such examples as evidence of systemic bias rather than just fixing them as I see them is because I see them everywhere I look in this article. These do not appear to be isolated instances of bias which have snuck in here or there but rather something systematic.

I think there are substantial differences between the Kahan quote here and the Nyhan quote in the Trump positions article you cite, namely that the Nyhan quote uses more sober language and explains a topic that is a bit more obscure--we don't have a whole article about the effects of candidates making unfounded claims predicting election fraud. In any case, it seems a bit odd to use something you added a few days ago in a different article to justify something you wrote here. They may both be inappropriate according to Wikipedia policies.

To be honest, I am starting to get the feeling that your response to my concerns--instead of referring to policy or responding to my policy references--amounts to saying that I'm not qualified to comment because I don't regularly edit candidate pages. I'm sure you don't mean say that; but if not, I would appreciate more substantial responses to my criticisms. -hugeTim ^(talk) 23:25, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

At the same time, I do respect your experience (regarding what works to avoid edit-warring) and appreciate everyone's efforts here. I need to back away from this and so won't be responding further. Best wishes. -hugeTim ^(talk) 23:32, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

I just want to note that I have spoken in favor of removing the Chait quote. I don't think anyone has defended its use. It must have been accidentally restored when someone reverted some of SashiRolls' ridiculous massive edits in the past. I'll remove it. So the one example of systemic bias is something that's accidentally in the article and that we all agree shouldn't be here? Snooganssnoogans (talk) 23:44, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

I just used Nyhan as an example because it's recent and stuck in mind. It's incredibly tiring to recite every example of this when the pages are full of them, and when I've made reference to this again and again in different parts of this talk page. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 23:44, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

I'm not intimately familiar with Wikipedia' rules and rarely cite them. I just go by what's standard at the other major political candidates' pages, which are far more active and I'd assume those standards are developed with the Wikipedia rules in mind. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 23:44, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

For the record, although I see above where you acknowledged the Chait line was inappropriate, it looks to me like you never actually removed it and neither has anyone else since it was added on August 4th. That seems like evidence of systemic bias to me. Again, from my perspective, I saw something like that Chait line in every position-related section I happened to look at. But you may be right that I have just been unlucky in the few subsections I've chosen to examine. -hugeTim ^(talk) 00:04, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Sincere thanks are due to you for taking an independent look into the page, hugeTim (& also for tracking that edit down!). Snooganssnoogans has now reached his daily revert limit (once again). I will stop editing and let others provide quality source material and eliminate partisanship on the page. SashiRolls (talk) 01:42, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

There is only one editor that interprets the content this way. The fact that SashiRolls disagrees with any content that casts a critical eye on Stein, does not mean that it should be tagged in ways that suggests the content is unreliable. Please remove the tags. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 14:36, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

No, as the previous section makes clear, many many editors disagree with you. I had not noticed many of your factual errors, but after careful study of the talk page, I realized that you had managed to prevent editors from correcting them without addressing them. SashiRolls (talk) 14:55, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

Where are these "many many editors"? You even opened up an RfC, where it snowballed against you. There seems to be clear consensus.VictoriaGrayson^Talk 15:01, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

an RfC is for discussion. No discussion towards a compromise took place, except on the Reliable Sources Noticeboard; I have followed the advice of the person who responded there, who stated that the Science section of the article had major problems. SashiRolls (talk) 15:03, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

An RfC is used to determine consensus. VictoriaGrayson^Talk 15:06, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

Victoria Grayson should recuse herself from this page (edit: not the talk page, if she wishes to discuss, but from reverting), given her clear activism, as should you. Again, please see the section "Snooganssnoogans page on Jill Stein" concerning WP:OWN and the massive number of editors whose opinions you have disregarded.

See WP:IRONY.VictoriaGrayson^Talk 15:10, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

The eiron unrolls the scroll containing the 40K Snoogans signs

then holds up the post-it with the 40 SashiRoll signs

and wrinkles them into the rubbish. ^^

I am glad to see that the bot restored the systemic bias tag, though it did not restore the individual in-line disputed tags, one of which our Snoog had agreed to modify slightly, but has not modified since your revert. (the bit about Brexit, that I must admit I appreciated he had finally admitted he was distorting the truth about). Could you fix that as agreed Snoogans? Can I call you Snoogans, Snoogans? ^^

Let's be clear, concerning the title of the section: the issues have not been resolved: the systemic bias remains, but there will be others who will come by, and perhaps they will follow wiki policy as I have, be bold, and try to react. The list of disputed, under discussion, and POV tags that have been vandalised can be found on the history page for the time being. The eiron passes & flatters you fine. SashiRolls (talk) 17:31, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

After an admittedly quick perusal of a couple subsections of the article, I agree with the current tag claiming an anti-Stein bias. After a brief perusal of this talk page, the alternative wording suggested by SashiRoll (e.g. re Brexit) seems biased in the other direction. In other words, all participants on this talk page seem to be pushing a POV, focusing on point-scoring rather than trying to make the best encyclopedia we can, which is frustrating. It's hard for me to believe that there are not better sources summarizing Stein's record on the contentious issues under dispute in this article (maybe www.cnn.com/2016/08/16/politics/jill-stein-vaccine-gmo-science/?, but I don't have the time today myself to track them down and suggest neutral wording. -hugeTim ^(talk) 17:05, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

What precisely has an anti-Stein bias? The CNN source is already referenced on the page, and it covers all the issues that it's not referenced for in basically the same way as this wikipedia does. If you check the pages of Clinton (and her positions subpage), Trump (and his positions subpage), Kaine and Pence, you will see far more critical material on the candidates. This is the only page where users repeatedly try to remove such material. I have only applied the same standard that applies to all other politicians' pages (note that none of the users who delete this kind of material regularly edit the pages of major political candidates and consequently seem unfamiliar with the standards that are commonly accepted). On nearly every issue, Stein is quoted, and nearly all reliable sources are quoted when they provide context, so the claim that editors are infusing bias seems even more ludicrous. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 17:19, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

To clarify one concern about the current article, the vaccine paragraph goes on and on in an WP:UNDUE way--compare it to the single line on Donald Trump's page about his much more outlandish vaccine comments. This seems to be a case of WP:RECENTISM. That paragraph should be replaced by a summary in a few sentences, at most. Quoting the candidate or other selected sources can be done in a biased way, as should be obvious--but I'm willing to explain more if it's not. An example is where, in the Foreign Policy section, an errant comment about "ex-Nazis" in Ukraine is selected--not by an RS but by a Wikipedia editor--out of a pages-long phone interview conducted by "OnTheIssues.org" to highlight in an encyclopedia article. That entire Ukraine paragraph, in fact, is a case-study in the improper use of primary sources, bolstering an improper WP:SYNTHESIS of selected quotes from primary sources with a single secondary source: an opinionated blog post strongly critical of Stein. -hugeTim ^(talk) 17:42, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

As another, more comprehensive indictment of the bias of the current article, compare our Political Positions section with Ballotpedia's issues section on her: https://ballotpedia.org/Jill_Stein_presidential_campaign,_2016. (For those who aren't familiar, Ballotpedia is written by a professional staff of writers and researchers.) Their section provides a neutral and thorough presentation of her positions, whereas ours is selective and dominated by detailed presentations of her most controversial statements. -hugeTim ^(talk) 17:53, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

agree 174.19.224.236 (talk) 19:25, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

The length of the vaccine section is for three reasons: (i) because it quotes so much from Stein and the reliable sources. The quotes are there precisely because of a desire not to misrepresent or give the appearance of misrepresentation. (ii) Her position on vaccines is also far more nuanced than Trump's (equivocation, concerns about some issues but not others), and there are different claims that need to be put in context (toxic substances, corporate influence) and need the take of reliable sources. (iii) the issue is frankly one that has gotten her much coverage in reliable sources, so it's definitely not undue judging by coverage in the media. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 19:43, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

If you want to add more issues from Ballotpedia, please do! 19:43, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

I didn't add her statements on Ukraine, so I'm not entirely familiar with the issue. Note though that the pages of the Trump, Clinton, Pence and Kaine are full of positions and quotes lifted from interviews and by editors. There's nothing wrong with using primary sources, in particular when candidates are not big enough to get constant media coverage or when issues are important but still big enough for the candidate to warrant in-depth news coverage. So on that basis, I don't see any problem with noting that Stein has cited concerns about ex-Nazis in the Ukrainian government. I think it's hard to argue that it's not a salient issue, and that such a statement wouldn't be listed on the pages of all other major candidates in this election. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 19:43, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

Points (ii) and (iii) on the vaccine paragraph are well-taken. To the extent that we retain a lengthy vaccine paragraph, I'd argue it belongs more in the 2016 Presidential Campaign subsection rather than under the Political Positions section. It should be told as a narrative of the controversy as it has unfolded in the past few weeks since the DNC as media coverage on her began to focus on that--to the extent that is the case. (I haven't been following it much, myself.)

With regard to your reason (i), I'm taking that as an indication that you do think quoting someone's words is somehow automatically neutral. I'll grant you a desire to avoid "the appearance of misrepresentation," but such an appearance is often deceiving. To explain my thoughts on that further, I'll first quote (with some irony) from the relevant Wikipedia policy, WP:IMPARTIAL: "Even where a topic is presented in terms of facts rather than opinions, inappropriate tone can be introduced through the way in which facts are selected, presented, or organized. ... Try not to quote directly from participants engaged in a heated dispute; instead, summarize and present the arguments in an impartial tone."

Do you really defend the inclusion of the quoted sentence "The modal view is leave the freaking system alone." in this article? What purpose does the entire Kahan quote serve that wouldn't be better served by a straightforward statement of the scientific consensus on vaccine safety, written in an encyclopedic tone, with a hyperlink to the relevant Wikipedia article with more detail? My sense is that the purpose it serves is to push an anti-Stein POV. And that's just one of many examples of quotations that do so in this article--both quotes of Stein critics and Stein quotes selected and arranged to advance a POV. (An example of the latter is the juxtaposition of her statements on the FDA with facts suggesting its objectivity--a juxtaposition also present in the source WaPo blog post by opinion journalist David Weigel--as opposed to juxtaposing them with a reliable source substantiating FDA bias or a fact about Monsanto-FDA ties.) I recognize that writing a NPOV article is hard work, whereas criticizing as I am is relatively easy. What I'm saying is that we should keep the tag to encourage people to keep working on this one. -hugeTim ^(talk) 21:39, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

The immunization schedule is not created by the FDA.VictoriaGrayson^Talk 21:42, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

That may be relevant to a discussion about her comments on vaccines, but I don't see its relevance here on this talk page in a discussion about this article. For what it's worth, I personally disagree with her vaccine comments in question. -hugeTim ^(talk) 21:49, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for a substantive input, Hugetim. Regarding the quotes, it's just my experience that it's a pain in the ass to address controversial issues related to politicians without incorporating quotes. It sets the page up for endless edit warring in my experience, especially when there isn't a core team of editors on a particular page. Both for Trump and Clinton, we rely heavily on quotes in the controversial sections where there is room for a lot of interpretation (especially with Trump). So the quote-thing is fairly consistent with how we do it on other politicians' pages to avoid edit warring. Regarding the Kahan quote, that kind of context is all over other politicians' pages. See, for instance, the recent example of political scientist Brendan Nyhan's take on Trump's 'rigged' rhetoric on Trump's page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Donald_Trump), which is similar to Kahan's take on Stein's. While I think you raise valid concerns, these are all issues that are consistently applied to Clinton, Trump, Pence, Kaine. While one can quibble over what should be included on politicians' pages but I don't think anyone who regularly edits politicians' pages can say that Stein's page is distinct in any way from other major politicians. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 22:01, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia sez: "On Mother's Day 2016, Stein suggested that Clinton did not 'reflect the values of being a mother'." We're making progress... I appreciated your edit today, which wasn't in fact entirely a revert. SashiRolls (talk) 00:09, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

VictoriaGrayson has redirected the bias tag here, so I'll include a few examples recently deleted from the page in the process of clean-up:

• On Mother's Day 2016, Stein suggested that Clinton did not "reflect the values of being a mother".^[1]

• A PPP poll released on 30 July 2016 showed her trailing behind a non-existent candidate called "Independent Harambe" (referring to the dead gorilla) with 5% versus 2% in general election polling.^[2]

• In July 2016, Trump stated that a vote for Stein would be good for him: "I think a vote for Stein would be good — that’s the Green Party. Because I figure anyone voting for Stein is gonna be for Hillary. So I think vote for Stein is fine."^{[under discussion][3]}

The last was more difficult to decide then the first two, so if anyone would like to argue for its notability, they are welcome too. She also has added a pro-Green bias tag. That is her right.

The most recent discussion is farther down on the talk page.

SashiRolls (talk) 22:23, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

* I'm fine with removing Stein's charge that Clinton does not reflect the values of being a mother. It did get RS coverage and is part of the campaign but does not deserve a lot of attention.

* If this article is going to contain polling data (like the pages of Trump and Clinton), then it is relevant to put her polling numbers in context. That she fails to poll ahead of fictional independent candidates is relevant. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 22:04, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

There's really no need for such "context" here. People understand what 2% polling means. I'm sure Stein supporters could also point to examples of where she polled ahead of so-and-so in a particular poll. Choosing a poll in which she was farcically polled against a name given sympathetic coverage in recent media is cherry-picking and clearly undue. 71.13.175.226 (talk) 22:46, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Yes, there's a link on the page to the discussion that points out equally unflattering and weird comparisons with her opponents. The number of people polled who considered that a specific candidate could, in fact, be Lucifer, was also in the source material. You linked to that context earlier in discussion, Snoogansnoogans

Source: page two. To fact-check that another candidate is thought to be Lucifer by 33% of those polled, ctrl-f) ... SashiRolls (talk) 00:40, 19 August 2016 (UTC) this is not noteworthy or Wikipedia-worthy IMO. SashiRolls (talk) 01:58, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

* Trump's statement about the third party candidate is clearly relevant as part of the campaign. It is the one time that a candidate of the two major parties has spoken about the Green Party. Hard to argue that it's undue. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 22:04, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

I agree on the significance of the Trump statement, but there's no reason for a full quote. Let's replace it with "Trump himself has stated that a vote for Stein would be good for him because it likely takes away a vote for Hillary Clinton." We can put the quote in the footnote, if anywhere. 71.13.175.226 (talk) 22:46, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

sounds reasonable. SashiRolls (talk) 00:42, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Though I mostly want to ask which Republican candidate wouldn't say such a thing, ... SashiRolls (talk) 02:00, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

(for purposes of understanding the discussion below, note that VictoriaGrayson changed the title of this section at 19:37, 18 August 2016)

Stein has repeatedly said she doesn't believe in the immunization schedule. See HERE or HERE. Do a CTRL+F for "schedule".VictoriaGrayson^Talk 17:12, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

You need a source that says that, otherwise it is original research. TFD (talk) 17:50, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Did you not see the links I provided?VictoriaGrayson^Talk 17:53, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

What are you talking about? I did the same CTRL+F on our article and found the mention about the schedule. What do you want to be different about that paragraph? 71.13.175.226 (talk) 18:23, 18 August 2016 (UTC) (p.s. this IP is a named user already involved in the discussions above, but I'd rather not explicitly say who.)

Why are you editing as an IP? An accident?VictoriaGrayson^Talk 18:53, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

I've locked myself out of my account to try to prevent myself from spending too much time on this. Not working, but I don't currently know the password. 71.13.175.226 (talk) 19:20, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Is this the section explaining why you placed a tag on the article alleging a strong, systemic pro-Stein bias in the article? I think more evidence is needed to even begin a discussion of such a claim. Please explain your tag further. Alternatively--and I say this as someone who has been tempted to do so in comparable circumstances--I'd ask you to consider whether you might be disrupting Wikipedia to make a point with that tag. 71.13.175.226 (talk) 19:47, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, I read the first link you provided, the second is under a paywall. And it does not say "Stein has repeatedly said she doesn't believe in the immunization schedule." TFD (talk) 19:49, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Regarding her statements yesterday the second article says:

After a series of confusing answers that echoed some anti-vaccine slogans, Stein gave her clearest answer to the contrary.

So even as of yesterday, Stein is still pandering to anti-vaxers.VictoriaGrayson^Talk 20:49, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

The title says "Greens clean up remarks." You are beginning to show clear signs of paranoia. 174.19.224.236 (talk) 21:09, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Why is Stein still echoing anti-vaxxers?VictoriaGrayson^Talk 21:27, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Your edit does not say that is "echoing" anti-vaxers, it says "Stein has repeatedly said she doesn't believe in the immunization schedule." As for why a reporter says Stein is "echoing" comments by anti-vaxers, I do not know. It could have to do with the candidate he supports but it is up to you to provide a source that tells us. Call me naive, but I would have thought that an argument based on actual facts would have been a better approach for the Clinton campaign. (Like Jill can't win, vote for Hill.) TFD (talk) 04:57, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

The source also editorializes that the author thought some of her comments were "confusing". Why would a Washington Post writer be confused by Stein? Because it's the Washington Post. (And since you don't consider the possible POV of a given source, will you please also include in this article that Stein is a CENSORED.) 174.19.224.236 (talk) 06:14, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

You have added no proposed text to the page VictoriaGrayson? What specifically do you want to add? Unless I'm mistaken (due to the disruptive reverts) our wikipedia text already includes information about the fact that JS had concerns about vaccines, as did HRC. Over time, these concerns have become less acute as procedures have improved. As your second source makes clear, this "schedule" concern dates from when she was working as a practicing doctor.SashiRolls (talk) 10:23, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Is this thread just a dilatory tactic ? SashiRolls (talk) 10:21, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

(subject edited 19 Aug 2016 01:33 following Victoria Grayson's example)

Since June 8, 2016 this page has (quite largely) been owned by Snooganssnoogans. A cursory look at the history of the last 1250 edits makes clear that he is by far the dominant editor on this page and that anybody with whom he disagrees will be reverted (with the aid of his ally Victoria Grayson). There is an open "request for comment" where his most recent elimination of dissent is detailed. In general, Snooganssnoogans wishes to paint Stein in the most unflattering light possible and suppresses evidence that conflicts with this project. Since copyright information and the author's name generally figure at the front of print articles and books, it seems only appropriate to place this warning here, since the previous claim that this article read like a campaign brochure is far from correct today. At the moment the article has a number of factual errors or examples that have been pointed out to him by several different editors on the talk page (here, here, here, here, here, here, here, and here) but Snooganssnoogans, along with a few other editors (including an administrator and a person with rollback privileges (Cf. here)), do not seem to wish to relinquish any control over this article. There is also comment on this issue at the Reliable Sources Noticeboard, and it has likewise been posted to the Neutral Point of View Noticeboard though it has not received comment there as of this writing.

"If someone else is claiming "ownership" of a page, you can bring it up on the associated talk page." (Wikipedia: Ownership of content)

In the past few days, some constructive work has been going on, thanks to all involved. I would like to back off of my tone above. Really. Then I stumble across a sentence about a gorilla... (I'm sorry if that feels snarky, but to understand, please check out the page diff here (exchange between VictoriaGrayson & Eleutherius, linked to by Snooganssnoogans to see this has been discussed over and over again, and yet somehow has never dropped) Let's make a better page without any gorillas on it. Here was the last time that he removed the context concerning the poll, while saying he was adding a poll in the comment summary.SashiRolls (talk) 01:33, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Please place your request at Wikipedia:Requests for page protection. You don't request it here. Eden5 (talk) 01:40, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

The result of User:Snooganssnoogans's request can be seen here. I have followed through on the administrator's suggestion and have filed a complaint on the edit warring noticeboard, in an effort to free the page for progress towards finding a solution. Peace to all involved. SashiRolls (talk) 02:43, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

Let me just say that I used to have great respect for Wikipedia and even donated, but the tone of this article is outrageous when you get to the 2016 election. You have an entire section called "on third party chances" AND YOU DON'T EVEN PUT HER STATEMENT THERE, despite the fact that she has been asked about it multiple times in interviews and responded clearly. Literally ALL of the quotes are against her, none of it supports her - how is that neutral? Even if the Nadar spoiler myth is true in your mind, how is Trump's opinion a credible source? There isn't a heading that says this on Gary Johnson's page. If you're going to talk about Bernie endorsing Hillary, why don't you mention that afterward, donations to the Green Party skyrocketed? THAT is an indication of a coming big jump in her numbers. http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/Jill-Stein-Donations-Up-by-1000-After-Sanders-Endorsed-Clinton-20160713-0030.html By the way, she has also been endorsed by Kshama Sawant.

As for the Harambe poll inclusion...it does not ask Hillary vs. Trump vs. Gary vs. Jill vs. Harambe; Harambe and Jill do not appear in the same question at any time. Also the same poll also reported that 18% of respondents think Hillary Clinton has ties to Lucifer; 21% weren't sure. But I don't see that interesting tidbit on her page when this "poll" came out! In fact, in the question, Trump and Hillary ARE directly competing with Harambe in the poll, not Gary or Jill, and in THAT poll 9% say Harambe or not sure when it's only Trump or Clinton. This poll seems terrible considering that it asks favorability ratings for Harambe but not Gary or Jill. Obviously obfuscated, as someone above mentioned. Then AGAIN you mention the "third party spoiler" idea, casually mentioning that third party support declines as the election draws closer. This should be on the Green Party and Libertarian Party pages, not Jill's.

You put an old quote about wifi under the education section. I have no problem with that, but it doesn't need its own section later in the article. Additionally, you should put it in context and link to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_IARC_Group_2B_carcinogens which includes wifi under "possibly carcinogenic." She agrees with the World Health Organization and that should be noted.

I find it interesting that you also add context when it suits an anti-stein tone. For example, after her comment on Obama committing war crimes, you don't mention Abdulrahman al-Awlaki. But you do provide a Guardian quote about how anti-vaxxers are against schedule changes when she mentions them. The Clinton bias is especially apparent when there is no mention of Hillary's previous anti-vax pandering in 2007 ("I am committed to make investments to find the causes of autism, including possible environmental causes like vaccines") and yet Jill has an entire section devoted to her "pandering" even though they said the same thing. Vaccines are mentioned nowhere on Clinton's 2008 presidential run page, political positions page, or main page.

The criticism of "11 of 15 are doctors who don't work for pharmaceutical companies" is outright propaganda. There should be the context of the "revolving door" here. Kathryn M Edwards, the current head of that board, "served as a Member of Clinical Advisory Board at NexBio, Inc. since April 2009." So she's "not working for them", she's just a member of the advisory board for a biopharmaceutical company that is being sued by California for fraud. https://www.fbi.gov/contact-us/field-offices/sandiego/news/press-releases/ansun-biopharma-to-pay-more-than-2-million-for-overbilling-the-u.s

GMOs are generally safe, she wants a moratorium on specific, new, unstudied ones. That should be clarified. The 2012 comment on reduced space exploration spending should be on her 2012 page. Frankly, the fact that the Reparations for Slavery is much bigger than even the other unnecessary headings is a case in point that this section is intended to scare people with how "radical" she is. Again, no context that we've given reparations to Asian Americans in the past. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.35.185.245 (talk) 21:06, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Welcome! You are obviously a much more knowledgeable editor than I am on the subject, and I appreciate your comments. Would you be uncomfortable adding two or three sentences to the page itself in the interest of balancing perspective? I'd like to see quality material being added while we're vetting the less solid material. The point of Wikipedia is to acccumulate pertinent info and leads for those who want to learn more about a subject. Not to prechew the Post, Tablet, and yesterday's reddit-tweets for them. Very helpful work, above. Again, thank you. SashiRolls (talk) 22:56, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Agree the is one of the most slanted articles I've read. This reads like an attack ad, especially the political positions section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:602:400:F27D:10D6:5491:DC1D:321D (talk) 00:48, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

Why are so many specifics of the campaign here on her personal page and there is almost nothing on her actual campaign page? I started to edit the campaign page but then it is totally redundant with her personal page. The many details about health positions have an obvious tone against her and inoculate readers against considering the page as a neutral source. She is being widely covered in mainstream news, so why are the editors who are typing so many words about anti-vaxxers not doing the most basic citations of the key positions of the campaign? Aside from adding all on the wrong page. GreenIn2010 (talk) 00:49, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

The political positions of all major candidate (Clinton, Trump, Pence, Kaine) are on their main article. The anti-vaxxer comments are being covered by reliable news sources (includ. WaPo and the Guardian), so I don't understand what your point is about mainstream news and the focus on the anti-vaxxer stuff. If you want to add more political positions, go ahead. There's an interesting thing happening here where a string of Green Party-affiliated users and IP numbers complain about there being a dearth of her political positions, yet they can't be arsed to edit in the unspecified missing positions by themselves. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 10:13, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

Sounds more like RationalWiki at the end...(honestly, the difference is slight). If we are to keep the third party spoiler section, Democracy Now! has great interviews I would like to quote from, especially between Robert Reich/Chris Hedges and Kshama Sawant/Rebecca Traister on rejecting corporate duopoly. There should also be discussion of media bias, particularly in the wake of the DNC scandal and DWS's resignation. Stein was literally asked if she believed in God during the CNN Green Town Hall, which seemed planted IMO. As recently as 2012, Gallup polls show that the MOST damaging categories a presidential candidate can be in are atheist (#1), then Muslim (#2!). I hope it wasn't deliberate attempt to turn off centrist voters, but it's hard to believe there's no connection between a question like that and the fact that CNN's parent company is a major Hillary donor. I don't understand why fact like these are dismissed as conspiratorial or unrealistic. Does Wikipedia really believe that CNN wouldn't try to "gotcha" Jill Stein considering that they want Hillary to win? That's naive. Wikipedia should not follow CNN in confusing objectivity with neutrality. It goes against the very principle the site stands for - democratic, unfiltered, objective truth without bias or "top-down" editing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.35.185.245 (talk) 01:09, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

See WP:VNT.VictoriaGrayson^Talk 04:36, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

"Debbie Wasserman Schultz was forced aside by the release of thousands of embarrassing emails among party officials that appeared to show co­ordinated efforts to help Clinton at the expense of her rivals in the Democratic primaries. That contradicted claims by the party and the Clinton campaign that the process was open and fair for her leading challenger, Sen. Bernie Sanders." The emails specifically mention Hillary's people asking if they could "get someone to ask his belief," as an atheist would turn off Southern voters, so I don't know why you're arguing semantics (for myself truth = verifiable) to defend the exclusion of campaign finance data or correspondence leaks. If you present that email, and then the town hall theism question - on a network with a demonstrated conflict of interest (CNN) - any reasonable person will draw the logical conclusion. My journalism professor explained that if you present all the information and organize it well, you won't unintentionally editorialize; the evidence tells the story. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/hacked-emails-cast-doubt-on-hopes-for-party-unity-at-democratic-convention/2016/07/24/a446c260-51a9-11e6-b7de-dfe509430c39_story.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/wikileaks-dnc-bernie-sanders_us_579381fbe4b02d5d5ed1d157

That VNT page mentions that Wikipedia's other core value is neutral point of view, and I've already outlined multiple instances of how this article violates that principle by excluding pro-Jill sources to the point of unfairness. Why is Clinton's VERIFIED coordination with DWS to win the nomination not included on her 2016 campaign or main page? It's not even on the page for the Democratic Party presidential primaries 2016! But I can't edit her page...How do we create a Spanish language version of Jill Stein's page? I can write it and I'd like to clean up this one.71.35.185.245 (talk) 10:07, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

WOW indeed. This is an excellent (albeit partial) summary of what is wrong with this page. 174.19.243.30 (talk) 05:46, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia uses reliable sources. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 10:13, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

So many problems with this user's comments:

* Stein's comments about the lesser evil etc. is already covered. The campaign pointing to website polls as evidence of a coming lift is also mentioned. Trump's comments are not presented as an authoritative academic source, nor did he speak about Gary Johnson, so I fail to understand why it should be included there. If you have problems with the Gary Johnson page, I suggest you start to edit it. TeleSur is not a reliable source (how come every other user who wants to turn this article into a mess has a history of exclusively editing the pages of the Green Party and/or thinks that Venezuelan state propaganda is a reliable source?). I completely disagree with SashiRolls creating an entire subsection on 'third party chances'. All the content there should just be under the 2016 race subsection. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 10:05, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

* I'm fine with removing Harambe per discussion with one of the IP numbers above. Reliable sources citing academic research to put polling in context is vital. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 10:05, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

* Regarding Wi-Fi, this article quotes Stein and quotes reliable secondary sources. If Stein has updated her views on Wi-Fi, please add that clarification. If reliable sources say that Stein's Wi-Fi concerns are valid, add that also. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 10:05, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

* Both Clinton and Obama equivocated on vaccines in 2008 but have since strongly rejected the view that vaccines could be or are harmful. If you want to add Clinton's 8yr old position, go ahead. If Stein outlines why she thinks Obama is a war criminal, go ahead and add it. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 10:05, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

* The Washington Post is a reliable source by any standard. When you say that WaPo is "outright propaganda", yet promote the use of actual Venezuelan state propaganda, it reflects poorly on you. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 10:05, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

* The other candidates' page include positions that precede the 2016 race. If Stein has updated her views on GMOs, reparations and scientific research spending, please update the article. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 10:05, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

I was referring to the "third party spoiler" section, I agreed it should be removed, as it isn't on GJ's page. RT's original source is US Uncut's phone interview with Stein herself. http://usuncut.com/politics/jill-stein-campaign-surge/ But this is exactly what I mean about bias, acting as if CNN supporting Hillary's campaign financially isn't a conflict of interest/isn't worth mentioning...that's clearly not showing the whole picture. Like RT, Fox and CNN exist exclusively as propaganda for their respective parties yet are top primary sources. WaPo is owned by Jeff Bezos, CEO of another known corporate Hillary donor. I can't believe this outrage at the suggestion that these corporations aren't spinning in favor of their preferred candidate - if they are, obviously they won't say that. Regardless, I wasn't questioning the veracity of WaPo's "only 2 of 15 *currently* work for pharmaceutical co." stat, just pointing out that the head of the board is one of the corporate employees and it is very likely that many of the doctors *previously* worked for Big Pharma, as HRC has previously worked for Wal-Mart and is now fueled by corporate megadonors. What I disagreed with was WaPo's (and the page's) implication that most of the doctors not *currently* working for corporations is good enough support to counter Stein's statements about that the revolving door of lobbyists in pharmaceuticals as a conflict of interest, which is what they're attempting to do without reporting how many of them used to work for Big Pharma. It's lazy journalism. More research is necessary to counter Dr. Stein's professional knowledge of corporations hand picking medical professionals to suit their needs. There is historical basis in corporate cronies hijacking health policy, from the tobacco industry to climate change to lead.^[1] Snooganssnoogans if you think I'm such an anonymous charlatan, I'll let you fix this mess, as I've seen your condescension on this talk page and have no desire to edit war with a disrespectful mod. I've wasted enough time airing my grievances with this article already, but I'll check the new version so I can learn what "neutral" means on Wikipedia these days, from the master themselves. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.35.185.245 (talk) 12:34, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

Section 3.2.2.1 "On third party chances" does not fit into the topic.

It is not about Jill Stein, but vaguely about third parties.

If this needs to be brought up at all, it might be better to replace the whole section with a link, maybe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_party_(United_States)

Or if it should remain, it needs to have a disclaimer that nowhere does Duverger's Law state or imply that the two dominant parties will continue to be the Republican Party and the Democratic Party, and in fact several times in US history dominant parties have dwindled to nothing.

I saw a claim that the Duverger's Law section has been discussed and reached final approval in the Talk section, but I did not find that discussion. Jethomas5 (talk) 15:16, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

It is discussed in "Editors continue to remove inconvenient content and context". If polling data is to be mentioned, it is valid to put it in context by using reliable sources. If the reliable source is misrepresented or if crucial context is missing from the piece, please add it. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 15:31, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

Oh, that. You said it belonged and your friend agreed. Now you have modified it somewhat. I think this whole thing could better be replaced by a link to the Wikipedia article on Third Parties in the USA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_party_(United_States)

Do you disagree? Jethomas5 (talk) 18:57, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

I disagree with just linking to 'Third Party'. The section looks fine as is. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 19:06, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

It is redundant, repeating allegations about third parties by various sources. We do just as well to simply link to the Wikipedia discussion that says the same things. I tried editing it to show how I would like it. Jethomas5 (talk) 19:23, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

Releasing a two-page summary of the tax returns for one year is generally not considered a release of tax returns. See, for instance, PolitiFact rating Sanders's claim that he has released his past tax returns as "false" for precisely this reason. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/apr/06/bernie-s/bernie-sanders-has-released-few-tax-returns-compar/ Snooganssnoogans (talk) 18:05, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Indeed, it is not a release of tax returns.VictoriaGrayson^Talk 23:19, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Releasing page 1 and 2 of your 1040 is the core of the tax report. It is sufficient to see how much was earned, who earned it and how. Look at your last tax return and you will see all the core info is on the first 2 pages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AlejandroMS (talk • contribs) 20:33, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

The reliable source PolitiFact disagrees with you. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 20:38, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

1. In the interest of improving Wikipedia, I would like to point out that this sentence has been orphaned by the addition of intermediate material. A few comments about the citation: first, it references a tweet; second, it refers to an on-line multiple choice quiz; third, there is not mention on HRC's page of her match with Jill Stein. Is this notable for Stein but not for Clinton?

Is anyone in favor of keeping this citation in the text? (NB: it currently feels out of place in the text and doesn't look good in context (given that the surrounding information is more serious and encyclopedia-worthy): any suggestions as to where to move it in the text and/or how to rewrite it to make it seem less frivolous?

She has, for instance, said that she had a 99% match with Bernie Sanders (and 91% match with Hillary Clinton) on ISideWith, a political quiz on political stances.[101]

Comment:

(i) It's part of the campaign, part of Stein's outreach to Bernie supporters. (ii) Clinton's page is smack-full of her campaigning and does include her ratings and rankings on scales measuring where she is on the political spectrum. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 13:09, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

2.The following citation has been removed: "Bernie Sanders has called upon his supporters to vote for Hillary Clinton." saying that the United States is not a multi-party parliamentary system and that "you're gonna end up having a choice. Either Hillary Clinton is going to become president, or Donald Trump."

Are there any quotes by former Green candidates on HRC's page ? SashiRolls (talk) 11:09, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Comment:

(i) A large part of Stein's campaign has revolved around reaching out to Sanders supporters and even to Sanders himself. There's absolutely no reason why Sanders' own rationale for not supporting third-party candidates, such as Stein, should not be included. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 13:09, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

(i)(a) 4 reasons: 1) Concision, 2) undue weight given to a virtually tautological statement (surely correct) of a member of an opposing party. 3) Stein is nowhere mentioned in the citation. 4) the citation does not support the claim in wiki-voice, they are different claims. SashiRolls (talk) 13:24, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Sigh. A significant part of the section is about Stein's outreach to Bernie and Bernie supporters. How on Earth is Bernie's rationale for not supporting her candidacy undue weight? Are you seriously going to spend the next few months continuing to edit war 24/7 and peddle these ludicrous rationales for deleting content? Snooganssnoogans (talk) 13:33, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

How about you? Will you continue to edit war and peddle your moronic reasons for keeping content? 174.19.224.236 (talk) 14:38, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

For the 10th time, (i) these are the same standards that are applied to the pages of other major political candidates (not that none of the people who want to delete content on this page actually regularly edit the pages of major political candidates + none of the people can provide any substantive argument as to how Stein's page differs from Trump, Clinton, Pence, Kaine); (ii) reverts are perfectly acceptable when there is repeated consensus for the edits on the talk page (note that SashiRolls repeatedly goes against consensus + starts new discussions about issues that are already on the talk page rather than join existing discussions). Snooganssnoogans (talk) 15:01, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

"reverts are perfectly acceptable when there is repeated consensus for the edits" -- No. You need to review WP:3RR. 174.17.227.62 (talk) 15:59, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Compromise proposal: Now that I have added a more powerful voice than Sanders making the same claim would you agree that this page is too heavily oriented towards the Washington Post? SashiRolls (talk) 19:04, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

No. Wtf? Snooganssnoogans (talk) 19:52, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

3. Snooganssnoogans , you have twice reverted moving West's endorsement to the same paragraph as Hedges'. Is there any reason why you oppose a paragraph concerning the various endorsements? Any reason you prefer to have them scattered around here and there?

Comment:

No, I'm fine with lumping endorsements together. When your edits are so extensive and nonsensical, occasionally a reasonable edit gets accidentally reverted. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 15:01, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Good, I've added structuring elements and am leaving the page for a while again. SashiRolls (talk) 19:04, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

The article looks like crap after your "structuring elements". You didn't even bother to capitalize subsections, and the page doesn't bear any similarity to how the pages of Trump and Clinton are organized. This is all part of the 2016 campaign and should be organized under it. You divide Stein's Sanders outreach from Sanders' response, which is like so much of you editing incomprehensible. Thank you for continually making this article a mess. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 19:52, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

This is to allow better editing and decide appropriate weight. Also to allow new editors see at a glance what is under-represented in the presentation. SashiRolls (talk) 21:32, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

4. Should there be a gorilla on Jill Stein's page?

Comment:

Earlier, one user has argued that this is indeed important information, whereas two users disagree (myself included). Justification for the diverse arguments is found by searching for "gorilla". SashiRolls (talk) 14:10, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

(BLP/PA/You name it violation removed. Only in death does duty end (talk) 16:27, 19 August 2016 (UTC))

Look. This is not helping. SashiRolls (talk) 15:33, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

It helps a lot. You are aware of it, I am, but some people apparently are not: somebody somewhere took a bullshit-joke survey to include an ape to show how ignorant or dumb some survey-takers are. It went viral via facebook or whatever, because people saw and know how funny it is. Then somebody else quickly made some stupid photo-meme and it made the rounds. -- And now some want to include it in a wikipedia article? Seriously? No, I mean, really?? "important information"? Why do we even have to explain to people that it isn't? School much? 174.17.227.62 (talk) 15:44, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

VictoriaGrayson and Neutrality expressed support for keeping the polling data in. The user who deleted it never even tried to justify it on the talk page. Polling data is standard on Trump's and Clinton's pages. The fact that you don't like what the polls show isn't an argument for removing it. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 15:01, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

It's not a question of whether to include "polling data." It's a question of which poll results to include and how to present them. Please comment on the specific proposal here, which is to remove one sentence from the section describing her polling:

Stein has polled as high as 7% in general election polling (a June 2016 poll). A CNN poll (released on August 1, 2016) showed that 13% of Sanders supporters would vote for Stein (10% for Libertarian Party candidate Gary Johnson). A PPP poll released on 30 July 2016 showed her trailing behind a non-existent candidate called "Independent Harambe" (referring to the dead gorilla) with 5% versus 2% in general election polling. Between June 2016 and August 2016, Stein's polling average in a four-way race with Trump, Clinton and Johnson has ranged between 2.5% and 4.8%.

In case you missed my comment on this above, I'll copy it again here as I'm interested in your response: There's really no need for such "context" here. People understand what 2-5% polling means. I'm sure Stein supporters could also point to examples of where she polled ahead of so-and-so in a particular poll. Choosing a poll in which she was farcically polled against a name given sympathetic coverage in recent media (i.e. Harambe, the gorilla shot after a child climbed into its pen) is cherry-picking and clearly undue. 71.13.175.226 (talk) 15:18, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

It's far from clear what 2-5% polling means, and it doesn't hurt to provide the context. That she polls as high or lower than fictional candidates like Harambe (note that the respectable pollster - PPP - never identified this "independent Harambe" as the gorilla when it conducted the poll) and Dees Nutz is important for putting her polling numbers in context, as it suggests that individuals identified as independents in a four-way or three-way race will get 2-5% regardless of whether the polled know who they are. If you have more polling data to add, please do. I added the RCP polling average, and that 13% of Sanders supporters favor her, so it's not as if I'm standing in your way. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 15:30, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

A general statement to that effect would be fine--it's the highlighting of one specific poll result I am questioning. I also question whether it is true that any independent will get 2-5%. In fact, the results for Harambe and Deez Nuts were notable because they were surprising (and I'd wager to bet that less "interesting" names would garner less support from giggling poll respondents). For example, Lessig couldn't get more than 1% in a Dem primary poll despite being named several times. There's also a distinction between Indy candidates and minor party candidates. All of which is to say: yes to context but no to gratuitous insults masquerading as context. 71.13.175.226 (talk) 16:25, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

(In any case, the article actually misrepresents the poll results. Stein and "Harambe" were asked about in two separate questions. Stein's 2% came in a four-way question in which Gary Johnson got another 6%, whereas Harambe was listed as the only alternative to Clinton and Trump. This is another instance of bias in a long list substantiating the charge of systemic anti-Stein bias here.) 71.13.175.226 (talk) 16:36, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

You express valid concerns (unlike SashiRolls) but I think it still it warrants inclusion with the added context that you point out. In the interest of compromise, I'm prepared to drop it though. I've never been against compromise when presented with valid concerns. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 18:37, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Snooganssnoogans, they are called Wikipedia:Single-purpose accounts.VictoriaGrayson^Talk 18:15, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

@VictoriaGrayson:, no. Actually, he's declared himself to be a specific username which is not a single-purpose account. Are you unaware of that or just doubting it? 50.171.226.71 (talk) 04:44, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

were we talking about a gorilla or accounts? Talk:OK (ctrl-f on that page) SashiRolls (talk) 19:36, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

@AlejandroMS:: I reverted your recent edits.

In these edits, you

• Removed a very large amount of sourced material, including some longstanding content that no user has objected to and some content that consensus strongly favors; and
• Inserted a bunch of improper text, including:
  • POV text, e.g,, "the Obama administration's fierce prosecution of whistleblowers revealing government corruption" is not NPOV (see WP:NPOV); "several articles have been published lately that accuse certain individuals and organizations of creating anti-Stein smear campaigns" (not NPOV, especially when cited to a Russian propaganda network (RT) and a left-wing opinion website (Counterpunch)).
  • Unsourced and promotional text, e.g., "Stein's Harvard medical school education and teaching tenure combined with her holistic views do not put her at great odds with most of the leading scientists when it comes to topics such as climate change, global warming or vaccines." (No source provided, reference to her education is promotional in tone).
  • Addition of material that doesn't mention Stein at all and is irrelevant, e.g.:
    • inserting a reference to one appointment made by Pres. Obama (irrelevant and cited only to Wikipedia itself, which is not permitted, see WP:CIRCULAR)
    • inserting a discussion of the Green Party platform outside of the Stein-specific context;
    • inserting a discussion of GMO regulation abroad and across the U.S. (irrelevant to Stein's bio);
    • inserting a long (and rather misleading) block of text about the safety of Wi-Fi, cited to unreliable websites ("electromagnetichealth.org") and links to a variety of Wikipedia articles (again, irrelevant to Stein, improperly sourced, and a violation of WP:FRINGE).

Neutrality^talk 20:43, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

In your revert, you added back the bit about the gorilla. I suppose this was an accident? Several solid edits were also included in this, but I agree that there were a significant number of questionable moves in AlejandroMS's edits (though there were also constructive efforts included). SashiRolls (talk) 11:23, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

This revert (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jill_Stein&type=revision&diff=735538991&oldid=735538215) has already been discussed multiple times on the talk page, getting consensus the first time and in subsequent discussions. In pretending he/she has consensus for this revert, SashiRolls repeatedly misrepresents the view of one user, "JayJasper", who finds no problems with the content that was reverted. This has been pointed out to SashiRolls twice (edit: thrice now), but he/she persists in misrepresenting this user's views and claims that it entails consensus. Please restore. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 12:39, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

This is our current wiki-text:

In response to a twitter question on whether vaccines cause autism, Stein tweeted, "there is no evidence that autism is caused by vaccines" but quickly deleted the tweet and tweeted instead the more circumspect, "I'm not aware of evidence linking autism with vaccines.

I would propose:

In response to a twitter question on whether vaccines cause autism, Stein first responded, "there is no evidence that autism is caused by vaccines," then revised her tweet to a more prudent "I'm not aware of evidence linking autism with vaccines."

Better suggestions:

In March 2016, she tweeted, "Nuclear power plants = weapons of mass destruction waiting to be detonated." — Preceding unsigned comment added by SashiRolls (talk • contribs) 02:04, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

Despite the clear consensus above on whether or not the gorilla should stay on Jill Stein's page, this morning I found it had found it's way back onto the page (possibly in "Neutrality"'s revert?). I have also deleted the "On 3rd party chances" section along with its content as consensus seems to have been reached that these two items have no place whatsoever on her biography page. SashiRolls (talk) 10:56, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

There's absolutely no consensus that the content in the "On 3rd party chances" section should be removed. You just emerged from a discussion where it was pointed out to you that you misrepresented the views of another user, a user who favored keeping the content in the "On 3rd party chances" section as per my edit. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 12:17, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

Do you mean when JayJasper wrote: "Bottom line: the entire section was about an electoral analysis, not about about Jill Stein, the actual subject of the article.--JayJasper (talk) 16:05, 20 August 2016 (UTC) "

The user is referring to an older version (YOUR version where there's a ridiculous subsection called 'on third party chances' which contains an irrelevant Chomsky comment and a bunch of comments out of context). After seeing my edit (how the article looks like now), the user says that my "revisions have sufficiently resolved the issue". This has now been pointed out to you twice, yet you persist in misrepresenting the issue.Snooganssnoogans (talk) 12:27, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

I believe the text above concerning his "bottom line" is clear, and that your misleading revert tricked us all into believing you had deleted the section along with its content (as stated). There is no need to reply further, if JayJasper wishes to respond, either above or here, as to whether he saw what you actually did or just relied on what you said you did, that would be a helpful action in an effort to undo the hacking of this page. SashiRolls (talk) 12:38, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

The guy links to the edit in question, and says explicitly that my "revisions have sufficiently resolved the issue". How clear can he be?! Snooganssnoogans (talk) 12:40, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

I also removed a line from the lead which had no business being there (but was there to be sure that something negative appeared if the article is shared on FB or other social media, cf. FB opengraph debugger). Similar tactics have been used for the talk page to ensure that if it is posted to social media, a sentence about "pro-Stein" slant appears... SashiRolls (talk) 10:56, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

Should a WP:ANI be opened concerning the unhelpful edit behavior being exhibited on this page, as initially suggested by NeilN here.?

Comment:

I've added four "under discussion tags" for two different reasons.

For the words "highly" in "highly critical", and "celebratory" in "celebratory statement" it seems to me that the tone would be more neutral with less modification (of the adj and of the N). (incidentally, I agree that Stein is highly critical, but that expresses my opinion about how critical she is...

For the other two sentences tagged, there is no mention of Jill Stein in them. Both are meant to show that the position of someone who was an anti-vaxxer or an anti-wifier would be factually incorrect. This is irrelevant in the fist case because it is established that Stein's position is not the position of an anti-vaxxer, as Snoogs pointed out by adding the line about her negative response when being asked if she believed that vaccines caused autism. Even if it were relevant to her position, there would be no reason to add it: on Copernicus' page, there is nothing about the scandalous fact that he didn't realize that orbital patterns were elliptical. But it's not relevant to Jill Stein's position. Likewise for the citation on the safety of wifi. It is not relevant, because Jill Stein has not said (as far as we are aware) that as a matter of policy, once elected, she will/would ban wifi in all the schools (or even that she is opposed to it as a matter of policy.) SashiRolls (talk) 20:28, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

Also, having read the comments above, I agree with the problem concerning the obsession with the "now". I would have never included the bit on Brexit (which is a tempest in a teapot) if I were trying to write an objective article about Jill Stein. But, since it was already here, and knowing my own biases, I was certainly not going to delete it. The issue on Russia v. Ukraine is interesting because it marks a very strong distinction between the Stein candidacy and the Clinton candidacy. Still, given that the section on Russia still contains verifiably inaccurate statements... Again, happy editing. I'll check out Ballotopedia. SashiRolls (talk) 20:28, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

This has all been discussed before, and resolved before. These are new and ludicrous rationales to again try to remove the content that you find reflects poorly on Stein. This kind of content is completely consistent with what exists on other politicians' pages. I don't have the time to write an essay every day to address your daily freakout. These issues are addressed again and again throughout this talk page. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 20:42, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

This would not be an appropriate argument (even if it were true): wikipedia articles are not graven on tablets, but get changed over time. There has been no discussion on any of the four tags above, except between you and me. Let others express their opinion. (Also, one of the tags was added to a new bit added today by someone who's been quite active on Stein's running mates page... Thank you for making it impossible to revert your edit by adding the structuring elements I had previously added, but that you reverted. You have used 2 of your 3 reverts now. SashiRolls (talk) 21:31, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

I don't want to go overboard in noting all the overkill, but I do think there is, as Calandria Caladonia has already noted, a good deal of overkill concerning polls. Though I've specifically marked the sentence concerning Jill Stein's position concerning a rise in the polls, the whole paragraph should be vetted for WP:CrystalBall gazing it seems to me. SashiRolls (talk) 00:51, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

"It is appropriate to report discussion and arguments about the prospects for success of future proposals and projects or whether some development will occur, if discussion is properly referenced." Both Trump and Clinton's pages feature polling data and clarification of the polling data by reliable secondary sources. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 00:55, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

I don't think her lack of statement on Russia's human rights should be included. Lack of a statement is not a policy position. Does any other candidate have non-statements like this under "Policy Positions"? While it may be factual that she didn't say anything about Russia's human rights record during a particular speech, there is also the question of notability given that the only source is an opinion blog. Masebrock (talk) 07:02, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

agreed. moreover watching the video shows that the claim that she does not criticize Russian foreign policy (military spending) is demonstrably false. For comparison on human rights, this table can be sorted from highest to lowest: List of countries by incarceration rate. I have gone ahead and removed it, pending further comment for maintaining it...

I'm removing the back-and-forth on Sanders until there is some consensus on whether to include it, and if so on how to word it. The article's five full sentences on Sanders appeared excessive to me, and very shaky based on three key facts:

• The content was based mostly on a Reddit post made by Stein, a Tweet made by Stein, and a Democracy Now! interview. That could probably support some content (self-published sources are acceptable to cite for a person's own opinions), but it does indicate that there's not a very large amount of secondary coverage on the topic.

• More importantly, we absolutely cannot include five sentences on Stein's comments about, and overtures to, Sanders without also including Sanders' response. It would mislead the reader and paint an incorrect impression to do otherwise.

• Details about the Stein-Sanders back-and-forth can be and should be addressed, if anywhere, at Jill Stein presidential campaign, 2016. This is mostly in the context of the campaign, rather than in the context of Stein's biographical details (i.e., her personal views and positions, her career, etc.)

--Neutrality^talk 21:40, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

Agreed. If the text on Stein's outreach to Sanders supporters and to Sanders himself is to be kept in the article, then it is crucial not to omit that Sanders has explicitly rejected those overtures. Otherwise, the article gives the impression that Sanders has yet to take a position on the matter. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 22:35, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

We should mention that Stein offered to step aside so that Sanders could be the Green Party candidate. We could also mention - briefly - the reasons for the offer and refusal. But any greater detail belongs in the campaign article. TFD (talk) 22:44, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

I'd probably be fine with this. Anyone have suggested language? Neutrality^talk 23:04, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

With the exception of the Chomsky quote, which does actually pertain to going to the polls, the rest of the paragraph doesn't seem to me to be likely to be what a Wikipedia user interested in learning about Jill Stein would be most interested in. (just my opinion mind you...) — Preceding unsigned comment added by SashiRolls (talk • contribs) 02:09, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

I have deleted the following sentence from the page because it indicates a clear anti-Stein bias on the part of Wikipedia:

"In an August fundraising email, the Stein campaign cited a website poll (an unreliable measure of public sentiment) as indicative of a coming 'big jump in Jill's numbers'." (One of three wiki-voice references to "Why Friends Don't Let Friends Vote for Jill Stein" in the Wikipedia article, which the major anti-Stein players have repeatedly used (here 3x, but also on her running mate's page). This article originally appeared in an obscure magazine named Tablet (funded by a special interest) and has since been syndicated and repackaged to the sort of "Neutral" reliable source the anti-Stein crew seems to prefer to serious discussion: Truth Jihad, see here.

If the anti-Stein krew wish to argue for the inclusion of the Truth Jihad editorial, it would be helpful to rewrite the elements in wiki-voice in an unbaised manner, though I don't really believe this is a useful or neutral citation for Jill Stein's biography page.

When I first arrived on this page, there were 80K signs on the page. There are still 80K signs on the page. Why? Because the anti-Stein crew is fighting tooth and nail to prevent visitors to her page from learning anything positive about her and so delete any serious discussion of issues. One of the most powerful members of the anti-Stein crew is an administrator who goes by the name of "Neutrality", but who shows significant bias in his "copy-editing", writing and reverts (and who has been called out in the Atlantic for being the most active editor on Tim Kaine's wikipedia page just prior to his announcement as the Dems VP candidate). He (or his aggressive ally Snoogans) have removed the reference to the long and detailed debate between Robert Reich and Chris Hedges entirely on more than one occasion, and have now removed this direct quote from it (in the context of a biased paragraph on polling):

"We have to remember that 10 years ago, Syriza, which controls the Greek government, was polling at exactly the same spot that the Green Party is polling now—about 4 percent." We’ve got to break out of this idea that we can create systematic change within a particular election cycle (the previous sentence, which I chose not to include, was "And this is, of course, why I support Dr. Stein and the Green Party." Why? Because "this" refers to the prescience of Ralph Nader concerning the "corporate coup d'état" in the previous paragraph. I added the Chomsky quotation because Neutrality asked me to provide evidence that this was a "party-wide issue", though I assume he means international left issue...

Presumably, the anti-Stein lobby given free reign on her biography page to hassle good faith editors does not wish for anyone coming to this page to learn more about what Chris Hedges had to say... particularly the lines "We have bailed out the banks, pushed through programs of austerity. This has been a bipartisan effort, because they’ve both been captured by corporate power. We have undergone what John Ralston Saul correctly calls a corporate coup d’état in slow motion, and it’s over." (Note how during this campaign of misrepresentation, the context of Jill Stein's remarkably similar comments on bank bailouts and austerity has been removed in order to cherry pick a sentence about Nazi Germany, counting on the reader to be shocked by the statement ripped out of context.)

Similarly, the 2 hour long video from the University of the Left featuring Glen Ford, Jill Stein and Chris Hedges was also deleted without first seeking comment, as Chomsky has been on several occasions. Similarly, reference to Jill Stein preferring to spend money helping Puerto Ricans to spending money on the military has also been summarily deleted...

Looking forward to the anti-Stein clan beginning to work seriously towards removal of the anti-Stein bias tag that is on the page by allowing inclusion of some content favorable to her campaign, rather than simply toning down the many factual misrepresentations we've found in the thread (gorilla, Brexit, vaccines, putative lack of critique of Russian foreign policy, wifi, tweets vs. policy positions, etc. ...) SashiRolls (talk) 22:36, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

The editing of this page would be a lot better off if editors would focus on content, and refrain from describing other editors as pro- or anti-Stein "crew" or "clan". --Tryptofish (talk) 22:58, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

99% of the above is content based, talking about the factual misrepresentations and inappropriate clipping of citations... issues that have been brought up over and over again and summarily dismissed. Note that it was Alejandro who most recently pointed out the clipped citation on Nazi Germany. SashiRolls (talk) 23:05, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

SashiRolls, your constant personal attacks and lengthy rants — inveighing against not only me (with whom you appear quite preoccupied), but any and all editors who disagree with you on content — is tiresome in the extreme. You have been repeatedly and explicitly advised about WP:NPA, WP:AGF, and casting aspersions, yet you continue to refer to other users as "Clinton spinners"; "the anti-Stein lobby"; "the anti-Stein crew," and "the HRC folks"; you advance ridiculous conspiratorial assertions (that we are part of a shadowy cabal); and you deploy sarcasm and snark at every single opportunity; Please cut it out. Neutrality^talk 23:15, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

Seconded. Since this article is related to post-1932 American politics, it's covered under WP:ARBAPDS. Continued battleground mentality could result in sanctions. clpo13_(talk) 23:21, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

Comments on the 2016 polling paragraph:

Allow or prohibit counterbalancing argument to "Friends Don't Let Friends Vote for Jill Stein"?

Comments on the truncated citation from Jill Stein on the rise of far-right parties internationally:

Require impartial full citation of the argument for inclusion of the word "Nazi" or permit the continued partial citation without the argumentation behind it?

Neutrality, could you revert camarade Snoog please; this is pertinent in polling. Note it comes from a vote Stein or vote Clinton debate of very high quality... Of course the whole polling bit could go on the campaign page too... but if it stays, I see no reason not to include this. Thanks for your neutrality, neutrality. :)

Concerning the Left, internationally, Chris Hedges spoke of the long view in his debate with Robert Reich concerning the quadrennial election: "We have to remember that 10 years ago, Syriza, which controls the Greek government, was polling at exactly the same spot that the Green Party is polling now—about 4 percent. We’ve got to break out of this idea that we can create systematic change within a particular election cycle."

User:SashiRolls, 18:09, August 22, 2016

I'm not sure why this is directed at me — you added this content and Snooganssnoogans, quite properly, removed it. The obnoxious snark (i.e., sarcastic language like "camarade") isn't particularly helpful, by the way.

As to the issue: this quote from Hedges (an endorser of Stein) falls into the category of "generic punditry" that isn't helpful in a biographical article. (I highly doubt whether it would even be appropriate in Jill Stein presidential campaign, 2016). We already mention briefly that Hedges is a supporter of Stein. I see no reason why we should shoehorn a long quote from him into this article. That would be akin to including a laudatory quote from, say, Barney Frank or David Brock on the Hillary Clinton page about the brilliance of Clinton's campaign strategy or something. It just wouldn't belong.

If this was a full-scale theme of Stein's campaign — rather than an offhand comment by one of her supporters — then I might feel differently. There is zero evidence that this is the case. Neutrality^talk 23:22, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

This is directed at you for two reasons: 1) either you know the page better than I do and so you know that many of the quotes on the page are from non-notable sources, e.g. Dan Arel on GMOs. On the other hand, a long-time associate, fellow traveler, surrogate or whatever you want to call him, who is speaking precisely on the election at hand, is not a source conerning policy? Hmm... it's almost like Wasserman-Schulz doesn't have her place on HRC's 2016 campaign page... Justice is blind, neutrality. Power to the people. (yes, I imagine that's part of the program in other words.))SashiRolls (talk) 23:31, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

or 2) you don't know the page and are unaware of what is happening on this page (i.e. that the consensus is being ignored, that this page is biased (as it says on the page itself).

Concerning snark, when new members to the thread are greated with threatening language (I dare you to...), you are going to have to deal with a bit of snark now and then. We've seen snark recurrently from many (one-time) visitors to this talk page, and in some old edit summaries concerning your gorilla and Lucifer. Why do you think that is?SashiRolls (talk) 00:01, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

Strange that Occupy appears only as a caption on the page. (also)SashiRolls (talk) 23:40, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

I genuinely cannot make heads or tails of what you are trying to say. In any case, I have started an RfC on the Chris Hedges quote, below. It is really regrettable when editors focus on other users and make vague comments, when really we should be focusing on the content and making specific suggestions whenever possible. Neutrality^talk 23:51, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

(subject edited 19 Aug 2016 01:33 following Victoria Grayson's example)

Since June 8, 2016 this page has (quite largely) been owned by Snooganssnoogans. A cursory look at the history of the last 1250 edits makes clear that he is by far the dominant editor on this page and that anybody with whom he disagrees will be reverted (with the aid of his ally Victoria Grayson). There is an open "request for comment" where his most recent elimination of dissent is detailed. In general, Snooganssnoogans wishes to paint Stein in the most unflattering light possible and suppresses evidence that conflicts with this project. Since copyright information and the author's name generally figure at the front of print articles and books, it seems only appropriate to place this warning here, since the previous claim that this article read like a campaign brochure is far from correct today. At the moment the article has a number of factual errors or examples that have been pointed out to him by several different editors on the talk page (here, here, here, here, here, here, here, and here) but Snooganssnoogans, along with a few other editors (including an administrator and a person with rollback privileges (Cf. here)), do not seem to wish to relinquish any control over this article. There is also comment on this issue at the Reliable Sources Noticeboard, and it has likewise been posted to the Neutral Point of View Noticeboard though it has not received comment there as of this writing.

"If someone else is claiming "ownership" of a page, you can bring it up on the associated talk page." (Wikipedia: Ownership of content)

In the past few days, some constructive work has been going on, thanks to all involved. I would like to back off of my tone above. Really. Then I stumble across a sentence about a gorilla... (I'm sorry if that feels snarky, but to understand, please check out the page diff here (exchange between VictoriaGrayson & Eleutherius, linked to by Snooganssnoogans to see this has been discussed over and over again, and yet somehow has never dropped) Let's make a better page without any gorillas on it. Here was the last time that he removed the context concerning the poll, while saying he was adding a poll in the comment summary.SashiRolls (talk) 01:33, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

I will attempt to reconstruct briefly the major changes made to the page, then reverted without any comment by Victoria Grayson, below.

This morning, I read this article "https://theintercept.com/2016/08/08/dems-tactic-of-accusing-adversaries-of-kremlin-ties-and-russia-sympathies-has-long-history-in-us' and related it with the wikipedia page a read a while ago.. I noticed there was an antagonism and I think the section concerning the December meeting with Putin in the wikipedia page is misleading:

The articles in its current form contains this sentence: "She met with president Putin in Moscow in December 2015 at a banquet celebrating the 10th anniversary of the Russian state propaganda network Russia Today.[141] While in Russia, Stein criticised U.S. foreign policy and the state of human rights in the U.S.; she did not criticize Russia's foreign policy or human rights in Russia"

What is said in that sentence is not corroborated by facts, Based on the video which is their only disclosed material/source of "Americablog.com", you cannot say the she "criticised U.S. foreign policy and the state of human rights in the U.S.; she did not criticise Russia's foreign policy or human rights in Russia".

This sentence is actually misleading, as it suggests Dr Stein is not critical towards Russia. However, she did publicly criticised Russia: "she criticised Russia for diverting scarce resources into military spending while its people suffered" Quote from a media outlet the_intercept (and not the blog..) (ref: https://theintercept.com/2016/08/08/dems-tactic-of-accusing-adversaries-of-kremlin-ties-and-russia-sympathies-has-long-history-in-us/). Finally, the word "propaganda" to describe RT has a negative tone.

Overall, if you want to report on her meeting with Putin in december 2015, the main message is 1) anti-militaristic attitude and 2) she's in favour of balance of power in international relations. As the election 2016 are getting close, all the sources and pages should be verified. Such a misleading part is not acceptable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Marcsoisfranc (talk • contribs) 19:14, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

I agree. This is one example of the systemic bias of the page that has not yet been corrected. SashiRolls (talk) 08:51, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

SashiRolls has again added a bunch of tags throughout the article to parts that have already been resolved, sometimes repeatedly. The article should also lose its 'systemic bias' tag at the top, which is wholly unsupported (there is no difference between this page and that of Clinton, Trump, Pence, Kaine) and the rationale for the 'systemic bias' charge has been thoroughly rebuked (note that most of the complaints that underline the accusation of bias have been rejected in the 'Request for Comment' talk section). It's difficult to edit this page when one user repeatedly adds nonsense that goes against consensus, refuses to address the issues in a substantive manner and tries to rehash arguments over the same issue again and again. Nothing ever gets resolved. Pinging other regular users to politicians' pages: User: Neutrality, User: VictoriaGrayson, User: Activist, User: Volunteer_Marek, User: Gouncbeatduke. What's one supposed to do in this kind of situation? Snooganssnoogans (talk) 21:41, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

Request full protection status.VictoriaGrayson^Talk 21:46, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

You will make "media studies" departments and the press very happy by doing such a thing, though you won't be doing Wikipedia or Clinton (seriously) any favors that way... it's your choice Snooganssnoogans. SashiRolls (talk) 22:01, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

Could you do it? I'm not sure how. I've never made a formal request for anything. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 22:25, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, but I have no interest in causing Wikipedia or Clinton harm, and for the press and the media studies departments, the record is already here. SashiRolls (talk) 23:05, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

(SashiRolls, please try to keep your comments constructive towards improving the encyclopedia.) Snooganssnoogans, I'll address here your response in the other section above to make clear that I disagree with you that the bias charge has been resolved. Here's another example: the line "Jonathan Chait characterized this as the 'Plan to Stop Trump by Electing Him President,'" which uses a quote as a pretext for including mockery of Stein in the article. What in the Hillary Clinton article, for instance, is comparable to that line? The reason I am citing such examples as evidence of systemic bias rather than just fixing them as I see them is because I see them everywhere I look in this article. These do not appear to be isolated instances of bias which have snuck in here or there but rather something systematic.

I think there are substantial differences between the Kahan quote here and the Nyhan quote in the Trump positions article you cite, namely that the Nyhan quote uses more sober language and explains a topic that is a bit more obscure--we don't have a whole article about the effects of candidates making unfounded claims predicting election fraud. In any case, it seems a bit odd to use something you added a few days ago in a different article to justify something you wrote here. They may both be inappropriate according to Wikipedia policies.

To be honest, I am starting to get the feeling that your response to my concerns--instead of referring to policy or responding to my policy references--amounts to saying that I'm not qualified to comment because I don't regularly edit candidate pages. I'm sure you don't mean say that; but if not, I would appreciate more substantial responses to my criticisms. -hugeTim ^(talk) 23:25, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

At the same time, I do respect your experience (regarding what works to avoid edit-warring) and appreciate everyone's efforts here. I need to back away from this and so won't be responding further. Best wishes. -hugeTim ^(talk) 23:32, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

I just want to note that I have spoken in favor of removing the Chait quote. I don't think anyone has defended its use. It must have been accidentally restored when someone reverted some of SashiRolls' ridiculous massive edits in the past. I'll remove it. So the one example of systemic bias is something that's accidentally in the article and that we all agree shouldn't be here? Snooganssnoogans (talk) 23:44, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

I just used Nyhan as an example because it's recent and stuck in mind. It's incredibly tiring to recite every example of this when the pages are full of them, and when I've made reference to this again and again in different parts of this talk page. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 23:44, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

I'm not intimately familiar with Wikipedia' rules and rarely cite them. I just go by what's standard at the other major political candidates' pages, which are far more active and I'd assume those standards are developed with the Wikipedia rules in mind. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 23:44, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

For the record, although I see above where you acknowledged the Chait line was inappropriate, it looks to me like you never actually removed it and neither has anyone else since it was added on August 4th. That seems like evidence of systemic bias to me. Again, from my perspective, I saw something like that Chait line in every position-related section I happened to look at. But you may be right that I have just been unlucky in the few subsections I've chosen to examine. -hugeTim ^(talk) 00:04, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Sincere thanks are due to you for taking an independent look into the page, hugeTim (& also for tracking that edit down!). Snooganssnoogans has now reached his daily revert limit (once again). I will stop editing and let others provide quality source material and eliminate partisanship on the page. SashiRolls (talk) 01:42, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

There is only one editor that interprets the content this way. The fact that SashiRolls disagrees with any content that casts a critical eye on Stein, does not mean that it should be tagged in ways that suggests the content is unreliable. Please remove the tags. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 14:36, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

No, as the previous section makes clear, many many editors disagree with you. I had not noticed many of your factual errors, but after careful study of the talk page, I realized that you had managed to prevent editors from correcting them without addressing them. SashiRolls (talk) 14:55, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

Where are these "many many editors"? You even opened up an RfC, where it snowballed against you. There seems to be clear consensus.VictoriaGrayson^Talk 15:01, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

an RfC is for discussion. No discussion towards a compromise took place, except on the Reliable Sources Noticeboard; I have followed the advice of the person who responded there, who stated that the Science section of the article had major problems. SashiRolls (talk) 15:03, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

An RfC is used to determine consensus. VictoriaGrayson^Talk 15:06, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

Victoria Grayson should recuse herself from this page (edit: not the talk page, if she wishes to discuss, but from reverting), given her clear activism, as should you. Again, please see the section "Snooganssnoogans page on Jill Stein" concerning WP:OWN and the massive number of editors whose opinions you have disregarded.

See WP:IRONY.VictoriaGrayson^Talk 15:10, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

The eiron unrolls the scroll containing the 40K Snoogans signs

then holds up the post-it with the 40 SashiRoll signs

and wrinkles them into the rubbish. ^^

I am glad to see that the bot restored the systemic bias tag, though it did not restore the individual in-line disputed tags, one of which our Snoog had agreed to modify slightly, but has not modified since your revert. (the bit about Brexit, that I must admit I appreciated he had finally admitted he was distorting the truth about). Could you fix that as agreed Snoogans? Can I call you Snoogans, Snoogans? ^^

Let's be clear, concerning the title of the section: the issues have not been resolved: the systemic bias remains, but there will be others who will come by, and perhaps they will follow wiki policy as I have, be bold, and try to react. The list of disputed, under discussion, and POV tags that have been vandalised can be found on the history page for the time being. The eiron passes & flatters you fine. SashiRolls (talk) 17:31, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

After an admittedly quick perusal of a couple subsections of the article, I agree with the current tag claiming an anti-Stein bias. After a brief perusal of this talk page, the alternative wording suggested by SashiRoll (e.g. re Brexit) seems biased in the other direction. In other words, all participants on this talk page seem to be pushing a POV, focusing on point-scoring rather than trying to make the best encyclopedia we can, which is frustrating. It's hard for me to believe that there are not better sources summarizing Stein's record on the contentious issues under dispute in this article (maybe www.cnn.com/2016/08/16/politics/jill-stein-vaccine-gmo-science/?, but I don't have the time today myself to track them down and suggest neutral wording. -hugeTim ^(talk) 17:05, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

What precisely has an anti-Stein bias? The CNN source is already referenced on the page, and it covers all the issues that it's not referenced for in basically the same way as this wikipedia does. If you check the pages of Clinton (and her positions subpage), Trump (and his positions subpage), Kaine and Pence, you will see far more critical material on the candidates. This is the only page where users repeatedly try to remove such material. I have only applied the same standard that applies to all other politicians' pages (note that none of the users who delete this kind of material regularly edit the pages of major political candidates and consequently seem unfamiliar with the standards that are commonly accepted). On nearly every issue, Stein is quoted, and nearly all reliable sources are quoted when they provide context, so the claim that editors are infusing bias seems even more ludicrous. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 17:19, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

To clarify one concern about the current article, the vaccine paragraph goes on and on in an WP:UNDUE way--compare it to the single line on Donald Trump's page about his much more outlandish vaccine comments. This seems to be a case of WP:RECENTISM. That paragraph should be replaced by a summary in a few sentences, at most. Quoting the candidate or other selected sources can be done in a biased way, as should be obvious--but I'm willing to explain more if it's not. An example is where, in the Foreign Policy section, an errant comment about "ex-Nazis" in Ukraine is selected--not by an RS but by a Wikipedia editor--out of a pages-long phone interview conducted by "OnTheIssues.org" to highlight in an encyclopedia article. That entire Ukraine paragraph, in fact, is a case-study in the improper use of primary sources, bolstering an improper WP:SYNTHESIS of selected quotes from primary sources with a single secondary source: an opinionated blog post strongly critical of Stein. -hugeTim ^(talk) 17:42, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

As another, more comprehensive indictment of the bias of the current article, compare our Political Positions section with Ballotpedia's issues section on her: https://ballotpedia.org/Jill_Stein_presidential_campaign,_2016. (For those who aren't familiar, Ballotpedia is written by a professional staff of writers and researchers.) Their section provides a neutral and thorough presentation of her positions, whereas ours is selective and dominated by detailed presentations of her most controversial statements. -hugeTim ^(talk) 17:53, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

agree 174.19.224.236 (talk) 19:25, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

The length of the vaccine section is for three reasons: (i) because it quotes so much from Stein and the reliable sources. The quotes are there precisely because of a desire not to misrepresent or give the appearance of misrepresentation. (ii) Her position on vaccines is also far more nuanced than Trump's (equivocation, concerns about some issues but not others), and there are different claims that need to be put in context (toxic substances, corporate influence) and need the take of reliable sources. (iii) the issue is frankly one that has gotten her much coverage in reliable sources, so it's definitely not undue judging by coverage in the media. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 19:43, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

If you want to add more issues from Ballotpedia, please do! 19:43, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

I didn't add her statements on Ukraine, so I'm not entirely familiar with the issue. Note though that the pages of the Trump, Clinton, Pence and Kaine are full of positions and quotes lifted from interviews and by editors. There's nothing wrong with using primary sources, in particular when candidates are not big enough to get constant media coverage or when issues are important but still big enough for the candidate to warrant in-depth news coverage. So on that basis, I don't see any problem with noting that Stein has cited concerns about ex-Nazis in the Ukrainian government. I think it's hard to argue that it's not a salient issue, and that such a statement wouldn't be listed on the pages of all other major candidates in this election. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 19:43, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

Points (ii) and (iii) on the vaccine paragraph are well-taken. To the extent that we retain a lengthy vaccine paragraph, I'd argue it belongs more in the 2016 Presidential Campaign subsection rather than under the Political Positions section. It should be told as a narrative of the controversy as it has unfolded in the past few weeks since the DNC as media coverage on her began to focus on that--to the extent that is the case. (I haven't been following it much, myself.)

With regard to your reason (i), I'm taking that as an indication that you do think quoting someone's words is somehow automatically neutral. I'll grant you a desire to avoid "the appearance of misrepresentation," but such an appearance is often deceiving. To explain my thoughts on that further, I'll first quote (with some irony) from the relevant Wikipedia policy, WP:IMPARTIAL: "Even where a topic is presented in terms of facts rather than opinions, inappropriate tone can be introduced through the way in which facts are selected, presented, or organized. ... Try not to quote directly from participants engaged in a heated dispute; instead, summarize and present the arguments in an impartial tone."

Do you really defend the inclusion of the quoted sentence "The modal view is leave the freaking system alone." in this article? What purpose does the entire Kahan quote serve that wouldn't be better served by a straightforward statement of the scientific consensus on vaccine safety, written in an encyclopedic tone, with a hyperlink to the relevant Wikipedia article with more detail? My sense is that the purpose it serves is to push an anti-Stein POV. And that's just one of many examples of quotations that do so in this article--both quotes of Stein critics and Stein quotes selected and arranged to advance a POV. (An example of the latter is the juxtaposition of her statements on the FDA with facts suggesting its objectivity--a juxtaposition also present in the source WaPo blog post by opinion journalist David Weigel--as opposed to juxtaposing them with a reliable source substantiating FDA bias or a fact about Monsanto-FDA ties.) I recognize that writing a NPOV article is hard work, whereas criticizing as I am is relatively easy. What I'm saying is that we should keep the tag to encourage people to keep working on this one. -hugeTim ^(talk) 21:39, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

The immunization schedule is not created by the FDA.VictoriaGrayson^Talk 21:42, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

That may be relevant to a discussion about her comments on vaccines, but I don't see its relevance here on this talk page in a discussion about this article. For what it's worth, I personally disagree with her vaccine comments in question. -hugeTim ^(talk) 21:49, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for a substantive input, Hugetim. Regarding the quotes, it's just my experience that it's a pain in the ass to address controversial issues related to politicians without incorporating quotes. It sets the page up for endless edit warring in my experience, especially when there isn't a core team of editors on a particular page. Both for Trump and Clinton, we rely heavily on quotes in the controversial sections where there is room for a lot of interpretation (especially with Trump). So the quote-thing is fairly consistent with how we do it on other politicians' pages to avoid edit warring. Regarding the Kahan quote, that kind of context is all over other politicians' pages. See, for instance, the recent example of political scientist Brendan Nyhan's take on Trump's 'rigged' rhetoric on Trump's page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Donald_Trump), which is similar to Kahan's take on Stein's. While I think you raise valid concerns, these are all issues that are consistently applied to Clinton, Trump, Pence, Kaine. While one can quibble over what should be included on politicians' pages but I don't think anyone who regularly edits politicians' pages can say that Stein's page is distinct in any way from other major politicians. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 22:01, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia sez: "On Mother's Day 2016, Stein suggested that Clinton did not 'reflect the values of being a mother'." We're making progress... I appreciated your edit today, which wasn't in fact entirely a revert. SashiRolls (talk) 00:09, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

VictoriaGrayson has redirected the bias tag here, so I'll include a few examples recently deleted from the page in the process of clean-up:

• On Mother's Day 2016, Stein suggested that Clinton did not "reflect the values of being a mother".^[1]

• A PPP poll released on 30 July 2016 showed her trailing behind a non-existent candidate called "Independent Harambe" (referring to the dead gorilla) with 5% versus 2% in general election polling.^[2]

• In July 2016, Trump stated that a vote for Stein would be good for him: "I think a vote for Stein would be good — that’s the Green Party. Because I figure anyone voting for Stein is gonna be for Hillary. So I think vote for Stein is fine."^{[under discussion][3]}

The last was more difficult to decide then the first two, so if anyone would like to argue for its notability, they are welcome too. She also has added a pro-Green bias tag. That is her right.

The most recent discussion is farther down on the talk page.

SashiRolls (talk) 22:23, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

* I'm fine with removing Stein's charge that Clinton does not reflect the values of being a mother. It did get RS coverage and is part of the campaign but does not deserve a lot of attention.

* If this article is going to contain polling data (like the pages of Trump and Clinton), then it is relevant to put her polling numbers in context. That she fails to poll ahead of fictional independent candidates is relevant. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 22:04, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

There's really no need for such "context" here. People understand what 2% polling means. I'm sure Stein supporters could also point to examples of where she polled ahead of so-and-so in a particular poll. Choosing a poll in which she was farcically polled against a name given sympathetic coverage in recent media is cherry-picking and clearly undue. 71.13.175.226 (talk) 22:46, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Yes, there's a link on the page to the discussion that points out equally unflattering and weird comparisons with her opponents. The number of people polled who considered that a specific candidate could, in fact, be Lucifer, was also in the source material. You linked to that context earlier in discussion, Snoogansnoogans

Source: page two. To fact-check that another candidate is thought to be Lucifer by 33% of those polled, ctrl-f) ... SashiRolls (talk) 00:40, 19 August 2016 (UTC) this is not noteworthy or Wikipedia-worthy IMO. SashiRolls (talk) 01:58, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

* Trump's statement about the third party candidate is clearly relevant as part of the campaign. It is the one time that a candidate of the two major parties has spoken about the Green Party. Hard to argue that it's undue. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 22:04, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

I agree on the significance of the Trump statement, but there's no reason for a full quote. Let's replace it with "Trump himself has stated that a vote for Stein would be good for him because it likely takes away a vote for Hillary Clinton." We can put the quote in the footnote, if anywhere. 71.13.175.226 (talk) 22:46, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

sounds reasonable. SashiRolls (talk) 00:42, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Though I mostly want to ask which Republican candidate wouldn't say such a thing, ... SashiRolls (talk) 02:00, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

(for purposes of understanding the discussion below, note that VictoriaGrayson changed the title of this section at 19:37, 18 August 2016)

Stein has repeatedly said she doesn't believe in the immunization schedule. See HERE or HERE. Do a CTRL+F for "schedule".VictoriaGrayson^Talk 17:12, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

You need a source that says that, otherwise it is original research. TFD (talk) 17:50, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Did you not see the links I provided?VictoriaGrayson^Talk 17:53, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

What are you talking about? I did the same CTRL+F on our article and found the mention about the schedule. What do you want to be different about that paragraph? 71.13.175.226 (talk) 18:23, 18 August 2016 (UTC) (p.s. this IP is a named user already involved in the discussions above, but I'd rather not explicitly say who.)

Why are you editing as an IP? An accident?VictoriaGrayson^Talk 18:53, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

I've locked myself out of my account to try to prevent myself from spending too much time on this. Not working, but I don't currently know the password. 71.13.175.226 (talk) 19:20, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Is this the section explaining why you placed a tag on the article alleging a strong, systemic pro-Stein bias in the article? I think more evidence is needed to even begin a discussion of such a claim. Please explain your tag further. Alternatively--and I say this as someone who has been tempted to do so in comparable circumstances--I'd ask you to consider whether you might be disrupting Wikipedia to make a point with that tag. 71.13.175.226 (talk) 19:47, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, I read the first link you provided, the second is under a paywall. And it does not say "Stein has repeatedly said she doesn't believe in the immunization schedule." TFD (talk) 19:49, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Regarding her statements yesterday the second article says:

After a series of confusing answers that echoed some anti-vaccine slogans, Stein gave her clearest answer to the contrary.

So even as of yesterday, Stein is still pandering to anti-vaxers.VictoriaGrayson^Talk 20:49, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

The title says "Greens clean up remarks." You are beginning to show clear signs of paranoia. 174.19.224.236 (talk) 21:09, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Why is Stein still echoing anti-vaxxers?VictoriaGrayson^Talk 21:27, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Your edit does not say that is "echoing" anti-vaxers, it says "Stein has repeatedly said she doesn't believe in the immunization schedule." As for why a reporter says Stein is "echoing" comments by anti-vaxers, I do not know. It could have to do with the candidate he supports but it is up to you to provide a source that tells us. Call me naive, but I would have thought that an argument based on actual facts would have been a better approach for the Clinton campaign. (Like Jill can't win, vote for Hill.) TFD (talk) 04:57, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

The source also editorializes that the author thought some of her comments were "confusing". Why would a Washington Post writer be confused by Stein? Because it's the Washington Post. (And since you don't consider the possible POV of a given source, will you please also include in this article that Stein is a CENSORED.) 174.19.224.236 (talk) 06:14, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

You have added no proposed text to the page VictoriaGrayson? What specifically do you want to add? Unless I'm mistaken (due to the disruptive reverts) our wikipedia text already includes information about the fact that JS had concerns about vaccines, as did HRC. Over time, these concerns have become less acute as procedures have improved. As your second source makes clear, this "schedule" concern dates from when she was working as a practicing doctor.SashiRolls (talk) 10:23, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Is this thread just a dilatory tactic ? SashiRolls (talk) 10:21, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Please place your request at Wikipedia:Requests for page protection. You don't request it here. Eden5 (talk) 01:40, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

The result of User:Snooganssnoogans's request can be seen here. I have followed through on the administrator's suggestion and have filed a complaint on the edit warring noticeboard, in an effort to free the page for progress towards finding a solution. Peace to all involved. SashiRolls (talk) 02:43, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

Section 3.2.2.1 "On third party chances" does not fit into the topic.

It is not about Jill Stein, but vaguely about third parties.

If this needs to be brought up at all, it might be better to replace the whole section with a link, maybe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_party_(United_States)

Or if it should remain, it needs to have a disclaimer that nowhere does Duverger's Law state or imply that the two dominant parties will continue to be the Republican Party and the Democratic Party, and in fact several times in US history dominant parties have dwindled to nothing.

I saw a claim that the Duverger's Law section has been discussed and reached final approval in the Talk section, but I did not find that discussion. Jethomas5 (talk) 15:16, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

It is discussed in "Editors continue to remove inconvenient content and context". If polling data is to be mentioned, it is valid to put it in context by using reliable sources. If the reliable source is misrepresented or if crucial context is missing from the piece, please add it. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 15:31, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

Oh, that. You said it belonged and your friend agreed. Now you have modified it somewhat. I think this whole thing could better be replaced by a link to the Wikipedia article on Third Parties in the USA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_party_(United_States)

Do you disagree? Jethomas5 (talk) 18:57, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

I disagree with just linking to 'Third Party'. The section looks fine as is. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 19:06, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

It is redundant, repeating allegations about third parties by various sources. We do just as well to simply link to the Wikipedia discussion that says the same things. I tried editing it to show how I would like it. Jethomas5 (talk) 19:23, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

Releasing a two-page summary of the tax returns for one year is generally not considered a release of tax returns. See, for instance, PolitiFact rating Sanders's claim that he has released his past tax returns as "false" for precisely this reason. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/apr/06/bernie-s/bernie-sanders-has-released-few-tax-returns-compar/ Snooganssnoogans (talk) 18:05, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Indeed, it is not a release of tax returns.VictoriaGrayson^Talk 23:19, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Releasing page 1 and 2 of your 1040 is the core of the tax report. It is sufficient to see how much was earned, who earned it and how. Look at your last tax return and you will see all the core info is on the first 2 pages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AlejandroMS (talk • contribs) 20:33, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

The reliable source PolitiFact disagrees with you. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 20:38, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

1. In the interest of improving Wikipedia, I would like to point out that this sentence has been orphaned by the addition of intermediate material. A few comments about the citation: first, it references a tweet; second, it refers to an on-line multiple choice quiz; third, there is not mention on HRC's page of her match with Jill Stein. Is this notable for Stein but not for Clinton?

Is anyone in favor of keeping this citation in the text? (NB: it currently feels out of place in the text and doesn't look good in context (given that the surrounding information is more serious and encyclopedia-worthy): any suggestions as to where to move it in the text and/or how to rewrite it to make it seem less frivolous?

She has, for instance, said that she had a 99% match with Bernie Sanders (and 91% match with Hillary Clinton) on ISideWith, a political quiz on political stances.[101]

Comment:

(i) It's part of the campaign, part of Stein's outreach to Bernie supporters. (ii) Clinton's page is smack-full of her campaigning and does include her ratings and rankings on scales measuring where she is on the political spectrum. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 13:09, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

2.The following citation has been removed: "Bernie Sanders has called upon his supporters to vote for Hillary Clinton." saying that the United States is not a multi-party parliamentary system and that "you're gonna end up having a choice. Either Hillary Clinton is going to become president, or Donald Trump."

Are there any quotes by former Green candidates on HRC's page ? SashiRolls (talk) 11:09, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Comment:

(i) A large part of Stein's campaign has revolved around reaching out to Sanders supporters and even to Sanders himself. There's absolutely no reason why Sanders' own rationale for not supporting third-party candidates, such as Stein, should not be included. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 13:09, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

(i)(a) 4 reasons: 1) Concision, 2) undue weight given to a virtually tautological statement (surely correct) of a member of an opposing party. 3) Stein is nowhere mentioned in the citation. 4) the citation does not support the claim in wiki-voice, they are different claims. SashiRolls (talk) 13:24, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Sigh. A significant part of the section is about Stein's outreach to Bernie and Bernie supporters. How on Earth is Bernie's rationale for not supporting her candidacy undue weight? Are you seriously going to spend the next few months continuing to edit war 24/7 and peddle these ludicrous rationales for deleting content? Snooganssnoogans (talk) 13:33, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

How about you? Will you continue to edit war and peddle your moronic reasons for keeping content? 174.19.224.236 (talk) 14:38, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

For the 10th time, (i) these are the same standards that are applied to the pages of other major political candidates (not that none of the people who want to delete content on this page actually regularly edit the pages of major political candidates + none of the people can provide any substantive argument as to how Stein's page differs from Trump, Clinton, Pence, Kaine); (ii) reverts are perfectly acceptable when there is repeated consensus for the edits on the talk page (note that SashiRolls repeatedly goes against consensus + starts new discussions about issues that are already on the talk page rather than join existing discussions). Snooganssnoogans (talk) 15:01, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

"reverts are perfectly acceptable when there is repeated consensus for the edits" -- No. You need to review WP:3RR. 174.17.227.62 (talk) 15:59, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Compromise proposal: Now that I have added a more powerful voice than Sanders making the same claim would you agree that this page is too heavily oriented towards the Washington Post? SashiRolls (talk) 19:04, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

No. Wtf? Snooganssnoogans (talk) 19:52, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

3. Snooganssnoogans , you have twice reverted moving West's endorsement to the same paragraph as Hedges'. Is there any reason why you oppose a paragraph concerning the various endorsements? Any reason you prefer to have them scattered around here and there?

Comment:

No, I'm fine with lumping endorsements together. When your edits are so extensive and nonsensical, occasionally a reasonable edit gets accidentally reverted. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 15:01, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Good, I've added structuring elements and am leaving the page for a while again. SashiRolls (talk) 19:04, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

The article looks like crap after your "structuring elements". You didn't even bother to capitalize subsections, and the page doesn't bear any similarity to how the pages of Trump and Clinton are organized. This is all part of the 2016 campaign and should be organized under it. You divide Stein's Sanders outreach from Sanders' response, which is like so much of you editing incomprehensible. Thank you for continually making this article a mess. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 19:52, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

This is to allow better editing and decide appropriate weight. Also to allow new editors see at a glance what is under-represented in the presentation. SashiRolls (talk) 21:32, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

4. Should there be a gorilla on Jill Stein's page?

Comment:

Earlier, one user has argued that this is indeed important information, whereas two users disagree (myself included). Justification for the diverse arguments is found by searching for "gorilla". SashiRolls (talk) 14:10, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

(BLP/PA/You name it violation removed. Only in death does duty end (talk) 16:27, 19 August 2016 (UTC))

Look. This is not helping. SashiRolls (talk) 15:33, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

It helps a lot. You are aware of it, I am, but some people apparently are not: somebody somewhere took a bullshit-joke survey to include an ape to show how ignorant or dumb some survey-takers are. It went viral via facebook or whatever, because people saw and know how funny it is. Then somebody else quickly made some stupid photo-meme and it made the rounds. -- And now some want to include it in a wikipedia article? Seriously? No, I mean, really?? "important information"? Why do we even have to explain to people that it isn't? School much? 174.17.227.62 (talk) 15:44, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

VictoriaGrayson and Neutrality expressed support for keeping the polling data in. The user who deleted it never even tried to justify it on the talk page. Polling data is standard on Trump's and Clinton's pages. The fact that you don't like what the polls show isn't an argument for removing it. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 15:01, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

It's not a question of whether to include "polling data." It's a question of which poll results to include and how to present them. Please comment on the specific proposal here, which is to remove one sentence from the section describing her polling:

Stein has polled as high as 7% in general election polling (a June 2016 poll). A CNN poll (released on August 1, 2016) showed that 13% of Sanders supporters would vote for Stein (10% for Libertarian Party candidate Gary Johnson). A PPP poll released on 30 July 2016 showed her trailing behind a non-existent candidate called "Independent Harambe" (referring to the dead gorilla) with 5% versus 2% in general election polling. Between June 2016 and August 2016, Stein's polling average in a four-way race with Trump, Clinton and Johnson has ranged between 2.5% and 4.8%.

In case you missed my comment on this above, I'll copy it again here as I'm interested in your response: There's really no need for such "context" here. People understand what 2-5% polling means. I'm sure Stein supporters could also point to examples of where she polled ahead of so-and-so in a particular poll. Choosing a poll in which she was farcically polled against a name given sympathetic coverage in recent media (i.e. Harambe, the gorilla shot after a child climbed into its pen) is cherry-picking and clearly undue. 71.13.175.226 (talk) 15:18, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

It's far from clear what 2-5% polling means, and it doesn't hurt to provide the context. That she polls as high or lower than fictional candidates like Harambe (note that the respectable pollster - PPP - never identified this "independent Harambe" as the gorilla when it conducted the poll) and Dees Nutz is important for putting her polling numbers in context, as it suggests that individuals identified as independents in a four-way or three-way race will get 2-5% regardless of whether the polled know who they are. If you have more polling data to add, please do. I added the RCP polling average, and that 13% of Sanders supporters favor her, so it's not as if I'm standing in your way. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 15:30, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

A general statement to that effect would be fine--it's the highlighting of one specific poll result I am questioning. I also question whether it is true that any independent will get 2-5%. In fact, the results for Harambe and Deez Nuts were notable because they were surprising (and I'd wager to bet that less "interesting" names would garner less support from giggling poll respondents). For example, Lessig couldn't get more than 1% in a Dem primary poll despite being named several times. There's also a distinction between Indy candidates and minor party candidates. All of which is to say: yes to context but no to gratuitous insults masquerading as context. 71.13.175.226 (talk) 16:25, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

(In any case, the article actually misrepresents the poll results. Stein and "Harambe" were asked about in two separate questions. Stein's 2% came in a four-way question in which Gary Johnson got another 6%, whereas Harambe was listed as the only alternative to Clinton and Trump. This is another instance of bias in a long list substantiating the charge of systemic anti-Stein bias here.) 71.13.175.226 (talk) 16:36, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

You express valid concerns (unlike SashiRolls) but I think it still it warrants inclusion with the added context that you point out. In the interest of compromise, I'm prepared to drop it though. I've never been against compromise when presented with valid concerns. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 18:37, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Snooganssnoogans, they are called Wikipedia:Single-purpose accounts.VictoriaGrayson^Talk 18:15, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

@VictoriaGrayson:, no. Actually, he's declared himself to be a specific username which is not a single-purpose account. Are you unaware of that or just doubting it? 50.171.226.71 (talk) 04:44, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

were we talking about a gorilla or accounts? Talk:OK (ctrl-f on that page) SashiRolls (talk) 19:36, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

@AlejandroMS:: I reverted your recent edits.

In these edits, you

• Removed a very large amount of sourced material, including some longstanding content that no user has objected to and some content that consensus strongly favors; and
• Inserted a bunch of improper text, including:
  • POV text, e.g,, "the Obama administration's fierce prosecution of whistleblowers revealing government corruption" is not NPOV (see WP:NPOV); "several articles have been published lately that accuse certain individuals and organizations of creating anti-Stein smear campaigns" (not NPOV, especially when cited to a Russian propaganda network (RT) and a left-wing opinion website (Counterpunch)).
  • Unsourced and promotional text, e.g., "Stein's Harvard medical school education and teaching tenure combined with her holistic views do not put her at great odds with most of the leading scientists when it comes to topics such as climate change, global warming or vaccines." (No source provided, reference to her education is promotional in tone).
  • Addition of material that doesn't mention Stein at all and is irrelevant, e.g.:
    • inserting a reference to one appointment made by Pres. Obama (irrelevant and cited only to Wikipedia itself, which is not permitted, see WP:CIRCULAR)
    • inserting a discussion of the Green Party platform outside of the Stein-specific context;
    • inserting a discussion of GMO regulation abroad and across the U.S. (irrelevant to Stein's bio);
    • inserting a long (and rather misleading) block of text about the safety of Wi-Fi, cited to unreliable websites ("electromagnetichealth.org") and links to a variety of Wikipedia articles (again, irrelevant to Stein, improperly sourced, and a violation of WP:FRINGE).

Neutrality^talk 20:43, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

In your revert, you added back the bit about the gorilla. I suppose this was an accident? Several solid edits were also included in this, but I agree that there were a significant number of questionable moves in AlejandroMS's edits (though there were also constructive efforts included). SashiRolls (talk) 11:23, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

This revert (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jill_Stein&type=revision&diff=735538991&oldid=735538215) has already been discussed multiple times on the talk page, getting consensus the first time and in subsequent discussions. In pretending he/she has consensus for this revert, SashiRolls repeatedly misrepresents the view of one user, "JayJasper", who finds no problems with the content that was reverted. This has been pointed out to SashiRolls twice (edit: thrice now), but he/she persists in misrepresenting this user's views and claims that it entails consensus. Please restore. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 12:39, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

Despite the clear consensus above on whether or not the gorilla should stay on Jill Stein's page, this morning I found it had found it's way back onto the page (possibly in "Neutrality"'s revert?). I have also deleted the "On 3rd party chances" section along with its content as consensus seems to have been reached that these two items have no place whatsoever on her biography page. SashiRolls (talk) 10:56, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

There's absolutely no consensus that the content in the "On 3rd party chances" section should be removed. You just emerged from a discussion where it was pointed out to you that you misrepresented the views of another user, a user who favored keeping the content in the "On 3rd party chances" section as per my edit. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 12:17, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

Do you mean when JayJasper wrote: "Bottom line: the entire section was about an electoral analysis, not about about Jill Stein, the actual subject of the article.--JayJasper (talk) 16:05, 20 August 2016 (UTC) "

The user is referring to an older version (YOUR version where there's a ridiculous subsection called 'on third party chances' which contains an irrelevant Chomsky comment and a bunch of comments out of context). After seeing my edit (how the article looks like now), the user says that my "revisions have sufficiently resolved the issue". This has now been pointed out to you twice, yet you persist in misrepresenting the issue.Snooganssnoogans (talk) 12:27, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

I believe the text above concerning his "bottom line" is clear, and that your misleading revert tricked us all into believing you had deleted the section along with its content (as stated). There is no need to reply further, if JayJasper wishes to respond, either above or here, as to whether he saw what you actually did or just relied on what you said you did, that would be a helpful action in an effort to undo the hacking of this page. SashiRolls (talk) 12:38, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

The guy links to the edit in question, and says explicitly that my "revisions have sufficiently resolved the issue". How clear can he be?! Snooganssnoogans (talk) 12:40, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

I also removed a line from the lead which had no business being there (but was there to be sure that something negative appeared if the article is shared on FB or other social media, cf. FB opengraph debugger). Similar tactics have been used for the talk page to ensure that if it is posted to social media, a sentence about "pro-Stein" slant appears... SashiRolls (talk) 10:56, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

Should a WP:ANI be opened concerning the unhelpful edit behavior being exhibited on this page, as initially suggested by NeilN here.?

Comment:

I've added four "under discussion tags" for two different reasons.

For the words "highly" in "highly critical", and "celebratory" in "celebratory statement" it seems to me that the tone would be more neutral with less modification (of the adj and of the N). (incidentally, I agree that Stein is highly critical, but that expresses my opinion about how critical she is...

For the other two sentences tagged, there is no mention of Jill Stein in them. Both are meant to show that the position of someone who was an anti-vaxxer or an anti-wifier would be factually incorrect. This is irrelevant in the fist case because it is established that Stein's position is not the position of an anti-vaxxer, as Snoogs pointed out by adding the line about her negative response when being asked if she believed that vaccines caused autism. Even if it were relevant to her position, there would be no reason to add it: on Copernicus' page, there is nothing about the scandalous fact that he didn't realize that orbital patterns were elliptical. But it's not relevant to Jill Stein's position. Likewise for the citation on the safety of wifi. It is not relevant, because Jill Stein has not said (as far as we are aware) that as a matter of policy, once elected, she will/would ban wifi in all the schools (or even that she is opposed to it as a matter of policy.) SashiRolls (talk) 20:28, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

Also, having read the comments above, I agree with the problem concerning the obsession with the "now". I would have never included the bit on Brexit (which is a tempest in a teapot) if I were trying to write an objective article about Jill Stein. But, since it was already here, and knowing my own biases, I was certainly not going to delete it. The issue on Russia v. Ukraine is interesting because it marks a very strong distinction between the Stein candidacy and the Clinton candidacy. Still, given that the section on Russia still contains verifiably inaccurate statements... Again, happy editing. I'll check out Ballotopedia. SashiRolls (talk) 20:28, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

This has all been discussed before, and resolved before. These are new and ludicrous rationales to again try to remove the content that you find reflects poorly on Stein. This kind of content is completely consistent with what exists on other politicians' pages. I don't have the time to write an essay every day to address your daily freakout. These issues are addressed again and again throughout this talk page. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 20:42, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

This would not be an appropriate argument (even if it were true): wikipedia articles are not graven on tablets, but get changed over time. There has been no discussion on any of the four tags above, except between you and me. Let others express their opinion. (Also, one of the tags was added to a new bit added today by someone who's been quite active on Stein's running mates page... Thank you for making it impossible to revert your edit by adding the structuring elements I had previously added, but that you reverted. You have used 2 of your 3 reverts now. SashiRolls (talk) 21:31, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

I don't want to go overboard in noting all the overkill, but I do think there is, as Calandria Caladonia has already noted, a good deal of overkill concerning polls. Though I've specifically marked the sentence concerning Jill Stein's position concerning a rise in the polls, the whole paragraph should be vetted for WP:CrystalBall gazing it seems to me. SashiRolls (talk) 00:51, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

"It is appropriate to report discussion and arguments about the prospects for success of future proposals and projects or whether some development will occur, if discussion is properly referenced." Both Trump and Clinton's pages feature polling data and clarification of the polling data by reliable secondary sources. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 00:55, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

I don't think her lack of statement on Russia's human rights should be included. Lack of a statement is not a policy position. Does any other candidate have non-statements like this under "Policy Positions"? While it may be factual that she didn't say anything about Russia's human rights record during a particular speech, there is also the question of notability given that the only source is an opinion blog. Masebrock (talk) 07:02, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

agreed. moreover watching the video shows that the claim that she does not criticize Russian foreign policy (military spending) is demonstrably false. For comparison on human rights, this table can be sorted from highest to lowest: List of countries by incarceration rate. I have gone ahead and removed it, pending further comment for maintaining it...

I'm removing the back-and-forth on Sanders until there is some consensus on whether to include it, and if so on how to word it. The article's five full sentences on Sanders appeared excessive to me, and very shaky based on three key facts:

• The content was based mostly on a Reddit post made by Stein, a Tweet made by Stein, and a Democracy Now! interview. That could probably support some content (self-published sources are acceptable to cite for a person's own opinions), but it does indicate that there's not a very large amount of secondary coverage on the topic.

• More importantly, we absolutely cannot include five sentences on Stein's comments about, and overtures to, Sanders without also including Sanders' response. It would mislead the reader and paint an incorrect impression to do otherwise.

• Details about the Stein-Sanders back-and-forth can be and should be addressed, if anywhere, at Jill Stein presidential campaign, 2016. This is mostly in the context of the campaign, rather than in the context of Stein's biographical details (i.e., her personal views and positions, her career, etc.)

--Neutrality^talk 21:40, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

Agreed. If the text on Stein's outreach to Sanders supporters and to Sanders himself is to be kept in the article, then it is crucial not to omit that Sanders has explicitly rejected those overtures. Otherwise, the article gives the impression that Sanders has yet to take a position on the matter. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 22:35, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

We should mention that Stein offered to step aside so that Sanders could be the Green Party candidate. We could also mention - briefly - the reasons for the offer and refusal. But any greater detail belongs in the campaign article. TFD (talk) 22:44, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

I'd probably be fine with this. Anyone have suggested language? Neutrality^talk 23:04, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

With the exception of the Chomsky quote, which does actually pertain to going to the polls, the rest of the paragraph doesn't seem to me to be likely to be what a Wikipedia user interested in learning about Jill Stein would be most interested in. (just my opinion mind you...) — Preceding unsigned comment added by SashiRolls (talk • contribs) 02:09, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

I have deleted the following sentence from the page because it indicates a clear anti-Stein bias on the part of Wikipedia:

"In an August fundraising email, the Stein campaign cited a website poll (an unreliable measure of public sentiment) as indicative of a coming 'big jump in Jill's numbers'." (One of three wiki-voice references to "Why Friends Don't Let Friends Vote for Jill Stein" in the Wikipedia article, which the major anti-Stein players have repeatedly used (here 3x, but also on her running mate's page). This article originally appeared in an obscure magazine named Tablet (funded by a special interest) and has since been syndicated and repackaged to the sort of "Neutral" reliable source the anti-Stein crew seems to prefer to serious discussion: Truth Jihad, see here.

If the anti-Stein krew wish to argue for the inclusion of the Truth Jihad editorial, it would be helpful to rewrite the elements in wiki-voice in an unbaised manner, though I don't really believe this is a useful or neutral citation for Jill Stein's biography page.

When I first arrived on this page, there were 80K signs on the page. There are still 80K signs on the page. Why? Because the anti-Stein crew is fighting tooth and nail to prevent visitors to her page from learning anything positive about her and so delete any serious discussion of issues. One of the most powerful members of the anti-Stein crew is an administrator who goes by the name of "Neutrality", but who shows significant bias in his "copy-editing", writing and reverts (and who has been called out in the Atlantic for being the most active editor on Tim Kaine's wikipedia page just prior to his announcement as the Dems VP candidate). He (or his aggressive ally Snoogans) have removed the reference to the long and detailed debate between Robert Reich and Chris Hedges entirely on more than one occasion, and have now removed this direct quote from it (in the context of a biased paragraph on polling):

"We have to remember that 10 years ago, Syriza, which controls the Greek government, was polling at exactly the same spot that the Green Party is polling now—about 4 percent." We’ve got to break out of this idea that we can create systematic change within a particular election cycle (the previous sentence, which I chose not to include, was "And this is, of course, why I support Dr. Stein and the Green Party." Why? Because "this" refers to the prescience of Ralph Nader concerning the "corporate coup d'état" in the previous paragraph. I added the Chomsky quotation because Neutrality asked me to provide evidence that this was a "party-wide issue", though I assume he means international left issue...

Presumably, the anti-Stein lobby given free reign on her biography page to hassle good faith editors does not wish for anyone coming to this page to learn more about what Chris Hedges had to say... particularly the lines "We have bailed out the banks, pushed through programs of austerity. This has been a bipartisan effort, because they’ve both been captured by corporate power. We have undergone what John Ralston Saul correctly calls a corporate coup d’état in slow motion, and it’s over." (Note how during this campaign of misrepresentation, the context of Jill Stein's remarkably similar comments on bank bailouts and austerity has been removed in order to cherry pick a sentence about Nazi Germany, counting on the reader to be shocked by the statement ripped out of context.)

Similarly, the 2 hour long video from the University of the Left featuring Glen Ford, Jill Stein and Chris Hedges was also deleted without first seeking comment, as Chomsky has been on several occasions. Similarly, reference to Jill Stein preferring to spend money helping Puerto Ricans to spending money on the military has also been summarily deleted...

Looking forward to the anti-Stein clan beginning to work seriously towards removal of the anti-Stein bias tag that is on the page by allowing inclusion of some content favorable to her campaign, rather than simply toning down the many factual misrepresentations we've found in the thread (gorilla, Brexit, vaccines, putative lack of critique of Russian foreign policy, wifi, tweets vs. policy positions, etc. ...) SashiRolls (talk) 22:36, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

The editing of this page would be a lot better off if editors would focus on content, and refrain from describing other editors as pro- or anti-Stein "crew" or "clan". --Tryptofish (talk) 22:58, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

99% of the above is content based, talking about the factual misrepresentations and inappropriate clipping of citations... issues that have been brought up over and over again and summarily dismissed. Note that it was Alejandro who most recently pointed out the clipped citation on Nazi Germany. SashiRolls (talk) 23:05, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

SashiRolls, your constant personal attacks and lengthy rants — inveighing against not only me (with whom you appear quite preoccupied), but any and all editors who disagree with you on content — is tiresome in the extreme. You have been repeatedly and explicitly advised about WP:NPA, WP:AGF, and casting aspersions, yet you continue to refer to other users as "Clinton spinners"; "the anti-Stein lobby"; "the anti-Stein crew," and "the HRC folks"; you advance ridiculous conspiratorial assertions (that we are part of a shadowy cabal); and you deploy sarcasm and snark at every single opportunity; Please cut it out. Neutrality^talk 23:15, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

Seconded. Since this article is related to post-1932 American politics, it's covered under WP:ARBAPDS. Continued battleground mentality could result in sanctions. clpo13_(talk) 23:21, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

Comments on the 2016 polling paragraph:

Allow or prohibit counterbalancing argument to "Friends Don't Let Friends Vote for Jill Stein"?

Comments on the truncated citation from Jill Stein on the rise of far-right parties internationally:

Require impartial full citation of the argument for inclusion of the word "Nazi" or permit the continued partial citation without the argumentation behind it?

Neutrality, could you revert camarade Snoog please; this is pertinent in polling. Note it comes from a vote Stein or vote Clinton debate of very high quality... Of course the whole polling bit could go on the campaign page too... but if it stays, I see no reason not to include this. Thanks for your neutrality, neutrality. :)

Concerning the Left, internationally, Chris Hedges spoke of the long view in his debate with Robert Reich concerning the quadrennial election: "We have to remember that 10 years ago, Syriza, which controls the Greek government, was polling at exactly the same spot that the Green Party is polling now—about 4 percent. We’ve got to break out of this idea that we can create systematic change within a particular election cycle."

User:SashiRolls, 18:09, August 22, 2016

I'm not sure why this is directed at me — you added this content and Snooganssnoogans, quite properly, removed it. The obnoxious snark (i.e., sarcastic language like "camarade") isn't particularly helpful, by the way.

As to the issue: this quote from Hedges (an endorser of Stein) falls into the category of "generic punditry" that isn't helpful in a biographical article. (I highly doubt whether it would even be appropriate in Jill Stein presidential campaign, 2016). We already mention briefly that Hedges is a supporter of Stein. I see no reason why we should shoehorn a long quote from him into this article. That would be akin to including a laudatory quote from, say, Barney Frank or David Brock on the Hillary Clinton page about the brilliance of Clinton's campaign strategy or something. It just wouldn't belong.

If this was a full-scale theme of Stein's campaign — rather than an offhand comment by one of her supporters — then I might feel differently. There is zero evidence that this is the case. Neutrality^talk 23:22, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

This is directed at you for two reasons: 1) either you know the page better than I do and so you know that many of the quotes on the page are from non-notable sources, e.g. Dan Arel on GMOs. On the other hand, a long-time associate, fellow traveler, surrogate or whatever you want to call him, who is speaking precisely on the election at hand, is not a source conerning policy? Hmm... it's almost like Wasserman-Schulz doesn't have her place on HRC's 2016 campaign page... Justice is blind, neutrality. Power to the people. (yes, I imagine that's part of the program in other words.))SashiRolls (talk) 23:31, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

or 2) you don't know the page and are unaware of what is happening on this page (i.e. that the consensus is being ignored, that this page is biased (as it says on the page itself).

Concerning snark, when new members to the thread are greated with threatening language (I dare you to...), you are going to have to deal with a bit of snark now and then. We've seen snark recurrently from many (one-time) visitors to this talk page, and in some old edit summaries concerning your gorilla and Lucifer. Why do you think that is?SashiRolls (talk) 00:01, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

Strange that Occupy appears only as a caption on the page. (also)SashiRolls (talk) 23:40, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

I genuinely cannot make heads or tails of what you are trying to say. In any case, I have started an RfC on the Chris Hedges quote, below. It is really regrettable when editors focus on other users and make vague comments, when really we should be focusing on the content and making specific suggestions whenever possible. Neutrality^talk 23:51, 23 August 2016 (UTC)