Talk:List of pseudoscience topics/Archive 16

I am concerned that Wikipedia has declared an unstated war on individuals with religious viewpoints. Pages like this one basically set it up so that only atheistic viewpoints are allowed and any evidence or support to the contrary is attacked. This is particularly disturbing when large portions of the population believe in the ideas being attacked (it's one thing to criticize ancient Greek mythology when it has almost no adherents, it's another to criticize ideas like intelligent design when millions accept it). Is particularly difficult when most pro-I.D. sources are rejected for not appearing in a peer reviewed work even though the majority of peer reviewed works are run by Darwinists that work on keeping opposing theories out of the scientific debate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.173.254.10 (talk) 00:04, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Intelligent design is not presented by proponents as a religious doctrine, but as a scientific theory. As such, it is subject to the kind of scientific, rational evaluation that one normally would not give to religious doctrines. TechBear | Talk | Contributions 01:09, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

But Wikipedia ignores both the evidence presented by I.D. subscribers and the fundamental problems in Darwinism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.173.254.10 (talk) 03:56, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

You can, of course, provide reliable third party references outlining this evidence? And what is this "Darwinism" of which you speak? Are you by chance referring to the set of theories set forth by Charles Darwin in 1859, theories which have been superseded by further study into the nature of evolution and which not even the most dedicated evolutionary biologists subscribe to nowadays? TechBear | Talk | Contributions 15:56, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Wait a minute, I just had a thought. What if we were to add a new section under the pseudoscience list that described subjects that were still being heavily debated. The arguments could be listed alongside their parallels. Evolution-Intelligent Design, Anthropogenic Climate Change-Climate Change Denialism, ect. That way Wikipedia would not be listing these hot-button issues as "no question" pseudosciences, but as possible psuedosciences. No one is offended, but the discussion of pseudoscience continues. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.173.254.10 (talk) 04:09, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

That's quite funny - the only debate that is going on in these areas is with people who don't or wont understand the science,in situations like this for example. So no, because they are "no question" pseudosciences. Roxy the dog (talk) 05:51, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia - we're supposed to publish the truth, even if a large fraction of the world happens not to believe in it.

Obviously we have to have standards for how we determine "The Truth" - and that's rolled up in reliable sources and verification policies.

For scientific matters, that means that we mainly rely upon the latest scientific literature - and that means that by Wikipedia's standards ID is a pseudoscience because it makes scientific claims without following the scientific method (which is the definition of a pseudoscience). Now, if you can find books or journals that meet Wikipedia's standards that clearly show that either ID doesn't present any scientific claims - or that show that ID does indeed follow the scientific method - then we'll have to change this entry. Right now, I think we both know that you're not going to find such sources. So it's end-of-discussion time. You could of course complain to the WP:RS and WP:V policy makers and try to get the policy changed...but I really think you'd be wasting your time.

Regardless of what you and I think - the way that Wikipedia defines "truth" is what decides the matter here.

SteveBaker (talk) 06:21, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

This is absolutely ridiculous. I am a major in chemistry, a field of science, and for you to criticize me as being unscientific just because I don't accept Darwinism is appalling (although I can't say I'm surprised). The problem is that many kids and young adults use Wikipedia on a regular basis and they are being told, flat out, that there is no God and that Darwinian evolution is fact leaving no room for debate. I can find several sources that either present scientific evidence of I.D. or argue that Darwinian evolution is just as much a pseudoscience, but its going to take me a couple weeks since I don't have time to log on every day. Please leave this discussion open for a while and please stop insulting me simply because I don't agree with you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.198.218.30 (talk) 20:22, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

What is this Darwinism of which you speak? And why are you trying to declare war on those with religious viewpoints that accept science rather than demanding theistic science, which is of course blatant pseudoscience? . . dave souza, talk 20:33, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Theistic evolution, IRWolfie- (talk) 21:56, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

"I am a major in chemistry, a field of science, and for you to ..." That's an appeal to authority. I am embarrassed on your behalf that you are a chemist but deny the existence of evolution (since we are into fallacies, that's an appeal to ridicule if I had used it as a basis of an argument), but being a chemist does not mean you aren't unscientific and credulous about basic biology. I know many theologians and religious people who accept evolution and reject creationism/ID so let us not bring atheism and religion into it. Let's keep stating our opinions out of things, and stick only to what the sources say. Now, the sources that say ID/Creationism is a pseudoscience are strong, so for what policy based reason would it be removed? IRWolfie- (talk) 21:46, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

I am not the one declaring a war on religious people who believe in evolution (of which I do not believe there are many). I'm just tired of having my beliefs insulted every time I use Wikipedia and I'm scared of people believing that whatever is posted on Wikipedia must be true. Darwinian evolution is not even close to being declared fact due to the immense number of problems with it. I was not trying to appeal to my own authority, I am just frustrated that I can't be treated equally or taken seriously here simply because I don't believe in Darwinism. Like I said before, give me a week or two and I'll provide some counterpoints from some reliable sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.198.218.30 (talk • contribs)

evidence of common descent. Read it. evolution read it. You owe it to yourself to at least read it, point by point. Wikipedia is not the place for "counter-points", science isn't decided by debate. As a chemist you should know that if someone where to deny quantum mechanics it would be wrong of us to present the case for the denialist in articles or treat them as equal. As a chemist you wouldn't rely on a random unpublished blog from denialists in an article. Besides, wikipedia is not the place for debates, we aren't a forum. Also per first comment see below. IRWolfie- (talk) 22:34, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

IP editor from Colorado Springs, you seriously need to read the messages on your growing number of user talk pages (you should normally only have one of them). Unfortunately you probably don't even know where they are, and therefore can't read the messages left for you. This is just one of the many reasons why sock puppetry is not allowed here. You are most likely editing from a dynamic IP which changes. That creates a situation where you are in violation of our prohibition against sockpuppetry. The best solution is to create an account. It will give you more rights, more privacy, and much more respect. You have nothing to lose by doing so, and a lot to gain. Just choose a pseudonym.

Also remember to use edit summaries, read them, and read the history. As a registered user you'll also be able to follow along with what's happening in ways that unregistered users cannot do.

There are two things in what you say that need comment:

1. Offensiveness to anyone and bias in favor of anybody are not legitimate reasons for content decisions. Only when dealing with living persons do we take that into account, and even then only if the content is not properly sourced. If properly sourced, we include some pretty awful things in articles, and the subject of the matter has little recourse to get it removed. In fact, if they try to do it improperly, they are sometimes blocked from Wikipedia. I've seen it happen, so there is a proper way to do things here, and numerous improper ways.
2. Stating that a subject is considered pseudoscientific is not the same as saying that there is no debate or that the matter is settled. There are some subjects which are in a state of flux, but they are still seen as pseudoscientific by many. Depending on who those "many" are, we may or may not mention, state, or even go so far as to categorize a subject as pseudoscience. Sometimes the debate is within scientific circles, and then we don't usually categorize the matter as pseudoscience, even if we mention that it's considered so by some scientists. In other cases the debate is between certain members of the public and scientists, such as is the case with creationism and homeopathy, to provide another example. There is no serious debate in scientific circles about either of them, and they are both considered pseudoscientific beliefs, regardless of how much debate occurs in public. Therefore we categorize them as pseudoscience. All of this is because reliable sources say so, and we follow the sources.

Currently Intelligent design, Creation science, and Climate change denial are all categorized as pseudoscience by reliable sources. This has nothing to do with Darwinism or atheism, but because of the scientific evidence and the failure of believers to follow the scientific method when conducting research and making claims. That = pseudoscience.

You also need to carefully read the template at the top of this page. It describes how we deal with the subject of pseudoscience. Wikipedia is not the place to right great wrongs. We document everything here, including the fact that some consider your favorite topics to be pseudoscience, and we also document what believers think about it. Do you want us to delete that too? I think not. We are writing an encyclopedia here, not a running blog or discussion list, and this talk page is supposed to be used for improving this list, not promoting your religious beliefs. If you choose to continue this discussion as you have done, we will need to archive this discussion and possibly block your access here. Please don't make us do that. Take your religious battles somewhere else. -- Brangifer (talk) 03:33, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

To reply to User:128.198.218.30's earlier post:

• This is absolutely ridiculous. I am a major in chemistry, a field of science, -- Congratulations. But you evidently don't have a major in encyclopedia-writing - which is what's actually at issue here. We're not here to debate whether ID is right or wrong, true or false, scientific or pseudoscience. Wikipedia leaves that up to the reliable sources that we're required to use to establish what we may or may not write. There are plenty of references that Wikipedia considers reliable enough for us to use that most definitely state that ID is pseudoscience - and so far, we're unaware of any that meet Wikipedia's WP:SCHOLARSHIP criteria that say otherwise. By that standard, we can (and indeed must) say that "ID is characterized as pseudoscience" regardless of whether we personally believe it to be the case. If there are references that meet the standards of WP:RS for scientific subjects that say what you believe to be true - then you may write about that too. Otherwise, you may not - no matter your personal qualifications. Wikipedia's standard is verifiability in reliable sources - not "what a lot of people believe to be true" or "what a qualified editor claims to be true". So, in this case, by Wikipedia's standards - ID is most certainly considered to be pseudoscience because lots of second-party scholarly books and peer-reviewed articles in well-respected journals say precisely that.

• and for you to criticize me as being unscientific just because I don't accept Darwinism is appalling (although I can't say I'm surprised). - you are entirely incorrect. I did not criticize you for anything. I didn't even make a judgement about ID. I merely point out that we're writing what the reliable sources say. What you or I happen to believe is entirely irrelevant. That's how Wikipedia and all other good encyclopedias work.

• The problem is that many kids and young adults use Wikipedia on a regular basis and they are being told, flat out, that there is no God and that Darwinian evolution is fact leaving no room for debate. -- Wikipedia is indeed saying that evolution is categorically true. Yes - because our standards for saying that are fully met by the available literature. HOWEVER: You won't find us anywhere stating that "there is no God" because that has no backing whatever in reliable sources (basically because it's unfalsifiable). I personally, firmly disbelieve in God (because Occam's razor says that's the most likely working hypothesis). Yet I have personally removed several sections in Wikipedia articles over the past five years that erroneously said or implied that there is/are no God(s). If you find any article here that says that, just let me know and I'll work with you to expunge those too. That's because it doesn't matter what I believe - it only matters what the reliable sources say. This is why your qualifications (and mine) are entirely irrelevant to our editing of this encyclopedia. Similarly, despite your personal beliefs - you should encourage us to say "ID is pseudoscience" because (right or wrong) that's what the reliable sources tell us - and (right or wrong) that's what Wikipedia requires us to do. If you can't live by those standards (and I could certainly imagine you might not) - then Wikipedia is a bad place for you to be.

• I can find several sources that either present scientific evidence of I.D. or argue that Darwinian evolution is just as much a pseudoscience, but its going to take me a couple weeks since I don't have time to log on every day. -- That's fine. But please be sure that these sources of yours meet Wikipedia's strict criteria for "reliability" in regard of scientific matters - as explained in detail in WP:RS - and especially in WP:SCHOLARSHIP.

• Please leave this discussion open for a while -- There is no need to "leave discussions open". If you have reliable sources (within the rather strict bounds of WP:RS/WP:SCHOLARSHIP) then you can Be Bold and add the relevant information from those sources into whichever articles are in need of change.

• and please stop insulting me simply because I don't agree with you. -- Please explain where I insulted you. That was never my intention.

SteveBaker (talk) 12:52, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Like -- Brangifer (talk) 15:41, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

There is another aspect to this too. This article is entitled "List of topics characterized as Pseudoscience"...and not "List of Pseudosciences". I wish it were otherwise - but my effort to change the name failed to get consensus.

The unfortunate consequence of that is that we don't even have to show that ID is actually a pseudoscience - we're not saying that it is. We're only saying that some notable source has said that it is.

That's important to our OP because to get ID off of this list, you'd have to show that no notable sources ever said it was a pseudoscience. Not that it actually isn't a pseudoscience...that nobody ever even incorrectly characterized it as one! That's essentially impossible to do because there is no doubt whatever that "Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District" says that ID is pseudoscience - and so does "STATEMENT OF THE POSITION OF THE IOWA ACADEMY OF SCIENCE ON PSEUDOSCIENCE". So those two sources most certainly are notable and that means that nobody can deny that ID has been characterized as a pseudoscience.

There is really no ducking out of it.

IMHO, this a cowardly way for us to title the article. It should be "List of Pseudoscience" so that it actually means something - even if the WP:RS requirements are tougher and the list much shorter as a result.

SteveBaker (talk) 16:53, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Steve, I understand your feelings, but (and I know you understand this, but for the sake of others....) the strict demands of the ArbCom decision would indeed leave us with a very small list, but that list could be made... That doesn't mean this list would disappear, because it still serves a purpose. It documents the POV of the scientific community and other notables who have stated their views in RS, and their POV is broader than the ArbCom's inclusion criteria for this encyclopedia's Category:Pseudoscience, and we would like to document those POV here. It's part of our mission to document the sum total of human knowledge, as found in RS. A limited list could be made for those subjects which do meet the ArbCom criteria in the template above. Another option would be to make a section here for those items. -- Brangifer (talk) 03:17, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Another alternative would be to list evolution and climate change alongside I.D. and climate change denialism as "topics characterized as pseudosciences" since there are people who would argue that they are. However, I can see that none of you are willing to do that at this point in time. I'll be gathering sources to support this point, but I work 6 days out of the week so I can't do so quickly, so if you would be willing, please stop leaving me messages. By the way, if your interested in using scientific sources, then you can't sight Kitzmiller v. Dover because that is a legal issue, not a science issue. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.198.218.33 (talk) 21:50, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

ID is a legal issue, not a science issue: it's religion in drag, pretending to be science for the purpose of trying to get religion into US science classrooms. Though cdesign proponentsists can be expected to deny it. . . dave souza, talk 22:31, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

If you can find reliable sources which characterize Evolution and Climate Change as pseudoscience, then by all means feel free to include those subjects on this list. Again, inclusion doesn't mean that the topic is pseudoscientific; only that is has been characterized as such at some point in time. 172.250.119.155 (talk) 19:45, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Not quite. It also should be such that mentioning the characterisation in the main article would not be undue, IRWolfie- (talk) 20:00, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Undue meaning that a tiny minority of people hold such a view or a tiny minority of scientists hold such a view? The chart above seems to indicate that a significant amount of people hold the view that Evolution is not the best theory of the origin of human life. Right or wrong, clearly a lot of people don't believe in Evolution, and thus we are not dealing with a tiny minority here. 172.250.119.155 (talk) 03:21, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Biologists of course (and some other related fields). What the average yokel believes doesn't really matter, IRWolfie- (talk) 11:03, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Please show us where in WP:UNDUE it says that this only applies to scientific opinion and we should pay no attention to general opinion. 172.250.119.155 (talk) 03:26, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

On articles we may mention the opinions of the general public i.e denial etc, but as a societal issue, not a scientific one, IRWolfie- (talk) 10:21, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

@172.250.119.155: WP:UNDUE says it right here: "Keep in mind that, in determining proper weight, we consider a viewpoint's prevalence in reliable sources, not its prevalence among Wikipedia editors or the general public." A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 11:21, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

So in the case of this list, we are only needing a realizable source of what has been characterized as pseudoscience. Which brings me back to my original point above. If you can find reliable sources which characterize Evolution and Climate Change as pseudoscience, then by all means feel free to include those subjects on this list. 172.250.119.155 (talk) 06:21, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

By all means, if you can find such sources, they can be added to the article. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 11:32, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

@128.198.218.33: There you go. Find a reliable source where academics or researchers characterize(d) Evolution and/or Climate Change as pseudoscience and then you can add it to this list. While I don't agree with such a characterization, I certainly defend that it can be included in this list if a reliable source is provided. 172.250.119.155 (talk) 17:42, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

(includes content moved from "Do we want the list to include topics that are no longer considered pseudoscience?" )Roxy the dog (talk) 15:21, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Title also moved here. -- Brangifer (talk) 02:43, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

The inclusion criteria currently states that in order for an entry to be included, it need not be currently considered a pseudoscience. So, for example, plate tectonics would meet the article's inclusion criteria. Is this what we want? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:49, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Are you sure about plate tectonics? Perhaps you're thinking of Wegener's Continental drift which is rather different, though don't know if that was actually characterised as pseudoscience. However, good point about historical allegations. . dave souza, talk 20:03, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I meant continental drift. Thanks for the correction. Yes, I believe it was at one time considered pseudoscience. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 13:03, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I think it strengthens and broadens the usefulness of the article to show the historical progression some subjects have taken...in both directions. Some have been met with skepticism and called "pseudoscience", only to later be proven correct and then accepted by mainstream science. Others have been accepted from ages old, before the concepts of "science{" (and therefore "pseudoscience") had much meaning. They have later been shown to be false and are now called "pseudoscience", and those who hold to them are called "pseudoscientific" and "pseudoscientists". There are some which have always been, and continue to be, considered pseudoscience: chiropractic's foundation and only justification for existence, vertebral subluxation, just like homeopathy, have still failed to prove their existence and are rightly called pseudoscience. -- Brangifer (talk) 07:25, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

It's pretty much already in the article in the form of the Expanding Earth entry. To me I always think it's weird that so many articles call continental drift a theory, it's the observation, the mechanism is the theory and what's also interesting is about the reference to the glove not fitting in the linked article, Wegener proposed the match along the 200m isobath, and not along the coast, something his supporters and detractors both overlooked, but that is neither here nor there. I think the entry could be included if it is put into context Re: mechanisms and the later discovery of plate tectonics. It might be easier to tack it onto the expanding earth entry and add some context, IRWolfie- (talk) 11:01, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, we want it. We don't want to create a separate article for List of topics previously characterized as pseudoscience. The current article provides better context. I think that people expect to find this stuff in the current article. --Enric Naval (talk) 13:06, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

If you don't care about whether the topic is pseudoscience, then the article should include include a lot of legitimate science. The article starts with the definition "This is a list of topics that have, at one point or another in their history, been characterized as pseudoscience by academics or researchers." Smithsonian magazine has an article on "When Continental Drift Was Considered Pseudoscience" So that should be on the list. Roger (talk) 15:40, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

I believe that to be a wonderful secondary source which discusses the historical (mis)characterization. The topic could be included based on that source alone. Please craft some text for us to consider. Also, what do you think about the proposal to include Evolution to this list as another historical (mis)characterization? 172.250.119.155 (talk) 16:47, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, provide some suggested wording, with some sources, and this might fly. -- Brangifer (talk) 05:05, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't recall if a heading has been suggested, but something along the lines of "Formerly considered pseudoscience" might work. -- Brangifer (talk) 05:06, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

This is a duplicate thread of Talk:List_of_topics_characterized_as_pseudoscience#Do_we_want_the_list_to_include_topics_that_are_no_longer_considered_pseudoscience.3F. IRWolfie- (talk) 13:30, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

You're right. I don't have the time right now, so could someone else combine and bump that thread down here and just add this content to it? -- Brangifer (talk) 15:03, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

done... um... I think... I hope I did it right. --Roxy the dog (talk) 15:23, 27 August 2013 (UTC).

Good work. I have tweaked it a bit to complete the process. -- Brangifer (talk) 02:43, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't know how we can justify including anything that is so old, since the only characterization would have to be made long after the fact. Given the state of alternative models of the day and the biased viewpoints of the sources, I don't see how this could possibly belong. Maybe if we had an extensive history of the state of the models of the time? Still, since the theories were primarily spiritual in nature until the mid-to-late 1700s, claims of evolutionary models being pseudoscience don't make sense. It seems more that the creationists would like the spiritual theories of those times to be used as justification for theirs of today. --Ronz (talk) 17:53, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Early Evolutionary models, before Darwin's work on the Origin of Species, conflated evolution with social progress and thus, according to philosopher of science Michael Ruse, were pseudoscientific and were probably viewed as such during the 18th century as well as into the start of the 19th century (though the word pseudoscience may not have been used in reference to these early proposals).^[1][2]

• The characterisation is being made after the fact, by Ruse, a modern era philosopher of science. I made it clear in the text that this isn't Evolution being pseudoscience. "the theories were primarily spiritual in nature" sounds a lot like pseudoscience and this is more of a critic of the precursors to Herbert Spencer perhaps Comte etc, or so I would gather, IRWolfie- (talk) 23:09, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

That's my impression as well - an after-the-fact characterization. If it's a characterization based upon what today is considered science rather than upon the thinking of the time, then I don't think it belongs. Otherwise we open all early science and pre-science to being eligible for inclusion, which I don't think would be helpful.

Further, without a comparison of the science of the time, I don't believe it meets the inclusion criteria, especially given the recent discussions. --Ronz (talk) 17:35, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure what inclusion criteria you are referring to? I'm not sure what the issue with pre-science being included is? For example why alchemy is pseudoscience by modern standards would surely be an interesting entry IRWolfie- (talk) 20:13, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

The inclusion criteria is the introduction to the article, especially, "These characterizations were made in the context of educating the public about questionable or potentially fraudulent or dangerous claims and practices – efforts to define the nature of science, or humorous parodies of poor scientific reasoning." Seems like this example is the opposite of the intent of this article: taking early science out of the context of being developed when non-science prevailed. --Ronz (talk) 00:21, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

educating the public . . . Yep. defining the nature of science. . . Yep. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ‎ 108.184.99.186 (talk • contribs) 02:32, 3 September 2013

Ronz' logic would eliminate entries such a phrenology from this list. Terrible idea. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.184.99.186 (talk) 00:03, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Howso? --Ronz (talk) 00:09, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

it's right there in your "after the fact" logic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ‎ 108.184.99.186 (talk • contribs) 02:32, 3 September 2013

No, it's not. If I made it seem that way, explain how and I can clarify. --Ronz (talk) 23:37, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

• Ronz, this helps to define the nature of science, but is explicitly in the inclusion criteria which is the same as having due weight for the characterisation in a main article on the intersection of pre-Darwinian models and social progress, IRWolfie- (talk) 15:55, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

  Sorry, but howso? It's a completely misleading definition if we ignore the state of science at the time, especially the pressure of religious beliefs to stifle science then which today's creationists are some of the last vestiges. --Ronz (talk) 16:29, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Ronz, I encourage you to read both the Ruse and Pigliucci sources which describe how pseudoscientific applications of evolutionary theory continued post-Darwin, and well into the 20th century and the age of professional science (as applied to social progress and even somewhat more specifically to biology; though we are only mentioning social progress in the entry per consensual agreement).

You may also be interested to know that the term "pseudo-science" dates back to at least to the 18th century. Here -- in a discussion of alchemy -- is one of the earliest known usages in a printed work: . Printed in 1796, this most certainly pre-dates the birth of Charles Darwin, let alone the publication of his seminal work in 1859. 172.250.119.155 (talk) 18:30, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with Darwin's theories, nor that time frame. --Ronz (talk) 23:37, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Ronz, if there is any clarification you need to make to the text to make sure it is given the correct context feel free. Check the sources out, these sources are written by people who accept evolutionary biology and are also quite notable in their own right for their work on. For example, the blog and the editor of the book is Massimo Pigliucci, someone who has been vocal in the criticism of creationism and was a professor of evolutionary biology (now a philosopher of science) and has written many books on the topic. I might leave it out for now until someone can get their hands on the book (I was basing my addition from the blog describing the book), IRWolfie- (talk) 22:39, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes, access to the book would be nice. Still, I don't think we can justify including something that is characterized as pseudoscience centuries later and a good century before the term was used. --Ronz (talk) 23:37, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

The majority of the chapter in question is available for preview on Google Books. I think it is missing just a page or two. We are not talking about centuries later here. According to Ruse, pseudoscientific applications of evolutionary theory continued post-Darwin, and well into the 20th century and the age of professional science. 172.250.119.155 (talk) 17:26, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

I think you are missing his point, which is the "According to Ruse" part. Personally I don't agree with the reason, I think it is fine if the characterisation is separated in time, IRWolfie- (talk) 18:24, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

According to Ruse in Wikipedian translates to: According to a reliable source. And according to Ruse, "evolution" did not truly become a professional science -- separating itself professionally from pseudoscientific applications such as social progress -- until the 1940's / 1950's. Ruse tells us that even the professional scientist of the 40's and 50's and even onward still would profess about social progress; Ruse goes into detail with this particular phenomenon in his 1996 work Monad to Man: The Concept of Progress in Evolutionary Biology. Eventually, the ideas of social progress were completely routed out of evolutionary biology, where Ruse tells us that today there are very few people who would subscribe to such a "happy view of social and cultural progress". 172.250.119.155 (talk) 18:58, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

I feel you are still trying to conflate evolution as a theory with evolution and social progress. Can we please stick to the sources that discuss this in connection to pseudoscience (i.e "Still, it must be recognized that after Darwin, evolution was pseudo-science no longer"). IRWolfie- (talk) 19:49, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

You are right. I apologize. It is a difficult line to tread what the source says in total and which portion we have consensually agreed to include in this list. We are attempting to keep this pre-Darwin, even though the pseudoscientific mis-application of evolution to social progress continued post-Darwin. Ronz feels it is improper to include a modern characterization of an ideology from two centuries ago. My point is that the ideology (the pseudoscientific link between social progress and biological evolution) continued halfway through the 20th century. So we are not dealing with a modern characterization about some long defunct ideology from hundreds of years ago. Ruse's characterization extends well into the professional age of science, so more like 60 or 70 years ago. 172.250.119.155 (talk) 21:01, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

" even though the pseudoscientific mis-application of evolution to social progress continued post-Darwin". That's not what the source is saying, IRWolfie- (talk) 21:18, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps I am misunderstanding what Ruse has written, but he seems quite clear that this pseudoscientific mis-application of biological evolution to social progress continued to be made by academics and scholars well into the 20th century. If you have access to the source, you'll find what I am talking about on pages 239 - 241. Again, you can preview the book on Google books. Please do read it for yourself and let me know if I am incorrect in my understanding of what Ruse has written. 172.250.119.155 (talk) 21:36, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

So what are we waiting on at this point in order to reintroduce the text for which we had consensually agreed to add? 172.250.119.155 (talk) 19:44, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, but there's no consensus to add it. Please drop it per WP:STICK. --Ronz (talk) 21:12, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Ronz, you are the only one who opposes the addition. I cannot believe that Wikipedia work like this -- where one dissenter can obstruct other editor's consensual work. Please at least do us the favor of explaining your dissent, and addressing our responses. At this point, you have not extended us this courtesy. 172.250.119.155 (talk) 00:53, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

As brought up earlier, it would be extremely helpful for you to learn how Wikipedia works, especially when working on topics under ArbCom rulings. --Ronz (talk) 00:59, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Ronz, I do appreciate the advice. I have ingested a lot of guideline information in a short amount of time. I feel fairly confident about my understanding of how Wikipedia works. What I never came across is a policy asserting that a lone dissenter can stop a discussion in its tracks. Can you please point out where I can find that guideline? 172.250.119.155 (talk) 01:16, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Are all theories to be considered "pseudoscience" until they are proven or disproven by science? For a science to be "pseudo" I'd say it has to 1.) willingly reject scientific practice, yet 2.) claim to have scientific backing. Kortoso (talk) 23:03, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

No. Please read the first paragraph of the article. We're not assuming anything is pseudoscience. It must be sourced, and in a manner that fits the inclusion criteria for this article. --Ronz (talk) 00:25, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

To the best of my knowledge, King Tut's curse is a belief in the supernatural, and has no actual pseudoscience in it. Should supernatural topics be included in a list about pseudoscience? It seems to me that this list is being treated as a List of Things that are Wrong, regardless of whether an individual item is pseudoscience or not. Looking at the article's history, this is a problem that has plagued this article for a long time now. I don't think the article should be deleted, but I do think that it should say focused on pseudoscience and not include items that aren't pseudoscience. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 05:33, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

It's given an entry in a book of pseudoscience, it's also used in research as a given pseudoscience . Case closed. Your OR is irrelevant, IRWolfie- (talk) 08:52, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

The "encyclopedia of pseudoscience" never actually describes it as a pseudoscience. Reincarnation is also in that book. Would you suggest that belief in reincarnation should be listed here? How about we just add "religion" and "spirituality" to this "list of topics characterized as pseudoscience" and save everyone the trouble of pretending that these entries are being included based off a rational definition of pseudoscience?--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 16:43, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

@IRWolfie-: Your last two sources appear to be behind a paywall (or perhaps an account wall), so I can't read them. But based off your first source, I am not impressed. The source provides trivial coverage. I think we need to have higher standards here. Please remember that our purpose here as editors is to provide a high-quality, educational encyclopedia to our readers. By including non-pseudoscientific topics in this article we do our readers a disservice. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 16:56, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Without claiming to be very up on this topic in general, the pdf indicates that there is widespread belief that his is as factual as, say, Nessie, which we do cover. Clarification is needed about this [mis]understanding and how it relates to pseudoscience, presumably this could be cited to these additional sources. . . dave souza, talk 17:28, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Trivial coverage? Reliability does not matter about how trivial something is. Notability is not the criteria for inclusion. Featuring as an entry in an encyclopedia of pseudoscience is non-trivial anyway ... IRWolfie- (talk) 22:22, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Of course, it matters. Reliability is not a binary on/off switch. Rather, it's a gradual continuum. You've seized upon a source that provides only bare, trivial coverage of the topic. You have not provided any significant coverage or evidence that this is a mainstream view within the scholarly community. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:59, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Scant coverage? It has 2 pages in the skeptic encyclopedia of pseudoscience, IRWolfie- (talk) 23:10, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

An encyclopedia that is just a collection of articles from a magazine that were compiled together by the history of science major who runs said magazine. The article itself never likens belief in King Tut's curse to pseudoscience, but instead describes it as an urban legend.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 23:27, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

IRWolfie, re "notability is not the criteria for inclusion" (and other iterations about what the criteria for inclusion are/are not on this page): What is the criteria for inclusion exactly? I don't have much of a history with this page. Was there a consensus at some point that you're basing it on? Is it, as below, along the lines of "if it's wp:due to call something pseudoscience on its main article page, it's fit for inclusion here?" That would be easy enough to adhere to, I suppose, and would remove the need to debate about the inclusion of this or that here (e.g. if a given source was good enough to characterize as pseudoscience on an article page there's no point in questioning it here). There are already debates on the subject on those article talk pages, which this page has produced iterations of. Do I understand correctly? If so, is there consensus here such that this might be simply written at the top of the talk page? --Rhododendrites (talk) 23:59, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

No quite, because almost nothing can be called pseudoscience on wikipedia, because people assume its POV even if all the sources say it. Generally articles say it has been characterised as pseudoscience (usually by scientists). "if it's WP:DUE to say something has been characterised as pseudoscience on its main article page, it's fit for inclusion here". Some topics, such as Psychoanalysis have been characterised as pseudoscience, but otherwise still have some academic support (not much amongst psychologists, but amongst psychiatrists), saying "It is pseudoscience", would not be a fair reading of the totality of the sources, but saying "it has been characterised as pseudoscience for reasons X etc" is neutral. IRWolfie- (talk) 00:22, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm afraid I'm still unclear on the criteria for this page, then. If I'm reading your response correctly, it sounds like for the purposes of inclusion here you're saying the other article pages are effectively irrelevant. Or perhaps that pseudoscience mention in an article is sufficient but not absolutely required? For those instances that it's not required, what is the criteria for inclusion? It's clearly not simply "characterized as pseudoscience," so it must be based on the source of the pseudoscience allegation. Must be a scientist? Scientist or academic writing in a scholarly publication or peer-reviewed work of some kind? Multiple? Don't mean to be pedantic, but I think it being spelled out would avoid a lot of the effort on the talk page. --Rhododendrites (talk) 01:39, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

I think you've confused two points I was making together. I'll just repeat the first point. "if it's WP:DUE to say something has been characterised as pseudoscience on its main article page, it's fit for inclusion here", that is what I view the criteria for this page as. See the psychoanalysis page for an example, IRWolfie- (talk) 09:36, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

@IRWolfie-: According to the Skeptic Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience's own publisher, the book also includes supernatural claims. BTW, it also includes conspiracy theories. This not an article about the supernatural or conspiracy theories. It's about pseudoscience. Please stop insisting that we include off-topic entries in this list, OK? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 11:34, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Is it necessary to frame everything as being personal? Now, if you read that linked page it says: "Finally, the volumes include five classic works in the history of science and pseudoscience, including ..." and then goes on to list the paranormal as being included. What it does say is "Includes over 100 entries about pseudoscientific subjects", which includes the Tut entry as well as all the others. Framing it as "pseudoscience and paranormal" (in fact something can be both as the publisher highlights) is not what that link says. To recap, It's in the encyclopedia of pseudoscience, and I have shown sources that refer to it as being pseudoscience.

Initially you said that you think its not pseudoscience ("the best of my knowledge, King Tut's curse is a belief in the supernatural, and has no actual pseudoscience in it"), but I have shown that these further sources indicate or treat it as obvious pseudoscience, yet you think these are too "trivial". Your initial opinion is incongruent with those sources. Those sources back up the pseudoscience encyclopaedia as well, which does establish due weight. IRWolfie- (talk) 13:25, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

IRWolfie - So the inclusion criteria is "if it's WP:DUE to say something has been characterized as pseudoscience on its main article page." But just clicking on a few of the links here shows that several of them are not characterized as pseudoscience in the articles. Tutankhamun's curse, Séance, and Holocaust_Denial (3 of the 6 I clicked on and searched the page). They have references that are clearly about pseudoscience but there's no precedent for book titles in reference lists to be used for justification of claims by association. My point is, whether or not "it's WP:DUE to say something has been characterized as pseudoscience on its main article page" is a conversation that needs to happen at that article page first. To just claim WP:DUE here without gaining consensus on that page that it's WP:DUE seems problematic. Perhaps I'm still misunderstanding, though. --Rhododendrites (talk) 15:42, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

I didn't say "has been characterised as pseudoscience on its main article page", I said if it could be. It would not be undue for something to be included does not mean it has been included. The distinction is important. The actual content of the other article does not matter. IRWolfie- (talk) 09:05, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Except, of course, that nobody has yet to provide a single reliable source, let alone a general consensus of reliable sources, saying that this is a pseudoscience. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 15:20, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

In the Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience, the curse is listed under "Volume 1: Section 1: Important pseudoscientific concepts".

Feder's survey, the introduction says that it's testing "pseudoscientific archaeological claims" and "pseudoscience in archaeology". Feder also calls it "cult archaeology", a synonymous for Pseudoarchaeology, a sub-branch of pseudoscience.

Frauds, Myths, and Mysteries: Science and Pseudoscience in Archaeology, also by Feder.

Archaeological Fantasies: How Pseudoarchaeology Misrepresents the Past and Misleads the Public (I can't check the contents of this book)

Mind you, the amount of actual pseudoscience on this topic seems to be minuscule. Personally, I wouldn't mind if it was moved to Pseudoarchaeology#Examples. --Enric Naval (talk) 16:26, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

One of the problems with Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience is that it also covers supernatural claims and conspiracy theories,, and there is no clear delineation between which items are pseudoscience, which items are supernatural and which items are conspiracy theories. But even ignoring that, we should not be examining any individual source in isolation. What do other reliable sources say about this item? Hypothetically speaking, if we have 10 sources, and 9 do not describe an item as pseudoscience and one does, we shouldn't cite the oddball source that describes it as a pseudoscience. That's a WP:FRINGE view point and a violation of WP:NPOV to present fringe viewpoints as mainstream. I have no problem with putting this item in some other list. I know, for example, that we have a separate List of conspiracy theories. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 16:48, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

If somebody was to boldly delete the King Tut stuff, and perhaps comment that if anybody has decent sources to back up re-instatement, bring them to Talk, I'd be happy. I think the source is weak. It isn't pseudoscience, it is an urban myth. --Roxy the dog (talk) 17:04, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

AQFK. Naval provided information showing conclusively that it is in the book as pseudoscience, "Volume 1: Section 1: Important pseudoscientific concepts". The rest of what you said is flawed anyway since claims of the supernatural can also be pseudoscientific. IRWolfie- (talk) 20:05, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

High-End Audio is full of pseudoscience and bunk terms. The vagueness of terms even leak down into mid-range and lower-range audio gear. Monster (company) is a big abuser of terms used to describe their cables, including more recent things like overhyped headphones like "Beats Audio by Dre" and "SMS Audio by 50 cent", which are basically nothing more than a headphone amp with bass-boost built into the headphones and sold at high prices. Actually, there needs to be an entire article about this subject on Wikipedia! • Sbmeirow • Talk • 02:40, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

• The 10 biggest lies of Audio which came from The Audio Critic Issue 26 fromThe Audio Critic PDF archive
• Testing audiophile claims and myths
• Monster Cables, Monster Ripoff: 80% Markups
• Audiophiles can't tell the difference between Monster Cable and coat hangers
• The Truth About Monster Cable

For sure this is a rich area (see Speaker wire#Quality debate and Audiophile#Controversies) though cables are just part of it (and Monster just one company). Green felt-tip pens for CD, magic banadages for cables, Extended Resolution Compact Discs ... you name it. Perhaps the Audiophile article could be expanded a bit and then linked-to from here? Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 03:44, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

There appears to be enough in those other articles for the use in this article. • Sbmeirow • Talk • 04:41, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

I observe that an editor has just reverted my removal of this asinine political entry. I'm not not going to waste time arguing the subject here; I'll simply include a link to the most perspicacious scientific forum regarding the issue.--Froglich (talk) 05:04, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

LOL! You'd do better with VVatts Up With That ?, the website you link to is of course at hot topic. . . dave souza, talk 06:59, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Froglich that "Climate Change denialism" does not belong here. This criticises the existence of skepticism on the topic of climate change; the problem with that is that (a) skepticism is not a science, therefore it cannot possibly be anything-science (proto-science, pseudo-science, anti-science, etc) and (b) skepticism is a very healthy and indeed fundamental component of the scientific method. There are indeed many lay people who hold positions on climate change that are *unscientific*, but it is by no means limited to one side or another. A survey of American meteorologists shows only a simple majority support the thesis. You cannot call this pseudoscientific and lump this with Lysenkoism or perpetual motion on which there is no shred of doubt as to their falsehood.

Therefore, I think that either this section gets expanded and more nuanced and make a clear distinction between skepticism and pseudoscientism and include some of the wackier claims of each side (and there are many to choose from), or this item should be removed from the list.Willa wonky (talk) 23:49, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

If good quality reliable sources characterise climate change denialism as pseudoscience, then it belongs in the list. The survey of meteorologists does not address this, and you appear to be misreading its results which are actually quite interesting and supportive of earlier studies. . . dave souza, talk 19:34, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Do the sources actually say that this is pseudoscience? The three references in the article are all behind paywalls (or membership walls) so I can't check them. One of the problems with this article (and this has been noted before) is that the article is used as a 'List of things that are wrong' regardless of whether each item qualifies as pseudoscience. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:19, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

I don't believe the two articles support this label. The Science article does not mention the word "pseudoscience" and the Science, Technology & Human Values is a discussion of the lack of clear demarcations between "science" and "pseudoscience". (My first impression is that it is a bunch of nonsensical hand-wringing, actually, but it doesn't support the use of the term here.) The congressional report appears to support it and I've added a link to an Internet Archive copy. Gamaliel (talk) 22:03, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

This brings up another concern of mine. If, hypothetically speaking, we have 10 sources regarding X, and 9 out of 10 don't describe X as a pseudoscience, but 1 out of 10 does describe X as a pseudoscience, is it considered a pseudoscience? IOW, do we cite the oddball source and include X in the article, or do we go with the consensus of reliable sources and omit it from the article? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:14, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Naturally we should go with the consensus of the sources. But the omission of the word from a source does not mean that we should read that source as asserting that climate change denial is not a pseudoscience, it merely means that the source does not discuss the issue. Gamaliel (talk) 03:34, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm not seeing any consensus in this discussion that skepticism of AGWT (however "updated" in terminology to "climate change denial" -- an updating which positively screams of disingenuous alteration due to the fact that no net warming has been observed for over a decade now) constitutes pseudoscience. (There is demonstrably more pseudoscience, when not outright fraud, going on in AGWT formulation and promotion.) Furthermore, the "-denial" claim in the label, as derivative of holocaust denial, is highly insulting on multiple levels.--Froglich (talk) 20:06, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

You're welcome to have a POV, as are all editors, but being a climate change denialist doesn't exactly increase your credibility here. Your POV is definitely a fringe, pseudoscientific POV. As far as the "denialism" terminology, it is not exclusively related to holocaust denialism, but to many other forms, including HIV/AIDS denialism and Germ theory denialism, so no insult is intended. It's a generic term often related to conspiracy theories. See: Category:Denialism. -- Brangifer (talk) 21:20, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

The deciding issue here is whether the sources used characterize climate change denialism as pseudoscience. Do they or don't they? -- Brangifer (talk) 21:22, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

I have added a source to the National Center for Science Education which clearly identifies climate change denial as pseudoscience: NCSE Tackles Climate Change Denial, National Center for Science Education, January 13th, 2012 -- Brangifer (talk) 21:31, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

If I had to guess, most sources don't refer to this item as pseudoscience. Even when specifically looking for sources which call it pseudoscience, I only found weak sources. IOW, sources with just casual references to it being a pseudoscience with no depth or actual explanation as to how it's a pseudoscience. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:42, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Brangifer, nobody's disputing that certain groups with vested interests have quotes at-the-ready. The issue is whether or not there is consensus here to give this particular species of nonsense credence. I count four editors in this thread (the majority of those weighing in), who are either outright opposed to it or at least skeptical of its asserted scientific and/or ethical merits.--Froglich (talk) 22:52, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

dave souza and I certainly support its inclusion based on sources which do characterize it as pseudoscience. We know that you, 2.5% of published climate scientists, and the vested interests of Big Oil and the Koch brothers, think it's "nonsense. They have very deep pockets and they don't want their denialism included here, but they don't count as sources in this list because they are not RS which characterize it as pseudoscience. We have RS which do that, so it gets included. Fortunately those sources are on the same side as the 97.5% of published climate scientists, who know more than any of us editors what is really the case. Being an amateur in these matters, I place my bets on them being right, but that is neither here nor there as far as inclusion here. There are RS which characterize this type of denialism as pseudoscience, and that's enough for inclusion. "Climate Change Denialism" is indeed 100% Bollocks according to 97.5% of published climate scientists! Big money can't change the facts, and scientists tend to go with the facts. Not all of them can be bought.

The "scientific and/or ethical merits" are not decisive here, because, for purposes of inclusion here, we are not concerned with whether climate change or climate change denial is or is not actually pseudoscience. That's rather irrelevant (for purposes of inclusion). The question is whether RS have so characterized climate change denial. They have, and that is decisive here. -- Brangifer (talk) 23:14, 16 November 2013 (UTC) (Comment revised in response to next comment.)

I disagree with the later assertion: whether items are actually pseudoscience is relevant. Otherwise, we do a disservice to our readers by presently misleading information. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:25, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

I sympathize with you, and that's why we try to include subjects which really ARE pseudoscience (and use sources that are sympathetic to mainstream science, not fringe anti-science sources), but that's not the purpose of this list. The inclusion criteria ("characterized") must be followed. I have clarified my comment about relevance ("for purposes of inclusion"). We do not mislead readers by implying that climate change denial isn't pseudoscience. If there was doubt, we would leave it out, but 97% is a pretty large majority, and sources which sympathize with that position say it's pseudoscience.

Another matter is the PSI Arbcom decision linked at the top of this page. It notes the types of information we can include here, and we try to limit inclusion to the first three groups, and stay away from definitive statements in Wikipedia's voice that such-and-such IS pseudoscience. We just let the sources speak for themselves. Some of the subjects listed here are clearly in group one, and their articles are in Category:Pseudoscience. Others are not, but we still document what RS have said about them. The archives contain many discussions about this.

Pseudoskeptics and pseudoscientists have repeatedly and unsuccessfully attempted to sabotage this article in attempts to force a deletion of the whole thing. Their attempts usually are aimed at seeking to include claims by fringe sources that proven facts are pseudoscience. Such attempts are obviously frivolous and never succeed. Basically, one need not agree that content here is pseudoscience, just recognize that some RS, which are on the same side of the issues as mainstream science, have characterized a fringe idea as pseudoscience. That's all. I have now beefed up the content with a number of RS to document the fact that denials of the mainstream climate science position (97%) have been characterized as pseudoscience. -- Brangifer (talk) 00:57, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Do we have an article containing a list of pseudosciences? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:14, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

I don't think so. The closest we get is the Pseudoscience article itself, where a few representative examples are mentioned. Otherwise, check out Category:Pseudoscience. The following template is good. -- Brangifer (talk) 02:41, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Well, if we don't have a "List of pseudoscience topics", how about we rename this article "List of topics characterized or mischaracterized as pseudoscience" to make it more clear to the reader that the list contains items that are not pseudoscience? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 14:00, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

We've been over this about a million times and the current title is fine. Changing it always creates problems, and your suggestion actually introduces editorial opinion directly into the title! We keep it simple and just document what the sources say. For more detail of the controversies on each one, look in their articles. This isn't the place for that. -- Brangifer (talk) 17:03, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

I strongly disagree. The title is wrong, useless, horrible. It's a way for us to say "We need a list of pseudosciences someplace - and we can't be bothered to come up with a battery of reliable sources to show that they truly are pseudosciences...so instead we're going to cop out and say 'if anyone *ever* said it was a pseudoscience then it goes on the list'!". The result is a list that clearly contains things that are not pseudosciences...and it's weak on evidence for things that undoubtedly are pseudoscience. Who really cares whether someone at sometime in the past said "X is a pseudoscience"...but that's what the list is. What people really need to know is the answer to questions like: "Is this guy who's selling me magnets to cure my rheumatism talking bullshit?"...and for that kind of search, this list is useless. SteveBaker (talk) 18:50, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

@SteveBaker: I couldn't have said it better myself. In addition to what Steve just said, @BullRangifer:, if this issue keeps coming up time and time again, that indicates that that current title is not fine, correct? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 03:30, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

We did have a !vote on this some time ago - and the consensus then was for not changing the title. Maybe it's time for an RfC? SteveBaker (talk) 03:35, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you're up to AQFK. Is this baiting, IDHT, sarcasm, or some other possibility? I obviously think it is fine. The only ones who consider it problematic are usually those who object to their favorite delusion's inclusion. They refuse to understand the purpose of the list. The lead makes it plain. Don't overinterpret.

We are deliberately and carefully treading a fine line between no list at all (which would leave a hole in Wikipedia's goal of documenting the sum total of human knowledge) and violating the PSI ArbCom ruling. Push it too far one way and it gives pseudoskeptics and pseudoscientists an excuse to delete the whole list. We don't want that. Wikipedia's goal must be served. Push it too far the other way and we're violating the ruling by definitively categorizing in Wikipedia's voice many subjects which are borderline pseudoscientific. We shouldn't do that. That's why we limit content to "characterizations" found in RS. The source obviously believes in is pseudoscience, and so do we, but that's our own opinion as editors. We can't write that, except in obvious cases (see groups 1 & 2 above). We don't take a position as to whether a subject absolutely IS pseudoscience here, even if is really is, but we definitely do that in some of the articles. We abide by the ArbCom decision and limit content to the first three groupings seen at the top of this page.

We have had many RfCs on this matter, and this title has always been the best solution. Since nothing has changed, and no new arguments for change have been brought forth, such an RfC would be disruptive. If you don't like the list, no one is forcing you to play here. Of course there is a better option. Instead of creating disruption, how about abiding by the inclusion criteria and improving it? -- Brangifer (talk) 03:49, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

"The only ones who consider it problematic are usually those who object to their favorite delusion's inclusion." - not so, I have no such agenda. If you check you'll discover that I have no specific topic or topics that I' pushing for. SteveBaker (talk) 13:39, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

"...usually..." is the key word here. There are exceptions, and I'm glad you are one. -- Brangifer (talk) 05:20, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

SteveBaker's concern could still be met by creating a list which only covers items in groups 1 & 2. Go for it. -- Brangifer (talk) 03:52, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

My objection is that this list should NOT exist because it gives a false impression that it's an authoritative list of pseudosciences when it is not - and a better list SHOULD exist because we do need a list of such topics. Hence creating a new list in addition to this one is not a complete answer to the problems I see. SteveBaker (talk) 13:39, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

You are welcome to your opinion, but the title and inclusion criteria described in the lead are pretty clear. It makes no pretense to be "an authoritative list of pseudosciences." Is there some wording in the lead which is ambiguous or not clear enough? Please copy it here so we can improve it. Is there some wording which could make it even more clear? Please propose it.

We aim to fill a hole in Wikipedia's coverage of the subject. Such holes must not exist. Documenting the "sum total of human knowledge" aims at "total" coverage. Your proposal would miss a lot which this one covers, but it could work as a supplement. It wouldn't create anything really new that is not in the articles, but it would collect the pseudosciences we are allowed to categorize as such (groups 1 & 2) into one nice list. Unfortunately it would likely be the target of constant edit wars by pushers of fringe POV, but if it were created properly I'd likely help you build it and defend it, so go for it. It might be a great list and I'm not against the idea. Once you create such a list, and it proves its usefulness, you might be able to make a better argument for deletion of this list, although I still think this one serves an important purpose for the reasons mentioned. -- Brangifer (talk) 05:20, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Resolved

This seems to be an item which was included contrary to the inclusion criteria. I just took a look at the article Water-fuelled car and there isn't a single mention of pseudoscience. That needs to be fixed. RS must exist which do characterize it as such. Until that is done, it needs to be removed from this list. We can't allow OR to dictate what gets included here, without even a source. We not only follow the sources, we follow the existing articles. Article content and sources used there dictate whether we can include something here. When that is fixed it can be returned here, with proper sources. -- Brangifer (talk) 16:58, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Just because the EXACT word "pseudoscience" isn't used in the Water-fuelled car article doesn't mean that water-fueled cars isn't B.S. It takes some form of electricity or chemical reaction to split water into its components of hydrogen and oxygen. These are just a few links that I found via google in a few minutes, and I'm sure there are lots more out there. The bottom line is that it needs to be restored! • Sbmeirow • Talk • 17:50, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

http://articles.latimes.com/1986-01-06/local/me-13510_1_trial-date

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/alternative-fuel/gas-mileage/4271579

http://jalopnik.com/5944443/the-never+ending-dream-of-the-water+powered-car

http://aardvark.co.nz/hho_scam_faq.shtml

"there isn't a single mention of pseudoscience" in the article because the "fans" keep removing it. Wikipedia content is based on reliable sources, not the opinion of its editors. So put it back in, meets list criteria. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 17:57, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

I fully agree that it’s BS and pseudoscience. We are in agreement, but regardless of our feelings, we must do this properly. We always follow the sources, so this should be relatively easy to fix. The sequence to getting this restored is described at the link below.

I have mentioned the problem and created a thread there:

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Water-fuelled_car#Pseudoscience_isn.27t_even_mentioned_here

Brangifer (talk) 18:01, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

"Wikipedia content is based on reliable sources, not the opinion of its editors." My point exactly! -- Brangifer (talk) 18:03, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Fountains of Bryn Mawr, please remove your OR from the article and fix the problem first. It should be easy. Start at the main article and then restore the item here using a source that actually does clearly characterize it as pseudoscience. We really do need to ensure that RS have primacy over OR editorial opinion. -- Brangifer (talk) 18:43, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Added a second ref. Fixing the main article is a good idea (it desperately needs a "Criticism" section) but it is NOT a requirement to be listed here simply because "Wikipedia articles are not reliable sources for any purpose". If a topic meets this list's definition then it gets listed here. We can't de-list an article simply because the article has gone through one (or many) edit changes. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 00:44, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

Just some extra reading through this: the statement "We not only follow the sources, we follow the existing articles" is actually contrary to WP:WPNOTRS. Wikipedia is an unreliable source and can not be used for any other articles content. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 01:03, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

I see that I need to clarify my statement. Obviously our articles are not themselves RS. I've been around here for nearly ten years and we both know about WP:WPNOTRS, so I obviously must have meant something else. You should AGF and know that. My meaning of fixing the main article (which you grant is a good idea) first is based on the requirement for each item in a list to be notable and relevant (which can be established in two ways...see later).

Articles and lists are slightly different in that regard. Article "creation" is based on notability, while article content is based on RS, not notability. Lists are different, in that they require that each item is notable and also relevant for the list. In all cases, "RS always take primacy over editorial opinion" (one of my edit summaries directed at your OR in the article).

The two ways to establish notability and relevance for an item in a list are: (1) the item is notable enough to have its own article; (2) the item is accompanied with strong RS establishing relevance. Number two is because there are some types of things which cannot have their own articles, but are good enough for a list because of strong RS. In that case RS are enough. Otherwise we usually remove redlinks and require an item to first pass the gauntlet of article creation. In that process, RS are discovered and used, and if the article is strong enough to exist for any length of time, then we can also list the item in a relevant list, and accompany it with a couple of the best references which are "relevant". Why "relevant"? Because an article will have many types of references, but the list is on one topic, and the references must establish the relevance of the item for the list's topic. For this list, the item must have references which document "characterization as pseudoscience".

Right now neither ref mentions pseudoscience. The second ref, a book, uses the word ONCE in relation to cold fusion, but as a rebuttal against calling cold fusion pseudoscience! So we have patent OR based on editorial opinion in the article because those sources do not fulfill the inclusion criteria. Both sources should be removed (and the whole item removed until good sources can be found). The sources should likely be used in the main article. So the main article needs fixing. The article itself is not a RS, but the sources it uses can be, WHEN they are found.

I hope you now understand what I meant. If an item is too weak to be included here, that will be evident by the fact that its main article will not document that it has been characterized as pseudoscience. The very word won't even be in the article, and therefore the article should not be included in Category:Pseudoscience.

This makes evident the problem right here. We are agreed (our editorial opinion, which cannot substitute for RS) that Water-fuelled cars are BS and pseudoscience. I think that's abundantly clear. So why isn't that in the main article? We should fix that. If that cannot be fixed, it should not be included here. If it can be fixed, then it can be included here, together with a couple of the best refs which are relevant. Isn't that a good idea? -- Brangifer (talk) 06:41, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

I see the word "pseudoscience" specifically in the lead in the first ref. I think WP:LABEL about covers it. We do not use the word "pseudoscience" in the main article because we have the room to give readers detailed information about relevant controversies, no need for a one word name. This list is the opposite, its a short-hand description/listdef and short entry and we are not "in doubt" (the article in question is in the category "Water-fuelled cars", a sub-category of "Pseudophysics" and calls the topic un-scientific in every section, but in a weaselly soft pedaled wording style). Category:Pseudophysics has a to the point set of reasons for inclusion in a list like this. The word being present is not a requirement enumerated anywhere in the guidelines and there will never be consensus so it will never be clear-cut. Should this list have a value-laden label in the title, combine a preponderance of the evidence to match to a short-hand description, or even exist? Not the question here (RCF above). Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 15:35, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

Fountains of Bryn Mawr, you've won me over! As you are aware by now, my main concern is to avoid OR and editorial opinion being used instead of RS. In a case like this, I think we can be a bit lax with the exact wording in the RS because this subject falls in group 1, IOW "Obvious pseudoscience: Theories which, while purporting to be scientific, are obviously bogus may be so labeled and categorized as such without more."

The combined weight of the sources screams every word we'd use to help us define pseudoscience, and this subject is "obviously bogus." The last words "without more" seem to indicate that RS aren't absolutely necessary. Why? Because the obviousness of the case justifies invoking IAR and just using common sense. We are all agreed that this is pseudoscience and we "may....label and categorize [it] as such..." Actually I'm rather happy that you win this one and have convinced me. Thanks for your persistence and good spirit. -- Brangifer (talk) 06:23, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

This means that Water-fuelled car stays and can be categorized as pseudoscience here and elsewhere without violating the ArbCom decision, OR, or RS. I think we can mark this as resolved. -- Brangifer (talk) 23:25, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

As I explained in the RfC, above - it doesn't matter a damned whether the subject is, or is not a pseudoscience. The present list demands only that a topic has been "characterized" as pseudoscience. That said, our one reference here does not say that it's a pseudoscience. SteveBaker (talk) 03:26, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

Correct on both points. RS are needed. -- Brangifer (talk) 06:41, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

Whether someone actually uses the EXACT word "pseudoscience" isn't the point. Fraudulent Science = "Pseudo Science". Numerous articles and lawsuits have called it FRAUD / SCAM / BUNK, which means it is fake science, thus "water-fuelled vehicles" are pseudoscience! • Sbmeirow • Talk • 20:59, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

Per my other comment in this edit, I agree with both of you. Thanks! -- Brangifer (talk) 06:23, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Please summarize the outcome. • Sbmeirow • Talk • 22:16, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Sure. Water-fuelled car stays and can be categorized as pseudoscience here and elsewhere without violating the ArbCom decision, OR, or RS. I think we can mark this as resolved. -- Brangifer (talk) 23:21, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! Though I've done a mountain of edits over the last few years, I'm still not aware of every Wikipedia acronym that is thrown around in some discussions. What is OR and RS? Is it "Original Research" and "Real Science"??? Thanks! • Sbmeirow • Talk • 01:05, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Half right! RS = reliable source. -- Brangifer (talk) 03:18, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Resolved

Should anthroposophy be added here?Totorotroll (talk) 18:24, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

The pseudoscientific aspect is listed here: List_of_topics_characterized_as_pseudoscience#Health_and_medicine. -- Brangifer (talk) 19:19, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

1. We say that (for example) Crystal healing is characterized as a pseudoscience. It certainly has been characterized as such - and there is little doubt that it truly is a pseudoscience. It belongs on this list - and it would belong on the list I propose here. So far, so good!
2. We don't say that "Climate Change" has been "characterized as a pseudoscience". Clearly, climate change is a carefully researched scientific subject (even if you happen to disagree with the conclusions it comes to). So even if you think the conclusions are incorrect, you should certainly agree that it's not a "pseudoscience". However, if as Wikipedia editors, we're being honest, and unbiassed and if this article truly is a list of topics that have merely been characterized as pseudoscience - then Climate Change belongs on the list. Because, to pick just one of dozens of examples, US Senator David Vitter (clearly a notable person) characterizes it as such when he calls it, quote: "ridiculous pseudo-science garbage". There are tons of WP:RS reporting him saying that (for example in "The Guardian" newspaper - which is a reputable, reliable source which doesn't make a habit of misquoting people: http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/jul/29/climate-committee-republicans). So, if we're being honest about this article, we must include Climate Change as one of the entries. Clearly we're not doing that because we all know in our hearts that it shouldn't be characterized as a pseudoscience and regardless of how Sen Vitter feels about the truth of it, he should not deny that armies of scientists are avidly studying the subject. But that's only because we're quietly ignoring the title of this article and behaving as if it's really "List of Pseudosciences".
3. Interestingly, we do say that the reverse ("Climate change denialism") is characterized as a pseudoscience. Isn't this just total bias on our behalf? Why do we arbitrarily decide to ignore one characterization and accept the other?
4. We do include "Water fuelled cars" on our list. The idea that you can fuel a car with water is clearly pseudoscientific. It's in complete violation of the laws of thermodynamics, the proponents of the idea most certainly do not follow the scientific method - and no reputable scientist agrees that the idea is true. It would clearly belong on "List of Pseudosciences" - and yes, it's on our current list. However, I don't see a reference to anyone "characterizing" it as a pseudoscience. I see an article that says that opponents of pseudoscience hate the idea of water fuelled cars - but they probably hate the idea of having raw broccoli for breakfast too. The truth is that the hypothesis that you can extract energy from water is indeed a pseudoscience, but nobody that we've managed to find has actually said so (the writer of our link has a degree in chemistry - but he's a journalist, not a practicing scientist with expertise in the field of thermodynamics). Water fuelled cars would definitely belong on "List of pseudosciences" - because we can show plenty of sources saying that thermodynamics says it's impossible. But you could certainly argue doesn't belong on this list because we can't find anyone who actually says that it's a pseudoscience.

Replacing this article with "List of pseudosciences" would force us to be more honest about sources. It would allow us to retain Water fuelled cars and exclude Climate change whilst keeping Climate change denialism. It would be a clean, factual list of what things truly are pseudosciences and which are not.

SteveBaker (talk) 16:02, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Unless I'm missing something, the examples you give don't demonstrated anything wrong here. Water-fuelled car and Climate change denialism are currently in, while Climate change is not. Am I missing something? --Ronz (talk) 16:38, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

His point, I think, is that because of the current inclusion criteria climate change should be included -- and the only reason it isn't is because of POV -- whereas if the article name were changed it would be clearer that climate change should be excluded. --— Rhododendrites ^talk |  16:54, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes. Under our present rules, "Climate change" should be included and "Water fuelled car" should not. Under my proposed change, "Climate change" could be legitimately excluded and "Water fuelled car" legitimately included - no change to the current content of the article - but without POV bias. SteveBaker (talk) 03:23, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

Howso? We still need references. What specifically is being proposed that changes what references we use and need? --Ronz (talk) 19:01, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

Right now you need a reference that says that someone (could be anyone) said "X is a pseudoscience". The reference has to be from a reliable source (a newspaper, for example) - but the person making the statement can be an unqualified, biassed, unreliable kind of a person.

Under my proposed change, you'd need a reference that says directly that "X is a pseudoscience"...which (because of WP rules) would have to be a science journal or some qualified/reputable scientist saying it in print.

The difference isn't whether you do or do not need a reliable source - it's what the source has to demonstrate about the person making the claim. Right now, the reliable source only has to demonstrate that some random, unqualified person said "X is a pseudoscience" for it to get onto the list. In the approach I'm seeking to institute, the person saying "X is a pseudoscience" has to be a reliable source.

Doing this would change this list from the present rather useless list of topics that someone wants to bitch about - into an actual list of topics that are making scientific claims without following the scientific method. SteveBaker (talk) 05:16, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

"A list of topics that are making scientific claims without following the scientific method." Gosh, haven't we got that already? --Roxy the dog (resonate) 05:22, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that's exactly what we have here, and that's its purpose. -- Brangifer (talk) 06:46, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

SteveBaker, that's not true. This isn't the first hyperbolic, denigrating, statement of this kind you've made about our sources. Haven't you looked at the inclusion criteria for where we should get our sources? We do try to vet them to some degree. We don't use just any type of source, as you claim. If you do find a source that's poor, then please replace it with a better one. The main article will usually have several to choose from. -- Brangifer (talk) 06:46, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

"Under my proposed change, you'd need a reference that says directly that "X is a pseudoscience"...which (because of WP rules) would have to be a science journal or some qualified/reputable scientist saying it in print."

Thank you for the detailed explanation. So why propose that the reference be limited to "a science journal or some qualified/reputable scientist saying it in print"? Science journals and scientists focus their efforts on promising science, so it seems an extremely poor restriction. --Ronz (talk) 17:36, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Exactly. The bar is raised so high that FRINGE and PARITY won't apply and scientific skeptic sources won't be allowed. Those guidelines were designed to allow use of good sources which this proposal will disallow. That's a policy violation. All policies and guidelines govern content here, and Steve will be excluding the use of some of them. Unfortunately, since science journals and bodies don't discuss or even mention pseudoscience very often, that will mean we will have a hard time finding sources for many of the obvious pseudosciences. -- Brangifer (talk) 22:30, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

As Brangifer notes, there is WP:PARITY, which justified the exclusion of climate change. The sources saying it's real -- scientific academies, meeting our standards for academic consensus -- outweigh the opinions of any individual (let alone politicians, who aren't reliable for science) or self-selected group. And remember IAR: even if the letter of our self-imposed laws allowed climate change on the list, we wouldn't put it on, because we're writing an encyclopedia, not a tract about demarcation.

That said, PARITY also suggests the handful "questionable sciences" (per WP's criteria; cf. ArbCom above) should perhaps be flagged somehow. (Psychoanalysis; polygraphy; a couple more mainstream-ish alt-meds, e.g. some aspects of acupuncture.) That's because it's not just fringey proponents, but mainstream sources, that take them seriously: and those sources are of more-or-less equal parity with the sources that do demarcate them as pseudoscience. The expository text we have for these topics might be sufficient qualification, but we could be more explicit. But that wouldn't be worth it if it's going to lead to every topic's proponent clamoring to have their pet area so labelled. There's no ideal way. Demarcation is never straightforward for every single topic, though most topics on the list are clearly pseudo. --Middle 8 (talk) 02:03, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

• Comment The title as it stands defines the intolerable situation (in "scientific terms") that the criterion for inclusion is not an intrinsic function of the included view itself, but of the history of its associated polemics. Someone said something rude about it? Ipso facto it has been characterised as pseudoscience.

Veeery interesting... right?

In these shoes?

But if someone shows that the observations were shown not to have been collected and verified as claimed in the published material, or show clear evidence of tampering, or figures are not published according to the alleged criteria of the publication medium (the journals etc) then we have either sloppy, or dishonest, or incompetent "scientific" misbehaviour, or outright incomprehension of the intrinsic nonsense of the topic, or Burtian or Vitterian dishonesty in pushing a POV, or dishonesty in hindering a rival from presenting counter-arguments, and I think we can then justify our speaking of certain classes of pseudoscience. They are not all the same you know; there are more ways of being unscientific than of being scientific. But in any case that is totally different from, and a lot more important than, whether some fatcat with agenda, or some nut case, speaks of "voodoo" science, whether or not he so much as understands what the function of peer review is or should be. And there might be a good argument for splitting the article in the interest of coherent discussion. At the moment its merit and value are about on a par with an article arguing the relative merits of two splinter faiths or garage dancing groups. And about as interesting or encyclopaedic. JonRichfield (talk) 16:50, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

This entry was removed because it lacks sources:

• Jain cosmology is the description of the shape and functioning of the physical and metaphysical Universe (loka) and its constituents (such as living, matter, space, time etc.) according to Jainism, which includes the canonical Jain texts, commentaries and the writings of the Jain philosopher-monks.

Please find sources saying it's pseudoscience before restoring. --Enric Naval (talk) 17:23, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Hello Collect,
I noticed you reverted my previous edit about Expanding Earth with the motivation "there is a difference between a hypothesis which is now "obsolete" and "pseudoscience" - we do not call Newtonian physics "pseudoscience" IIRC even if "obsolete"". Although that point may have merit, I only later noticed that Expanding Earth was already listed in this article under Idiosyncratic ideas; I just listed it under "Earth sciences". So what do you think about the current description under "Idiosyncratic ideas", because either we should also remove it from there, or your argument has apparently had no merit until now (and we may still want to change the listing). Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 14:50, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

I rather feel that hypotheses which are not currently popular are not "pseudoscience" in the sense that no reasonable person could find value in them. Taken to the logical conclusion, Newtonian physics is "pseudoscience" since no major group endorses Newton for Relativity etc. <g>. A strict use of "pseudoscience" seems to me to cover a lot of material properly belonging in it, but a loose usage could cover a great deal of material which is not "pseudoscience." Cheers. Collect (talk) 03:23, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

There is a difference between a good model which has been refined and pseudoscience. A pseudo-scientific model never was, nor ever will be, a good model for the natural world. aprock (talk) 05:14, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

In which case, you have to redefine "pseudoscience" alas. As your apparent definition would include thousands of principles which are not in your opinion "good models" including essentially every religion and religious movement in the History of Man :(. As that is not the definition we appear to use, that use would appear to require a specific consensus to adopt here, as well as approval from ArbCom to alter its prior decisions which would be affected. Collect (talk) 13:41, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

I have edited Expanding Earth a few times, and it's usually qualified as obsolete, not as pseudoscience. --Enric Naval (talk) 15:00, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

<g> I do my best to follow where the reading leads me. Collect (talk) 15:16, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

It being an obsolete hypothesis is trumped by the fact that an albeit small number of people are still promoting it. Therefore, it qualifies as pseudoscience and should be restored to the article. (Simply refer to it as an obsolete theory in the text.)--Froglich (talk) 22:50, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

shows a revert of what I had considered a fairly simple edit. Which is superior for purposes of the project?

Dianetics (which is involved in Scientology) – L. Ron Hubbard's pseudoscience that purports to treat a hypothetical reactive mind by means of an E-meter, a device which Hubbard was later legally forced to admit "does nothing".

or

Dianetics - a pseudoscience that purports to treat a hypothetical reactive mind by means of an E-meter

Noting that Scientology is specifically a "new religious movement" under ArbCom statements for Wikipedia. Collect (talk) 21:36, 2 January 2014 (UTC) .

I am looking at Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Scientology. Where does Arbcom say that "this topic can't be mentioned as context in any entry in a list of topics characterised as pseudoscience, even when it's highly relevant"? --Enric Naval (talk) 22:22, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Your assertion is nicely useless here. The only pertinent issue is whether Christian Science is a religion or not. IT is considered a religion by the US Government, and state and local governments. It is linked to "religion" in more than an order of magnitude RS sources, and if one removes sources before 1920, more than two orders of magnitude. Check Questia if you doubt this. There is no doubt that "dianetics" is pseudoscience, but your extrapolation to an organisation legally recognized as a religion is problematic. Scientology is listed in the "new religious movements" category on Wikipedia, and thus falls into the decisions on those movements -- specifically the Cirt and Beback cases. , and . ArbCom does not make content decisions, but where the acts of sanctioned editors are clearly connected with their edits, it is reasonable to assume that POV pushing is not liked. Over a lengthy time period, Scientology-related articles have been subject to biased or aggressive editing that has failed to comply with the fundamental policy of NPOV. This has involved both some editors who appear to be supporters of Scientology, often editing from the Church of Scientology's own facilities and IP address, as well as some opponents of Scientology. but noting that Scientology per se is a "church." Questia finds a total of 13 books with both Scientology and pseudoscience in the text -- though only three appear to link the two -- one saying it mixes religion and pseudoscience. Scientology + religion gets 280 books. Do you understand that you appear to hold a fringe position on whether it is pseudoscience or religion? Cheers. `Collect (talk) 22:55, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

I don't have a strong preference here. The former contains more information than the latter (which is good), but the latter is more readable (which is also good). I suggest a combination of the two. Also, the part about "Hubbard was later legally forced" needs some explanation. I assume that this was part of some court case? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:16, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

I tried to make it more readable. I don't which one of the sources contains the information about being legally forced. --Enric Naval (talk) 22:53, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

This entry removed because it lacks sources and it doesn't have an article:

• Global Weirding - "Global Weirding", a term first popularized by Thomas Freidman in a 2010 New York Times Op-Ed column,^[3] is the claim that climate change causes or will cause various weather-related extremes to become more intense, with instances of such extremes then subsequently constituting (via fallacious circular reasoning) evidence in support of the claim.

Isn't this just a variation of global warming? I am not sure that it merits its own separate entry in this list, specially without sources from scientists. --Enric Naval (talk) 17:30, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

My understanding is that it's just a suggestion for indicating that global warming can imply increasingly extreme incidents rather than a gentle warming of a degree or so. All of which is subject to continuing peer-reviewed research and is certainly not pseudoscience. . dave souza, talk 18:38, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

The circular logic claims to proof is what renders it pseudoscience, not the mere predictions.--Froglich (talk) 09:03, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

It still needs sources. --Enric Naval (talk) 23:38, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Sagan specifically said religions and spiritual beliefs are normally not categorised as "pseudoscience." One editor has repeatedly added Christian Science to the list here. The discussions at that article decided that it was improper to categorise it as "pseudoscience". Should religions in general be now added to this list? (Noting that aspects of almost all religions would fall into this category were we to do do). Cheers. Collect (talk) 23:00, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Collect, it sounds like you took Sagan's quote from List_of_topics_characterized_as_pseudoscience#Religious_and_spiritual_beliefs without reading the original source. It doesn't say what you think it says. --Enric Naval (talk) 13:38, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

"Collect" appears to be referring to the ongoing dispute he is having with me (we're both at 2RR, with him presently having the last word). The problem here is that he is conflating Christian Science (a particular religion) to all religion in an attempt to establish a straw man fallacy. (Side-note: I didn't originally "add" CS to the list; I merely reverted one of his earlier deletions of it while browsing historical edits, with that Undo apparently flagging him as he responded very quickly.)

"Christian Science" is blatant pseudoscience per Group #1 (see top of this Talk page) -- it contains the very word "science" in its title, while being manifestly not science. The first sentence of the CS Wikipedia article contains the word "metaphysical". CS is not only pseudoscience, it is archetypical, quintessential pseudoscience. Other religions (e.g., Judaism, Hinduim, etc), or "faith" in general, do not qualify for the pseudoscience moniker when they do not make pretenses to science (as Christian Science obviously does).--Froglich (talk) 23:53, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Sorry -- using "straw man fallacy" when I am the person raising the issue here is not especially utile. Discussions here in the past relied on Sagan and his position that most religions could be called "pseudoscience" by someone -- and the fact that your position was not prevailing in the past might indicate that your desire to add this particular religion is doomed. My Watchlist includes at this point about 3.384 pages, so any feeling that I am somehow watching this page more closely than others is errant, untrue, and of no actual value in the discussion. And if you read the archives on that subject, you would discover that the use of "science" in the religion name does not assert "scientific method" but was a commonly used term in the 19th century for the topics related to metaphysics. The religion makes no claim as to heliocentrism or other scientific concepts, thus you apparent belief that "it has 'science' in its name, and it is not actual 'science' therefore it is 'pseudoscience'" is fallacious. (the entire page is mainly on this topic) Cheers. Collect (talk) 00:12, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Appending ... is no conflict with the so-called natural sciences to which Dr. Millikan contributed much. Nor could there be. The natural sciences deal wholly with the affairs of matter; the other science deals wholly with the affairs of Spirit. seems quite to state that CS is not "science" in the usual modern meaning, nor did Eddy claim it to be. Cheers. Collect (talk) 00:27, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

See: James R. Lewis (9 February 2009). Scientology. Oxford University Press. p. 8. ISBN 978-0-19-971595-4. Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 03:13, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

I can understand saying that we don't call beliefs pseudo-whatever, but beliefs and actions are not the same thing. Dougweller (talk) 06:53, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Agree. Let's distinguish beliefs (I believe that Noah embarked all species into the Ark) from claims of science-supported facts (I have archaeological/geological evidence of Noah's Ark physical existence). --Enric Naval (talk) 13:38, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

"The discussions at that article decided that it was improper to categorise it as "pseudoscience"." If you had searched and linked those discussions, you would have found archive 4, where several editors agree that "pseudoscience" is well-sourced and appropriate. The article used to have sources for its pseudoscience status but they have disappeared over time, and I couldn't find any edit summary saying "pseudo", which suggests to me that they were silently removed. And, of course, you are using a WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS argument. This article has enough sources to justify inclusion, and the content of other article is not relevant as soon as the content here is well sourced. --Enric Naval (talk) 17:08, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

While I'd like to see proper sourcing for describing it as pseudoscience, it's clearly way over the line. "Scientific statement of being: "There is no life, truth, intelligence, nor substance in matter. All is infinite Mind and its infinite manifestation, for God is All-in-all." That's got less scientific credibility than Flying Spaghetti Monster theory, is clearly a religious view presented as science, and should be shown as pseudoscience. . dave souza, talk 18:33, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

I was just templated for thinking Christian Science is a religion here. Is it a religion or is it pseudoscience? Cheers. Collect (talk) 21:31, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Froglich has cited Group 1 from the page header, but it's obvious to me that no credible argument in his favor arises from Group 1:

"1. Obvious pseudoscience: Theories which, while purporting to be scientific, are obviously bogus may be so labeled and categorized as such without more."

Before CS can be considered part of this group, there must be a sourced claim that CS purports to be scientific. Absent that, Froglich's proposition fails ab initio. It is not sufficient that CS has the word "science" in its name. It is also not sufficient that sources have called it pseudoscience, if the argument is to rely upon classification in Group 1 which, again, requires a claim to be made by the adherents of Christian Science, not its critics. Roccodrift (talk) 21:53, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

You mean like (direct quote from the CS article follows) their faith-healing "view that sickness and death are illusions caused by mistaken beliefs, and that the sick should be treated by a special form of prayer intended to correct those beliefs, rather than by medicine."? Are you seriously suggesting that such quackery cannot be labeled pseudoscience if its practitioners believe in it?

The very first sentence of this article reads: "Pseudoscience is a claim, belief, or practice which is presented as scientific, but does not adhere to a valid scientific method, lacks supporting evidence or plausibility, cannot be reliably tested." I am furthermore unimpressed by the argument that Christian Science does not qualify because it adopted its "Science" name back in the 19th century -- I don't really care; as it's the 21st century now, and CS is still making medical claims.

Your line of argumentation in this thread has amounted to (in my appraisal) an attempt to remove CS' claims (which would necessarily include their medical claims) from the realm of falsifiability, a mentality which is the embodiment of a pseudoscientific outlook.--Froglich (talk) 22:46, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Your original research is duly noted, and I also note that you placed the emphasis on the wrong word:

"Pseudoscience is a claim, belief, or practice which is presented as scientific, but does not adhere to a valid scientific method, lacks supporting evidence or plausibility, cannot be reliably tested."

Again, in order to satisfy the criteria you are relying upon, there must be a claim -made by the adherents of Christian Science- that Christian Science is scientific. You have helpfully pointed out that CS relies upon prayer, therefore it is an operation of faith, not science. If you can come up with a source that actually supports your claim -a source, not your own personal reasoning- then you might have something to support your argument. At this point, I see nothing but naked assertion and fallacious reasoning. Roccodrift (talk) 22:53, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Again, I am unimpressed with the argument that CS should get a pass because it named itself in the 19th century (the portion of my response above which you are obviously ignoring). This is the 21st century now; and the group still has "Science" in its very name. Therefore, it is manifestly making claims to science via its own label.--Froglich (talk) 23:07, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

OK, we get that you don't think CS should "get a pass", but do you have any argument at all that is germane to criteria #1? Because if you cannot credibly satisfy the criteria, then CS must come out of the article. Roccodrift (talk) 23:15, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Faith-healing, peddled under the term "XYZ Science", is obvious bogus medical pseudoscience, and therefore must stay in the article.--Froglich (talk) 06:16, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Instead of focusing on a specific religion i.e., CS; those wishing to add that CS is pseudoscience should focus on specific aspects of the religion. We don't say Scientology is a pseudoscience, we have specific practices of Scientology that fall under that category. I am not familiar enough with CS to know what if any specific practices of the religion would fall under this category, however, some editors have pointed out there are enough sources out there that say CS is a pseudoscience those sources should also point to specific practices that would make it a pseudoscience. Again we should focus on the specific psuedoscientific practices if there are any and mention those specifically. VViking_TalkEdits 06:32, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Considering that the faith-healing medical pseudoscience of CS, in specific, comprised the entirety of my last one-sentence post, I am having difficultly fathoming how anyone missed it while replying directly to it.--Froglich (talk) 09:00, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, faith healing by itself alone is not pseudoscience. But arguing about this won't get the article written. How about we do what VViking suggest? Let's read the sources and add the specific pseudoscientific practices? --Enric Naval (talk) 23:46, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

The problem is that no current practices appear to fall into the "pseudoscience" category as "Metaphysical stuff" is not considered to even pretend to be "science" now - and Eddy's use of the word "science" in the 19th century had a quite different meaning from its current usage. Words do, indeed, evolve. Cheers. Collect (talk) 23:53, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Consider Catholicism - major "faith healing" religion , Baptist and Pentecostalism , and a host of other religions which would fall into your net here -- in comparison CS is actually less "pseudoscience" than the others if you use that as your measure. Of course I trust you will add Catholicism now with such a stong source. Cheers. Collect (talk) 14:29, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

I've removed the bit about Confederate revisionism because a) it failed verification and b) I don't see how this purports to be a pseudoscience. This seems more like a political opinion, and do we really want to include political opinions as pseudoscience. Anyway, I want to open this up for discussion. Thanks. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:14, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Confederate revisionism is not "a political opinion"; it is premised upon pseudohistorical claims. The link to the Pseudohistory main article was right there in the section containing the topic you deleted; its first sentence reads:

Pseudohistory...purports to be history, and uses ostensibly-scholarly methods and techniques (which in fact depart from standard historiographical conventions), but is inconsistent with established facts and/or with common sense and often involves sensational claims whose acceptance would significantly require rewriting accepted history.

If this article is going to have a section for pseudohistorical claims, then topics which meet the description above (and Confederate revisionism certainly does) may legitimately be listed here. I.e., Holocaust revisionism would qualify even without its bollocks gas-chamber forensics. Secondly, critiques of pseudohistory generally do not contain the word "pseudoscience" in them, so it's a bit disingenuous to blank a topic if its otherwise applicable references lack said word). Lastly, the relative shortness (at present) of the list of psuedohistorical entries displayed in this article is not really that good of an excuse to maintain that it be kept that short (as another editor circuitously did by maintaining that if Confederate revision were included that we'd then have to address Chinese historical claims); the pernicious claims of Confederate revision are considerably more topically relevant than, say, the currently-retained Ancient astronaut hypothesis or Fomenko's chronology.

Consequently, I have reverted the deletion.--Froglich (talk) 21:17, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

This doesn't belong in an article/list of pseudo-scientific things. Perhaps a pseudo-history list is the place for it. Please read the intro paragraphs to the article to understand criteria for inclusion. Thanks --Roxy the dog (resonate) 21:52, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

@Froglich: Really? So, if somebody claims (or rejects the claim) that Ronald Reagan helped bring down the wall, is that pseudoscience? Some argue that he did. Others argue that he didn't. Is it pseudoscience? If so, which side is the pseudoscience? Regardless, none of the three sources you provided actually stated that this was a pseudoscience. It failed verification.

In any case, it appears that we have 3 editors who agree that this entry doesn't belong in the article and one editor that does. Would anyone else like to weigh in this debate? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:50, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

We could always include all historical revanchism and irredentism here ... as well as all "political theories" based on such. And of course such outmoded economic beliefs as Bryan espoused. But since the term "pseudoscience" is not really applicable to such, we would simply make this article fully risible. Collect (talk) 22:11, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Alternatively, we could eliminate all the entries in the Historical section (leaving just the main article link) -- which would be the logical end to your argument. Doing so then precludes any potential appearance of POV favoritism pro or con for the few that are listed (or listed and then deleted after a month, as is the case with Confederate revisionism).--Froglich (talk) 00:16, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

The article currently states that the organization known as the Flat Earth Society is a pseudoscience, which, of course, is patently ridiculous. An organization cannot be a pseudoscience. An organization can, of course, advocate a pseudoscience but groups of people are not pseudoscience. That said, any current belief that the Earth is flat may well be pseudoscience. So, maybe the issue here might simply be an issue of wording. Can someone please suggest a wording that calls the belief that the Earth is flat is pseudoscience, rather than groups of people are pseudoscience? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:20, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Nobody has responded so I'm going to change the article from the organization to the actual theory. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:11, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Done. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:15, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Climate change. Dougweller (talk) 06:27, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

I removed "memetics" from this list. A search on Google Scholar reveals hundreds of scientific and theoretical articles on memes. A single source in a science writer's book does not trump actual scientific practice. I am One of Many (talk) 07:51, 15 January 2014 (UTC) I'll also add that there is no evidence from the scientific literature that there is any consensus (even weak consensus) that theoretical approaches using memes are characterized as pseudoscience. If the criterion for inclusion on this list is that someone has characterized X as pseudoscience, then it might as well include every science ever conceived. I am One of Many (talk) 08:08, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Isn't it a fairly common characterization? Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 08:36, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Many view this list as absurd, but to say that an active field of study is characterized by pseudoscience because one non-scientist, James Polichak, characterizes it as pseudoscience just proves the point. At least, one real scientist ought be required to say that something is pseudoscience for it to be characterized as such. I am One of Many (talk) 08:49, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Did you click my link? The very first person there characterizing mimetics as a "Darwinian pseudo-science" is this guy, who by all appearances is a scientist (not that that is strictly a requirement of this article's inclusion criteria). Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 09:13, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Well, then that should be the source because the current source doesn't make a claim of pseudoscience. Here is a link where one can get the original article. It turns out that no where in the article does he characterize what he calls "memetics" pseudoscience. This list is baffling. Why isn't climate science and Darwinian evolution listed here? Even though ridiculous, there are plenty for reliable sources that characterize these sciences as pseudosciences. I am One of Many (talk) 09:43, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Usually "reliable sources" are not "ridiculous". jps (talk) 13:55, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

How is characterizing an active field of research in science not itself fringe, when it is held by a very small minority at best? How is this not placing undo weight on the views of a few? I think careful consideration should be given to the view that some of the items on this list appear to be based on fringe views that have been given undo weight. I am One of Many (talk) 17:36, 15 January 2014 (UTC)