Talk:Loona/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Loona. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Page move

External links modified

Jinsoul and Haseul's animals

Based on the "Singing in the Rain" MV, Jinsoul's animal clearly appears to be a blue betta, and not a simple fish (@ 2:56 ; as you can see it's clearly the same → http://natgeo.petsmart.com/content/img/betta-fish/betta-fun-facts.jpg).
- If one of the 5 remaining girl is a goldfish or whatever, Jinsoul won't be able to be a simple "fish" (= the whole species)
Based on "The Carol" MV (@ 2:45), Haseul is depicted as a dove or pigeon (both are from the "Columbinae" subfamily), but thanks to the "aesthetic" of the "Let Me In" MV, her animal is clearly a dove (a dove appears @ 1:36/1:37 quickly in the middle of the frame, and her "boy" version is wearing a white outfit → dove)
- + Kim Lip is already an owl, which is a... species of bird, so I don't think Haseul would represent all the birds, if Kim Lip is also a bird

To end this, I would like to say that korean people are actually thinking the same thing, because on the korean wikipedia (namu wiki), Jinsoul's animal is listed as a betta fish and Haseul's as a dove. Carrott' (talk) 17:57, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

Are the things like "is the April Girl and is represented by a deer and the colour pastel rose" even notable to include? Looks like trivia to me... what are the sources saying? If there are no published sources to confirm those animals, then it should have been removed altogether in the first place instead of guessing what animals are they representing, does this even has any significant meaning to the group or are they "represented" just for fun? Snowflake91 (talk) 18:35, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

I just watched back the MVs and Haseul is most likely a dove, and not getting as specific with Jinsoul her animal is probably some sort of goldfish? Also regarding notability; I am unsure myself but I thought I would just leave the info in as I have seen similar things in other articles (Gugudan, Cosmic Girls & Berry Good). Abdotorg (talk) 18:41, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

If someone finds Korean sources from news article about animals it would be great, also some Korean sources which simply confirms a member would be welcomed – for example, there is no need to have 11 different teasers for every girl as a source from Twitter or Youtube, it should be replaced by a single source from media Snowflake91 (talk) 18:55, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

I don't know if BBC will keep up with the whole color+animal+month concept once they debut, but so far this is the pattern they've been using, so I do believe this is relevant/notable. I've looked up on korean media outlets, but none of them refers to this concept (but this one talked about "the July girl" : "두 멤버와 7월의 소녀가 만나 새로운 유닛이 결성될 예정이며" (something like "the 2 girls will meet the July girl to form a new unit")) Carrott' (talk) 19:09, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

Look, I think it's not relevant to specify the specimen of the animal in these cases. HaSeul told on an interview to Fact in Star that her animal is bird, not dove. Plus I really doubt that the other upcoming members are going to have another fish specimen as representation, so let's keep it just "fish" until a new member be represented by another fish specimen. ~SolsticePrince 20:29, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
- In episode 154 of Loona TV, it was confirmed that JinSoul's animal is just a "fish". ~SolsticePrince 16:36, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

"Law of Creation"

Animals and Colors

It's confirmed info. Important because their whole concept (MVs and albums) is centered on this. I got three references. Why do not keep it? Honestly. ~SolsticePrince 11:55, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

Because we are not a fan site, that's why. Please acquaint yourself with the very idea of an encyclopedia. That it's "confirmed" means nothing at all--decent secondary sources, not Naver or AllKPop, need to verify this. And if the marketing focuses on it, that still doesn't mean you have to start listing blood type, favorite mammal, color, and hair length for every person. Drmies (talk) 07:24, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
- I'm not talking about Naver or even AllKPop, but reliable sources like Ten Asia, MK News, and X-Ports News (엑스포츠뉴스). Oh, and please don't be rude; let's keep this a civilized discussion (we are not twitter). ~SolsticePrince 21:29, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

Just read this: "Her animal is a rabbit and she is represented by the color hot pink. Her designated location is Paris, France." – does this seriously looks like a notable information for someone who visits the article for the first time ? Whats next, are we going to add fruits to Red Velvet article, because one of their songs centered around that ? There must be some kind of manual of style or consensus about how the "members" section should look like, but I cant find it right now. Probably, there should be only stage name and position (singer, drummer...), without date of births, real full names, romanizations etc., so this should probably be removed as well, especially because IPs are constantly edit warring about the name of the oldest member – if there is no source, dont add it. Snowflake91 (talk) 22:07, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

"Designated locations" aren't confirmed info nor relevant. But the animals and colors DO have refs in at least three reliable sources-- Ten Asia, MK News, and X-Ports News (엑스포츠뉴스). It's the mark of their unique concept. And yes, that kind of stuff is very notable since it's not temporary representations (such as Red Velvet's temporary fruits) but the core of all the group's idea AND it's in the news AND it got reliable sources. Oh, and... Well, date of births, romanized names and birth names are important since we are in a virtual encyclopedia (just like what Drmies said before, "please acquaint yourself with the very idea of an encyclopedia"). ~SolsticePrince 23:54, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

Dates and birth fullnames are important on their own article (when they will be notable to have one), but this article is about a group, so date of the birth and full names of the members are probably completely irrelevant. Snowflake91 (talk) 08:52, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

Okay, but... What about the animals and colors? I got reliable references. Should I add that back? ~Solstice Prince 18:46, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

No. They are just wp:fancruft. Dr. K. 18:51, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

While I see why you would say the colors and animals are "fancruft", we do have to think that part of LOONA's whole point is that each girl has a unique animal, month, and color. Their months matter, yes, because it shows what order they were revealed. Their birthdates and real names should be kept on this page because this is done for almost all groups that are still in their pre-debut/debut stage, such as TWICE or Gugudan. The whole section just being their names is doing a disservice to any fans or anyone in general coming to this page looking for more information about the members in general. Db Rider (talk) 19:42, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

What kind of impact does those "animals" have? Why are there no animals in any of their music videos then, if this is an important part of the concept? It is just a marketing thing, just like zodiac signs in Cosmic Girls... Snowflake91 (talk) 20:16, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

I'm sorry what? Each solo music video features an animal. ViVid a rabbit, Around You cat's galore, Let Me In a bird, Kiss Later a frog, Eclipse an owl, Singing In The Rain fish, and Love Cherry Motion a bat. ViVi's solos are unique where her animal (a deer) is not featured, but she is an odd case all together (Being in a sub unit first, not having her own solo song, having a feature in each of them, etc.). Each animal helps identify the member and gives them a unique symbol to help remember them. The animal motifs in Around You, Kiss Later, and Singing In The Rain are ridiculous as well, so I don't know where your knowledge of LOONA is coming from if you haven't simply watched any of their music videos. So while it IS a marketing "thing," it is nonetheless important, therefore they should be added back into the article. Also, how is their dates of birth fancruft or marketing? This is information that is beneficial to all fans and readers. A mass deletion of the WHOLE member section was completely unnecessary. Db Rider (talk) 08:17, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

This marketing fluff will only enter this article, and any other articles in a similar predicament, if you get other editors to agree with you. So far, you have no WP:CONSENSUS that this meaningless marketing ploy can be added to the article. Dr. K. 08:31, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

I would argue SolsticePrince agrees, as they have tried to compromise with your edits to this article that came suddenly out of nowhere. These changes were made suddenly and recently with no talk at all about it, which seems unruly. And why must LOONA be unique from other group pages? Why not their birthdate? Almost all newly established K-pop groups include that in the member section. Japanese idol groups put the colors of each member on the group wikipedia page, even if they have their own individual one (Morning Musume, Fairies, etc.). The Korean Wikipedia page for LOONA as well includes ALL this information, and they have plenty of information. And HOW are their birth names and dates marketing fluff? Those are FACTS! I am looking for a place where one of the editors who removed all this info about the members got consesus from other editors before doing so, and I simply cannot find it, which seems ironic when I (And others!) are being told to simply stand with these changes that came out of left field. On the WP:CONSENSUS page you so kindly linked to, it says "Consensus can be assumed if no editors object to a change." At least two editors have objected to this change. That is NOT consensus. Db Rider (talk) 08:37, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Now add a sources for animals, date of births, and colours. Current Naver link confirms only stage names and nothing else, every single member needs a source, which is not a fancafe or something. Snowflake91 (talk) 09:26, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Will begin to do so. As others have said, members have mentioned their specific animals in LOONA TV, and their colors appear in their music videos. Will begin to cite these as soon as possible, I invite others to do so as well rather than simply remove the information. We know the information is true, finding the EXACT sources will take a minute though. One good example are the music video descriptions themselves, straight from the company. I.E Choerry's music video description explicitly says her color is purple.^[1] Db Rider (talk) 09:43, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Everything from a company itself is a primary source and is therefore marketing campaign, we need published sources in third-party sources like media etc., YouTube video is not a reliable source. Snowflake91 (talk) 09:55, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

I recommend asking at talk page at Wikipedia:WikiProject Music (or Wikipedia:WikiProject Pop music) about the opinion on what should be included in Members section on band articles, those Jpop groups are plagued by fancruft as well so they are not to be a model example of how the article should look like. Snowflake91 (talk) 11:07, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

On the primary page, it directly says "primary sources that have been reputably published may be used in Wikipedia." Videos are reputably published by the company of the group itself. Therefore, it is reputable and we may use it as a source. And I do not see why you and another certain editor are so vehemently against this, the months, colors, and animals make LOONA unique and show just how unique LOONA is as they have actually kept to this concept unlike other groups. The "Purple" girl is also named Choerry. Her name is literally in the title of the music video. I am truly wondering if we're seeing some editors with the greater good in mind. And since videos are "primary" (As said by you yourself) and primary sources ARE allowed (Unless otherwise noted SPECIFICALLY for this article) I will be using them and ask others (SolsticePrince) to do the same.Db Rider (talk) 13:59, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

No, you cannot use YouTube music video as a source for animals and colours, it needs to be a published source, even if you see animals and colours in the video, it is still original research. Published sources below are much better. Snowflake91 (talk) 14:11, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Please direct me to somewhere where it says I cannot use the music video description boxes, PUBLISHED by the company itself, and then I will not due so. If you can, I will not do so. But seeing as your lack of knowledge for the group is evident (Asking if there's any animals in any MV is a ridiculous question, no matter who you are.), I would like an explicit statement rather than you just saying "You can't do that!" Thanks! Db Rider (talk) 14:26, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Just read about reliable sources, published independent sources, and primary sources – YouTube music video is not a reliable published source, and the channel is not even verified by YouTube. Or, if I must copy/paste it from Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources: "Definition of published: The term "published" is most commonly associated with text materials, either in traditional printed format or online. However, audio, video, and multimedia materials that have been recorded then broadcast, distributed, or archived by a reputable party may also meet the necessary criteria to be considered reliable sources. Like text sources, media sources must be produced by a reliable third party and be properly cited." – Company of Loona is not a third party source here, so its not reliable. Snowflake91 (talk) 14:34, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Actually I have sources that confirm colors^[2]^[3], animals^[4] and MONTHS^[5] plus their official Cafe Daum^[6] which also talks about that, but I don't add such info to the article anymore because Dr.K and Abdotorg said it's trivia.
Ummm... Db Rider, ViVi's MVs do have deers, even in EILY.
by the way Snowflake91 really never watched ANY music video. I'm shook ~Solstice Prince 12:17, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Yes I did, and the only "bat" I saw was a 1 second of bat silhouette somewhere in the middle of the video – yup, definitely notable. And because the girl is wearing purple outfit for most of the video, it is definitely important information that she is a "purple girl"...its just a concept, it is not important in members section. Why not adding fruits to Red Velvet article than? 🍇🍉🍊🍍🥝 Snowflake91 (talk) 13:05, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Fruits were temporary for RV, but Loona's animals and colors are important because all their future music videos as a whole group will center around it. But well, these stuff are already on k-pop wikia so let's respect everyone here and let's keep this article the way the admins like it. Love and peace everyone
You can check the most notable animal appearances in their music videos here^[7], here^[8], here^[9], here^[10], here^[11] and here^[12]. ~Solstice Prince 13:17, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

I made a little research about band articles on Wikipedia, and include only the ones which are either GA or FA. Now, check how members section should look like (note: Yes, they mostly have their own articles, but some of them dont; however, there is still no date of births or anything about those members without an article, only name and position.)

etc. Snowflake91 (talk) 14:26, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Ok, but let's look at K-POP, shall we?

Whether the group is male or female, has 4 or 12 members, it includes their name AND birthdate, and even more sometimes. If anything, our member section is LACKING. We should not compare this page to English or American pop bands, rather Korean ones. For newly established K-pop groups, they have a member section WITH their birthdate. This is NOT fancruft NOR marketing. Db Rider (talk) 05:36, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Why does it matter, we should take examples from GA or FA standard articles (only BigBang and SNSD are "good articles" in K-pop, out of groups), basically what are you saying is "because other K-pop articles are fancrufted, this one should be as well", see Wikipedia:Other stuff exists. And Twice article is not good anyway, when the Members section is (almost) bigger than History section, then it is obviously something very wrong with it, not to mention too many pictures. I'm fine with date of births if they are sourced (altrough I would prefer only "born in 1999" instead of full date), but colours etc. are not needed, neither are tons of Hangul transliterations. Snowflake91 (talk) 07:51, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

My goodness, the colors, animals, and months are not put in there, because you and Dr. K were adamant they not be. They are not in there. I'm simply stating we should keep the dates of birth. As it literally says in Wikipedia:Other stuff exists, "These 'other stuff exists' arguments can be valid or invalid." As I said before, "For newly established K-pop groups, they have a member section WITH their birthdate." They have sources. The "born in 1999" is insufficient info and I have rarely seen a Wikipedia article that simply says someone's birth year rather than their whole birth date. I personally think we should stop trifling over what goes in the member section, leave it as is (With their full names and birthdates, simple as that.), and wait to see when all members are debuted what is needed and what is not (If the colors and animals will be very prominent as a concept then we should include it, WHEN the times comes.). If you would like to go make the member pages, PLEASE do so. But since no has taken that initiative, we will keep a member section of LOONA in the article with justified info and facts. Thanks! Db Rider (talk) 09:42, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

None of the members passes neither WP:NMUSIC neither general WP:GNG, so we cant make an articles for them yet. Snowflake91 (talk) 09:49, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Even MORE the reason to keep their birthdates and full names in the member section. :^) Db Rider (talk) 10:25, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Ugh, no animals and colors. They aren't the Spice Girls where the nickname is essential to their stage name. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 23:39, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

References

[1]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBbeuXW8Nko
[2]
"강렬 레드 기대해"…이달의소녀 김립, 솔로 앨범 발매" (in Korean). 엑스포츠뉴스.
[3]
""과즙美 팡팡"…이달의 소녀 최리의 착한 미모" (in Korean). MK News.
[4]
"이달의 소녀⅓, 200자 미니 프로필(인터뷰②)" (in Korean). Ten Asia.
[5]
""Who's Next Girl?" 이달의 소녀, 제 8의 멤버 실루엣 공개" (in Korean). Ten Asia.
[6]
"Loona's official Cafe Daum" (in Korean).
[7]
"[MV] 이달의 소녀/희진 (LOONA/HeeJin) "ViViD"". YouTube.
[8]
"[MV] 이달의 소녀/현진 (LOONA/HyunJin) "다녀가요 (Around You)"". YouTube.
[9]
"[MV] 이달의 소녀/하슬 (LOONA/HaSeul) "소년, 소녀 (Let Me In)"". YouTube.
[10]
"[MV] 이달의 소녀/여진 (LOONA/YeoJin) "키스는 다음에 (Kiss Later)"". YouTube.
[11]
"[MV] 이달의 소녀/진솔 (LOONA/JinSoul) "Singing in the Rain"". YouTube.
[12]
"[MV] 이달의 소녀/ViVi (LOONA/비비) "Everyday I Need You (Feat. JinSoul)"". YouTube.

HaSeul

Notable info

Charts

Photo

External links modified

Problem with the article for Chuu's single?

Listing LOOΠΔ ViRryVes

As "LOOΠΔ ViRryVes" keeps being added into the article, I created this section to discuss on whether it should be listed. In my opinion, unofficial subunits should not even be added as they are non-notable as compared to the official ones and I feel that Loona ViRryVes is the former. According to Metro, it states that there will only be 3 subunits, which I believe they are referring to these three: Loona 1/3, Loona Odd Eye Circle and Loona yyxy. Also on Billboard, it states that Loona yyxy is the third and last subunit of the group. What is your opinion on this? Heolkpop (talk) 11:08, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

Keep look no further than the description of the carol 2.0 video. it says and i quote "'The Carol 2.0' is performed by ViVi from LOOΠΔ 1/3, Choerry from LOOΠΔ / ODD EYE CIRCLE, and Yves who escaped from Eden, to create a transverse unit named 'ViRryVes' in order to welcome the holiday season along with the fans of LOOΠΔ." The unit is named and comes from a 1st party source, their official youtube channel. The video description to every loona song is an important part of their lore. No other unit has been named or promoted in this way so I understand why the confusion but it is official. RatiziAngelou^contribs 21:20, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

@Ratizi: You should also note that that is a primary source, and primary sources should be avoided. Even so, the video is titled as "LOONA/ViVi, Choerry, Yves" – by their names rather the name of their unit (LOONA ViRryVes), comparing to other subunits' music videos. Furthermore, only Youtube (only one source) says that way. If you read LOONA yyxy's music video's description, it states "LOOΠΔ 1/3 sang the excitement and expectations of the first love through ‘Love&Live’. LOOΠΔ/ODD EYE CIRCLE sang that love is not about waiting, but about stepping forward and taking action through ‘Mix&Match’. Finally, LOOΠΔ/yyxy sings about the love of youth so shiny to seem luminous, through ‘beauty&thebeat’", without mentioning LOONA ViRryVes. I can also understand the confusion but it is not an official unit. Heolkpop (talk) 13:05, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

Members' order

I think members should be listed in order of age for consistency with other k-pop articles.74.12.71.179 (talk) 23:09, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

Not done For the infobox, it should be in the order in which they joined the group per the MOS. Whether you want to create a table for the members to sort by birthdate/age is up to you. It really depends on whether birth date and age is important to note for the members. But according to the previous discussion, it sounds like that would be fancruft. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 23:37, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

Do we want the order they joined the group or they order that they debuted in? Because there is a big difference.74.12.71.179 (talk) 19:06, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

I dont know why are there always so much complications on every group article about order of the members in the infobox, why does this even matter? Just list them and thats all, they can be ordered alphabetically, by the age, by the order of joining, or completely random, there is no note of any kind which would explain to the random reader how are they ordered anyway, so one can only guess. Just checked Twice, GFriend, Girls' Generation (GA article), Blackpink and Red Velvet articles and they are ordered by the age in all those articles, but according to the MOS, if all members joined at the same time, they should be ordered alphabetically so all those articles are using wrong order, but it doesnt really matter does it, or...? Snowflake91 (talk) 20:33, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

I just want consistency across all pages for k-pop groups, and based on the conversation had on Talk:Itzy, it seems like age order is the closest we can get to a consensus.74.12.71.179 (talk) 21:21, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

I wasn't aware of it since I dont have Itzy on my watchlist, apparently I was pinged but did somehow missed it, will check the consensus, thanks for pointing it out. Snowflake91 (talk) 21:34, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Per Template:Infobox musical artist#current_members, the members should be listed by date of joining the group or by alphabetical. However... neither really works for a market like South Korea's, as it' so incredibly structured unlike its western counterparts. A lot of policies and guidelines simply cannot adequately be imposed on these articles (case in point, record label templates like Template:YG Entertainment are allowed to list all their artists, even when guidelines disallow such use of the templates, see discussion one and two). I suggest listing members as they are by their agencies. Group members are always listed in a particular order and it is hierarchical to reflect that of Korean society; it's usually done by age, but that is not strictly followed with all groups. Following the agency's order should work best for these articles. Going around making changes to a mass number of articles without discussion citing other stuff exists isn't helpful, especially when they aren't a result of... anything other than self-interest. ℯ xplicit 06:54, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

I'm making changes because I want things to be consistent. If wanting the world's most used encyclopedia to have consistency is somehow in my self-interest (which it's not, how things are written on Wikipedia has no bearing on my life), then I'll just stop editting. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.12.71.179 (talk) 02:04, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

Lead Single

Requested move 19 January 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. It would have been good to see more analysis on the historical significance of Loona (Punjabi epic) - a 1956 play which received a major literary honour and is still talked about today - in comparison to the Korean group. But the page views are quite overwhelming so with the support !votes as they are there is a consensus to move. — Amakuru (talk) 15:20, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

Loona (group) → Loona
Loona → Loona (disambiguation)

– I understand claiming primary topic out of four pages seems like a lot, so I do ask you please read my whole rationale.

On Loona (group)'s discography page, Vaporgaze attempted to move the page to just "Loona discography", and the consensus was to not move as this page is titled "Loona (group)". However, a case could be made that this page is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, looking at pageviews. Since late November 2018, Loona (group)'s pageviews have dwarfed all of instances of "Loona" combined in terms of pageviews. In that time, the four pages have collectively amassed 470,548 pageviews, with Loona (group) covering 427,376 of those views. You can see that, in pie chart form (click "chart type" > "pie"), Loona (group) is responsible for roughly 91% of all views to pages with "Loona" in the title. Seems like a pretty clear instance of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. See also: Google trends, where the group dwarfs the others in terms of searches, and where the general search term "Loona" lines up almost exactly with searches for the group. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 17:45, 19 January 2020 (UTC)

Hi, I'm the person who suggested that the discog page be moved. Just want to say that I agree that the group seem like a clear primary topic compared to an irrelevant singer who, if her discog page is accurate, hasn't made the Top 40 since 2010, an Indian play that seems unknown internationally and a village that is easily in last place when it comes to both page views and searches... for now. You never know, the group may be less relevant/popular in a few years' time and therefore generate less page views and searches. I'm still voting Support for now, but I just thought I'd point that out.--ⓋᎯ☧ǿᖇǥ@ℤε 📞 18:06, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
Oppose per second criteria, long term encyclopaedic significance. Check in GBooks if in doubt. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:19, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
Support Traffic stats are compelling. It's unrealistic to expect a new pop group to show up on Google books, and none of the other topics seem that significant with few entries on GBooks. -Zanhe (talk) 00:37, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
Support. The Estonian settlement appears to be tiny. feminist (talk) 13:23, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
Support per WP:DETERMINEPRIMARY guidelines. --Mαuri ’96 (talk · cont) 03:39, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Semi-protected edit request on 28 June 2020

How should we do to move from Draft:Chuu (singer) to Chuu (singer)?

I created her Japanese article (I'm a Japanese native speaker).

Additionally, I have edited Draft:Chuu (singer) several times because she appears in a web drama, TV ads (Pocari Sweat, Galaxy Store and Chicken Maru) and YouTube channel ("Chuu Can Do It" and "Hauteur the Day") as an individual and I think that I need to move from her draft article to her main article.

How can we move from her draft article to her main article?

Would anyone improve and expand her draft article to move to her main article because I only can understand Japanese and basic level English? --Hatto0467 (talk) 15:24, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

@Annaoue: Hello, I appreciate your excellent job and thank you for editing Loona-related articles so much! I recently join editing Loona-related articles. I created Chuu's article in Japanese wikipedia as noted above. Would you edit Draft:Chuu (singer) when you have your free time because I strongly hope that her draft article should be moved to mainspace? --Hatto0467 (talk) 13:12, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

Ahh thank you so much. Yes I agree! Chuu is undoubtedly the most popular member of the group so I’ll look for more sources and information to add to the draft. Also thank you so much for your work on Loona pages on both English and Japanese wikipedia :)) Annaoue (talk) 13:36, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

@Annaoue:How does she meet WP:ENT or WP:MUSICBIO independent of Loona? The Loona-related EP/single album does not count towards her solo career as it is part of the Loona project. Neither do guest appearances on talk shows. If you have WP:GNG news references that focus on her solo career, then please list those on her draft page for AFC reviewers to confirm. AngusW🐶🐶F (bark • sniff) 16:46, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

@Annaoue:I'm looking forward to editing Chuu's draft article to move it to mainspace! By the way, there are Japanese references in "[&]" and "PTT (Paint the Town)" articles. Do you understand Japanese? I'm not a good English speaker because I only can understand Japanese. --Hatto0467 (talk) 13:06, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

No mention AT ALL of Jaden Jeong?

More sections and more information about individual members

Chuu

Heejin page?

"Former members"

There is clear consensus to maintain the status quo for the five members (HeeJin, Kim Lip, JinSoul and Choerry) until Blockberry Creative explictly stated that they have left Loona.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I don't know that it's accurate to suggest that HeeJin, Kim Lip, JinSoul, and Choerry are former members at this point. They have won their hearing for an injunction (just as HaSeul, YeoJin, Yves, Go Won, and Olivia Hye have lost theirs), but to my understanding, this is not the end of LOONA's legal process to end their contracts, rather just one part of it, just as HaSeul herself has posted to Fab mentioning and just as we saw with Chuu, who filed her injunction in December 2021 and remained in LOONA until 2022. If the 9 girls are still liable to lose their case and be forced to remain in the company/as part of LOONA, would it not be best to wait and see what their company has to say, at the very least, if not the result of their overall legal case? 31.124.191.19 (talk) 02:28, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

I agree but I got reverted, the source only states that the five Loona members have their contract with the company terminated nothing about their status with Loona. Thus, with the status being unclear they should be considered Loona members till there are evidence otherwise. Lightoil (talk) 02:21, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

Considering the contract was terminated, they are no longer Loona members since they were under contract, and that contract was broken. This is similar to what happened to Nmixx member Jinni, who had her contract terminated, and left the group. I would leave it as that. Btspurplegalaxy 💬 🖊️ 05:20, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

JYP explicitly said that Jinni left Nmixx while BBC have not released any statement thus both situations are not directly comparable. Lightoil (talk) 05:34, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

Agree here. BlockBerry hasn't released a statement saying that they have officially left LOONA, this is simply a contract injunction like the one that Chuu had prior to her removal from the group. @Paper9oll: since you reverted it, could you please help participate in the discussion? The source cited, MT News, doesn't explicitly say that they were fully removed from the group and thus I am not sure if it is best to say this. Purple Lights 23:27, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Same thoughts as Btspurplegalaxy. However, if the consensus is clear then feel free to make the relevant changes. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 00:31, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

I'd agree, but we did see many of the members who'd be considered "former" immediately jump to Fab to speak -- surely if they were out of the company and group and this was the end of the legal line, then they'd not have been able to use Fab to promote their own Instagrams? Like, that's using the LOONA brand to uplift their own, and I really cannot see that flying if they were out of the group and company.

Injunctions are part of the legal process, but that process is still ongoing given what HaSeul has said (and how the law works), it's just that certain members have just been freed from the expectation of an exclusive contract while the process continues and others have not. Given that, I think it'd be best to hold off on calling them former members quite yet, as no one jumped to doing the same with Chuu when she was freed from her exclusive contract.

I'm happy to make some changes, with @Paper9oll's consent above. 31.124.191.19 (talk) 11:36, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Draft for OEC+ redebut under Modhaus as ARTMS

Should we change some of the members to former

The latent conflict about contradictory information: Artms and Loona

Ex Loona Members

All members terminated their contracts

Rewording the intro paragraphs to follow a standard introduction.

Typically, on many of the South Korean girl group pages the introductory paragraph follows typically as:

Group Name (Korean: 그루프 네임; RR: Geurupeu Neim; stylized in all caps) is a South Korean girl group (formed by / formerly under) [label name]. The group is composed of [number] members: [list of member names]. {If the group has a different number of members now from when they debuted}: Originally a [number]-member group, [Member(s)] (left / was removed from the line-up) on [date], due to [reason]. The group debuted (in {if only month is used} / on {if date is given}) [date] with (their single album / the single / the extended play) [album / single name].

[either the preceding paragraph, or a new paragraph should then contain common and important trivia about the group]

[final paragraph should contain important information about the group's current status]

SOURCE: Ive (group), Purple Kiss, Blackpink, Twice, NewJeans, Le Sserafim, and many more...

Hence I propose the following stylistic change to the introductory paragraph:

Loona (stylized in all caps or as LOOΠΔ; Korean: 이달의 소녀; RR: Idarui Sonyeo; Japanese: 今月の少女, romanized: Kongetsu no Shōjo, lit. 'Girl of the Month') is a South Korean girl group formerly under Blockberry Creative. The group is composed of eleven members: Heejin, Hyunjin, Haseul, Vivi, Yeojin, Kim Lip, Jinsoul, Choerry, Yves, Go Won, and Olivia Hye. Originally a twelve-member group, Chuu was removed from the line-up on November 25, 2022, due to a contract dispute.^[1]^[2] Starting in October 2016, as part of a pre-debut project, each member was introduced to the public through a solo promotional single in a periodic fashion over the following 18 months.^[3] The group debuted as a full ensemble on August 19, 2018, with the extended play (EP) [+ +], supported by the lead single "Favorite" and the title track "Hi High".

On November 28, 2022, it was reported by JTBC that all of the remaining members, excluding Hyunjin and Vivi, had filed for provisional injunctions to suspend their contracts with the label.^[4] On January 13, 2023, HeeJin, Kim Lip, JinSoul, and Choerry were granted a preliminary injunction, and they subsequently signed with Modhaus on March 17.^[5] On February 17, 2023, it was reported that Hyunjin and Vivi would be filing provisional injunctions to terminate their contract with Blockberry Creative. On May 9, it was reported HyunJin and ViVi were granted preliminary injunctions,^[6] both members signed with CTD E&M two days later.^[7] On June 16, it was announced that the remaining members had won the lawsuit against the label, terminating their contracts with the label.^[8]

I believe these changes would bring the introductory paragraph in line with other articles of a similar matter. Thetukars (talk) 01:02, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

@Thetukars You can WP:BOLD this proposal. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 14:31, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

I made the changes, added back in the references, I have no idea why it suddenly increases the bytes by 3000? Thetukars (talk) 15:53, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

@Thetukars You added duplicate references which already exists in the article hence that increase of 3000+ bytes. Instead of copy-pasting the references from your proposal above, you should instead take the named references from previous revision prior to your proposal revision. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 16:37, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

References

[1]
Jin, Hyang-hee (November 25, 2022). "츄, 이달의 소녀 제명→퇴출..."스태프 갑질 의혹 소명"" [Chuu, LOONA → Expelled..."Suspicion of staff abuse"] (in Korean). Maeil Economic Daily. Archived from the original on November 25, 2022. Retrieved November 25, 2022 – via Naver.
[2]
Staff, ABS-CBN News (November 26, 2022). "K-pop: Chuu removed from Loona". Archived from the original on November 26, 2022. Retrieved November 26, 2022 – via ABS-CBN News.
[3]
Park, Ji-hye (November 13, 2016). "'이달의 소녀' 앞으로 기대되는 이유" (in Korean). Oh My Star. Archived from the original on December 21, 2016. Retrieved December 20, 2016.
[4]
Park, Sang-hoo (November 28, 2022). "[단독]이달의 소녀 비비·현진 제외 9명 계약 해지 소송 중" [[Exclusive] 9 contract cancellation proceedings excluding LOONA Vivi and Hyunjin] (in Korean). JCTB. Archived from the original on November 28, 2022. Retrieved November 28, 2022 – via Naver.
[5]
Kim, Na-yul (March 17, 2023). "'前 이달의 소녀' 최리X진솔X희진X김립, 모드하우스와 전속계약[공식]". Naver. Archived from the original on March 17, 2023. Retrieved March 17, 2023.
[6]
"[단독] 이달소 비비 현진도 블록베리 떠난다…법정 싸움서 '승소'". Naver. May 9, 2023. Retrieved May 10, 2023.
[7]
"[단독]이달소 비비·현진, 새 소속사 씨티디이엔엠과 전속계약". Naver. June 11, 2023. Retrieved June 11, 2023.
[8]
"이달의 소녀, 전원 블록베리 떠난다...12명 모두 계약해지 승소". entertain.naver.com (in Korean). Retrieved June 16, 2023.

Contract termination.

Resolved

– consensus below determines that leaving label/contract termination is not the same as the group disbanding OR the same as members leaving the group

Since all members have terminated their contracts with blockberry, they are no longer members of Loona, and should be listed as such.

After all, Chuu has been moved to Former since she is no longer under contract with blockberry, and the status of the members should also be updated to reflect they are no longer members of the group.

Secondly, @Paper9oll, I believe you were wrong to revert my edits to the main paragraph. My updated version followed the standard structure for disbanded KPop groups, for example, IZ*One.

Is it contentious whether or not they are disbanded? None of them have contracts under Blockberry anymore, they're not members of Loona. Many of the members are already in different companies. Thetukars (talk) 12:49, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

@Thetukars As per existing WP:CONSENSUS, departing from label (any label) is not equals to disband and/or departing from the group. Also do you have reliable sources that explictly stated that, if so it's your WP:ONUS to provide such per WP:BURDEN. @Lightoil @Btspurplegalaxy @Purplelights who previously participated in the previous consensus discussion, what's your thoughts on the above and on the recent events, should the consensus be overturn or be updated or have its status quo remains? — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 12:59, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

The main paragraph looks better now.

After some consideration, I have to agree that departing from a label is not the same as departing from the group. While none of them are under Blockberry Creative anymore, I can see that does not necessarily imply they are no longer part of LOONA, except for Chuu, who was removed from the group.

However, since LOONA was owned (AFAIK) by Blockberry, who makes the decisions of who is part of LOONA and who is not? If none of them have contracts with Blockberry, but Blockberry owns the rights to LOONA, then simultaneously, how can the members also be a part of LOONA? For example, if they wanted to promote as the original twelve with Chuu, then surely they would need to get approval from Blockberry (which wouldn't happen), or another company would have to buy rights to the LOONA name? If none of them have contracts tied to either Blockberry or LOONA, then how would they remain members of the group? Wouldn't departing from a label but remaining in a group require a different process? Thetukars (talk) 14:48, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

@Thetukars If you want an example to your scenario, BB Girls (previously Brave Girls) is an recent example with the same concern raised by your scenario pertaining to naming rights which is similar here, even though I would assumed that Blockberry Creative like every other label would have copyrighted the group name, regardless the scenario you mentioned is not for us (Wikipedia editors) to worry about, those are fans concerns which isn't our problem here. We only write what was reported explictly by reliable sources. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 15:13, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Okay, thank you for the example, I see your point, and I have to agree with you. My apologies. Thetukars (talk) 16:27, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

This isn't your typical situation of members departing a company because of their contracts expiring, so I don't think it ought to be viewed as them simply disbanding. They've all just gotten their contracts terminated, so I think it's best to see what they may have planned with regard to the group. Btspurplegalaxy 💬 🖊️ 19:46, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

I think it is best we wait till it is officially announced that Loona has disbanded before labeling them as disbanded. Lightoil (talk) 08:48, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

on Modhaus' website it states that HeeJin, Kim Lip, Choerry & JinSoul are FORMER Loona members

https://www.mod-haus.com/ PoxKelly (talk) 15:31, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

I see Modhaus has recently just signed a fifth member, so if they're successful in securing contracts for the remaining members, I propose we change the name to Artms. I know Modhaus has stated that "Artms" isn't a new name, but at the same, all the legal rights belong to Blockberry. Btspurplegalaxy 💬 🖊️ 20:07, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

It would be better to start a new article or a redirect in that case, we see that hyunjin and vivi have signed with ctd enm and chuu is with atrp, I don't think that the members are all going to be part of the artms project, however they may in the future participate in activities as twelve members (it's unknown, but entirely possible), so loona will remain loona and the artms project will remain as that Thetukars (talk) 19:01, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

The group isn't disbanded but Modhaus called HeeJin, Kim Lip, JinSoul and Choerry and HaSeul 전 멤버 ("former members") in their statements (1, 2), while CTDENM used 출신 ("former members" again) for HyunJin, ViVi, YeoJin, Go Won and Olivia Hye (1, 2), so it seems that Yves is the only remaining member now. --Chiya^ko92 13:37, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

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