Talk:Madoc

Dunno why I'm editing something that needs merging, but the link in "Several local guest houses and pubs are called Prince Madoc in his memory. However, according to http://www.birch.net/~gbyron/kin/wales/page6.html " is dead. The "Porthmadog named after Madocks, not Madoc" thing is fairly well-established, but if you want a source, http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/historyhunters/locations/pages/4_2_the_cob.shtml will do. That paragraph is still a little confusing, though. Are the local pubs local to Wales, to Porthmadog, or to North America? I presume not the last, but haven't changed the wording there because I am not sure, although I altered quite a lot of the rest of the paragraph. -- Telsa 08:44, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Both merge notices on the Madog ap Owain Gwynedd and this page say the other is going to end as the ultimate home of the information. Which is it?

The section titled "Welsh Indians" as potential descendants has an odd reuse of some sentences.

From the first paragraph:

As immigrants came into contact with more groups of Native Americans in the United States, at least thirteen real tribes, five unidentified tribes, and three unnamed tribes have been suggested as "Welsh Indians". Eventually, the legend settled on identifying the Welsh Indians with the Mandan people, who were said to differ from their neighbours in culture, language, and appearance.

From the seventh paragraph:

At least thirteen real tribes, five unidentified tribes, and three unnamed tribes have been suggested as "Welsh Indians". The legend eventually settled on identifying the Welsh Indians with the Mandan people, who were said to differ from their neighbours in culture, language, and appearance

The only difference I've found in the statement itself is minor changes in word order.

Following this statement in the first paragraph is a brief summary that historians dispute the claims. Following the statement in the seventh paragraph, the section becomes a larger discussion of disagreements between the painter George Catlin and his contemporaries in other fields, followed by discussing the genetic cause for features reported by American colonists.

I am a newer wikipedian. Would it make sense to remove the duplicate wording from paragraph seven and consider turning the rest of the paragraph into its own section? Dio9sys (talk) 18:57, 16 January 2026 (UTC)

Thanks for this useful suggestion. At this edit I have removed the duplication, though I have not split the section. Richard Keatinge (talk) 19:58, 16 January 2026 (UTC)

Summarize Timeline Fact Check

It has been proposed in this section that Madoc be renamed and moved to Madog ab Owain GwyneddMadog ab Owain Gwynedd. A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil. Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly. Links: current log • target log • direct move

Madoc → Madog ab Owain GwyneddMadog ab Owain Gwynedd – Madog is the modern spelling of his name, furthermore he is mentioned in Cynddelw's elegy to the members of his father's retinue. He is called "Madog ab Owain Gwynedd" in the modern edition of the poem, which would be the only contemporaneous record of his existence Tipcake (talk) 11:19, 21 April 2026 (UTC) This is a contested technical request (permalink). 162 etc. (talk) 17:26, 21 April 2026 (UTC) — Relisting. {{GearsDatapacks|talk|contribs}} 17:26, 28 April 2026 (UTC)

• Comment, Ngrams still shows "Madoc" is more used, unless it is argued "Madoc" or "Madog" aren't solely refering to this subject. Most sources here use "Madoc" even if not matching his actual record of his name, we should still use "Madoc" as the WP:COMMONNAME. But neutral if it is argued "Madoc" and "Madog" are not primarily about this subject if that's the reason for the full name being used, as the full "Madog" name is used more than the full "Madoc" name on Ngrams. DankJae 09:29, 2 May 2026 (UTC)

  There are other people with the names "Madog" and "Madoc", so comparing usage of those with "Madog ab Owain Gwynedd" wouldn't be an accurate representation. I get the impression that the prince is most often referred to mononymously, although I haven't found conclusive proof of this in my bookshelves; he's Madog ab Owain Gwynedd in the indices of John Davies's History of Wales and Jan Morris's Wales, Madoc in the index of Gwyn A. Williams's When Was Wales? and Prince Madoc in that of Lloyd Bowen's Early Modern Wales (but just Madoc in Bowen's text). I think he's less significant as a historical personage than as the subject of a later legend, initially a Welsh one but also adopted by the English for a time thanks to John Dee's efforts, as is covered in the section Madoc § Elizabethan and Stuart claims to the New World – so an English form of the name ("Madoc") could still be appropriate if it were found to be the WP:COMMONNAME in English-language sources. Ham II (talk) 10:51, 2 May 2026 (UTC)