Talk:Manchester/Archive 11

The lead section claims:

"....and second most populous metropolitan area, with a population of 3.3 million.^[1]

Does that source work for anyone else? I just get a constant "Loading...The navigation tree is loading..." message. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:23, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

It works fine for me, but I would suggest that we don't lead either of the Birmingham or Manchester articles with the metropolitan region stats from Eurostat. The Manchester metropolitan region in the source stretches from Greater Manchester, over all of Derbyshire and wraps around Derby and Nottingham itself. Hardly a real world reflection of any meaningful population, so I'd suggest leading with the stats from this source has the potential to mislead. Would assume this is the intention of some of the editors here. I'd prefer to keep the stats in the infobox - city and urban area populations are much more useful as an introduction and mean more. Sammich28 (talk) 10:32, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

In the 'Demography' section the pie chart captioned 'Racial structure, according to the 2011 census' shows Chinese, Arabs and Asians separately. However, Chinese are Asians, and so are many Arabs (from the Middle East, which is a part of Asia). Can someone explain what 'Asians' the chart is referring to, and shouldn't that be specified in the legend? JACKINTHEBOX • ^TALK 06:49, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

That is the options presented on the ONS Census. White/British, Traveller/Gypsy, Black/Black British, Mixed, Other, then Asian/Asian British is broken down into sub categories: Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Chinese, Other. The Scottish census also breaks down Black into Black African or Black Caribbean sub categories. --WatcherZero (talk) 18:10, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

Then shouldn't 'Chinese' be shown together with 'Asians' in the pie chart (in the same sector)? JACKINTHEBOX • ^TALK

What kind of 'Asian' is the census/chart referring to then? JACKINTHEBOX • ^TALK 06:25, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:43, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

The city's GDP is stated as US$ 113.3 billion, having been taken from data from the Brookings institute. Other UK cities' figures are stated in GBP. Are there not GBP figures that can be used for better and more relevant comparison for entities within the UK? -- Ohc ^{revolution of our times} 16:30, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

ONS Regional Gross domestic product (Table five in the excel file linked to by the page) has GDP for the city of Manchester and for the rest of the county. https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/datasets/regionalgrossdomesticproductallnutslevelregions WatcherZero (talk) 17:48, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Μάνχεστρο: shitty Manchester, when we support a non-Mancunian team versus a Mancunian — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2a02:587:410a:f300:d88f:f089:47f1:5c81 (talk • contribs) 02:36, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

This edit request to Manchester has been answered. Set the |answered= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Manchester is the fourth most populus city, fifth most populus district, the body implies that it is the fifth largest city by population, there is a link to the districts on this text (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_districts_by_population) I guess the writer assumed that Cornwall was a city, Cornwall is not a city, it is actually a county, cornwall is however a district, the text is quite ambiguous.

"The city has the country's fifth-largest population"

needs to be changed to

"The city has the country's fourth-largest population"

or

"The district has the country's fifth-largest population"

Lumame (talk) 00:12, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:39, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: It doesn't say it's the fifth largest city; it says it has the fifth largest population which seems to be right per the list of districts by population. hemantha (brief) 13:40, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

There seems to be now a minor edit war over the lead section. The source provided for this latest revert is this one. While I’m sure David George, the Associate Director, Falconer Chester Hall, is perfectly entitled to his opinion and that he writes very clearly, I’m not sure that’s an appropriate source, published by "Insider Media”, to support the claim that Manchester "is frequently referred to as the United Kingdom's second city." It’s not even clear to me if George is referring to Manchester or to Greater Manchester Built-up Area. From where does he get his figure of 2,553,379? The info box currently gives a population of “547,627” with a rank of 5th. Also, I'd suggest that claims should not be added to the lead section that do not appear in the main body (which is where any sources should also appear). Unfortunately the repeated IP edits have made the article inconsistent and self-contradictory. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:56, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

The latest IP revert here (the series now totalling six) has the edit summary: "Same advice to you. If you want to change this long established opening take it to discussion first and gain consesus rather than unilaterally changing it." But I don't see any evidence for it being a "long established opening" at all. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:35, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

And yet again another IP revert with no explanation or discussion. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:59, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

Looking at the page history, it seems that the wording about being the UK's sixth largest city was added in May, prior to which the wording "lies within the United Kingdom's second largest urban area" had been relatively stable since at least 2013 with a similar wording being used in the 2007 version of the page that was promoted to Featured Article. I would advocate returning to the old consensus wording there, and dropping the "sixth largest city" part; if that is to be kept then there needs to be greater clarity that it is the metropolitan borough alone that ranks sixth, not the wider conurbation. The part about being second city seems unnecessary for the lead; it's covered sufficiently in the history section, and there's plenty of competition for the title. Lowercaserho (talk) 13:38, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

I agree, that seems quite fair. But also: 1. Do you regard this as a good source? 2. In that source is George referring to Manchester or to Greater Manchester Built-up Area? 3. Shouldn't the lead section simply reflect what is described in the article main body? There seems to have been a slow edit war being played out here, by a series of IP editors with different geolocations, who seem to have a problem with the relative importance of Manchester and Birmingham, centred on a feud as to which of those two deserves to called “UK’s second city”. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:44, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

Manchester says this: “It lies within the United Kingdom's second-most populous built-up area, with a population of 3.2 million”.

Birmingham says this: “The wider Birmingham metropolitan area is the second largest in the United Kingdom with a population of over 4.3 million.”.

These can't both be right, can they? Martinevans123 (talk) 14:18, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

My understanding (I am by no means an expert) is that it depends on what exactly is being measured, with Manchester claiming built-up area and Birmingham claiming metropolitan area. We have pages for List of urban areas in the United Kingdom and ESPON metropolitan areas in the United Kingdom, which seem to back up both claims of being second. The actual population numbers are off, though; it would be good if someone who has the time and inclination could dive into the actual sources and try to verify the numbers. We also might have a problem of cherrypicking if both articles are choosing to emphasise the figure that makes them seem bigger and more important, though I'm honestly not nearly knowledgable enough to say which of the two metrics we might wish to standardise on. (There is also the possibility of ranking only the areas that have been granted city status, but that seems like a particularly poor metric to me.) Lowercaserho (talk) 15:23, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

Yes, it would be good. I certainly don't want to risk making any more edits that are "disgraceful and shameful to the people of Manchester" or to risk "being exposed" as a result. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:33, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

Martin, I thoroughly appreciate your efforts in helping Wikipedia become more accurate and reliable, but you repeatedly make claim to yourself not being an expert in population statistics and geographical data for Manchester. I am, however and have thus worded the initial section accordingly. Apologies for being blunt, but I would appreciate if you could actually wait for consensus on my edit, before reverting back to yours. Lastly, in the Birmingham article, in first sentence, the phrase "major city" is used but in Manchester's only "city" is used. This is surely not right? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Swissair123 (talk • contribs) 19:10, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

"Swiss", where did I repeatedly claim that, exactly? And which revert was that? But thanks for newly registering as an editor just to tell me. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:12, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

Martin, where you make reference to the citation used for the sentence describing Manchester as the UK's second city, a fully accredited journal article or report is not needed as the second city issue is by no means a formal matter in British society. Rather an unofficial and informal title. Thus a blog post or news article should be sufficient. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Swissair123 (talk • contribs) 19:18, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

I've made no repeated claims (not that I'd want to). You just reverted someone else's edit. I think that's possibly one of the worst sources used in the lead section of any article on a UK city (and it shouldn't even be in the lead). Just my personal view, of course. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:28, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

Well Martin, I respect your opinion, so I can look to find another credible source for that information, of which there is plenty. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.129.139.171 (talk) 19:36, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

Is see that Birmingham has no fewer that four sources, together with an explanatory footnote. Perhaps the citations do need to appear in the lead, as per WP:LEADCITE, as they are contentious claims? I still think Lowercaserho's idea is better, to get rid altogether. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:05, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

I think that the information is worth retaining within the main body of the articles but not in the leads. The Manchester article has a (decently sourced) paragraph at the very end of its history section, which I think is sufficient. I would support adding a similar paragraph to Birmingham's article, and removing anything about being "second city" from the lead of both articles.

I don't believe that any facts are in serious dispute here, only the presentation of said facts. I think it's fairly uncontroversial to say that there is no formal title or criteria for second city, that many people consider and refer to Manchester that way but many others consider and refer to Birmingham that way. Our job is to present this information in a way that gives due weight and prominence. My position is that, as a completely informal epithet, the whole thing about being (or not being) second city is not sufficiently important to either article to warrant a position in the lead, and should be relegated to a brief paragraph within the article. Lowercaserho (talk) 23:20, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

Swissair123: As a subject matter expert, you may wish to check out the advice given at Wikipedia:Expert editors and Help:Wikipedia editing for research scientists. I will not try to summarise them, since they do a better job of explaining our policies than I would do. It would also help if you could look at Help:Talk pages, which describes how you can indent threads with : and sign your comments with ~~~~. Lowercaserho (talk) 23:00, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

As I am fairly new to Wikipedia, of course I may not be completely familiar with specific editing formalities. I too agree that the second city information should be absent from the lead paragraph, although Birmingham's lead paragraph is certainly much more scrupulous in it's exaggeration of Birmingham population statistics. It sounds as if the person who wrote it had the impression that people think of Birmingham as just a small village in the Midlands. Swissair123 (talk) 09:08, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

Swissair123, if you are contemplating making any major changes to the Birmingham article, it would probably be best to make your suggestions at Talk:Birmingham and get consensus there first. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:38, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

Martinevans123, One credible source should be enough to justify using that phrase second city in the lead paragraph. I do believe a small section within the article should be devoted to this topic. I feel it is in the public interest to comment on Manchester's second city status within the lead paragraph and I call on you to liaise with other editors to reach consensus, otherwise you could be accused of editor bias. 82.4.135.232 (talk) 10:54, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

There seems to be still an ongoing "battle" between Manchester and Birmingham as to which is the UK's "second city". The relative size of a city versus a metropolitan borough is not clear to me. I'm also not sure your proposed sources are strong enough. I also think we'd need to agree on material to add to the main body before changing the lead section. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:01, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

The duplicate sources you have re-added seem to be about Glasgow? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:40, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

This source should do the trick : https://books.google.co.uk/books?hl=en&lr=&id=T1vwhZQZnd0C&oi=fnd&pg=PR8&dq=manchester+second+city&ots=tGz-64hVV4&sig=TlVGWQO4oyKITAgkkotxSQy13ig&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=manchester%20second%20city&f=falsehttps://books.google.co.uk/books?hl=en&lr=&id=T1vwhZQZnd0C&oi=fnd&pg=PR8&dq=manchester+second+city&ots=tGz-64hVV4&sig=TlVGWQO4oyKITAgkkotxSQy13ig&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=manchester%20second%20city&f=false 82.4.135.232 (talk) 10:46, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

Better sources are very welcome, thanks; except that source above seems to be just a Google search result from a 2002 book. I have removed this claim "As a global centre of commerce, tourism and the arts, Manchester is now considered to be the United Kingdom's second city", from the lead section, as it does seem to accurately summarise the article content. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:59, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

Yes, that source does so happen to be from a book. Martin, can you please explain why the Birmingham article is using 2001 population statistics to describe a city in the year 2020? I mean surely that's a joke right? In 2001 Birmingham was bigger than Manchester on every population indicator but not anymore. Manchester overtook Birmingham around 5 years ago by metropolitan population. 128.243.2.60 (talk) 14:24, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

Which part of that book is relevant? Your link above does not make that clear. I think it's probably best to discuss the content and sources for the Birmingham article over at Talk:Birmingham. I wonder could you explain to me how a metropolitan area can be described as a "second city"? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:30, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

Martinevans123. To answer your question as simply as possibly, let's think about Edgware (on the Northern line). You and me both know that it is in Barnet of which is part of the Greater London metropolitan urban area and not specifically the City of London (which by the way is smaller than Leeds). So if we were to think of cities the way you do (rather archaically) we wouldn't be taking into account several attributions of urban development in a temporal context including : sprawl and differential land usage. As cities are evolving and growing at higher rates than ever before, most geographers and statisticians tend to use the wider metropolitan area statistics over the central business district, to take into account contemporary urban development. Now having said that, if we use the 2011 census statistics for Manchester, we can clearly see that Greater Manchester as a administrative place, has a larger population than that of the West Midlands Urban area including Birmingham. In addition the Gross Value Added (GVA) of Manchester to the wider UK economy is much higher than that of Birmingham. It is not that I don't like Birmingham, I like most people have just come to accept the facts. Indeed we are no longer in the year 2001 but the year 2020 and thus I call on you as editor to reconsider your discourse positionality on this matter and eliminate any preexisting bias you may have had towards Birmingham. 82.4.135.232 (talk) 18:35, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

We shouldn't be making these judgements in the first place. Wikipedia relies on secondary sources rather than original research, so a claim that Manchester is the second city needs to be based on reliable, published sources that establish that. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:44, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

Why on earth do you suppose that I "think of cities.. rather archaically"? The articles opens with this: "Manchester ... is a major city and metropolitan borough in Greater Manchester...." I'm thinking about "city" like this. So maybe that should be linked to the word city (just as it is at Birmingham)? I have no "preexisting bias towards Birmingham". I have no "preexisting bias towards Manchester" either. By all means go ahead an update the census data. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:26, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

By the way, I looked at the book that was provided above as a possible source. I presume the IP is referring to page 108, but all that establishes is that in 1993, KPMG thought that Manchester had the opportunity to become the UK's second city by 2001. Cordless Larry (talk) 19:56, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

Well done for finding that. Hardly the most convincing evidence that "Manchester is now the UK's second city"? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:01, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

By contrast, here is a source that makes a case for Manchester being the second city, but it also notes the problems with using populations based on wider metropolitan areas. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:05, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

Indeed. I'm not sure if Jonn Elledge in New Statesman counts as "academic scholarship", but I could not have found a better source to inform this current debate. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:19, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

I mean there's two sides to most arguments, including the topic of using population statistics from metropolitan urban areas. As the UK categorises most census data as part of the wider city and not just the immediate central city zone, it is more useful, analytically speaking to utilise the data from wider urban areas. You can't do much with data from 16,000 people like the City of London, but when you start talking millions from the suburbs, then there is a lot of data to be analysed there. 82.4.135.232 (talk) 20:17, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

All the "second city" content that has been repeatedly added to the lead section in spite of the fact that the term is only mentioned once in the main body of the article. Let's discuss etc. Shearonink (talk) 19:06, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

I've adjusted the lead section re: the term "second city". Do with it what you will, but in my editing here on the article I have relied on the WP:MOS guideline of MOS:LEAD - I think it is very clear on what should be in the lead section. Shearonink (talk) 22:15, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

I've noticed these past few months that certain editors are taking certain town and city (Salford) articles and changing them to say suburbs of Manchester (in case of Salford today). But what I'm puzzled about it. What is roughly Manchester's border with other towns and areas? (IE Failsworth, Stockport, Prestwich etc...) And unless stated. Should the leads be left alone to clarify the towns and Salford for where they belong to? Using suburbs of Manchester implies that area is in Manchester itself and not the Unitary authority borough its locals obviously vote to that authorities council?... DragonofBatley (talk) 22:03, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

Issues include unsourced content and updates needed. For example, the number of students is given for the 2011/2012 academic year. (t · c) buidhe 22:49, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Have made some inroads with the Education section with the latest reliable data (i.e. 2018/19 for GCSEs due to pandemic). References could still be improved in this section, however. SamWilson989 (talk) 00:06, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

Metrolink123, as you already know, you need to establish consensus here before adding the claim that Manchester is considered the UK's second city. Such a claim would also need much better sourcing than this. Cordless Larry (talk) 05:53, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

As there's been no response, I was going to revert the edit, but thanks to Stevo1000 for removing the second city claim before I could do so. Cordless Larry (talk) 07:24, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Yes sorry I did not see this. The second city "thing" seems frivolous and not an official title but very much one of conjecture. It feels out of place in the introduction of a article with FA status. Stevo1000 (talk) 19:12, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

FWIW, we have an article on this subject: Second city of the United Kingdom. The claim is made by Glasgow (where I grew up), and several other cities, including Manchester. Whether it is worth mentioning in the article is something that could be discussed here, but if mention is to be made, then I'd recommend including some context about the claim. Girth Summit _(blether) 10:57, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

The paragraph in the present article starting "Since around the turn of the 21st century, Manchester has been regarded as one of the candidates for the unofficial title of second city of the United Kingdom alongside Birmingham..." isn't properly supported by the sources, which are mostly examples rather than secondary coverage (e.g. "whether Manchester or Birmingham is Britain's second city is disputed" is just sourced to two articles describing Birmingham as the second city). I propose replacing this with something like this from Second city of the United Kingdom: "Today, Birmingham is typically described as the UK's second city. In recent decades it has also been common for Manchester to be described either as the second city or as a contender for the title". Cordless Larry (talk) 17:10, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

This edit request to Manchester has been answered. Set the |answered= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

In the introduction, can you add that it’s a major city? 70.71.80.27 (talk) 19:16, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Seems a bit pedestrian. And is there any agreed definition of what "major city" means? Martinevans123 (talk) 19:24, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:08, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Can you add that it's a city and a metropolitan borough in Greater Manchester? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.25.249.162 (talk) 20:54, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

I have noticed that over the last two years, Manchester's intro text has gradually been stripped of any reference to its relative size, whereas Birmingham's has had numerous claims inserted relating to its second city status. I do not wish to relitigate the second city debate, but the process seems to have gone too far against Manchester.

Manchester's article no longer states what rank it holds in terms of metropolitan population - unlike the articles for Birmingham, Liverpool and Leeds. I do not see why Manchester alone should have its metropolitan size obfuscated.

Manchester's article now mentions its metropolitan area being based on 'the two cities' (including Salford) - unlike the article for Birmingham which makes no reference to the cities of Wolverhampton or Coventry, which similarly count toward's Birmingham's metropolitan population. I do not see why Manchester's intro text alone should make explicit reference to other cities when Birmingham's does not do so.

Manchester's article no longer mentions that it is the second most visited city outside London - unlike the articles for Birmingham and Liverpool.

Any neutral observer can see that, over the last two years or so, there has been a concerted effort by editors based in or (sympathetic to) Birmingham to buff up that city's credentials. That is quite understandable. But at the same time it appears that Manchester's article has gradually and quietly been denuded of statements which favour Manchester and key information has been removed, obfuscating the city's significance versus others in Britain. The intro has been denuded to the degree that Manchester's article is now missing information that is included as standard in the articles for other major British cities.

Due to edit protections I am unable to make changes but I would ask editors please to consider amending Manchester's article to bring the information provided into line with that found in other British cities. 202.189.169.219 (talk) 11:27, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

I see there is a discussion about the photos above, so i suppose that this is perhaps in the process of being made right, but currently the caption states that they are Clockwise from top: Manchester Skyline, Manchester Town Hall, Hulme Arch Bridge, Manchester Cathedral, Deansgate skyline, Midland Hotel, John Rylands Library and Manchester University skyline; trouble is, they are nothing like clockwise ~ there's the top one, then each line goes left to right, whereas clockwise would start at the top, go down the right-hand column, then up the left. Can this be corrected before any conclusion is drawn about which pictures are used? Happy days, ~ Lindsay^Hello 22:55, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Y done. Thanks for pointing that out. I have left them as clockwise from top for now rather than top left to bottom right, but no strong feelings at the moment given that the images may be replaced soon. 10mmsocket (talk) 12:40, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. I know i could have done it myself ~ SOFIXIT ~ and was coming to the conclusion that i should, but initially didn't want to stick mine oar in where it might conflict with the ongoing conversation. Happy days, ~ Lindsay^Hello 13:32, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Yeah - interfering busybodies with their constructive helpful suggestions. Be gone! 10mmsocket (talk) 16:27, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Is there any editors who wish to contribute to a discussion on the infobox photos present vs the recent revert of @Stevo1000:, I see no issues with the photos used. The photos readded were from a previous collage of photos but most of them do not represent Manchester as a whole compared to the ones in the current infobox. I found the users edit summary quite incentive and falling under two wikipedia guideline violations and the issue around 2006 images and so is far from inappropriate. Some towns and village articles for instance use older photos from the early 2000s or if WikiCommons has recent photos added of the settlement. Then people can add them but not many do and the same with cities. Some of the best photos are older ones whereas newer ones can be great or not as good, years do not matter unless something has changed the landscape like a power station has been demolished or a coal mine has gone. But those themselves do not fully change the settlement as a whole and I welcome editors like @PamD:, @Eopsid:, @10mmsocket:, @Crouch, Swale:, @John Maynard Friedman: and any others to discuss this. I think the editor made a slight rude edit summary but also this about the wider infobox photos and what you all think should be included. I still think using the town hall, cathedral, hulme arch and some skylines are essential as well as maybe the library and Deansgate? What do you all think? DragonofBatley (talk) 22:56, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

I don't know enough about Manchester to comment on the detail but a similar discussion at talk:Milton Keynes#New infobox collage may be useful as it is often easier to see the essence of a question when you don't have any connection with it.

• Yes, the infobox images should be refreshed periodically but expecially when the city changes significantly.
• Yes, the images should try to represent the city as a whole and not just its central business district.

My 2¢ worth. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 23:09, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

I like what's there mostly. If I were given free reign I'd include Piccadilly Gardens (but I'm struggling to find an example), the Central Library instead of John Rylands (or better still a two-for one of St Peter's Square with the library and Midland hotel together - see below), and a view along Canal Street (see below). I like the Deansgate image, but I'm struggling to find a free one that includes the full length of the street looking south with tall buildings like the Hilton Hotel at the other end. Not keen on the Cathedral photo - there are better ones (see below).

• 
  Central Library and Midland Hotel in St Peter's Square
• 
  Canal Street
• 
  Better view of the Cathedral

A couple of pic suggestions above. 10mmsocket (talk) 07:26, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Which reminds me to add a third cent to my 2¢ worth:

• Proposals for new infobox images should be debated thoroughly on the article talk page and a broad consensus should determine what goes forward, recognising that most participants won't get everything they want. It may be easier to agree broad categories (e.g., x religious sites, y civic sites, z sporting sites, α historic architecture, β modern architecture, γ whatever.) And keep in mind Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK geography/How to write about settlements#How much space to devote to the infobox image?

My 3¢ worth. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 10:01, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

To my mind there's nothing inherently wrong with using relatively old photographs in articles, so long as the subject of the photograph hasn't changed substanially in appearance since it was taken, and I think @Stevo1000: has a valid point here.The top photograph of the montage dates from 2007 according to its commons page, and it's fair to say that the skyline of Manchester has changed quite a bit since 2007. G-13114 (talk) 13:03, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

@G-13114:, I am not sure if there's an up to date skyline photo as I've look over wiki commons and the latest skyline photo I could find under the recency filter was from 2015. But since then new towers have been built and now the tallest tower is Deansgate Square South Tower built in 2018 and Deansgate Square East Tower as well as the Blade in 2023. So the skyline is changing rapidly and quite fast to be really up to date. Plus the 2015 view is littered with cranes and tower building so really wouldn't be a good formal image. I'm not sure how to address the skyline photos unless we use an aerial view but that's only good if you can see what is being shown.

On another point @10mmsocket: I agree the cathedral could be changed photo wise but not a fan of the one in reply as it doesn't show the front of the building and I think an aerial view of the cathedral would work better. I'll mooch around some more photos and drop them into the discussion but like the other two you put DragonofBatley (talk) 13:31, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Some more photo suggestions theres five here of different things in Manchester including the Cathedral, Town Hall, Deansgate, Piccadilly and Skyline/Aerial view:

• 
  Cathedral with tower and western side?
• 
  Manchester town hall and Albert Street
• 
  Deansgate
• 
  Manchester Piccadilly Station approach with footbridge and towers
• 
  Mayfield Park with Manchester's skyscrapers and high rise from above

, not sure if these will all look good but these are recent-ish from past decade and present. DragonofBatley (talk) 13:44, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Cathedral photo great. Town Hall photo also great. Deansgate doesn't convey the shear length of the street for me. I like the Piccadilly bridge photo a lot as I often stay in the Hilton Doubletree Hotel to which the bridge is attached. I really like the Mayfield Park pic (in preference to the other Piccadilly pic) as it shows industrial/urban regeneration - really nice contrast between parts of the city. 10mmsocket (talk) 14:27, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Yeah it does look good as well. I'll allow others to share further photos and we can all reach a consensus on the images and make a coherent infobox collage. DragonofBatley (talk) 14:36, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Deansgate - this is quite nice and Commons-compatible licensed. It's out of date (only the one building on Deansgate Square) but a great view along some of the length of the street. Whereas this shows the tower buildings but not the street. There's some good stuff on flickr - here's a search for Deansgate (If it's not pre-selected then change licence to "Commercial use and mods allowed" 10mmsocket (talk) 14:34, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

if you can add them to this discussion as thumb nails like you and I did above. We can let others see them although I'm not sure how uploading from Flickr to Wikipedia works DragonofBatley (talk) 14:37, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

I'll do them tomorrow morning. Uploading from flickr to commons is 95% automated, all you need do is provide a description and appropriate categories. Commons upload wizard handles all the technical stuff itself. 10mmsocket (talk) 16:55, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Talking of skyline photos. I had a look at the geograph website and searched for Manchester Skyline, and I found a few photo's potentially of interest, which I would be happy to upload to commons. The ones of interest I found were High Rise Living at Deansgate Square and Cranes over the Manchester Skyline. (EDIT: there's also this one Tower Blocks over Knott Mill which I think is superior) G-13114 (talk)

If you wouldn't mind, @G-13114:, that be great. More photos to look through and discuss the better. DragonofBatley (talk) 17:40, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

I've uploaded two of them. I could do the third if neccesary. The skyline one dates from 2018, and is probably quite representative of the Manchester climate. The tower blocks one is stunning. G-13114 (talk) 19:12, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

I like the second one it's nicely composed and the time of year and day look good. I'd deffo use that one. Other one is a bit dull of colour or life in my own opinion but could work to showcase Manchester progress with new skyscrapers DragonofBatley (talk) 20:37, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

With this discussion ongoing, @Chocolateediter: made slight changes to the lead photos and removed other photos. I have reverted him and pointed them to this discussion through edit summaries. What photos so far should we use? DragonofBatley (talk) 15:03, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Here is some of the ones I’d choose, clockwise (template order):

Pic 1 (1,row1), Skyline photos, should be one really:

• Manchester - geograph.org.uk - 4604139.jpg : is 2015 too old for the skyline
• Manchester Skyline From Oxford Road 2020.jpg
• UniversityofManchesterSkyline.jpg

Pic2 (3, r2): a Corn Exchange/ Exchange Square photo should be on the collage, here are some options:

• Exchange Square (geograph 5147082) : 7 year old but shows the tram stop a bit
• Exchange Square (geograph 5147517) : 7 year old, shows some of the Shamble Square, does have a yellow hue to it
• Exchange Square (geograph 7194949) : 10 month old decent

Other:

• pic3 (5,r3), St Peter's Square (geograph 6194481).jpg
• pic4 (7,r4), Midland Hotel west, Manchester.jpg
• pic5 (6,r4), Manchester Cathedral (4).jpg
• pic6 (4,r3) Manchester Town Hall from Lloyd St.jpg
• pic7 (2,r2) Tower Blocks over Knott Mill, geograph 6866152 : looking at the conversation this is lovely Chocolateediter (talk) 18:09, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

This is one that I think should be considered (Disclaimer: I took it) because the yellow trams are an iconic and unique feature of Manchester. G-13114 (talk) 15:35, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Very nice! 10mmsocket (talk) 15:53, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

I agree DragonofBatley (talk) 16:12, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Yesterday I changed the main skyline image on the infobox after seeing it was relatively outdated; I did not realize there was an ongoing discussion about it until now. In my opinion it is an improvement but the picture does not have the highest resolution, so if an editor wants to revert or to use a better photo feel free to do so. LivinAWestLife (talk) 12:33, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

It's better than what was there. It can probably be better but good for now. 10mmsocket (talk) 15:33, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

While I see now the picture has changed, I don't think it was necessary for @DragonofBatley for using such heated language in the edit. The picture I selected was perfectly fine, and is certainly more representative of a larger part of the city than just Deansgate. Also, why did you change the image from the 2020 one in the first place? LivinAWestLife (talk) 16:49, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

I do apologise for the heated sounded language I used but that photo really isn't a good representation. How is a dark, evening gray sky image a good representation of Manchester skyline then a daytime and bright image? In that photo, it looks like it was taken during an apocalyptic esque themed day. But the Deansgate one is during the daytime and is actually quite nice. So maybe others like it and I am not trying to dictate a photo or article but if people want a fair representation of Manchester. A dark grey image really isn't nice. Maybe a geographical image for representing Salford and Manchester proximity although better images are available but for a lead skyline? No it really isn't showing anything clear but a dark sky and loads of skyscrapers with no real notable landmarks or views to see. DragonofBatley (talk) 17:57, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. I still mean to ask about your edit from the original wide 2020 picture, not the one I had edited. I think the current image is fine. LivinAWestLife (talk) 13:59, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

I just reverted the addition of two county flags to the lead infobox here and at Liverpool City Region. I think the UK and England ones should be removed too as they add no value at all. See MOS:INFOBOXFLAG which says such flag icons should be avoided. Thoughts from others? 10mmsocket (talk) 14:39, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

I opened more than a dozen English city articles at random. Only three had infobox flags, and only one of those had the county flag, so it looks like the use of infobox flags is very much in the minority. 10mmsocket (talk) 14:41, 19 May 2023 (UTC)