Talk:Marko Miljanov

Please provide evidence for the following claim:

"Marko Miljanov Popović's mother Borika was an Albanian-speaking ethnic Albanian woman from the Albanian village of Oraovo".

a. Marko's mother Borka (not Borika) was born in the village of Ora(h)ovo — which by the way translates to "place of walnuts" in the Serbian language.

b. The name Borka by the way is a predominantly female Serbian name derived from the word bor, meaning "fight" or "battle," symbolizing a "fighter" or "small warrior". It is also used as a Hungarian variant of the name Barbara (meaning "stranger" or "foreigner") or a shortened form of the boy's name Borislav.

Could someone start by answering what the name Borka (or Borika) means in the Albanian language? Or if that's too difficult could someonw begin by listing which family/brotherhood she belonged to? Or which slava her family celebrated? Or at the very least can someone tell us what her surname was...?

There is no evidence at all that she was Albanian or "Albanian-speaking". Marko himself never mentioned she was. Infact no one ever mentioned she was until Albanian quasi-historians/nationalists started claiming it.

I know exactly which family she belonged too as I myself am from the neighbouring village of Gornja Vrbica in Kuči. The only families (brotherhoods) who have lived in my village over the last three hundred years are the Dobrošan-Jokanoviči, the Ivanović-Drekalovići, and the Popović-Drekalovići.

The closest neighbouring village to Gornja Vrbica is Medun – where duke Marko Miljanov Popović-Drekalović was born and raised in a house directly under the old fortress. The only family's who lived in Medun were the most powerful and nobel lineages of the two most powerful brotherhoods of the Kuči tribe :

(i) The Ivanovići - descendants of vojvoda Ivan Tomov Drekalović

(ii) The Popovići - descendants of pop (priest) Mirceta Lalov Drekalović.

Marko Miljanov Popović was a direct descendant of famed Kuč hero and orthodox priest pop Mirčeta Drekalović. That means generations and generations of Serbian-speaking Orthodox Serbs living in the same village.

It is absolutely CRAZY to claim that Marko Miljanov grew up only speaking Albanian in an Albanian speaking village – especially when you know that said village was the "capitol" and most important village in the entire tribe, and that Marko Miljanov was a member of one of the most nobel families of that tribe.

In his later years Marko built a larger home over the foundations of this old house. Following his death in 1901 the building was re-appopriated and became the first elementary school in Kuči. My great-grandfather Pero Radov Dobrošan-Jokanović walked everyday from Gornja Vrbica to Medun in order to educate himself in this building. As did my grandfather after him. Everything they learned they learned in the Serbian language. In the same building where Marko Miljanov wrote all his epics...in the Serbian language ~2026-60802-7 (talk) 19:47, 28 January 2026 (UTC)

Marko Miljanov's mother was Borika Jovanov Milić. She was born in the village of Ora(h)ovo, in the hamlet of Podgrada. Her family were of the Orthodox faith and spoke Serbian. The Milići are a branch of the brotherhood Vujošević. The Vujoševići are a branch of the Đurďevići. And the Đurđevići belong to the Staro-Kuči (old-Kuči) grouping of families, commonly known as the "Mrnjavčevići". The other major group of families in Kuči are the Drekalovići, to whom Marko Miljanov Popović belongs.

Borika Jovanov Milić had a brother named Đulja Jovanov, who was a MAJOR historical figure of the Kuč. He is featured extensivley in Miljanovs second published book "The Kuči Tribe in Folk Stories and Poems (Serbian: Племе Кучи у народној причи и пјесми, Belgrade 1904). The book is a collection of historical, folkloric and ethnographical (anthropological) data on the Kuči tribe. One of the main stories featured in the book is "Two Pohara Kuča"(Serbian: Два Похара Куча), where Marko relays the historically factual events surrounding the horrific Turkish massacre/genocide of the Kuči Tribe in 1774. The story is relevant to us because one of the main characters in the story is his mother's brother Đulja Jovanov Milić.

Via Markos own writing and his own words the truth comes out. Here is the English translation of sections of the work:

References:

"Two Pohara Kuča" (Serbian: Две похаре Куча)

https://stanjestvari.com/2023/04/11/miljanov-dve-pohare-kuca/

https://www.scribd.com/document/499422977/%D0%A1%D1%80%D0%BF%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8-%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82-2-%D0%9E-%D1%81%D0%BE%D1%98%D1%83

The Kuči Tribe in Folk Stories and Poems (Serbian: Племе Кучи у народној причи и пјесми, Belgrade 1904)

Из: Марко Миљанов, Сабрана дјела, књига 3, Племе Кучи у народној причи и пјесми, “Графички завод”, Титоград, 1967)

https://books.google.com/books?id=12xBAQAAMAAJ ~2026-63125-3 (talk) 10:12, 29 January 2026 (UTC)

Marko Miljanov Popović: Two Pograms of the Kuč

The first (1774):

When the Shkodra vizier heard this, he used this method: he gave a bribe to the Kuči, so that they would betray each other, and it turned out to be his turn. Some of the other Kuči accepted a bribe from the Turks and betrayed. Here are their names: Ljulja Palumbov, a Turk from the village of Ledina, Pale Lekin, Latinin from the village of Banjkana, Punan Dedin, a Serb from the village of Berove, Bećo Savićev, a Serb from Lijeva Rijeka. The four of them took a cap of bullets from the Turks each. (At that time, there was very little money. One bullet was worth one and a half grosz.) The Turks sent the money to the convicted traitors to distribute to the people and to repel the other Kuči from Drekalović.

The four mentioned distributed money to the people, who wanted to take it. When Punan Dedin distributed it to the Oraovci, he asked Ola Prašov: "Do you want, Uncle Ole, to betray the Drekalovićs?" Ole replied: "No, my soul." - "Do you want me to give you a bullet?" - "Yes, my soul." This saying still lives among the Oraovci, and other Oraov villages reproach the Podgrađanje when they refuse, telling them: "You will sell yourselves for a bullet, just like your elders."

For as much as these four divided the money, the Turkish army was bought to attack the Drekalovići. The Vizier of Skadar came with his army to Zeta to the Begovići tower. There he was met by two Oraovo heroes, Đulja Jovanov from Podgrad and Iveza Vukov from Kuta. The Vizier gave Đulja the banner to go before the Turks to the Drekalovići, but Đulja told him: "My Orthodox faith and heroic honor do not allow me to fight against my brothers". After a long conversation, the Vizier lowered the banner and rope through the window down the wall, saying: "Take, Đulja, now which one you want: the banner in front of the army or the rope around your neck". Speaking this, the Vizier was at the window of the higher Begovići tower, and Đulja was among the army, camped in the field around the tower.

After the vizier urged him to take the banner or rope, Đulja jumped out from between the army and came to the wall where the banner and rope were hanging and held on to a plank set higher for the gallows, saying: "Help me, God: I want the rope around my neck, not the banner against my brothers". Adding: "I leave everyone of mine as a bequest to the Drekalovićs, and I am happily dying for them", and he put the noose around his neck. The vizier told him again: "Take, Đulja, the imperial banner, and remove the rope from your neck, so that they do not move the plank from under your feet". Đulja replied, smiling mockingly: "I will do it myself, Pasha, so that your Turks do not suffer", and he stamped his foot, and the plank overturned, and he remained hanging. They say that the traitor Punan asked her: "Whose house does the crow stink of?" and Đulja replied: "Today it stinks of mine, and tomorrow it will stink of yours."

Then the vizier lowered the second rope next to the banner and turned his eyes to Đulja's friend Iveza and said to him: "Do you want the banner or the rope?" Iveza said: "I'll do what Đulja does," and headed for the gallows. But Iveza's cousin, a Turk, named Sulejman Kut, asked Adži-paša Osmanagić from Podgorica to defend him from the vizier and the gallows. Adži-paša grabbed Iveza so that he wouldn't go to the rope, saying to the vizier: "Honorable paša, can you buy him off with a treasure?" The vizier replied: "No." - "But can my son hang himself for him?" The vizier: "No." - Osmanagić: "Yes, I can, I'll give everything, but I won't give him away." He said this, holding Iveza by both shoulders. After this speech, the vizier remained silent, thoughtful, and only then did he say: "Here is Iveza, I present him to you." The army congratulated Osmanagić as the victor, when he set off with Iveza to his camp, and marveled at Iveza, how he was choked by tears and grief, leaving his friend Đulje behind. Turkish and Albanian soldiers said: "Look how grief choked him, when he got rid of the rope, and before, when he went to him, there was none of that." Many Turkish and Albanian heroes came to congratulate Iveza on his glorious death and his friend Đulje, not distinguishing one from the other, and Osmanagić boasted that he had rescued such a hero.

It is often said that the Turkish and Arab armies spoke and marveled at how Serbian heroes went to their deaths cheerfully, and were overcome by greater sadness when they were freed from it. This instilled great fear in the Turkish army, and they said that they were fighting in vain at Kuče, knowing how the armies were dying there, and seeing how they were willing to go to their deaths. This fear frightened the entire army, so many said that they were turning back, and God knows if anyone would ever return from that accursed ruin. ~2026-63125-3 (talk) 10:15, 29 January 2026 (UTC)

Марко Миљанов Поповић: Две похаре Куча

Прва (1774):

Кад ово чује скадарски везир, употреби овакви начин: дадне мито у Куче, да се међу собом издаду, и то му испадне за руком. Неки од осталије Куча примише мито од Турака и издадоше. Ево њиховије имена: Љуља Палумбов, Турчин из села Ледина, Пале Лекин, Латинин из села Бањкана, Пунан Дедин, Србин из села Берове, Бећо Савићев, Србин из Лијеве Ријеке. Они су четворица узели из Турака по капу пуља. (У то вријеме млого је тије пара било. Једна пуља имала је вриједност један и по грош.) Турци су послали пара по ријеченијема издајницима да дијеле народу и одбију остале Куче од Дрекаловића.

Поменута четворица дијелили су паре народу, ко је хтио узет. Кад је Пунан Дедин дијелио Ораовцима, питао је Ола Прашова: „Оћеш ли, стрико Оле, издат Дрекаловиће?“ Оле одговори: „Не, тако ми душе“. – „Ада оћеш да ти дадем пуљу?“ – „Оћу, тако ми душе“. Ова ријеч и сада живи међу Ораовцима, те друга ораовска села укоравају Подграђане, кад се поријечају, говорећи им: „Ви ћете се за пуљу продат, ка што су вам и стари“.

За колико су ови четворица дијелили паре, у толико се војска турска купила да удари на Дрекаловиће. Везир скадарски доша је с војском у Зету на кулу Беговића. Ту су му дошли два ораовска јунака, Ђуља Јованов из Подграда и Ивеза Вуков из Кути. Везир је дава Ђуљи барјак да иде пред Турцима на Дрекаловиће, но Ђуља му је река: „Не допушта ми православна вјера и част јуначка, да војујем противу браће“. Послије дужег разговора, везир је спуштио кроз прозор низа зид барјак и конопац, говорећи: „Узми, Ђуља, сад које оћеш: барјак пред војском или конопац на грло“. Говорећи ово, везир је био на прозор од повисоке куле Беговића, а Ђуља међу војском, улогореном на поље око куле.

Пошто га је нагонио везир да узме барјак или конопац, искочио је Ђуља између војске и доша при зиду ђе виси барјак и конопац и примио се на штицу повисоко намјештену за вјешала, говорећи: „Помози, Боже: оћу конопац на грло, а не барјак противу браће“. Додајући још: „Остављам мога свакога на аманет Дрекаловићима, а ја весело мрем за њи“, и метнуо је намчицу на грло. Везир му је опет река: „Узми, Ђуља, царско знамење, а макни конопац с грла, да ти не мичу штицу испод ногу“. Ђуља је одговорио, смијешећи се подругљиво: „Ја ћу, пашо, то учинит сам, да се не муче твоји Турци“, па је треснуо ногом, и штица се преврнула, а он оста висећи. Причају да је тада издајник Пунан пита: „На чију кућу врана смрди“? а Ђуља му одговорио: „Данас на моју, а сјутра ће на твоју“.

Онда је везир спустио и други конопац покрај барјака и обрнуо очи на Ђуљина друга Ивезу и река му: „Оћеш ли ти барјак или конопац?“ Ивеза је река: „Ја ћу што и Ђуља“, па је кренуо к вјешалима. Но потурчењак Ивезин рођак, који се зва Сулејман Кут, замолио је Аџи-пашу Османагића из Подгорице, да му га одбрани од везира и вјешала. Аџи-паша дофати Ивезу, да не иде на конопац, говорећи везиру: „Честити пашо, може ли га благо откупит?“ Везир одговори: „Не“. – „Ада може ли мој син да се за њега објеси?“ Везир: „Не“. – Османагић: „Аман, могу, све ћу дат, а њега не дам”. То је говорио, држећи Ивезу за оба рамена. Послије овога говора везир је ћута замишљен, па тек доцкан изговори: „Ето ти Ивеза, поклањам ти га“. Војска је честитала Османагићу као побједиоцу, кад је кренуо са Ивезом у свој логор, и чудила се Ивези, како га гуше сузе и жалост, остављајући Ђуљу свога друга. Турски и арбанашки војници говорили су: „Гле како га гуши жалост, кад се избави конопца, а прије кад иђаше к њему, ниђе тога не бјеше“. Многи су турски и арабанашки јунаци долазили, да честитају Ивези славну смрт његову и његова друга Ђуље, не разликујући једнога од другога, а Османагић дичио се, што је таквога јунака избавио.

Много се прича, да је турска и арабанашка војска говорила и чудила се, како српски јунаци весело у смрт иду, а виша их туга спопада, кад се од ње избаве. Ово је и велики страх у турску војску улило, и говорили су да се залуду на Куче војује, знајући како тамо војске гину, и гледајући како ови радо на смрт иду. Овај страх је поплашио цијелу војску, те су многи говорили да се натраг враћу, и Бог зна оће ли се ико вратит из тога проклетога крша. ~2026-63125-3 (talk) 10:17, 29 January 2026 (UTC)

evidence via Markos own words proving that Đulja Jovanov Milić and his sister Borika (Miljanovs mother) were Orthodox Serbs. Imthis directly contrasts with the lies that have been written on this page about Borika being an Albanian speaking Albanian Catholic.

Turkish and Albanian soldiers said: "Look how grief choked him, when he got rid of the rope, and before, when he went to him, there was none of that." Many Turkish and Albanian heroes came to congratulate Iveza on his glorious death and his friend Đulje, not distinguishing one from the other, and Osmanagić boasted that he had rescued such a hero.

"DAN" NEWSPAPER, PODGORICA

Tuesday July 17, 2018 WRITTEN BY DR RADOMIR PRELEVIC

A BANNER BEFORE THE ARMY OR A ROPE AROUND THE NECK

WRITTEN BY DR RADOMIR PRELEVIC

Each in their own time, these three unforgettable figures, all of the same lineage, all dedicated to the fight for freedom and celebrated among their people: Đulja Jovanov, Borika Miljanova and Arso Nikin, with their lives erected an unsurpassed monument to human virtue.

KUČI – THREE UNFORGETTABLE PERSONALITIES FROM THE MILIC BROTHERHOOD FROM ORAHOVA

Since the basic preparations for the campaign were complete, it was necessary to find Kuče who would carry the Turkish flag and show the way to the Turkish army, given that the Turks had a traumatic hundred-year experience with Kuče waywardness (battles on Orljevo: in 1688, called Malo Orljevo, in 1738, called Velje Orljevo or Debeli boj, and other major battles that were fatal for the Turkish army). For this purpose, it was desirable that the most reputable Kuče, those, the best heroes, take the role of leader, so that this would also be a factor in demoralizing the defenders. The great importance of this segment of the war plan is most eloquently demonstrated by the fact that the best Kuče heroes were sought for this role, as well as the fact that Mehmed Pasha personally, as commander-in-chief, negotiated with them.

In Marko Miljanov's book, we have a detailed and exciting interpretation of the bulk of Đulja's conversation with Mehmed Pasha Bušatlija, which we present here without abridgement.

"The Vizier of Skadar has arrived with the army in Zeta to the Begović tower. Two Oraovo heroes came to him there, Đulja Jovanov from Podgrad and Iveza Vukov from Kuta. The Vizier gave Bulja the banner to go before the Turks to Drekalovići, but Đulja refused.

- My Orthodox faith and heroic honor do not allow me to fight against my brothers.

After a long conversation, the vizier lowered a banner and rope through a window down the wall, saying:

- Take, Đulja, now which one do you want, the banner in front of the army or the noose around your neck!

Speaking this, the vizier was at the window of the higher Begović tower, and Đulja was among the army camped in the field around the tower. After the vizier urged him to take the banner or rope, Bulja jumped out from among the army and took hold of the plank set higher for the gallows, saying:

"Help me, God, I want a rope around my throat, not a banner against my brothers!"

Adding further: I leave my everything to the will of Drake-hunters, and I am happily dying for her! He put the namčica on his throat. The vizier said to him again:

Take, Đulja, the imperial standard, and remove the rope from your throat, so they don't remove the plank from under your no-ry!

Julja replied, smiling, mockingly:

"I, Pasha, will do it myself so that your Turks don't have to suffer!" So he stamped his foot and the plank overturned, and he remained hanging."

In the following, Marko Miljanov tells how the Shkodra vizier then offered Đulja's war comrade, Iveza Vukov, the same conditions, but Iveza chose to follow Đulja's feat and end up on the gallows. He was saved by a Turkified relative who had influence with the Podgorica pasha Osmanagić. Iveza then survived the terrible first Turkish raid on Kuča that followed in the following days, and lived until 1884.

The agonal actions of Bulja Jovanov, and then Iveza Vukov, left a strong impression on everyone present, which Marko Miljanov describes it this way: "It is often said that the Turkish and Albanian army spoke and marveled at how Serbian heroes cheerfully went to their deaths, and even greater sadness overcame them when they were freed from them! This also instilled great fear in the Turkish army, and they said that they were fighting in vain at Kuče, knowing how the armies were dying there, and seeing how they were happily going to their deaths. This fear frightened the entire army, so many said that they were turning back, and God knows if anyone would return from that damned ruin."

The folk song sang the unsurpassed feat of Bulja Jovanov Milić, as illustrated by the following verses that follow those describing the vizier's satisfaction with the success he achieved through bribery in Kučim:

At this the vizier was delighted, and called Bulja Oraovca/ To give him as much money as he wanted/ And before the army's colorful banner, / Whoever sees it, let everyone envy it. / And let him go before the emperor's army / To attack the Drekalovići / Bulja will not buy himself for the treasure, / But he said to the emperor's vizier: I cannot accept your treasure. / Nor carry the banner before the army, / Nor call myself a Serbian traitor, / But I would rather "die today".//

Again the vizier said to Bulja, "Take, Bulja, the emperor's standard/ Serve the emperor, you will not regret it./ I will give you treasures like stones/ And a sacred gift from the sultan."//

Bulja replied to the vizier:

"What are you fooling around with, Vizier of Skadar?/ How about giving me all of Istanbul./ I will not call myself a traitor,/ I will not call myself that,/ I will not slander myself like that/And give such an example to a Serb,/ Leave a trace of my rebuke./ Let him be rebuked and everyone talk to him/ And let me rebuke him for a long time"/ Oh! The Vizier got angry at Đulja/Hang him on a thin rope/By the white tower of Begović, In the middle of Zeta in the village of Mahala.//

Đulja was survived by his son Joko, who, however, had no male descendants, and, according to the local custom, it is said that Đulja's house was extinguished. However, his example of sacrifice for the salvation of the community is alive and eternally present, and is taught about in schools. The memory of Đulja Jovanova is also preserved by the street named after him, which leads from Podgorica towards Kuči through Masline and Doljani. Đulja Jovanova Street is followed by Iveze Vukova Street.

Folk poetry, through verses by Hajji Radovan Bećirović proclaims the glory of Đulja Jovanov Milić when he includes him among the sources of Montenegrin freedom:

..... And Milić Đulja Orahovac/ Was it better for Montenegro?

(TO BE CONTINUED)

Link to article (top of page 16):

https://old.dan.co.me/obavjestenjakonkursi/pdf/Issue_6996.pdf ~2026-63693-1 (talk) 13:01, 29 January 2026 (UTC)

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