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Talk:Mass killings under communist states/Archive 37

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Discussion regarding East Germany led to nothing

We had all of this discussion after I linked a news report quoting two different groups of historians, both of which are definitely not communist sympathisers, putting the total number of confirmed deaths during the whole existence of the GDR at 1841 or lower. These people are doing actual archival research, yet this article was locked in a version quoting as unrefuted truth a number two orders of magnitude higher that appears to be some kind of ballpark guess not backed by actual archival research. This divergence must be represented somehow, e.g. with a paragaph Other historians put the number far lower. A group of German researchers based at the German Wall Museum in Berlin has confirmed a number of 1841 deaths by state repression during the existence of the GDR, which includes people killed when trying to leave the country, Soviet Army deserters, and capital punishment. Other researchers of the Forschungsverbund SED-Staat put the number even lower. (News report as source). -- Seelefant (talk) 19:25, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Agree, we go by what the majority of WP:BESTSOURCES say, and they don't say anything that remotely approaches the description from Valentino, who is clearly WP:FRINGE on this issue. It is not clear where he gets this number, or what he means by it. Charitably, he is referring to the use of Forced labor of Germans in the Soviet Union, however this has very little to do with either "East Germany" or "Political repression" (or "Communism" since slave labor, ethnic cleansing, and interment in wretched conditions were generally-accepted Allied policies after the war). The mortality of the Westarbeiters (Germans from all over Eastern Europe) in the USSR was indeed very high (about 60,000 died by 1949). Since this article is WP:SYNTH, there is nothing to prevent editors from including both German POW's and civilians who died in Soviet captivity during and after the war. But the facts should at least be presented accurately. Guccisamsclub (talk) 23:22, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
PS There's no divergence of the kind you desribe. Valentino is referring to the deaths from "political repression" by the Soviet Union in "East Germany" after "1945?" (presumably not the GDR, which came into existence in 1949). According to good sources on this issue, 60,000 Germans from Eastern Europe died in the USSR after the war, where they were employed as forced labor as part of the Allied reparations scheme. So Valentino's description of these post-war deaths "diverges" from good sources like Pavel Polyan. Your sources are about the GDR, which is a different topic. Obviously there were no mass killing, nevermind political mass killings, by the GDR—though I can see how readers might get such an impression from this sloppy article.Guccisamsclub (talk) 23:42, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
So what is the way to proceed to at least get those sourced, divering opinions into the article? The article has been locked for years, and it looks like those who have the permissions to improve it have no interest in doing so. -- Seelefant (talk) 11:51, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
It is not clear what Valentino is referring to or where he got his information, which is presented on p. 75 of his book. Generally we would want a better source. Generally an estimate made by scholars in 2016 would be better than an estimate made in 2004, since it relies on more recent information. I suggest providing a specific edit recommendation either to remove the section or to provide a specific text reliably sourced. TFD (talk) 14:29, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Mass killings under Capitalist regimes

It would be interesting to link this page to the Mass killings under Capitalist regimes page but I can't find it anywhere. Is there any reason for it? Some other name?

At any rate, if there is anyone interested in building that page, let me know. We'll need a very big team cause this topic is sure to be immensely more work demanding than this one. (please sign here)

The used to be one, but it got deleted. You'd have to start with sources that define the topic. To my knowledge, the only sources that can serve as a skeleton for the topic you're proposing are the "The Black Book(s) of Capitalism" (one in French and another in German), "The Black book of Colonialism" (French) and maybe Chomsky's "Political Economy of Human Rights". From there, you'd have to tack on a lot of original research (most of it quite labor and capital intensive) to create the desired WP:POV-WP:COATRACK that can measure up to the POV-COATRACK par excellence we see here. I think it's a cool topic, but I am not sure I can commit to any serious effort. The resulting article will still cover each "mass-killing" much more poorly than the specialized articles that already exist. If you want to go through with it, create a sandbox and maybe we'll have an article in a year. Guccisamsclub (talk) 22:57, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
Maybe it could be linked to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalist_peace — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.110.131.148 (talk) 06:42, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
It is a bogus "theory". Look up World War I and World War II as striking examples that falsify anything about this appalling hypothsis. RhinoMind (talk) 19:25, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

See Anti-communist mass killings which is a weird mélange. Collect (talk) 23:09, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

I agree that articles of this sort inherently tend to "cover each 'mass-killing' much more poorly than the specialized articles that already exist," but it is a ludicrous false equivalence to claim that "mass killings under communism" is no more notable as a topic than "mass killings under capitalist regimes." (Communism is an all-encompassing political and economic system, and there have been many avowedly communist governments that declared themselves to be communist or Marxist-Leninist in their constitutions. The same is simply not true of capitalism. Nor is capitalism, the economic system, synonymous with colonialism or Chomsky's fictitious version of U.S. foreign policy.) In addition, your reference to "the desired WP:POV-WP:COATRACK" may come back to haunt you in the inevitable deletion discussion, as evidence that you are merely trying make a point about this article.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 23:59, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
Laugh all you want Times. This article appears to have been started by a total hack editor who's since been blocked. Guccisamsclub (talk) 00:04, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
If you refer to the article for which this is the talk page, I would suggest you read all the past AfDs on it, and the fact that you find the first editor to have been a "hack" is not relevant at this point at all. Collect (talk) 12:50, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
I was obviously responding to Times, who was saying that the motives of the article-creator are relevant when deciding on article deletion. Guccisamsclub (talk) 13:31, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
I did not mean to infer anything improper on your part. <g>. Collect (talk) 19:43, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
I have stated it before, and would like to state it again: If editors simply focused on describing and listing "mass-kilings", everything would be much more transparent, informative and objective.
Whenever someone tries to analyze or interprets motivations behind mass-killings, things gets murky and almost always a matter of a subjective, contextual viewpoint. RhinoMind (talk) 21:22, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

India

The number is not like genocide of other countries but together can they be included?

West Bengal under Communist Party of India

Whether or not to include something is based on having reliable sources that justify it. That is, it depends on whether there are reliable sources that characterize the killing in a way equivalent to "communist mass killing". Otherwise, collecting things like this is a violation of the policy against original research. AmateurEditor (talk) 04:48, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
The other issue is that they did not occur under Communist regimes. TFD (talk) 05:11, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Not terribly familiar with this particular state, but I have worked with south Asian politics, and IMO this does not fit. These governments were elected, and constitutionally bound; the killings were not premeditated government actions; they weren't mass killings in the sense that this article describes; and the sources do not support this assertion. Is there any evidence of reliable sources comparing these deaths to Stalin's purges (or the equivalent)? I'm not seeing any. Vanamonde (talk) 05:45, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
The numbers don't matter. As every Indian state is not ruled by communists. Change this to West Bengal instead of India. --Marvellous Spider-Man 06:01, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Hi. I am interested in knowing whether these violent incidents were rooted in personal and individual hatred or if they were a deliberate political strategy? Violent conflicts at the workplace or among groups of people are not necessarily the same as political violence. If a member of a certain party or organization commits a crime, it doesn't imply that the crime was a deliberate strategy by that party or organization. That would obviously be a far-fetched conclusion. RhinoMind (talk) 18:43, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Please refer to this too – https://www.mainstreamweekly.net/article2234.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mkv22 (talk • contribs) 16:28, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

Reply


  • So many sources can't be ignored. I am not going to comment about other editors. If anyone disagrees with me, then they are doing according to policy. But as many people have stated in Vanamonde93's RFA, he is very biased in his edits in Indian political articles. If this violence would have been linked to right wing political parties, then Vanamonde93 would have taken a different stand. Marvellous Spider-Man 05:40, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
  • That, presumably, is why I passed my RFA, and why you supported it? Making suggestions of bias is not going to help your case. These sources merely suggest that the Indian communist parties have engaged in politically motivated murder, as is quite common with South Asian parties. The article covers something quite different; as you would know, if you had read the sources. The governments here are authoritarian, which none of the Indian ones are, because they are elected. The killings discussed here are mass killings; not isolated murders. If you want to create an article about "political murder in India" or something, go right ahead; but in any case, this is content related to Assassination, not mass killing.Vanamonde (talk) 06:11, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
  • In the second part I have given sources that all these group murders are linked to CPM's policy of killing political rivals. And they are not plain assassination as killing 11 people, killing 18 people together is also mass murder. Marvellous Spider-Man 06:48, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
Hi and thank you very much! There is definitely a lot to read about this issue. I am not very well acquainted with South Asian everyday politics, so it is great to have some links to pursue in this interesting matter. I will try to read up on things. RhinoMind (talk) 20:06, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
Perhaps I should also state that I can only agree with Vanamonde93 about the "Regime argument". But as I believe I have stated already in previous posts, this entire article has some fundamental flaws in its scope. It is not very clear what the subject covers and this is a big problem. However, I don't think I have a quick solution to this fundamental problem right now, right here. Your info is nontheless interesting and important in some ways, I just don't know how to categorize it properly here on Wikipedia. I will look into it to see if we could at least categorize it as some kind of political violence in the first place. But there are many feelings and opinions in this, so it might be difficult to extract objective information. RhinoMind (talk) 20:06, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
Also: Do we have a page about "Political violence in South Asia" (or India for that matter)? Does anybody know? RhinoMind (talk) 20:11, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
  • Since India was not a Communist regime, it is outside the scope of this article. If you decide to create a new article, bear in mind that you need a reliable secondary source that connects the killings. TFD (talk) 01:00, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

I've opened an Arbcom amendment request to get full protection removed.

Here. While WP:AE gives administrators broad leeway, I feel that leaving an article fully protected for six years over a content dispute is flatly not acceptable under any circumstances. No matter how frustrating they might get, this isn't how we're supposed to deal with disputes. --Aquillion (talk) 06:07, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Full Protection of a very poor quality article. Why?

Hi. I would like to express concern about the current "full protection" of this article.

While the locking certainly protects the article from vandalism, it also enforces acceptance of a very poor quality article. Is that intentional perhaps?

The article is of a very poor quality for many reasons and most of them should be obvious to even the most inexperienced WP editor. For the sake of documentation, I can immediately list the following:

  • The structure and prose is overly confusing while at other times the information is extremely limited, bordering nonsense.
    • Example: Conjectures and speculation about the reasons behind the claimed killings are discussed in the beginning, even before the killings themselves has been documented or even discussed.
    • Killings under communist regimes in a number of states is only mentioned in very brief sentences, without any explanation at all. See the Others section specifically. Also the sections of East Germany and Romania (the "further information" is useless and misleading).
  • The article includes a lot of detail about other activities than killings. There is no explanation why these bits of information are relevant to the article. See the Hungary section for example.
  • Many deaths that obviously cannot be categorized as "killings" are included and without any explanation why they are categorized as killings.
  • The controversial claims in the article is not nuanced. Neither by obvious reservations nor critical sources and books discussing the issues.

What was the purpose of locking the article? Why was is done? Who did it?

The most pressing issue is to insert tags in the article. Tags that explain the problems and suggests basic improvements. As the article appears now it does not comply with Wikipedias standards.

Please notice, that the article is read by an average of 1000 individual readers each day (lately a maximum of 10,000 individual readers was reached!). In this context, Wikipedia should not present the contents as reliable facts or the article to be of a proper acceptable quality. It compromises Wikipedias entire credibility as a source of anything. RhinoMind (talk) 10:42, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

There were enough (five or six?) strong supporters of the article to prevent an effort to remove it as unencyclopedic. The major effort at the time of its creation was to remove it rather than to improve it. That is why it is fully protected. I agree that it is an embarrassment to Wikipedia. One weakness of Wikipedia is that a small number of people willing to devoted a large portion of their time and energy to keeping an article can override a large number of people who do not have or are not willing to spend that much time and energy. Rick Norwood (talk) 10:58, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for the info. I agree about the systemic problem. An important point. I have encountered it in other areas as well, and it can be quite discouraging. RhinoMind (talk) 12:53, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
I have never seen an article under full protection for years and years on end like this one. My position: remove full protection or delete the article. Perhaps it's time for another RfC?--C.J. Griffin (talk) 15:16, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
The topic lacks "Notability". While there have been a few studies comparing mass killings under Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot, there are no reliable sources that compare them all. But it has survived AfDs because there is an avid group of supporters and a lot of editors who will vote to keep anything. TFD (talk) 23:38, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
The article is certainly notable, it was subjected to five AfD's within a twelve month period, the last two resulting in solid keeps. Making WP:BADFAITH claims about the motivations of mostly uninvolved editors who voted to keep the article is symptomatic of a wider disruptive tendency that exists which has led to the article being fully protected as it is today. --Nug (talk) 00:48, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

That said, it is certainly possible to improve the article. The mechanism is to post a draft of the proposed changes to this talk page (or a sub-page if the changes are substantial), and if a consensus exists for the improvement then an admin will update the article. --Nug (talk) 01:02, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

If it's that notable, why doesn't Encyclopedia Britannica or any other reputable (or even disreputable) encyclopedia have an article about it? Why are there no university courses about the subject? TFD (talk) 01:16, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
Communism has its very own entry on page 81 in the Dictionary of Genocide, however no entry for capitalism. The dictionary sums up the essence of communism thus: "In most cases, the revolutionary nature of communism saw the new regimes tear down existing socioeconomic structures using brutal, even exterminatory, methods". --Nug (talk) 05:32, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
@Nug: Good point about the mechanism. At least that is an option I guess. RhinoMind (talk) 12:50, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
Nug, so the best you can find is a single sentence in a dictionary of genocide. Why not include that piece of information in the article about Communism and delete this article. TFD (talk) 14:34, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
You should have checked for yourself before declaring there wasn't one. AmateurEditor (talk) 18:12, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Note that there have been extended and repeated discussions about this, and the fact is that rejecting prior consensus is iffy at this point. Collect (talk) 14:41, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Why aren't there university courses? but there are. PSCI 214 - Mass Murder and Genocide Under Communism HISTORY 4N: A World History of Genocide [...] settler genocides in America, Australia, and Africa; the Armenian genocide and the Holocaust; genocide in communist societies; and late 20th century genocide. Not to mention dozens and dozens of books, and scholarly articles about the topic. One can certainly debate the topic, but the fact there there is a debate at all... is a sign of notability ;) ResultingConstant (talk) 15:30, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

ResultingConstant, as I wrote above, "While there have been a few studies comparing mass killings under Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot, there are no reliable sources that compare them all." The course outline says, "This course explores the origins, motivations and consequences of the brutal and deadly policies adopted in three very different communist regimes (the Soviet Union, China and Cambodia)." TFD (talk) 16:23, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
Again, you should have checked for yourself before declaring there were none. AmateurEditor (talk) 18:12, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
There are none. TFD (talk) 18:46, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
No true Scotsman. AmateurEditor (talk) 19:05, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
Is there any relevance to the link or do you just like posting random links? I said that other than sources that compared mass killings under Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot, there were no courses that discussed mass killings under Communist regimes in general. An editor then provided a link to a course about mass killings under Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot. TFD (talk) 19:36, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
You made false blanket assertions (No other encyclopedia articles, reputable or disreputable; no university courses about the subject), then modified your assertions to try to exclude the counter-examples provided to you. This reaction is called the "No true Scotsman" fallacy, as explained at the link. And ResultingConstant linked to two different university courses, not one. AmateurEditor (talk) 21:18, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
You obviously did not read what I said before responding. That is typical of ideologues. I will repeat for the third time: "other than sources that compared mass killings under Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot, there were no courses that discussed mass killings under Communist regimes in general." If you want to pursue your ideological position "duh I don't understand," post it to my talk page and stop wasting time to readers of this talk page. TFD (talk) 03:34, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
And that's an ad hominem (and mis-quote). AmateurEditor (talk) 04:25, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

ResultingConstant makes a valid point, and the back and forth between two good editors serves no purpose. As in the college course he describes, where communist genocide is one sub-head along with others, the proper place for the material in this article is in genocide, as an example of one of several kinds of genocide. To have a separate article singling out "communist" genocides and not, say, an article on "genocides by White men", which would be equally objectionable, is to use Wikipedia to propagandize when its mission is to inform. Rick Norwood (talk) 10:58, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

I fear you did not look anything up on Wikipedia -- see Genocide of indigenous peoples, Anti-communist mass killings, Genocide, Democide, Policide, Ethnocide, Definitions of politicide and a few others. Looks to me like you wish to shut one door when a dozen others are open already. Collect (talk) 13:03, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
Rick Norwood, the course outline says, "This course explores the origins, motivations and consequences of the brutal and deadly policies adopted in three very different communist regimes (the Soviet Union, China and Cambodia)." That might establish notability for an article about mass killings in those countries. The article, without providing any sources, implies that Putin, Castro, Syriza, and Podemos would given the opportunity kill millions of people. TFD (talk) 14:30, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
Rick Norwood, there were actually two university courses linked by ResultingConstant. The first was a more specialized course titled "PSCI 214 - Mass Murder and Genocide Under Communism". The second was a more generalized course titled "HISTORY 4N: A World History of Genocide", which included the sub-topic "genocide in communist societies". So the courses (and the other publications already identified in the article) support the idea of Wikipedia having both a dedicated article and a section in the genocide article about communism. And both courses characterize the phenomenon as applying to communist countries generally, even if they (like the written sources - and like this Wikipedia article) focus on the big three. AmateurEditor (talk) 14:55, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
That's a course at Stanford that was taught for 6 years by Norman Naimark who wrote a book based on the course, Genocide: A World History. That book has a chapter called "Communist Genocides", which is about mass killings under Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot and makes no reference to any other Communist regime. It's not enough to say that the courses imply that it applies to communist countries generally, you need to show that statement is explicitly made, otherwise it is original research. There is for example a chapter called "Modern Genocides." That does not imply that genocide is a characteristic of modern states. TFD (talk) 16:08, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
The chapter is titled "Communist Genocides". That would support renaming the article to something like "Communist genocides". The "Modern Genocides" chapter would support an article on modern genocide. I have not read the chapter, so I am not going to presume to know what is not in there. Neither should you, especially given your recent track record on such blanket statements. AmateurEditor (talk) 18:14, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Collect: you are right. I should have looked up other articles on genocide. My choice would be to group them all as subheads in the genocide article, where it would be easier to find them. AmateurEditor: How about an article titled Communist countries that have not committed genocide? I am not a communist, I'm a devout capitalist. But my patience with anti-communists is limited. Rick Norwood (talk) 16:56, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

How many of those other articles on genocide have been fully protected for years on end? Not one. There is a reason for that. TFD makes a good point and he has made it numerous times: most historical scholarship focuses on killings by Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot, and not on communist regimes in general. This is part of the problem here. Indeed, Valentino himself says on pg 91 that "most regimes that have described themselves as communist or have been described as such by others have not engaged in mass killing." How is this not mentioned in the lede of this article given that much of it is based on Valentino's work???--C.J. Griffin (talk) 17:14, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
C.J. Griffin, I was against protecting this article at the time and have proposed more than once since then to reduce the protection level. I agree that most sources focus on the big three of Stalin's Soviet Union, Mao's China, and Pol Pot's Cambodia, but it is wrong to say they do not focus on communist regimes in general since they typically label their chapters/books/course topics with "communist". The article reflects this, labeling the topic as applying to "communist" regimes and dedicating one section for each of those three. Some sources also mention other communist regimes, as you acknowledge, so it is appropriate that they be included here but given less weight, as we have done by lumping them into an "Others" section. As for why the lede isn't better, it's because of the article protection and editor apathy. Let's improve it now. AmateurEditor (talk) 18:14, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
Rick Norwood, there should be both (sub-sections in a genocide article and dedicated articles on each distinct topic, like this one, that has enough material to justify it). Here is the Wikipedia criteria for an article: "If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to be suitable for a stand-alone article or list." With "presumed" referring to the possibility of situations like those described in "What Wikipedia is not". If there are reliable sources that include a distinct topic of "Communist countries that have not committed genocide", then it could have a Wikipedia article, according to Wikipedia. I don't think you are going to find such sources. AmateurEditor (talk) 18:14, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
I suggest we change the name and scope of the article to "Mass killings under Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot." That would resolve the neutrality issues since there is an actual body of work about that subject. We could also mention in passing, as writers such as Valentino do that there have been mass killings in other Communist regimes, but that it was not typical. I note that Valentino writes about mass killings in Afghanistan but puts it in a chapter called "Counterguerrilla Mass Killings: Guatemala and Afghanistan". He also mentions the U.S. occupation of the Philippines (1899-1902) and war in Vietnam and other mass killings by non-Communists.
Rick, with anti-Communists you don't get to decide whether or not you are a Communist, they do. If you support civil rights, fluoridation of water or teaching evolution in public schools, that might be enough.
TFD (talk) 17:44, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

The Four Deuces With respect (seriously, I do respect you as an editor), but in this case, your argument is bunk for two reasons. 1) Everyone agrees that these are mass killings BY communist regimes. Because a topic does not cover every conceivable aspect or instance of that topic does not invalidate that topic. We could never have an article for almost any topic under that standard. The "implications" which you describe can easily be dealth with in the body of the article, just like they are for every article. 2) The courses and books scope themselves. Your scope disagrees. Too bad. Your scope is WP:OR and their scope is WP:RS, per WP:NPOV we should follow their lead as to what the topic means, not yours. While of course there is room in this room for dissenting and contrary opinions (per WP:NPOV) this topic is indisputable notable as both a collective topic, and as the least common umbrella topic for the individual incidents. ResultingConstant (talk) 17:57, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

The two courses and Valentino's chapter limit themselves to mass killings under Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot. WP:NPOV means "representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic.". Also, "An article...should strive to treat each aspect with a weight proportional to its treatment in the body of reliable, published material on the subject." It also says, "In some cases, the choice of name used for a topic can give an appearance of bias. While neutral terms are generally preferable, this must be balanced against clarity." Finally, WP:OR says, "Policy: Reliable tertiary sources can be helpful in providing broad summaries of topics that involve many primary and secondary sources, and may be helpful in evaluating due weight." My recommendation is entirely consistent with policy. Set the scope of the article according to that found in the sources that you have provided and provide a neutral and accurately descriptive name. TFD (talk) 18:41, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Update needed to edit notice

The edit notice on this article and on this talk page, currently visible only to administrators and those others who click "view source" appears not to have been adjusted since being written in February 2011. This is despite, in October 2011, the discretionary sanctions remedy linked to being superceded by standard discretionary sanctions and the case being renamed in March 2012. Linking to "WP:DIGWUREN#Discretionary sanctions" (WP:ARBEE#Discretionary sanctions on this talk page) is not particularly informative as (a) that remedy has been superceded, (b) it isn't immediately clear what has superceded it as the link barely moves the focus (down literally 2 lines when the box is in its default collapsed state), and (c) the new remedy is just an authorisation for standard discretionary sanctions that, unlike the original one, contains no details at all (those now being at Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions).

While far from the biggest problem affecting this article, a simple update to this should be uncontroversial, harmless and may even be beneficial. Thryduulf (talk) 23:57, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

That's fine with me. AmateurEditor (talk) 00:03, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
Good idea. RhinoMind (talk) 16:32, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

Total Mass Killings Not Truly Addressed

Protected edit request on 16 November 2017

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Peer review?

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Page restrictions removed

possible rewriting of lead

Please, remember the article is still under edit restrictions

Proposed rewriting of lead

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The edit restrictions seem to be lifted completely

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