Talk:North Korean defectors

Summarize Timeline Top Qs Fact Check

There has been an idea of addition of a mental/physical health and cultural adjustment related section to the article. So I am following up on that suggestion and am going to add this section. I think it is an important issue nowadays, especially, considering that it is something that becomes more and more evident. Here is the list of possible bibliographical sources. Please have a look and let me know if you have any suggestions or recommendations. Thanks!

1. Bidet, Eric. "Social capital and work integration of migrants: The case of North Korean defectors in South Korea." Asian Perspective 33, no. 2 (2009): 151-79. http://www.jstor.org/stable/42704676.

2. Chang, Yoonok, Stephan M. Haggard, and Marcus Noland. "Migration Experiences of North Korean Refugees: Survey Evidence from China." SSRN Electronic Journal. doi:10.2139/ssrn.1106323.

Choi, Seul Ki, Sang Min Park, and Hyojee Joung. "Still life with less: North Korean young adult defectors in South Korea show continued poor nutrition and physique." Nutrition Research and Practice 4, no. 2 (2010): 136. doi:10.4162/nrp.2010.4.2.136.

3. Choo, H. Y. "Gendered Modernity and Ethnicized Citizenship: North Korean Settlers in Contemporary South Korea." Gender & Society 20, no. 5 (2006): 576-604. doi:10.1177/0891243206291412.

4. Chung, Byung-Ho. "Between Defector and Migrant: Identities and Strategies of North Koreans in South Korea." Korean Studies 32, no. 1 (2008): 1-27. doi:10.1353/ks.0.0002.

5. Davis, Kathleen. "Brides, Bruises and the Border: The Trafficking of North Korean Women into China." SAIS Review 26, no. 1 (2006): 131-41. doi:10.1353/sais.2006.0004.

6. Haggard, Stephan, and Marcus Noland. "The North Korean Refugee Crisis: Human Rights and International Response." 1-76. doi:ISBN 0-9771-1111-3.

7. Jeon, Bong-Hee, Moon-Doo Kim, Seong-Chul Hong, Na-Ri Kim, Chang-In Lee, Young-Sook Kwak, Joon-Hyuk Park, Jaehwan Chung, Hanul Chong, Eun-Kyung Jwa, Min-Ho Bae, Sanghee Kim, Bora Yoo, Jun-Hwa Lee, Mi-Yeul Hyun, Mi-Jeong Yang, and Duk-Soo Kim. "Prevalence and Correlates of Depressive Symptoms among North Korean Defectors Living in South Korea for More than One Year."Psychiatry Investigation 6, no. 3 (2009): 122. doi:10.4306/pi.2009.6.3.122.

8. Jeon, Woo-Teak, Shi-Eun Yu, Young-A Cho, and Jin-Sup Eom. "Traumatic Experiences and Mental Health of North Korean Refugees in South Korea."Psychiatry Investigation 5, no. 4 (2008): 213. doi:10.4306/pi.2008.5.4.213.

9. Kim, Jih-Un, and Dong-Jin Jang. "Aliens among brothers? The status and perception of North Korean refugees in South Korea." Asian Perspective 31, no. 2 (2007): 5-22. http://www.jstor.org/stable/42704587.

10. Kim, Mike. Escaping North Korea: defiance and hope in the world's most repressive country. Lanham, MD: Rowman & Littlefield Pub., 2008.

11. Lankov, Andrei. "Bitter Taste of Paradise: North Korean Refugees in South Korea." Journal of East Asian Studies 6, no. 01 (2006): 105-37. doi:10.1017/s1598240800000059.

12. Lankov, Andrei. "North Korean Refugees in Northeast China." Asian Survey 44, no. 6 (2004): 856-73. doi:10.1525/as.2004.44.6.856.

13. Lee, Yunhwan, Myung Ken Lee, Ki Hong Chun, Yeon Kyung Lee, and Soo Jin Yoon. "Trauma experience of North Korean refugees in China." American Journal of Preventive Medicine 20, no. 3 (2001): 225-29. doi:10.1016/s0749-3797(00)00282-8.

14. Margesson, Rhoda, Emma Chanlett-Avery, and Andorra Bruno. "North Korean refugees in China and human rights issues: International response and US policy options." Congressional rept., September 26, 2007, 1-42. ADA473619.

15. Min, Pyong Gap. "The Structure and Social Functions of Korean Immigrant Churches in the United States." International Migration Review 26, no. 4 (1992): 1370. doi:10.2307/2546887.

16. Nanto, Dick K., and Mark E. Manyin. "China–North Korea Relations." North Korean Review 7, no. 2 (2011): 94-101. doi:10.3172/nkr.7.2.94.

17. Wu, Anne. "What china whispers to North Korea." The Washington Quarterly 28, no. 2 (2005): 35-48. doi:10.1162/0163660053295239.

18. YOON, IN-JIN. "North korean diaspora: north korean defectors abroad and in South Korea." Development and Society 30, no. 1 (June 2001): 1-26. http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.558.2070&rep=rep1&type=pdf.

 --AVM SIB (talk)

Summarize Timeline Fact Check

"Defectors who are willing to condemn the north and are able to provide information that is helpful to the United States and South Korean forces are offered ₩1,000,000,000 (equivalent to approximately $870,000 USD)"

I argue this line is unreliable, the original souce is written by an Australian Marxist, and the book itself doesn't explicitly cite where they get this information from. The only clue it gives is to Beal, Tim. 2005. North Korea: The Struggle Against American Power. London: Pluto.

The source has this:

Christian communism has appeared elsewhere in Asia, most notably Minjung

theology in South Korea (Kim and Ho 2013). But I am more interested in a

part of Asia about which there is much speculation, misinformation and

precious little realistic and reliable information: The Democratic People’s

Republic of Korea (dprk), or ‘North Korea’ as it is unofficially called. Some

have hypothesised that religion does not exist in the dprk, since the state is

atheistic and religious people have been suppressed and eliminated (Kong 1974;

Worden 2008, 115–16; Havet and Gaudreau 2010). These accounts usually rely on

the unverified hearsay of ‘defectors’, even though anyone who leaves the north

and is willing to condemn the government is offered one billion won (usd

$870,000) for doing so, as long as they provide information that is helpful to the

United States and South Korean forces.1

1. For a timely caution against the nature and use of such ‘evidence’ as well as motivations by the United States and other countries, see Beal’s careful study (2005, 129–66).

I could not verify where Beal 2005 mentions this, thus I consider the original source unreliable. AtomicNumberPhi (talk) 08:03, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Ideological/national basis of sources (in this case, "Australian Marxist") is not really germane to reasonable sources. The policy essentially recognizes that every source has some form of perspective.

That being said, here's a BBC source that discusses the $870,000 payment for defectors but frames it as providing "useful information for security" instead of "willing to condemn." Let's see if anyone else has a perspective to share on the talk page, but I have no objection if you want to switch it to the BBC source. JArthur1984 (talk) 13:01, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Here's another source we could incorporate (this is before the pay increased to $840,000) which talks about hourly fees paid to defectors. As of May 2014, South Korean government fees paid to defectors ranged from $50 to $500 per hour of interviews, depending on quality of information. JArthur1984 (talk) 13:05, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

I objected to the use of this source primarily because it was contained in a book about Christian Communism, not specifically about NK, and the source it links that supposedly had the information did not mention this. I suggest using neutral wording, something like “provide confidential information to the US and ROK” and switch to the BBC Source. AtomicNumberPhi (talk) 13:08, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

This is from the chapter specifically about North Korea and Cheondoism. JArthur1984 (talk) 16:38, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Not my point, It still doesn't change that the original author did not do his due diligence of proper citation. Can we get this over with and replace the source and rewrite it with more neutral wording? AtomicNumberPhi (talk) 17:05, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes, to rewrite is fine. There's no need to be bristle. This is now the third time you've said something as though it mattered toward the analysis, but then receded when shown why it's not relevant to the analysis ("leftist publisher about Christian Socialism" "Australian Marxist" "Christian Communism"). If you don't think points like that matter, you don't need to bring them up on Talk pages. It invites a response. JArthur1984 (talk) 22:03, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

See this source: Jack Upland (talk) 00:23, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

This person is NOT a reliable source. 2600:1700:B840:501F:859:96B1:C687:D86B (talk) 02:24, 11 February 2025 (UTC)

I agree.--Jack Upland (talk) 01:08, 12 February 2025 (UTC)

These two sections should not ever be combined. This is very alarming. Non-fictional representations and fictions should absolutely not be given the same weight for starters. But also this suggests a complete lack of concern for matters of fact so long as ideology is appeased. Simonm223 (talk) 13:55, 12 February 2025 (UTC)

I'm afraid I quite glossed over this in my recent edit, but you are entirely correct.

I am afraid in addition to the source discussed on the talk page and subject to my recent removal and then a restore, there is a problem of WP:INDISCRIMINATE in the section more broadly. JArthur1984 (talk) 15:45, 12 February 2025 (UTC)

But why? Is it because they're sending income back home? 1101 (talk) 08:28, 1 April 2025 (UTC)

And can they really be said to be a defector then, or are they rather a migrant labourer? 1101 (talk) 08:29, 1 April 2025 (UTC)

Recently a draft at Draft:North Korean defection methods was declined, and a reviewer suggested that it should either be built further, perhaps by consensus found here; or, it could be merged into here in case there is anything interesting in it. I did not write the draft, but I found it interesting and improved it while it was awaiting review. BlockArranger (talk) 21:23, 2 June 2025 (UTC)