Talk:Orthodox Church of Ukraine/Archive 1

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. There are a lot of issues at play here, and I suggest discussion continue as to how to resolve them, but regarding this specific move request there is clearly no consensus to go ahead at the present time.  — Amakuru (talk) 14:22, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

Orthodox Church of Ukraine → Ukrainian Orthodox Church – WP:CONCISE 2600:8806:6400:1440:75A7:6A62:4080:6B54 (talk) 01:02, 9 January 2019 (UTC) --Relisting. Steel1943 (talk) 19:14, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). –Ammarpad (talk) 05:26, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

• Needs discussion per the existence of articles such as Orthodox Church of France, and the fact that both "Orthodox Church of Ukraine" and "Ukrainian Orthodox Church" seem to be commonly used. feminist (talk) 05:13, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

It is the official name of the church in its charter (see the article) and in its tomos^[1], just like the Church of Greece and the Church of Cyprus. Moreover, it helps to differenciate from the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate). Besides, the expression "Orthodox Church of Ukraine" is widely used.^[2][3][4] Lastly, "Ukrainian Orthodox Church" is only allowed as it has been precised in the article by a bishop of the OCU. "per the existence of articles such as Orthodox Church of France" I do not get what you mean. Veverve (talk) 08:45, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

I reject the proposal to change its name for the reasons mentioned above.--TheCaliBook (talk) 15:01, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

If this move is not made, what should be the destination for Ukrainian Orthodox Church? The status quo has been a redirect to History of Christianity in Ukraine but it has just become a redirect to Ukrainian Orthodox Church (disambiguation) (an invalid situation per WP:MALPLACED). It will help if expert editors can review incoming links, such as that in {{Dioceses of the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople footer}} (used in 24 articles), and retarget them to the appropriate article. I am willing to help but don't have the subject knowledge to do this competently. Certes (talk) 12:57, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

I noticed the problem cited by Certes in Kievan chant, and made Ukrainian Orthodox Church a redirect to this article, with a hatnote here pointing to the disambiguation page. I hope that this solution will satisfy everyone. —capmo (talk) 14:42, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

Seems feasible.TheCaliBook (talk) 22:27, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

"If this move is not made, what should be the destination for Ukrainian Orthodox Church?" links which before led to Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate) should still link the UOC-MP article. Veverve (talk) 23:14, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

All of those links led to the same place: History of Christianity in Ukraine until December 2018, since when the target has oscillated between Orthodox Church of Ukraine and the disambiguation page. I expect some of them should lead to UOC-MP instead. Normally in such cases I go through the links and can quickly divert most of them to an obviously correct target, but here I don't know which links intend the UOC-MP and will have to hope that subject experts can fix them. Certes (talk) 01:13, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

My edit to Ukrainian Orthodox Church has been reverted by TheTexasNationalist99 with an irate edit summary that reads "THIS HAS NOT BEEN DECIDED TO REDIRECT THE ARTICLE. Stop with the BIASED NONSENSE." After reading History of Christianity in Ukraine I understood better the whole situation regarding the UOC-MP. Maybe the redirect should have "History..." as its target again, as it did for the last 7 and a half years. —capmo (talk) 03:02, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

I support the idea of capmo of leaving things as they are. Veverve (talk) 03:41, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

It pesters me how since this has happened, the West is confusing Orthodoxy with a centralized, Bartholomewic papal structure, and the history of Christianity in Ukraine. It should be left to the history article or the disambiguation.TheTexasNationalist99 (talk) 04:55, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

Link to similar discussions from long ago: Talk:Ukrainian Orthodox Church (disambiguation). Certes (talk) 10:27, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

While we're here, is everyone happy with Ukrainian OrthodoxUkrainian Orthodox and several other titles redirecting to History of Christianity in Ukraine? Also pinging BD2412, as the main participant in the older discussions. Certes (talk) 10:41, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

• A major problem right now is that the disambiguation page is poorly done. From reading it, one would think that no Orthodox Church existed in Ukraine at all until 1924. Unfortunately, the linked articles are not much help, because there are multiple of these churches that claim to be the "original" Ukrainian Orthodox Church going back 500 years. This whole situation needs to be blown up and rebuilt from scratch, but pointing "Ukrainian Orthodox Church" to the disambiguation page is neither permissible nor helpful. bd2412 T 12:09, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
• Comment. Having in mind the complexity of all subject related to Eastern Orthodoxy in Ukraine, it seems to me that titles like Orthodox Church of Ukraine and Ukrainian Orthodox Church should not be used as article titles or redirects, since several church bodies are using the same nomenclature. Therefore it would be best to use those titles for disambiguation pages. That solution would be neutral, and quite useful, since it would fix several problems. And in regard to the title of this particular article, it might be moved to Orthodox Church of Ukraine (2018) or something like that, since that particular church body was created in 2018, and this article clearly covers only the period since 2018. That is quite a narrow scope, and it should be reflected in the title. This is not a general article on Eastern Orthodoxy in Ukraine, and therefore current title should be adjusted to reflect the particular subject of its contents. Sorabino (talk) 11:29, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.