Talk:Pasta/Archive 2

Definitions of noodle

Oxford: A very thin, long strip of pasta or a similar flour paste, eaten with a sauce or in a soup.^[1]

Merriam-Webster: a food paste made usually with egg and shaped typically in ribbon form^[2]

Cambridge: a long, thin strip of pasta made from flour, water, and sometimes eggs, and cooked esp. in boiling water or soup^[3]

If you take any of these definitions to be true, the first sentence of this article is saying that "Pasta is a long, thin strip of pasta".

The Wikipedia Noodle page states that noodles can be "cut into one or a variety of shapes which usually include long, thin strips, or waves, helices, tubes, strings, or shells, or folded over, or cut into other shapes."

I struggled to find any examples of helix, tube or shell-shaped food bits being referred to as noodles, but I very easily found Fusilli, Rotini, Penne, Macaroni and Conchiglie which are all helix, tube or shell-shaped types of pasta.

"Pasta is a type of noodle" is an inaccurate and unnecessary statement that doesn't belong in the article.

Dlavaenevogl (talk) 12:40, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

What Dlavaenevogl says makes sense. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 13:08, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

Summarizing the argument, I believe Dlavaenevogl is saying that noodles (spaghetti, macaroni) are definable as pasta, but pasta is a wider category than just noodles, such as including dumplings (gnocchi, tortellini), lasagna, corzetti, and other non-noodle dishes shown here. In one of the prior edits, this Guardian source was used to differentiate between pasta and noodles, but it is really not a good source for this definition. This source offers a difference in ingredients, processing, and - in countries like Italy, regulations - between typical noodles and various pastas. --Zefr (talk) 14:08, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

Hmmmmmm, that makes sense too. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 18:22, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

Except it doesn't. They're both unleavened dough that is formed into a shape, and then dried or cooked. They meet the definition of noodle. In North America, the term noodle (arguably) eroneously refers only to narrow noodles, but there's not really any such restriction functionally; lasagne (for example) is the same product, just shaped differently. We're not a dictionary. Just because North Americans don't refer to lasagne as noodles doesn't mean they aren't. GliderMaven (talk) 22:49, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

The issue here is with Wikipedia's definition of a noodle, which differed from accepted usage. Wikipedia's definition of a noodle has changed from it's previous incorrect definition which had an overly broad scope. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dlavaenevogl (talk • contribs) 22:15, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

No, I just checked and the definition at noodle still covers pasta. GliderMaven (talk) 03:27, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

Note that dictionary definitions are irrelevant here. This is a confusion of the definition of noodle as well as pasta. Wikipedia defines a noodle as 'Noodles are unleavened dough which is stretched, extruded, or rolled flat and cut into one of a variety of shapes which usually include long, thin strips, or waves, helices, tubes, strings, or shells, or folded over, or cut into other shapes.' Note that that definition covers pasta, as described in this article. We're defining pasta in terms of wikipedia's own article's scope, not that of any dictionaries. BY OUR WIKIPEDIAN DEFINITION, pasta is a type of noodle.

In North America 'noodle' is defined in specific ways, that differ from England or (for that matter) the definition in noodle, usually based on size. We're not defining either term, we're scoping out an article. In this article we're considering unleavened dough, specifically made of durum wheat which has been formed into various shapes, as well as other similar products that are intended to be used as drop-in replacements, that may not actually contain durum wheat. GliderMaven (talk) 22:20, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for that clarification and explanation. 71.198.89.109 (talk) 23:35, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

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Typo in 1st sentence: "is type" to "is a type". 71.198.89.109 (talk) 19:32, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

 Done GliderMaven (talk) 21:22, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

User:GliderMaven I get what you're looking to do here, in terms of defining rather than describing the subject, but I'm not satisfied that we can say that pasta is a type of noodle - to my eyes, that's absolutely nonsensical. A noodle is a thing that you eat; pasta is both the material that it's made from, and the word is used as a mass noun refer to any kind of food made from that stuff - including noodles, if they are made from pasta (which they aren't always). Why not phrase it as something along the lines of 'Pasta is a type of food typically made from unleavened...' - that avoids the jarring, 'that has to be a mistake' response that a great many readers will have upon reading that opening sentence? GirthSummit _(blether) 19:49, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

The result of the discussion above was that there was a rough consensus that pasta is a type of noodle. If you want to discuss ways to improve the wording, that's fine, but I feel you're being disingenuous, since the term pasta primarily refers to noodles made from durum wheat. We can certainly add an explanation about the use of the term 'pasta' to include dishes that include pasta if you like though, but in the meantime I'm reverting your edit. GliderMaven (talk) 03:24, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

GliderMaven Please strike the suggestion that I'm being disingenuous - I'm not. And I'd also be grateful if you'd note that you did not need to revert my edit - I did change your text, but then I self-reverted, feeling it was better to discuss here before changing the text. It was User:Vaselineeeeeeee who reinstated my original change, so it appears that they agree with me that your text is, at the very least, not the best possible wording.

Looking at the conversation above (I haven't looked through the archive, so please point me to anything I've missed), I don't see a consensus. I see that several people disagreed with your position, offering various sources and arguments, but none of them stated that they had come round to your view, they just stopped arguing. Only the IP editor explicitly said that they agreed.

Your argument seems to hinge on how Wikipedia defines noodles and pasta, but I don't really see how that gets us anywhere - Wikipedia is not a reliable source, so either article could be wrong; drawing conclusions and making assertions that aren't directly supported by sources is discussed at WP:SYNTH. The sources presented in the discussion above do not agree with your definition of pasta as a type of noodle, and I've yet to see you present a source that does support that definition. Please could you present the sources you are using for this definition?

I continue to feel that replacing the word 'noodle' with 'food' in the first sentence would be an improvement. GirthSummit _(blether) 06:20, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

Believe it or not, I made that change without seeing this. -Roxy, the dog. wooF 09:58, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

This edit was reverted because it presents no encyclopedic information, has definitions unique to Canada, and does not represent information of general interest to a typical encyclopedia user, as displayed in the two sources. The editor making the entry is apparently one of many university summer students having an assignment to add Canadian food regulations to numerous Wikipedia articles, shown here. I have been reverting these entries as unnecessary content unique to Canada and unencyclopedic. --Zefr (talk) 22:37, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

There is a regulations section with Italy and the United States listed so far. This list could certainly be expanded for several prominent countries where sources exist. Just because no one has done it yet, does not mean it should not be added or is unencyclopedic. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 02:51, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Canada is ranked about 19th for production (2015). It's unwarranted to discuss regulations for minor manufacturers, WP:UNDUE. --Zefr (talk) 03:36, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Fair enough. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 15:24, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

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49.150.137.117 (talk) 05:00, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

://dausel.co/rBrVuV dausel.co/rBrVuV dausel.co/rBrVuV dausel.co/rBrVuV dausel.co/rBrVuV dausel.co/rBrVuV

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Melmann (talk) 06:10, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

I disabled the links above. They are malicious. Semper Fi! FieldMarine (talk) 17:38, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

I wonder if that infobox should be changed. The Marco Polo myth of origin is dealt with in the article, but the etymology of the word is Greek, the Greeks made something called lagane which gives them at least as much credit as the Italians to the conceptual precursor, and there is stithw question of whether Arabs brought pasta into Italy from elsewhere. In all, I think it's quite reductive to say "Italy" is the place of origin of pasta frey (talk) 17:30, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Pasta as we know it is originated in Italy. Like for soccer ir rugby it isn't referenced calcio fiorentino or harpastrum  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.0.218.9 (talk) 19:23, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

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Pasta origins are Greece not Italy . Almost 1000 years before Marco Polo . China's noodles were not noodles .they were tiny pieces of little bread like bits 107.190.109.82 (talk) 21:30, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. —Sirdog9002 (talk) 21:41, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Alimentary Paste and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 May 8#Alimentary Paste until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Steel1943 (talk) 02:01, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

Pasta is just noodles for pretentious food snobs. It's boiled dough. AKA noodles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:9E8:37C9:BA00:9CD1:27CA:CDFA:2A7F (talk) 17:07, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Pasta is from China 75.141.170.229 (talk) 14:47, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Noodles are from Italy. -Roxy the dog 15:18, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

It would be nice to see some history. The current article doesn’t mention China (except re: Marco Polo). There are a few comments in Talk (esp. Archives1).

I couldn’t figure it out using Google. (… I’m hoping someone can).

First problem is defining pasta (from dough or pastry or noodles).

(Second problem: origin). This says there’s not enough info to say the origin.

This says the Greeks mentioned the existence of laganon, a flat pasta sheet, before 800BC. Also cited in Archives1. (But it’s probably not pasta).

This might have the answer… but I don’t know how to read it.

(Third problem:) I couldn’t find any info on the development of pasta in China. It seems to me it’s all noodles, and isn’t pasta, until after 1300 AD.

MBG02 (talk) 15:56, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

It's easy. Noodles are Asian (and American - oddly enough), and pasta is Italian. You are welcome. - Roxy the dog 16:24, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

That contradicts your last post (Noodles are from Italy. -Roxy the dog 15:18, 14 November 2022).

But I’m (now) inclined to agree. The Google finds for pasta in China are exceptionally sparse: and seem to be (only) millet about 2000 BC, rice flour about 1000 BC, and (non durum) wheat about 1000 AD. MBG02 (talk) 09:38, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

Context is everything. - Roxy the dog 09:43, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

Look.

Boiled thread-like pastry is actually common in different cultures:

• If it's Italian: Pasta or, more precisely, Spaghetti;
• If it's Caucausus Caucausian: Laghman;
• If it's Japanese: Udon;
• If it's Chinese: can refer to "lamian", a precursor to laghman; but using word "noodles" would be more helpful. 109.252.66.34 (talk) 19:55, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

Sources (not sauces) are what matter here. Bring us sources to discuss. My own impression is that 'pasta' is the wheat-dough-type stuff from which the various shapes are made - be it noodles, lasagne sheets, macaroni tubes or whatever. Noodles are the things that are made from that dough - or from rice dough, or whatever other dough. But to have a meaningful discussion, we need sources. Girth Summit _(blether) 20:22, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

I'm not going to argue with "Nonna Girth." - Roxy the dog 23:26, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

I don't like the title photo.

• Too dark,
• too many kinds of dry pasta lumped together,
• I was expecting to see a plateful of cooked pasta. 109.252.66.34 (talk) 19:48, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

Shouldn't something be done to regulate additions to the See also section which are completely off-topic? Tteokbokki is a food consisting of rice cakes. The only link with pasta is that you eat it. Nuttyskin (talk) 16:38, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

• OK, removed, since it wasn't really pasta-related, and not even noodle-related in general. I added a link to noodle soups instead, since pasta can be used in place of the Eastern-style noodles for some creativity points. Профессор кислых щей (talk) 07:22, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

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The Wikipedia article on Cascatelli pasta might be nice to mention in this main article, as it is a modern shape (2019) specifically designed to have certain performance characteristics. It could go in the Science section, for example. Mjtheisenusa (talk) 15:49, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

 Not done - the format for proposing a change in the article is to give "a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected." Zefr (talk) 18:26, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Inmamaskitchen.org (original website, see https://web.archive.org/web/20120331135946/http://www.inmamaskitchen.com/FOOD_IS_ART/pasta/historypasta.html for archived website) may not be a source that is reliable (it doesnt seem to have any sources itself), if possible someone should find a different source for this information if at all possible (Maybe citation needed may be better?) Rocksok (talk) 17:45, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

I would like to add info about the longest "sfoglia" (fresh egg pasta) ever made but I cannot edit the page. Adry0104 (talk) 11:20, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

@Adry0104: in my opinion, it isn't necessary to add this record. JacktheBrown (talk) 05:57, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

I agree with JackkBrown. This is a trivial record not worth mentioning on Wikipedia. Someone could easily build a machine that could produce a strand of pasta of unlimited length. Who cares? Cullen328 (talk) 06:05, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

ok! Adry0104 (talk) 14:29, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Please add a “see also: noodles” link to this article.

Reason: pasta seems to be a subtype of noodles. For a reader interested in the food type in general but not exclusively the Italian variety this cross-reference would make sense. 2A02:2121:61E:7387:D91F:52C9:6E0E:27DF (talk) 08:51, 8 November 2024 (UTC).

The question of whether pasta is a subtype of noodles has been discussed extensively here - see the archive. That said, I would object to a 'see also' link, since the two subjects are obviously related. Girth Summit _(blether) 09:20, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Same vibes as aluminium vs aluminum :P Sirocco745 (talk) 09:21, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I think there are regional variations in how the words are used. For me, a noodle is a long stringy thing made of dough. Spaghetti is probably a type of noodle, but I don't think lasagne would qualify. Noodles are one of the things that you can make with pasta, and pasta is one of the things that you can make noodles out of - they're intimately connected, but one isn't a sub-type of the other. Girth Summit _(blether) 16:59, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

"Noodles and pasta are actually two very different things": . Other sources: ; ; ; ; ; ; ; . JacktheBrown (talk) 13:42, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Nah. Diorite and souffle are two very different things. Noodles and pasta are two very closely related things, so closely related that a great many people conflate them, but I agree with you that they aren't quite the same thing, and one is not a subset of the other. Girth Summit _(blether) 00:55, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Pasta-paste,the dought,as in english Macaroni,end product for funeral rituals Originaly derived from the word 'Παστά' which means placed tightly to one another,like pasta does.verb 'παστομενος'. 94.67.7.236 (talk) 08:50, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

You'd need a source.--KimYunmi (talk) 02:16, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

Pilaf dates from 400 BCE, according to the pilaf article, which then creates a discrepency and it looks very POV on this article that it is failed to be mentioned this is the case, because pilaf is defined as a dish that looks like rice, but is in fact pasta.

Also, there should be mention about the origin of the ingredients likely being from Turkey, where the Etruscans came from, but this article tries very hard to slant it towards Italy, which is also dishonest, since they were in Turkey, Modern day Greece and only central Italy. Could we get the articles to actually line up so it's NPOV without erasing sources?--KimYunmi (talk) 02:16, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

pasta isn't mentioned even once in the pilaf article, and pilaf isn't mentioned once in the pasta article. Roxy the dog 03:48, 24 May 2025 (UTC)