Talk:Puberty/Archive 3

I came here looking specifically for the behavioral changes, and found nothing.

Of course; as all humans are subject to education in their formative years, we cannot make any true ethological research. But possibilities are:

-Behavioral patterns during Puberty in Western Society

-Behavioral patterns during Puberty in indigenous cultures

-Behavioral patterns of non-human primates during puberty

Surely there must be statistical research on:

-Frequency of sexual activity

-Frequency of violent behaviour

-Movement away from parents towards sovereinity

-Group formation

Just some suggestions, I will try to find relevant sources. FreieFF (talk) 16:19, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the contributions if you do, but wouldn't those be more appropriate in Adolescence ?--Aréat (talk) 16:29, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for the suggestion.

Wiktionary definition of puberty: "A developmental phase brought about by the action of hormones as part of the maturing process."

Start of this article: "Puberty is the process of physical changes through which a child's body matures into an adult body capable of sexual reproduction."

Puberty, in common usage as well as dictionary meaning, refers to more then just the bodily development. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I would therefor rewrite the first sentence of the article, and replace it with the wiktionary meaning, but only after I would have a coherent section on behaviour, if this is deemed a reasonable addition.

I am surely not the only one who comes to the Puberty article looking for information on behaviour during puberty; the hormones that change the body also (heavily) change the psyche (in as far as body and psyche can be coherently separated at all).

One more thing to add, is that this article refers among other things to educational sources. Educational sources cannot be used to describe human behaviour; they are arbitrary and their function is altering behaviour, not describing behaviour.

As far as educational sources are concerned, we could make a topic like "Puberty in Western Culture". --FreieFF (talk) 17:46, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

I reverted this per the reasons in my edit summary. Please review and study WP:MEDRS. There is no need for "Research by De Sanctis et al. (2014) among Italian girls, shows an average onset of menstruation (menarche) at an age of 12.4 years." material in the article.

No, this article should not significantly be about adolescence. There is some psyche material in this article. See, for example, the "Physical and mental illness" and "Stress and social factors" subsections of the "Variations" section. But some parts needs better sourcing and most of it needs sourcing.

Wiktionary is not a WP:Reliable source and it should not be used for anything in this article. The current lead sentence of this article is also clearer than the Wiktionary definition.

Yes, educational sources can be used as sources in the article, including for human behavior; there is no guideline or policy against such use. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 07:50, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

Good. However, if "onset of puberty" is given, shouldn't we also indicate how to recognize onset of puberty? One of the mentioned sources provides Thelarche, or the growing of breasts, as the onset of puberty in girls. So why not explicitly mention that, to give the number meaning?

Secondly, I would then suggest a line in the introduction of the article saying something like "For information about behavioral changes that occur through the hormonal changes in puberty, see Adolescence".FreieFF (talk) 10:35, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

I don't follow what you mean about "how to recognize onset of puberty." We have a "Puberty onset" section and the "Effects of early and late puberty onset" and "Girls" and "Boys" subsections within it.

Regarding your suggested line about adolescence, we shouldn't point readers to other articles like that. We use disambiguation hatnotes; see WP:DABLINK. But we don't use them for what you have proposed. What you have proposed is not needed. We already mention adolescence in the lead. It may also be briefly mentioned lower in the article because a source is speaking of it with regard to puberty, but there's no need for a WP:Self reference in the lead telling readers to look at the Adolescence article. Also, consider taking some time to read WP:Self reference. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 04:34, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Most sources, including tanner staging charts, list the average end of puberty as 14-15 for females and 15-16 for males. The listed end ages on this page (15-17 and 16-17) may need to be revised slightly downward. JigJones27 (talk) 04:50, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

The pubertal end age (as well as the beginning age) has been discussed extensively on this talk page. The most recent discussion on the matter was the following Talk:Puberty/Archive 2#Puberty ages. What WP:Reliable sources or evidence do you have for your "most sources" claim? Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:55, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

I’m not really sure how talk pages work as far as how to format links and references so I apologize, but a few sources are the American Academy or Family Physicians (familydoctor.org), the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (girlshealth.gov), and the Global Library of Women’s Medicine (glowm.com). JigJones27 (talk) 05:43, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

And that's not "most sources" or text stating "most sources." Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 06:43, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

How many professional sources saying the same thing would you require in order to consider accurate information on the page to be important? JigJones27 (talk) 03:00, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

Our definition of accurate is based on what reliable sources state and WP:Due weight. WP:Due weight exists in part to ensure that we don't go with the sources we prefer and prioritize what they state over what other sources state, especially in cases where the sources lean toward one aspect (or aspects) more than the other. WP:Verifiability states, "If reliable sources disagree, then maintain a neutral point of view and present what the various sources say, giving each side its due weight." Right now, the article reflects the typical ages given in different sources. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 05:38, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

The National Health Service in the UK states the average starting age for girls is 11, 12 for boys, and that the process can take up to 4 years, which corresponds with a MAXIMUM average end age 15 for girls, 16 for boys. (nhs.uk)

Healthline.com states girls usually reach adult height by 14-15, males by 16.

Dukehealth.org states the average starting age for girls is 10.5, average age for boys is 11.5-12, and that the entire process should take a total of 3-4 years. That corresponds to an average end age of around 14 for girls and 15-16 for boys.

If multiple credible medical and health organizations say the average age for females to finish puberty is “around 14”, then a 15-17 range most certainly does NOT present what the various sources say. In fact, outside of one citation in this article I cannot find a single reliable source that would concur with the 15-17 range listed. At a minimum, 14-16 for females and 15-17 for males would be a more accurate presentation of what the “various sources say”. JigJones27 (talk) 20:49, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

You should also look at academic sources. You are only looking at online website sources, which is flawed for reasons similar to an editor currently arguing at Talk:Sex reassignment surgery about what websites state. And if looking at website sources, there's this "Puberty and adolescence" source from MedlinePlus, which used to be used in the article. It states, "In girls, puberty is usually finished by age 17." This Palo Alto Medical Foundation source, that also used to be used in the article, states, "For girls, puberty begins around 10 or 11 years of age and ends around age 16. Boys enter puberty later than girls-usually around 12 years of age-and it lasts until around age 16 or 17." This Johns Hopkins School of Medicine source clearly gives the range for when girls may start menstrual periods as 10 to 16.5 years old.

If we look at academic sources that speak on the age range, we can see sources like this 2014 "Medical-Surgical Nursing - E-Book: Concepts & Practice" source, from Elsevier Health Sciences, page 882, which states, "[Puberty] usually occurs between ages 9 and 17 years for girls, with the average onset being 12 years of age." This 2016 "Chronic Diseases: An Encyclopedia of Causes, Effects, and Treatments [2 volumes]" source, from ABC-CLIO, page 17, states, "Puberty for a girl is usually finished by age 17." It also discusses how trying to define the age range for adolescence isn't necessarily as easy as it seems. This 2014 "Developmental Psychology" source, from Macmillan Publishers, page 54, states, "A major growth spurt happens in puberty, with puberty typically lasting between four to five years. [...] The first sign of puberty in girls is breast buds, which can start anywhere between 8-14 but will typically start around 11, and periods following two years after breast buds start. Girls typically start their growth spurt early in puberty and will have done a lot of growing by the time their periods have started. They usually finish growing about the age of 15. The growth spurt happens much later for boys, usually around the age of 14, and their final height is not reached until age 17 or later." This 2019 "Developmental Psychology For The Health Care Professions: Part 1: Prenatal Through Adolescent Development" source, from Routledge, page 101, states, "Usually females begin their growth spurt at age 11 and have completed puberty by age 16, although completing puberty as late as age 21 is not considered abnormal in adolescent females." I don't agree with the source on that "not abnormal" assertion. Or rather I would state that a human female not completing puberty until age 21 is atypical. The source also states, "Males tend to begin growth spurts at age 13 and finish by age 19, but some males may not reach complete adult height until age 25." I also think this source is off on its assertion about adult male height. It cites a 1970s source for the "until 25" claim.

So, yeah, when I'm seeing various sources give age 17 (especially for boys) for the end of puberty, it makes sense to mention it even though age 17 is the least common for the end of a girl's puberty. I don't see any reliable sources calling "17" rare or atypical. Keep in mind that there are sources that state "age 8" for when a girl begins puberty, but because age 10 is given as the standard beginning age so often, it's best that we begin with that and omit age 8 (unless mentioning lower in the article, past the lead, that girls may also enter puberty at age 8). I've focused more on girls in this post because I think you have more of an issue with the 17 number being given for girls.

As has also been discussed at this talk page before, the "end of puberty" matter is also complicated by the growth spurt. This is because some sources count it as being a part of puberty (except for when speaking of the growth spurt extending past puberty) and others don't. The adult height aspect is often considered distinct from puberty, which is why you see sources I listed above speaking of adult male height the way they do. Similarly, a man may not be able to grow facial hair until his early 20s, but this does not mean that he is still going through puberty. Having age 17 in the article for both girls and boys helps to cover the "age 17" aspect that some sources give and avoid editors fighting over wanting to have the girl pubertal age range end at 14, 15 or 16 and wanting the boy pubertal age range to end at 16. And either way, I don't see that academic sources commonly state that boys complete puberty at age 15. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:00, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

You are confusing overall end range with an average. Girls generally finish puberty by 17 AT THE LATEST. Similar how they generally reach menarche by age 16 at the latest. The average age of menarche is around 12.5, not 16. The average age to end puberty is 14-15, not 15-17. Outliers are the exception, not the rule. And using academic articles over professional medical experts who actually work in the field makes almost no sense whatsoever. And admitting that 17 is the “least common” while 14 is very common, but still refusing to include 14 in the article, is simply letting your pride get in the way of accurate information. Wikipedia should be better. JigJones27 (talk) 17:55, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

I'm not confusing anything. This has nothing to do with pride. The sources state what they state. And I'm not going to sit here and list more. You keep making broad or generalized statements like "14 is very common" while providing no sources that support your broad or generalized statements. For reasons I stated above, things like "girls usually reach adult height by 14-15, males by 16" are not the same thing as stating that puberty ends by those ages. And sources giving ranges and stating things like "can" are not the same thing as sources stating "usually," "typically" or "on average." And nowhere have I "refus[ed] to include 14 in the article." And as for your statement that "using academic articles over professional medical experts who actually work in the field makes almost no sense whatsoever", I suggest you read WP:PSTS, WP:SCHOLARSHIP, WP:MED, and all of that recent Talk:Sex reassignment surgery move discussion I pointed you to. Academic sources are also written by professional medical experts who actually work in the field, although some sources are more relevant than others depending on the matter at hand. The topic of puberty is not relevant to just one field. And it is not like you know who put the material up on those sites; Healthline is not solely written by people who are experts on puberty matters or endocrinology. I have nothing else to state on this matter at this time. I will ignore further comments from you on this in this section. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:19, 11 January 2020 (UTC) Updated post. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 00:42, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

For me, the page comes across as if children are puberty more and more often these days. It says that compared to the 19th century, children are entering puberty more and more, because the average age at which children reach puberty is 10-12 years on average in the 21st century and 15-16 years in the 19th century. I read on the Internet that today children do NOT puberty more and more, since independent research has proven the opposite: In the Middle Ages, puberty started at the age of 10-12 years. But because of the industrial revolution, children later entered puberty. Now the average age at which children reach puberty is moving towards the average age of the Middle Ages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rexvanderheide (talk • contribs) 13:12, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

Did you fix it? SmartyParty6556 (talk) 13:23, 21 May 2020 (UTC)