Talk:Renewable energy/Archive 2

Eight square meters?!

In a section detailing how much area would have to be devoted to solar panals in order power Europe, the article states:

"In cloudy Europe this would require about eight square meters"

I am no expert but this is impossible, or at the very least badly written. I haven't edited the article itself because I don't know the right number or where to get it.

I've just re-read it (it isn't my addition, but I've seen it before) and IMHO it's very clear in context that it's referring to 8 sq m per person. Are most people happy that that reading is clear? --Nigelj 20:33, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

"decimated" is the wrong word

It is a small point but in the article it states that: "a serious problem in the Pacific Northwest that has decimated the numbers of many salmon populations".... and as we all know, to decimate means to reduce by a factor of ten, as in there were 100 fish but now there are 90; I am not sure what word to replace it with, "seriously damaged" ?

What happened to nuclear?

There used to be a section in the article discussing nuclear power and the debate over whether it's "renewable", which I thought was an acceptable compromise over the Great Talk Page Debate. I don't have time to read through all the history right this second, but I will later. I guess it's been removed, but it really needs to be put back in. Completely removing it from the page is not consensus or compromise. — Omegatron 20:21, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes it is, Omegatron, and factually accurate to do so too. If there were articles called Energy sources that do not directly produce greenhouse gasses or Energy sources where we reckon there's loads of fuel yet to be mined (and to hell with the waste), then all of the ones discussed here and nuclear could go into them. But there isn't, and this article is about Renewable energy, which present-day nuclear technology is not. Nuclear fuel put into a power station and run to deliver energy is irreversibly altered, and, within the expected lifetime of our civilisation, let alone a year or so, it will not renew itself or revert to its original form either by itself, or under the influence of normal sunlight. That's what the word means. Re-new-able. Wrong article. Sorry. ;-) --Nigelj 21:42, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I have been away from this for a while. I thought the agreement was that the exclusion of nuclear was arbitrary, that is, just part of the definition of renewable as most people use it. By the current definition, geothermal is not renewable. In the ultimate sense, solar is not because the sun is burning up its hydrogen. I thought that there was mentions of the serious problems with renewables, such as the millions of people killed from air pollution from burning shit and other biomass. This article needs some POV attention. pstudier 22:19, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I have also been away from this for a while, and see that the POV pushers have been acting in our absence. Yes, that was the basic agreement/consensus. It at least deserves to be mentioned.

(And don't forget the thousands of people killed by hydro dam collapses.) — Omegatron 00:14, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

The oil, coal, uranium, thorium in the Earth's crust is finite. When it's gone, it's gone. But the same is true about geothermal energy, as well as the light from the Sun and all the terrestrial processes it powers. The article should be more upfront about this. Including a brief but accurate definition of what is meant by 'renewable energy' in the first few sentences would satisfy me. -- 18.252.6.246 13:42, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

The first sentence talks accurately and clearly about "on-going natural processes" and the opening para says these things are "replaced rapidly" (which means with a year or so, as I said above). This article is also not about energy sources that are eternal in some biblical sense, so there's no point in bringing the end-of-the-world into it. I've read in a few places recently the theory that one effect of biblical literalism on many Americans is that they will not consider long-term energy and environmental issues as they're all convinced that their second coming is just around the next corner. That view is not relevant here either. The opening section clearly reflects the recent concensus, with the second para beginning by noting that "geothermal and tidal power" do not "ultimately come from the sun" (the earth and mostly the moon respectively). I would rather see geothermal removed, or sectioned off with provisos, than nuclear added. To me, the word 're-new-able' is as clear as it can get. --Nigelj 22:15, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

We've been through it all before. See the debate. The consensus of the debate was to include a section in this article explaining that some consider nuclear to be renewable because it's better for the environment and would serve as a viable source of energy for just as long as the alternatives. We're not going to debate this again. — Omegatron 23:34, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

From Nigelj's edit summary: (What happened to nuclear? - Oh no, not the religious right.) Who are you talking about here? I am an atheist libertarian and Omegatron's user page indicates that he is a Weak atheist and is Generally liberal. The skeptics of "Green" energy care as much about the earth as the Greens. pstudier 01:01, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes. I wasn't going to respond to that besides my edit summary, but I guess I will.  :-)

Believe it or not, some of us environmentalists think that nuclear energy is a superior choice to other "renewable" "environmentally-friendly" choices like hydro (clear-cutting and flooding acres of land with an alkali lake and threatening the lives of thousands of people when the dam collapses), solar (killing acres of vegetation by blocking the light with solar panels that will all have to be replaced in a few decades and involve toxic chemical manufacturing processes), etc. I'm not completely convinced or fanatical about it (no one with an open mind ever should be completely convinced of anything), but with all the research I've done, all of the choices have significant drawbacks, and nuclear seems to be the best of them, from an environmentalist perspective, anyway.

But this is not relevant to the article, so let's not start a debate again. The only thing that concerns the article is that some consider nuclear to be "renewable", or at least a superior alternative, and there was a consensus from the previous Debate to have a paragraph in this article explaining this. It needs to go back in. — Omegatron 15:12, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Removed: Others see such an interpretation as an inaccurate usage of the word depletion because the overall supply of geothermal energy on Earth, and its source, remain nearly constant. Geothermal energy depends on local geological instability, which, by definition, is unpredictable, and might stabilise. The present consumption of geothermal energy does not in any way threaten or diminish the quality of life for future generations, consequently, it is considered a renewable energy source. If there is less in a particular area, then that area is depleted, and there is less available for future generations. If one uses it faster than it flows from the center of the earth, then it is no different than burning coal faster than it accumulates. pstudier 03:07, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Although geothermal sites are capable of providing heat for many decades, eventually specific locations cool down.

Do they cool down naturally or do they cool down because of humans tapping them for energy? — Omegatron 20:06, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

There is an ulimited amount down there. You need to wait a certain amount of time for the energy to recollect (as by human tapping into it the energy potential drops). There is an unlimited supply tho you just need to wait it to build up. --Cat out 20:09, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

It is certainly not an unlimited amount. There is no geothermal energy on the moon, for instance. I'd like to see some reliable references on the amount human power plants can affect the local amount of energy, and at what rate it "recollects". — Omegatron 21:13, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

The geology on the Moon is very different. For a start, it seems as if it was knocked off the Earth leaving the heavy (radioactive) elements behind. Without water and the carbon cycle, there is no plate tectonics. Some geothermal energy on Earth is caused by friction at plate boundaries. Look at the energy in a Tsunami and you'll get some idea of the energy available. Stephen B Streater 21:32, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Nuclear is not renewable. It is not even carbon neutral if you look at all the energy taken for mining, purification, building the power station, transport and processing. But the way to solve this is to find some citations. As for geothermal, this comes from the heat from the Earth - it will last for millions of years. Stephen B Streater 20:36, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Technically, geothermal is a form of nuclear, as the Earth is heated by radioactive decay of uranium...  ;-) — Omegatron 21:13, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes - but also by the gravitational energy released when he Earth formed. The Sun could have lasted this long without any nuclear reactions simply because of the gravitational energy released. Solar and wind are nuclear too - but the timescale of the Sun dying is long enough to ignore. Just as tidal power will make the Moon drift off eventually. Perhaps I'll look for a cite on renewable - preferably not from the nuclear industry ;-) Stephen B Streater 21:32, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I would guess that the energy is all from nuclear decay at this point. As I pointed out above, the moon was formed much later than the Earth, and the accretion energy has already been dissipated; the only geological activity on the moon is due to the gravitational force of the Earth, no? Sun-generated energy (solar and wind) is fusion, which we can't do in a power plant. Earth-generated energy is fission, which we can do. From my perspective, they can be seen in a pretty similar light:

Geothermal

• Draws energy from the natural radioactive decay of uranium and the like
• Creates radioactive waste (buried deep under the Earth's crust)
• Can be used to create power for millions of years
• Releases very little carbon dioxide or radioactivity into the atmosphere (especially compared to fossil fuels)
• Construction of power plants causes pollution

Nuclear

• Draws energy from the induced radioactive decay of uranium and the like
• Creates radioactive waste (buried deep under the Earth's crust)
• Can be used to create power for millions of years
• Releases very little carbon dioxide or radioactivity into the atmosphere (especially compared to fossil fuels)
• Construction of power plants causes pollution

Yet one is renewable and the other isn't? It seems pretty arbitrary to me. One is renewable because it has a root word that means "Earth", and the other is not renewable because it reminds people of Hiroshima? — Omegatron 01:37, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

A link from the geothermal article evaluates a 40 year old geothermal field and estimates that it can produce power beyond 2050. They have to keep drilling new wells to maintain this. Sounds like mining ground heat more than renewable to me. Geothermal also releases radioactivity, but I don't have a source handy for this.

I thought the great nuclear debate ended with the conclusion that exclusion of nuclear was arbitrary because historically nuclear was not considered "renewable". That language has been lost from the article. pstudier 20:51, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I'd heard that we only had enough nuclear (ie fission) fuel to last a few hundred years, even with current limited usage. And the waste is not buried deep within the Earth, but a few miles down in the Earth's crust, where it could easily reach the water table or surface in a few thousand years. Stephen B Streater 20:59, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

There is about 4 billion tons of uranium in the ocean, and more is continually being added by the rivers eroding the continents. It will last far longer than geothermal. The pollution effects of a power source is not a criteria for being renewable. For example, many people die from indoor air pollution from burning biomass, but it is still considered renewable. pstudier 23:17, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

The uranium in the ocean is too dilute to extract for fission. Purifying it would take more energy than the fission would produce. Stephen B Streater 17:47, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I thought the great nuclear debate ended with the conclusion that exclusion of nuclear was arbitrary because historically nuclear was not considered "renewable". That language has been lost from the article.

That's exactly right. That's why I started this section.

I'd heard that we only had enough nuclear (ie fission) fuel to last a few hundred years, even with current limited usage.

And yet, the Earth, which is also powered by nuclear energy, will continue being powered for millions of years? Think about it for a second.

That's because the radioactive elements in the Earth's core are (as far as we know) impossible to extract as they are thousands of miles down. The crust is made of lighter elements and contain relatively little uranium. So we can use up the concentrated uranium in the crust while the core bubbles away for millions of years. Stephen B Streater 17:47, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

It's also worth mentioning that the half life of uranium 238 is quite long, so it lasts billions of years in the Earth's core. However, the same uranium in a nuclear reactor is bombarded with neutrons to break it up, and might last only a few weeks. Your argument is like asking why coal that lasts millions of years underground, only lasts a few hundred in a power station. Stephen B Streater

I'm interested in where you heard that, actually, because I've heard it repeated again and again. You're thinking of the amount of uranium we can mine with current production costs; not current usage. In other words, after we used up all of the easy-to-reach uranium, we'd have to spend a little more to dig deeper for harder-to-reach uranium, and then a little more after that, etc. But there's plenty around. For instance, if we absorb it from seawater, we can supposedly get enough to run our society for millions of years.

See above. Extracting uranium from seawater is much less effective than renewable energy solutions like wave power. Stephen B Streater 17:47, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

And the waste is not buried deep within the Earth, but a few miles down

How is that not deep?

A few miles down is not deep in the context of nuclear waste burial because it can get out into the water table and pollute the environment we live in. Stephen B Streater 17:47, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

For example, many people die from indoor air pollution from burning biomass, but it is still considered renewable.

But! .... But! Nuclear energy eats babies! — Omegatron 13:33, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Biomass is renewable because you can grow a new lot each year. It's nothing to do with pollution. Stephen B Streater 17:47, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

"We've been through it all before. See the debate.... We're not going to debate this again. — Omegatron 23:34, 28 April 2006 (UTC)" Sigh... if only you'd stuck to your guns.  :) Gnixon 14:33, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I know, I know. I keep saying that, but then I can't resist responding.  :-) Too bad they refuse to read what's already been said. None of these newcomers' ideas are actually new, they've already been discussed in the archive. — Omegatron 14:47, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

External links

This section is nearly beyond the Wikipedia:Spam Event Horizon. Here's what I removed and why:

• Renewable Solutions By: Andrew Curtright—POV: "I have created this web page to inform the public on what needs to be done ..."
• Technology turns greenhouse gas emissions to clean air biofuels—Dead link
• Renewable Energy Projects and Daily News, Alternative Energy News, Green Progress—How many news sites do we need?
• European Union website about renewable energy—Duplicate of another link
• Centre for Alternative Energy (European)—"Your shopping cart is empty"
• An Appropriate Technology Future—Political screed
• Ethanol related information—Belongs on ethanol fuel
• Offshorewind.net—Belongs on wind energy

That's it for now, a number of others can go. Remember, WP:NOT a link directory! —johndburger 03:10, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I removed the following links:

• SolarDrome Renewable Energy from Around the Web-A blog
• Green Wiki-www.greenpowered.org is now a gateway to a porn site
• The wide world of renewable energy-A blog
• Energyorbit :: Towards Sustainable Power and Renewable Energy-Another blog

Also I changed the URL for www.world-council-for-renewable-energy.org to the page it redirects to.

These were only the more obvious bad links, there's still more that can go. --SeanMD 16:20, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Woohoo, great job on the link spam, everyone! —johndburger 02:02, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

"Alternative Energy"

Whoa, it seems you guys have been having a nice long discussion to see if nuclear power is renewable or sustainable. That's great. Let me know what you decide. However, I'm sure we can ALL agree that nuclear power is an "alternative energy", since this phrase originates as an 'alternative to fossil fuels'. However, when I look up "alternative energy" in wikipedia, it redirects me to "renewable energy", where there is nothing about nuclear energy. This is not right. Therefore, I propose we need to do one of three things to fix this:

1. Define nuclear energy as renewable and include it in this page.

2. Delete the redirection of "alternative energy" to "renewable energy".

3. Create an "alternative energy" page and have renewable energy into one section, and have nuclear energy in a different section. Ajnosek 21:11, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Maybe have a look at Alternative society for some background to this terminology. --Nigelj 18:22, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, it seems there is disagreement on the origins of this word too, which I didn't realize. I looked up in dictionaries to see how they defined "alternative energy", and I was able to find some definitions which did include nuclear power, some that didn't, and some that didn't specify one way or another. Ajnosek 08:48, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++===

Whoa, yourself -

Nuclear energy is NOT renewable, since it depends upon the fission of uranium, an element obtained from a natural ore of which the supply is fixed and finite. Moreover, this process produces radioactive wastes for which no one has proposed an acceptable method of disposal.

These kinds of arguments can be avoided on ALL topics if the many contributors will only CAREFULLY DEFINE TERMS at the outset. Unless this is soon done in Wikipedia, the result will be pointless articles of infinite length, a trend already quite evident and growing worse every day !!

I agree we need to have terms defined, but much of this is a dialogue to do just that (who else do you expect to define the terms?).

Also, I wasn't trying to get into the debate about "is nuclear power renewable?", but if you see the debate above, the term "renewable" is one of the terms these contributors were trying to define. Addressing your issues above, uranium is not fixed and finite like you may think it is (it decays as time passes, and it can be produced in breeder reactors from thorium). Also, not producing byproducts is not a good definition of renewable (there is some nasty stuff that goes into the semiconductors for photovoltaics, like arsenic). Furthermore, "acceptable method of disposal" is POV. Even in the United States, there is ongoing nuclear waste disposal for research reactors and weapons programs at the WIPP facility. Also, don't forget about Oklo.

Clearly you can see that these definitions are not so intuitive after all. I would think defining the word "renewables" as being exclusive from "nuclear power" would be fine from just a historical basis because many people don't associate nuclear power with renewables. However, then again, that justification doesn't seem to hold weight because Asia supposedly isn't a continent, Earth has 5 oceans not 4, and Pluto is no longer a planet. Ajnosek 08:48, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Nuclear power is still non-renewable, even with breeder technology. It is a mainstay in many developed countries, so does not fit the 'alternative' label. If you want to label it 'non-GHG emission power source', that would satisfy the thrust you seem to be making. Trying to make it 'renewable' or 'alternative' is like trying to force a round peg in a square hole. Skyemoor 10:11, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

We've been through this a million times before, and there is no reason why nuclear can't be considered renewable by the same criteria as other technologies. Whether you personally think it is renewable or not is irrelevant to the fact that it needs to be included in the article. — Omegatron 13:34, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, I just went back and read most of "the great nuclear debate". I may be opening up a can of worms here, but let me put my take into it. It seems that no one disputes the webster definition of the word, and many in the great nuclear debate (GND) seem like it:

Main Entry: re·new·able

Pronunciation: -'nü-&-b&l, -'nyü-

Function: adjective

Date: 1727

1. capable of being renewed <renewable contracts>

2. capable of being replaced by natural ecological cycles or sound management practices <renewable resources>

Nuclear fissile material "being replaced by natural ecological cycles or sound management practices" sounds exactly what the closed nuclear fuel cycle and the use of breeder reactors are. In fact, to meet the criteria of being a breeder reactor, the reactor must create more fissile material than it consumes. In other words, fissile material can be replenished from fertile material.

I agree it is not common to associate nuclear power as a renewable. However, given the information above, and the fact that even the President of the United States refers to nuclear power as "renewable", it does not seem unreasonable to me that someone who comes to read this article may wonder why nuclear power is not considered a renewable. I do not know if I have an answer, however, and I do not feel it is an unreasonable question to ask. Therefore I believe that why nuclear power is not considered a renewable energy should be addressed in the article. If it is because we are narrowing the definition of "renewable" to exclude "sound management practices", the article should say that. If it is because "renewables" is coined to arbitrarily exclude nuclear power in the 1970s, the article should say that. However, both of these would require disagreeing with the Webster definition (and that disagreement should also be stated, since that is significant).

Also, I can see some in the debate are trying to exclude nuclear power because it is unnatural. This is moot, because not only does the original definition include more than just natural events ("sound management practices"), nuclear fission is natural. Not only is spontaneous fission naturally found, but sustained nuclear chain reactions (such as that found in a nuclear reactor) has also been observed to occur naturally at Oklo (which is also known as a "natural nuclear reactor": http://www.ocrwm.doe.gov/factsheets/doeymp0010.shtml). - Ajnosek 22:00, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Breeder reactors still require fuel to run, whether U-238 or Thorium. True, they convert it to Plutonium, but aside from the fact that Plutonium runs the risk of nuclear proliferation, it would be used up when it then undergoes fission. So the claim to renewability is unwarranted. Skyemoor 00:36, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. The fissile material is the fuel, it is the energy source. It is replenished by the fertile material. If your argument is that the material that "replenishes the energy source" is finite and therefore is not renewable, well then I could say the same thing about solar energy. In the case of solar energy, the material that replenishes the energy source sunlight is hydrogen, which is finite in the sun. I'm sure the amount of hydrogen in the sun is a rediculously large number, but note, we also have entire mountain ranges chuck full of thorium. Anyways, how much thorium and hydrogen we have is moot because of two reasons: First of all, by the definition of renewable from Webster, there is no stipulation that says "the material which replenishes the energy source also has to be replaceable"...instead it only says the energy source must be "capable of being replaced" (which it can be); and two, fertile material can also be replaced from other actinides anyways (in much the same way fissile fuel can be replenished from fertile material).

Besides, even if I did agree with you, I would still feel the article will be incomplete unless we explained why nuclear power is not renewable. Also, proliferation issues have nothing to do with the classification of what is "renewable". - Ajnosek 07:38, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Um, guys, what matters is not whether you or I think that nuclear power is a form of renewable energy or not; what matters is how the term is used. In virtually every context I've come across, "renewables" and "nuclear energy" are treated separately. Yes, there are plenty of people who argue that nuclear energy is sustainable indefinitely (I happen to be one of them), and that it is an environmentally sustainable energy source (I think that too). But that's not the issue here. --Robert Merkel 06:13, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I am fine with that, but then I believe that should then be stated then in the article because:

1. Some do call nuclear power renewable. (aka president bush, evidentally)

2. Nuclear power fits the traditional definition of the word renewable, as defined by webster's. - Ajnosek 07:38, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

If Thorium and U-238 are converted to Plutonium, which is then consumed to create heat, where is the renewability? All you are talking about is changing the atomic state before consumption. That's like saying gasoline is renewable, because it was converted from petroleum. And yes, the sun will eventually go into a planetary nebula phase roughly 5 billion years from now, but then life on Earth would have been destroyed in the process, so solar power and all others indirectly derived from ongoing natural processes (i.e. wind, hydro, tidal, wave, geothermal, OTEC) are indeed renewable. And this doesn't even touch on the (radioactive) pollution caused by consumption of fuel.

Ajnosek has a point - GWB (whether you like it or not, an important figure) has called nuclear power renewable, and there are plenty of arguments to suggest that the fuel reserves are enough to sustain it for a very, very long time. So to obliterate any mention of nuclear power in this context would also be inappropriate. --Robert Merkel 12:03, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Whether or not GWB calls it renewable is irrelevant (Does Clinton or Carter call it renewable?) Let's see the sources for the reserve estimates ("lots and lots" won't suffice), the level of consumption assumptions, the technique involved, the efficiency assumptions of the technique, and the range of date of peak production based on the range of assumptions. And tell us what will be done with the highly radioactive waste. Skyemoor 13:16, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Skyemoor here. Besides, it would introduce a lot of confusion, as practically nobody in the technical/scientific community groups nuclear in the same category as wind, solar, etc. Jens Nielsen 18:27, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

'Renewable' isn't really a very helpful word, is it? Maybe we ought to consider each form of energy separately and think what word would encapsulate its particular characteristics. For example, solar and geothermal could be described as 'everlasting' (from a terrestrial point of view), since the earth will get swallowed up by the sun in its red giant phase quite a long time before the sun stops producing energy, and geothermal will only have reduced by a relatively small factor when the earth vaporises since the half-life of the Uranium that sustains it is broadly comparable to the expected lifetime of a G-type star like the sun. Biomass could be labelled as 'recyclable'. Nuclear and FF could be described as 'exhaustable', 'limited' or 'finite' (as they often are) - or their life expectancies could be mentioned explicitly (although those estimates would of course change as our understanding grew). 'Inexhaustable' wouldn't be a very good word to apply to anything because, for example, wind would appear to qualify, and yet, although there are always more winds next day, there is in fact a finite amount of energy that can be extracted on any particular day. The thing is that when I renew my subscription to a magazine all I intend to convey is that I wish to continue receiving it and that I will continue to pay for it. If, on the other hand, I attack a problem with renewed vigour it indicates that I increase my vigour. If a renew a friendship I am re-establishing something that has lapsed. 'Renew' can mean so many things that its use in a discusion of sources of energy doesn't usefully convey anything unless it's carefully defined: and there's no chance at all of getting that definition into the public consciousness. Tony Ayres 0:00 8 September 2006 (UTC)

"there is in fact a finite amount of energy that can be extracted on any particular day". Let's not confuse inexhaustible with infinite. Wind may have production 'bounds', but you can't exhaust the supply, because it will blow (be renewed) the next day. Skyemoor 00:45, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Geothermal is not "everlasting". You can only run it for a while (few decades?) before using up all the heat in that area. — Omegatron 11:41, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Citation to support the above assertion? Skyemoor 18:47, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Geothermal power#Heat depletion Paul Studier 20:42, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

"However, the natural heat flow of the earth largely from radioactive decay does replenish the heat lost in geothermal heat mining." from your reference. Skyemoor 01:00, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, just as oil is renewed, but on a very long time scale. If you extract anything faster that it is replenished, then you are mining something that is not renewable. Just like cutting down trees faster than they can grow back. Paul Studier 01:18, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

So steady state extraction of geothermal resources year around is feasible, though oil takes millions of years to form. As a forest can be harvested sustainably. Skyemoor 01:37, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Oil can be harvested sustainably, too, by the same logic. — Omegatron 18:45, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

At how many mmbd? Skyemoor 03:30, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

List of people who have called nuclear renewable (please add to it):

• George W. Bush (of course)
  • Not a reliable source on energy matters Stephen B Streater 12:57, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
• Lord Sainsbury of Turville, the UK's Science and Innovation Minister
• American Nuclear Society President Jim Tulenko
  • Not an independent source Stephen B Streater 12:57, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
• Chuck DeVore
• Marjorie Mazel Hecht, Managing Editor of 21st Century Science and Technology Magazine
• Duane Pendergast
• Gia Milinovich

Notable environmentalists who support nuclear power (if they ever called it renewable, move them to the above list):

• Hugh Montefiore, Friends of the Earth trustee
• Patrick Moore, cofounder of Greenpeace
• James Lovelock, originator of the Gaia hypothesis
• Norris McDonald, president of the African American Environmentalist Association
• Stewart Brand, founder of the Whole Earth Catalog
• Bruno Comby, president of Association of Environmentalists For Nuclear Energy

Others:

This list doesn't provide much in the way of a groundswell of scientists or even opinionmakers. This short list actually weakens your case. Skyemoor 03:29, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Groundswell? — Omegatron 19:36, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I'll rejoin this discussion because it needs some more input. First, renewable means that it doesn't get permanently used up. For reasons alluded to above, the Sun is treated as an infinite resource, so forms of energy powered by the Sun count as renewable eg solar and wind. But this excludes nuclear power, as the nuclear fuel as a whole goes through a one way sequence of changes which ends up with no fuel. Stephen B Streater 12:56, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

On the related issue, I accept that nuclear could be included in an alternative energy article, as it is not a fossil fuel. Stephen B Streater 12:56, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Criticism section

Yet another article with a Criticism section and a layout like this:

• Renewable energy
  • Types
    • Hydro
    • Biofuel
    • Solar
  • Criticism
    • Criticism of hydro
    • Criticism of biofuel
    • Criticism of solar

Please get rid of the Criticism section (unless it only contains criticism about the renewable concept itself), and move the criticism to where it belongs:

• Renewable energy
  • Types
    • Hydro (including criticism of hydro)
    • Biofuel (including criticism of biofuel)
    • Solar (including criticism of solar)

— Omegatron 19:32, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Fossil fuels

"Renewable energy sources are fundamentally different from fossil fuel or nuclear power plants because the Sun, Earth, or Moon will power these 'power plants' (meaning sunlight, the wind, flowing water, etc.) for billions of years. They also do not directly produce greenhouse gases and other emissions, as fossil fuel combustion does. Most do not introduce any global new risks such as nuclear waste."

1. Nuclear waste isn't being "introduced" to the earth; the nuclear material was already in the Earth, we just dug it up.
2. If renewables were deployed on the same power scale as nuclear or fossil fuels, they could also introduce "global risks". — Omegatron 19:49, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Re 1: I'm afraid you need to research nuclear fission a little more. The radioactive waste that is produced in a nuclear reactor includes fission products that are entirely new, unstable isotopes and elements. Many of these cannot be produced any other way than in the fissile chain reactions typical of nuclear reactors and bombs. Some of the stuff so produced has half-lives measured in thousands of years and most of it is highly radioactive and toxic. If any of these isotopes were ever present near the surface of the Earth in it's early years they have long-since decayed and so 'cooled' to the point of relative insignificance - then life evolved. There is nowhere on Earth you can dig this kind of stuff up, except perhaps where some government or private radioactive waste contractor has just buried it in the last few decades.

Re 2: So what's your point? Let's forget all this stuff about Global warming and pollution, because the solution 'could also introduce "global risks"'? So let's confuse WP's encylopedia readers by telling them that nuclear fission is environmentally safe and that you think solar power is risky? That nothing's 'renewable' if you think in terms of billions of years? That mass-market air travel and massive 4x4s on school runs are probably no more environmentally risky than wind power or wave generators?

You may feel that you're arguing some clever and subtle points, but I think in the main article we should not obscure the basic facts about the topic, as understood by the whole mainstream scientific community, with such extreme-minority or un-researched ideas. Sorry, but that's what I think. --Nigelj 22:09, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

1. Hmmm... I guess I'll have to research it a little more then. I'll read the article you pointed me to:

• Nuclear fuel: Uranium-235. Half-life: 7.038×10⁸ years.
• The longest-lived nuclear fission byproducts, according to Used_nuclear_fuel#Fission_products:
  • Iodine-129. Half-life: 1.57×10⁷ years.
  • Technetium-99. Half-life: 2.111×10⁵ years.
  • Strontium-90. Half-life: 30 years.
  • Caesium-137. Half-life: 30 years.
  • ...

So the dangerous, dangerous byproducts of nuclear fission are shorter-lived and less radioactive than the naturally-occurring materials that were mined to produce them? And yeah, this stuff's really, really toxic... if you eat it. But we all know how easy it is to accidentally eat things that are mixed with glass and buried a kilometer underground. Better be careful with those.

2. I could make equally offensive and uncivil accusations about your motives, but I'll hold my tongue. I'm here for the same reasons most editors are:

I want to write a great article that explains what "renewable energy" is, the motives behind it, and the ways that those motives can be achieved.

I'm probably a little biased, though: As a registered Green who eats granola bars for breakfast, I'm probably trying to subtly bias the article to further my cause; the minimization of human suffering and environmental destruction through the prevention of global warming and pollution of the natural environment. You caught me. I'd like to "confuse" Wikipedia's readers by explaining that the alternatives to fossil fuels all have significant drawbacks (flooding acres of vegetation with an dam that is prone to collapsing and killing thousands of people, choking acres of vegetation by covering them with solar panels that waste most of the sun's energy by turning it into heat,

You seem to forget the billions of rooftops, along with parking lots, roadways/highways, and other plentiful square footage that would not have such an impact. Skyemoor 12:02, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

destroying the natural circulation of beach and estuary environments by sucking all the energy out of naturally-occurring waves and ocean currents, killing birds,

Newer turbines have greatly increased blade size, which allows them to spin far slower; hence they are easily visible to migrating birds. But you would know that if you read the pertinent sections of WP. Skyemoor 12:02, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

stressing wildlife,

??

and modifying the course and intensity of naturally-occurring air currents with huge windmill farms)

Every building, especially multi-story building, and every disturbance of a forest's natural canopy, such as harvesting, partial clearing for suburbia/exurbia, etc, interrupts the "naturally-occurring air currents". Skyemoor 12:02, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

, and allow the readers to make their own decisions on which they want to support politically and monetarily.

As long as the material is not presented in a biased manner, as you have done above. Skyemoor 12:02, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

To put it another way: I know that burning coal (in America alone) dumps ~700 tonnes of uranium and ~1700 tonnes of thorium directly into my breathing air every year, 155 times the radioactivity released by the second worst nuclear power plant accident in the world, and I want to do something about it, instead of sitting around talking about how nice it would be if there were less people and we all lived in little villages powered by sunlight and farted daisies.

You are trying to convince people of your views. Inflammatory rhetoric greatly diminishes your chance of success. Skyemoor 12:02, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not yet convinced that nuclear power is the best solution to our looming problem (like the founders of Greenpeace and the Gaia Hypothesis), but I am convinced that most people who fight against it don't have a clue what they're talking about, and the more I read about it (like the half-lives of the byproducts that you inspired me to read about today) the better it sounds. As I do research for myself I usually write what I've learned in the Wikipedia for the benefit of others. Unfortunately, the people I mentioned love to bias articles like this and mislead our readers. Wikipedia is a great source for neutral, unbiased, accurate, up-to-date information on everything else. Why can't it be for energy?

(I know, I know. The word "nuclear" is in "nuclear bomb", and therefore using nuclear technology for purposes that might help the environment is automatically bad and anyone who suggests that it might be a good idea probably eats babies for breakfast. Or wait, isn't radioactivity responsible for giving people super powers? I can never keep track...) — Omegatron 00:42, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Again, you are greatly slanting the points you advocate, and ridiculing the stances of others. You've taken a bit of time to write the above, but due to the nature and style of your appeal, have unfortunately wasted your time and others. Skyemoor 12:02, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

You are trying to convince people of your views. Inflammatory rhetoric greatly diminishes your chance of success.

I was insulted and asked to explain my motivations. So I explained them. It's best to air one's motivations in the open to ensure that one is editing in a neutral way. This discussion has nothing to do with the dispute or the article, though, and can end now, if desired. — Omegatron 05:03, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I am truly sorry if you found my comments and questions uncivil: that really was not my intention, but if that's how I came across then I am really sorry. My question, "So what's your point?" was based on the fact that you had, up to that point, contributed over 1200 words to this talk page since it was last archived - probably more than any other single contributor. (It's nearly 1900 words now - over 13% of the Talk page). Many of your comments were critical of current renewable energy sources and technologies, and most of the rest are pushing very strongly for this article to focus on nuclear energy, at some point in its text. I honestly found it hard to understand, let alone agree with, this apparent bias. Anyway, thanks for looking into some of the techy details of fission products for all of us. Cheers. --Nigelj 13:10, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

There were a lot of others fighting for the same things before the archive. I imagine most just assumed that consensus had been reached and walked away to work on other things. But the consensus has since been sideswiped. Should I go spam their talk pages to get them to comment on this discussion page? I think that would generate more heat than light. — Omegatron 05:03, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I still think not everyone has all the relevant facts. The radioactivity given off by a reactor is dangerous because it is in the form of a wide range of elements which are absorbed into the human body. Radioactive caesium takes the place of calcium, and radioactive iodine is absorbed by the body and concentrated in a gland in the neck. Plutonium is one of the most poisonous chemicals around, independently of its radioactivity. This is very different from the much less radioactive Uranium. So, it's not good to have 700 tonnes of Uranium in the air, but a much smaller amount of Caesium given off by Chernobyl has meant that all the sheep in big swathes of Wales have been unfit for human consumption for years. Stephen B Streater 13:16, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Other points have more resonance with me - the effect of renewable energy on the environment. With the ever more extreme weather caused by global warming, a few offshore wind farms and wave power would not be obviously a bad thing. In the UK, we could provide a few percent of our electricity with tidal power from the Severn, but this would kill the wading birds there, so has not been allowed. Dams are now thought to produce so much methane in rotting flooded vegetation that they may have a worse greenhouse effect than burning fossil fuels. But wind energy in particular, which returns the energy invested in a few months, has a very small effect on the wind overall. Wind power available is of the order of 1000TW. So If we only have 1,000,000 1MW wind tubines, this would represent less than 0.1% of available wind energy. As a lot of wind energy is taken up hitting trees, the effect of wind turbines would be lost in the noise. Stephen B Streater 13:16, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Of course, those trees will need to be clearcut to install efficient turbines...

Not with modern turbines, where the blades start well above the tree height. Not that there are many trees in the sea. Stephen B Streater 08:16, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

But this is all besides the point. The point is that the section about nuclear needs to remain in the article. The POV template will remain until either:

1. the section is re-added
2. someone convinces us that George W. Bush is non-notable, or that the debate over the precise meaning of the term "renewable energy" is unimportant enough to mention in the article about renewable energy. — Omegatron 05:03, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

GWB is not a reliable source on this issue. You can argue until the cows come home, but what you need to do is find a reliable source on renewable energy (ie not a political or nuclear PR campaign) which supports your view. Until then, renewable will be exactly what it says - renewable (which nuclear is not):

• adjective (of energy or its source) not permanently depleted when used
• noun (usu. renewables) a source of energy that is not depleted by use, such as water, wind, or solar power. Stephen B Streater 08:16, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I imagine most just assumed that consensus had been reached and walked away to work on other things. -- I imagine that, since this is clearly a political and not a scientific viewpoint, the reality is that many of George W. Bush's other political supporters are starting to realise that some of his pronouncements are no longer tenable or defensible in the modern, real world.

I note that the section has been re-added, and the POV tag left in place anyway.--Nigelj 10:17, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

GWB is not a reliable source on this issue.

Correct. He is, however, a notable figure who has referred to nuclear power as "renewable" many times.

I imagine that, since this is clearly a political and not a scientific viewpoint, the reality is that many of George W. Bush's other political supporters are starting to realise that some of his pronouncements are no longer tenable or defensible in the modern, real world.

What? Who? I don't understand what you're referring to. Have you even read through the archives to understand what this dispute is about?

I note that the section has been re-added, and the POV tag left in place anyway.

The discussion is still taking place, and I have a feeling it will be reverted on sight without explanation in the near future. — Omegatron 12:11, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Nuclear section

The proposed nuclear section has so many errors, I propose we see if it is possible to fix it up here so it doesn't clutter up the article with an edit war.

What this article looks like to an outsider

There are major problems with this article. The biggest problem is the large number of unreferenced assertions. Also, the section on nuclear power confuses "renewable" with "environmentally friendly". And it uses "nuclear power" without making any distinction between fission (not renewable) and fusion (renewable but not yet practical). Also, an article titled "renewable energy" should contain a lot more information (e.g. at what level of use is hydroelectric power renewable) and a lot less opinion. This is not the place for a debate on the merits of one energy source or another. The debate over nuclear power should be moved to the article Nuclear power controversy. The entire section on "criticism" is inappropriate. The subject of the article is not a question of policy, subject to criticism, but of information. There might be a reason to include a section on "disinformation". Rick Norwood 13:11, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I've removed some repetition from the nuclear power section, but I think this section has to be a minimum size to make sense. The key points are:

• Traditional definition of renewable does not include nuclear
• Nuclear has some advantages over fossil fuels which mirror those of renewables: low CO₂ output and large long term potential fuel supply
• Some famous people (and the nuclear industry) like to think of nuclear as "renewable"
• Official view is that nuclear is not renewable
• Environmental dangers of nuclear vs alternatives

I'll look at ways of shortening the section, but it is well referenced now and I think the arguments it contains will not be fairly represented if these are lost. Stephen B Streater 21:18, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I also agree we should be adding cites to the other sections. Stephen B Streater 21:24, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

The Nuclear power controversy article has the relevant references duplicated in this article, so there would be no loss. Skyemoor 02:08, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

without making any distinction between fission (not renewable) and fusion (renewable but not yet practical)

By what logic is fission unrenewable but fusion renewable? They operate the same way. Very large fuel supply, but still depleted in use.

The entire section on "criticism" is inappropriate. The subject of the article is not a question of policy, subject to criticism, but of information.

Agreed wholeheartedly. Criticism of different types should be next to each type. There is no such thing as criticism of the concept of renewable; just disagreements about what exactly it means.

Nuclear has some advantages over fossil fuels which mirror those of renewables: low CO2 output and large long term potential fuel supply

1. Primary argument: Nuclear fuel has the potential to last as long as or longer than renewables, which are powered by the sun, moon, or earth.
2. Supplementary argument: Nuclear does not have a significant environmental impact, which is a typically-cited benefit of other renewables.

Official view is that nuclear is not renewable

Whose? I have yet to see any official definitions, either dictionary or policy, in the article. Just editors making unreferenced assertions of what they personally think it means. — Omegatron 17:00, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

The British Government. It has 10% renewable energy target by 2010 (this excludes nuclear). A cite is here. Stephen B Streater 22:25, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

As I already explained, your reference does not say "Britian's official definition of 'renewable' excludes nuclear". It says "nuclear is excluded from the Climate Change Levy". I'd love to see some official definitions in the article, but no one has come up with any. — Omegatron 12:43, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Proposed new structure

I have adapted the introduction and included a clearer definition of renewable energy. I appreciate that there are broader political and economic definitions of renewable energy which take into account invested energy, life-cycle analysis etc, but these are extraneous. The fact that renewable energy sources are not destroyed is the key criteria. I think this article is good but needs to be refined, it should point to other articles rather than duplicating them; information regarding renewable energy in popular culture, and its connection to environmentalism needs to be highlighted better. I can make these changes.

--Huggsy 09:25, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

The proposed new structure for this article is:

1. Introduction

2. List of renewable energy sources (links to other articles)

3. Renewable energy and the environmental movement (discussion piece)

4. Links

5. References

On the grounds that they are covered adequately elsewhere, I propose removing all the stuff about nuclear, historical usage other than what is relevant to the above, future scenarios, and specifics on types of renewable energy.

Please come back to me on these proposals and if you are willing to help put them in to practise.

--Huggsy 09:25, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

This looks broadly sensible to me. A section on the economics of renewable energy may be interesting too. Stephen B Streater 09:28, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Agree. Skyemoor 14:55, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for feedback - Streater can you write an economics section? --Huggsy 21:35, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

On the grounds that they are covered adequately elsewhere, I propose removing all the stuff about nuclear, historical usage other than what is relevant to the above, future scenarios, and specifics on types of renewable energy.

I don't like the sound of that. If you're going to remove things just to remove them, don't. If you're removing things because they're covered in other articles, you still need to leave a short summary here, and link to them with a {{main}} template or similar.

I agree that it needs a drastically redesigned layout; what is an Issues section, anyway? The article jumps haphazardly all over the place. — Omegatron 17:04, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Okay, well that reference you gave me is very instructive. The organization section promotes the idea of breaking long articles into sub-articles to make them concise and more searchable. I will make sure to move the information to the sub articles and leave a short summary here. --Huggsy 21:35, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Qualifications

• "timber and nuclear industries' advocate"
• "who owns a chain of grocery stores whose refrigeration units benefit from cheap power"
• etc.

Please stop adding these, Skyemoor. Read WP:NPOV if you don't understand how to edit neutrally. Putting "qualifications" next to the names of supporters is biased, especially since you're only adding them next to environmentalists and left-wingers. These make an implied value judgment of the speakers. Let the facts speak for themselves.

You choose to put qualifiers in front of individuals to attempt to influence readers in a particular direction. I'm simply balancing out your efforts with qualifiers also, as in "Fair and Balanced". Skyemoor 18:53, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

What qualifiers did I put to influence readers? Your qualifiers are not fair or balanced; they are trying to say that the only reason environmentalists or left-wingers would support nuclear power is if they had a personal economic interest in it. — Omegatron 12:43, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Detailed information about each person should be in their articles. In this article, either refer to them only by name, or give a few neutral, indifferent words of description of what they are most notable for (what they are noted for in the first sentence of their articles, for instance). "President of the United States George W. Bush"; not "President of the United States George W. Bush (who has ties to the evil nuclear industry)."

Show me where I put such terms. You are not being honest... Skyemoor 18:53, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

You didn't. I am illustrating the point from the opposite direction. — Omegatron 12:43, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

And it's redundant to say that someone who is a "nuclear advocate" supports nuclear; that's redundant. — Omegatron 18:39, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Nuclear energy debate

I see no good reason to have so much information regarding nuclear energy, and the nuclear energy debate, in this article. Nuclear is not a renewable energy in the current Wikipedia consensus, Ref. our own definition, and, current articles Sustainable energy, section 2, Nuclear power.

While I understand that there is a worthwhile argument going on about nuclear and that we need a section here that acknowledges that debate, it doesn't make sense to have it here in full when it is more relevant elsewhere, such as in the Nuclear power article.

Can we all agree? --Huggsy 21:45, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree. --Nigelj 22:27, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Concur. Skyemoor 00:37, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

OK that's some good consensus from recent active members. I will wait for more before making changes though. --Huggsy 05:10, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, with the proviso that it should be briefly mentioned that some opinion classes it as renewable, and that it is argued that the potential fuel resources for fission plants are extremely large. But it should be a small part of this article, not more than a few sentences. --Robert Merkel 06:55, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Of course not! Is every new visitor to this article going to try to delete the nuclear section?? I'm getting tired of this.

Ref. our own definition, and, current articles Sustainable energy, section 2, Nuclear power.

You can't say that nuclear is not renewable "by Wikipedia's definition". You can't cite Wikipedia articles from other Wikipedia articles. Wikipedia does not define terms. To do so would violate two of our three core principles. (You should become familiar with these. Please read Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:No original research.)

What we do instead, is report on what other people use as their definition, which has still not been done in this article. When there's a debate or disagreement about the definition, we report on that debate or disageement. We don't try to solve it. That would be original research. If the debate is notable, but only being debated by a few people, we say so.

Since this debate is about the meaning of the word "renewable", there is no better place for it than the article about "renewable energy". — Omegatron 12:43, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, many visitors to this page will continue to delete any positive reference to nuclear power. That's as predictable as the tides. What's more, some of them will do so in good faith, having read the Wikipedia standards and decided that there's nothing even debateably renewable about nuclear power, and that the article should reflect this in the interests of accuracy. Others will do so in ignorance, and please don't bite the newbies when they do. Still others will quite consciously try to use Wikipedia to promote their POV, which they see as far more important than any policies or ideals other Wikipedians may write or value. It's called saving the world. (;->

So get used to it is my only advice. Sorry if it seems a bit harsh.

Personally, I'm unconvinced that it's useful to talk of nuclear energy as renewable anyway. I think that the whole idea of renewable energy has had its day, and will increasingly be seen as an idealistic but impractical concept that has been very useful in raising public awareness and enthusiasm up until now, but has also done a lot of damage by avoiding the real issues. Its fallacy is that a renewable lifestyle (as defined by those who coined the term - but meanings do change with time) is neither sustainable in practice nor desirable to the postmodern generations. What's far more important is that nuclear is a sustainable energy source currently available in useful quantities, and is likely to remain the only one for some time. It's about as much of an option as TSO was in MVS. Showing my age there.

I hope that helps. Andrewa 15:35, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm, having reread that I think I've avoided the real issue myself. The problem for Wikipedia is that meanings do change over time. So what is the current meaning of renewable? Is it the version that GWB is promoting, or the older meaning? For me, that question is in the too-hard basket. If I'm right about the traditional meaning of renewable becoming less relevant, then either the term will change its meaning towards the GWB version, or it will become less used. The question is, where are we at now? And to make it even more difficult, the answer is probably different for different groups of English speakers. Lots of luck. Andrewa 15:57, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

It's not so much that the meanings have changed over time, but that the meanings were never clearly defined in the first place. Some consider nuclear to be renewable because it's effectively inexhaustible, some consider hydro to be non-renewable because of its environmental impact. Different people and organizations have different definitions, and all we can do is describe who they are and what their definitions are. We can find out which one is most commonly used and say that it is, but we can't declare one definition "correct" and exclude all others. — Omegatron 16:22, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Good points. It's amusing to me to reflect that hydro, nuke and (wait for it) oil were once almost universally considered to be environmentally benign. That's what the 16mm films we saw in primary school assumed, and nobody thought to question it 'way back then. Then came the Torey Canyon. Andrewa 17:00, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Nuclear power "cut-and-paste" work

I have courageously cut most of the detailed "nuclear power" debate and pasted it to the Sustainable energy article. The arguments were in any case mostly on sustainability. There I have opened also the issue of social and political sustainability, most relevant for nuclear power. Such issues hardly fit under this article. -- The ultimate argument for cut-and-paste job is that this article is very long, whereas the sustainable energy article is still of decent size. The chapter on nuclear here is far from final in wording & content, but this is about the right size for the topics here. MGTom 14:28, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

The parts about Cohen and Tulenko arguing that nuclear should be considered "renewable" belong in the article about "renewables"; not "sustainables". The parts about environmental impact or environmentalist support can be moved to other articles and linked to, but both of these people argue that nuclear should be considered renewable (not "sustainable"; "renewable") because it has the potential to last a similar amount of time as the traditional renewables. — Omegatron 16:12, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Tulenko is a vested interest, and as such has no bearing on what the definition of renewable is. Otherwise, we could have countless statements by any number of environmentalists that say it simply isn't so. This section needs to be dramatically reduced, down principally to pointers to Nuclear power controversy. Skyemoor 21:08, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Tulenko is the President of the American Nuclear Society (ANS), a not-for-profit, international, scientific and educational organization which got its beginnings from the National Academy of Sciences. His opinion is relavent. Ajnosek 18:30, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Types of Renewable Energy

This should settle the matter. The definition of renewable energy from the International Energy Agency; http://iea.org/Textbase/publications/free_new_Desc.asp?PUBS_ID=1596

Renewables include the following categories:

Combustible Renewables and Waste* (CRW):

Solid Biomass: Covers organic, non-fossil material of biological origin which

may be used as fuel for heat production or electricity generation.

Wood, Wood Waste, Other Solid Waste: Covers purpose-grown energy

crops (poplar, willow etc.), a multitude of woody materials generated by an

industrial process (wood/paper industry in particular) or provided directly

by forestry and agriculture (fi rewood, wood chips, bark, sawdust, shavings,

chips, black liquor etc.) as well as wastes such as straw, rice husks, nut shells,

poultry litter, crushed grape dregs etc.

Charcoal: Covers the solid residue of the destructive distillation and

pyrolysis of wood and other vegetal material.

Biogas: Gases composed principally of methane and carbon dioxide

produced by anaerobic digestion of biomass and combusted to produce

heat and/or power.

Liquid Biofuels: Bio-based liquid fuel from biomass transformation, mainly

used in transportation applications.

Municipal Waste (renewables): Municipal waste energy comprises wastes

produced by the residential, commercial and public services sectors and

incinerated in specifi c installations to produce heat and/or power. The

renewable energy portion is defi ned by the energy value of combusted

biodegradable material.

Hydro Power: Potential and kinetic energy of water converted into electricity in hydroelectric plants. It includes large as well as small hydro, regardless of the size of the plants.

Geothermal Energy: Energy available as heat emitted from within the earth’s crust, usually in the form of hot water or steam. It is exploited at suitable sites for electricity generation after transformation or directly as heat for district heating, agriculture, etc.

Solar Energy: Solar radiation exploited for hot water production and electricity generation. Does not account for passive solar energy for the direct heating, cooling and lighting of dwellings or other.

Wind Energy: Kinetic energy of wind exploited for electricity generation in wind turbines.

Tide/Wave/Ocean Energy: Mechanical energy derived from tidal movement, wave motion or ocean current and exploited for electricity generation.

Skyemoor 14:38, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

What "matter" does it "settle"? Very good work on finding an official definition, though. What other ones can we find? — Omegatron 16:18, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Definition of Renewable Energy

Here's the definition I found from an engineering textbook: "The term, "a renewable energy source" is used for energy flows which are replenished at the same rate they are used. The prime renewable energy source is solar radiation. Energy stores which are part of the natural process of converting solar energy into heat radiation are also considered renewable energy sources" Bent Sorensen, Renewable Energy, Elsevier 2004. --Huggsy 21:49, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Elsevier is a reliable source. It's interesting that it is not how slowly it is used up which matters, but that it is replenished. Stephen B Streater 19:18, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

There is a new section (if it remains supported by Wikipedians) on Renewable_energy_development#Statutory_definitions_of_renewable_energy. IMO the renewables definition battle is over prestige and vested interests that should finally result in favourable legislation, this is why statutory definitions matter. The proposed locality for such information is somewhat distant from the main titles, but that is where it fits. MGTom 09:40, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

MGTom, IMO The Renewable Energy Development article looks very much like the kind of article we should have here! --Huggsy 08:13, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I just joined this, but I tried to catch up by reading this page and the archived debate, and I still don't get it. You seem to be arguing about what "Renewable Energy" should be. Should is a POV. If "Renewable Energy" is a defined phrase, who has defined it? Has more than one person defined or group defined it? How do their definitions differ? If there is controversy, shouldn't it be front and center? My understanding is that a Wikipedia article doesn't try to decide what "Renewable Energy" should be, but to explain all the POV's, where they overlap, and where they differ. TRWBW 04:21, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

See Types of Renewable Energy above for a definition by the International Energy Agency. Skyemoor 10:55, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Reorder

Should the historical usage be the first section? This is a typical layout for an article. History first and then modern sources.

It says "Throughout history, various forms of renewable and non-renewable energies have been employed." Why mention non-renewable ones in this article?

Could also include more modern history, like the origin of the term and its original meaning. — Omegatron 01:40, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

No Mion 03:08, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

No what? — Omegatron 04:43, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

No, sir!!, if you want to keep the reader interested you cant start with the history, if its a long history section it makes the article unreadable, and is annoying for people who are not interested in the history at all, so at the bottom , or on a seperate page , sort of extra talkpage,  ? reg. Mion 09:51, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Couldn,t find it in the manual of style, / body section, maybe it depends on the subject ? reg. Mion 09:58, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I doubt there are any guidelines about it. It's up to us how we want to order it. It's just typical to introduce the history of something as the first section of an article. In my mind, the first section should be a history setion, and say things like "Wind and solar power has been used for ___ of years, providing man with a clean source of energy..." "The word 'renewable' was coined in the 1970s to refer to these sources, and contrast them with fossil fuels...", and so on. The first picture in the article is a historical source of renewable energy, after all.  :-) — Omegatron 12:28, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

The same problem occured on the page Fuel cell, i think if you want to make a clear structure in which you can quickly retrieve the info you want, and if you are deeply interested you keep on reading (the bottom side), now, that would say, the intro, than the element, descriptions, etc, (in short the actual state of the subject) and if i am deep/deep interested, i would like to read the history, (how did it come to this actual state). reg. Mion 13:23, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

As you can see on Fuel cell, history is silently moving up -:).Mion 13:26, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure what's best. Just putting an idea out there. The history section would certainly need to be reorganized before putting it first. — Omegatron 13:40, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Nuclear section

Rewrite on the nuclear sectrion without discussion on the talk page on such a sensitive issue? I will set it back to its original state, if you want it changed, discuss it here first. reg Mion 03:08, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I was restoring it to its original state. The Cohen and Tulenko quotes were mistakenly moved to the Sustainable energy article, but both people are clearly using the word "renewable", so I moved it back. Can you please restore the original version? I don't want to revert war. — Omegatron 04:40, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Stupid action from me, sorry, its back. reg. Mion 09:39, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

We had a clear consensus above that the nuclear section of this article should include the fact that two well-known politians (GWB and Sainsbury) have publicly claimed that they think that nuclear energy is renewable, but that this is not the definition used by the rest of the scientific and political world. Therefore, it was agreed, there should be a short section to reflect this ('We have a consensus above: "any mention of nuclear should be minor"... "mention should be small"... "a paragraph". Agreed. — Omegatron 16:53, 3 October 2006 (UTC)'). There should also be no re-hashing here of the normal pro/anti nuclear debate as that is well covered elsewhere in WP. I see that Omegatron has edited today to "replace deleted content", taking it back, now, to eight paragraphs and making it one of the larger sections in the article again, longer than sections on Wind energy, Solar energy etc. Which parts of the words 'consensus' and 'balance' do we need to debate the meaning of? --Nigelj 15:19, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

See also WP:NPOV#Undue weight. --Nigelj 18:31, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Last edits by User:Skyemoor again reduced the section, probably to an acceptable size for this context. But the grand nuclear debate should produce more palatable output. Why not a special article on the Nuclear as renewable issue? There many valid pro- and counter arguments can be presented to the readers. MGTom 02:00, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

A special article would be better than attempting to distort the size of this article. And 'long standing debate' is misrepresentative of the breadth of the debate, which was narrow and limited. Skyemoor 10:59, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Some more "aye" responses are needed before we declare an agreement on a separate article for the "Nuclear as renewable energy".
The adjective long-standing does not imply breath but temporal duration. According to my handy vocabulary, is roughly equivalent to "very old, ancient, antique". As we describe items opened 20+ years ago (Cohen), the proposed adjective seems fitting (not ancient, but quite old). Please find more wording that would whet a reader's interest to go to the "nuclear debate" article, whereto we want to delegate all details on the issue. MGTom 11:21, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I know you don't want this content in this article, but this is where it belongs. You can't keep removing proponents' arguments and turning the section into "Nuclear is not renewable, but evil people are trying to claim that it is so they can steal government funding". There are notable people making valid arguments that nuclear should be considered renewable. Policies like NPOV trump the efforts of a dedicated few. Censoring viewpoints you don't like by shoveling them off into their own article is a prohibited POV fork. — Omegatron 13:14, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

It is a bit wordy, it don't think its censorship to put a summary of the controversy in the article and give the details of the debate on its own page. That seems to be a standard practice.

The wording looked reasonably NPOV to me, if a too long. I removed the reference to moral advantage" and "scientific definitions" as POV. I then organized all the statutory stuff into one paragraph. TRWBW 15:31, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

And now it's been blanked again. What page would you suggest we move the "wordiness" about renewable energy to? Nuclear power? Nuclear power controversy? — Omegatron 01:16, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

The latter has been mentioned before, so that would be the preferred choice. Skyemoor 02:55, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

It seems to be back to being POV here. Shame. TRWBW 06:11, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I'd say that there are a political (with an agenda about things to be considered for the future of our way of life) and a scientifical side that do not mix easily :

• It is good to tell people that, when there remains not enough fossil fuel, we can still spend energy. Countries and companies devoted to the nuclear side use have their reasons and arguments to promote renewable items and to try and include nuclear power amongst them.
• We cannot truly consider the earth and the sun to be in our hands at the same level. What we take from the earth, disappears slowly or quickly ; what the sun gives (heat, light, and, secondarily, wind), it will give more during enough time to think. This is why science could tell again : pure earth resources are not renewable. Fossil fuel is still, too slowly to be useful, created with help from the sun.

Now, debates about nuclear power are often biased : one forgets security and hidden costs, one forgets immediate benefits. Both arguments must be in the foreground everytime. -- DLL ^{.. T} 20:05, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Nuclear Energy, renewable?

as an uninterested comment giving person i'd say nuclear should not be in an article about renewable energy, because it is not renewable, that's no judgement on its usefullness or potential as an alternative energy source, or the fact that due to abundance of uranium it can potentially provide energy for thousands of years, its just not renewable. so shouldn't be included.Burnt-sienna 17:50, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

The article isn't saying that nuclear is renewable. It's saying that there's debate about it. — Omegatron 18:50, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

There is honest disagreement on what 'renewable' means. Same with 'clean', 'green', and 'ecofriendly.' It gets more complicated because there are both technical issues and policy issues. Just to give you one example of why it's not so simple, geothermal energy, which everyone considers renewable, is 'renewed' by nuclear fission. The fission just happens inside the earth instead of in a reactor, otherwise it's identical to nuclear energy. Wikipedia policy is to give all the sides of the debate. TRWBW 23:11, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I think nuclear power can stay as a renewable energy source. About 95-97% of nuclear fuel (uranium 238 or 235 in most cases ) is recyclable after it's used. --MonkBirdDuke 18:34, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Into what, weapons grade plutonium? And then how is it 'recycled' after that? This is not true recycling, as the aluminum in aluminum cans can be reused countless times, but that is not the case for Uranium in any form. And since the supply is finite, there is no renewable aspect to it. Skyemoor 18:40, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

95-97% of the nuclear fuel is recyclable into reusable nuclear fuel (as opposed to making a depository for the whole 100% of it...very wasteful from an environmental and economic standpoint). The byproduct of that will again be recyclable. Not considering breeders, recycling, or the oceans vast supply of uranium is how anti-nuclear advocates try to say nuclear energy is not sustainable. If you instead wanted to reprocess nuclear fuel in a manner to make weapons grade plutonium, then I would imagine that only a few percent of the nuclear fuel could be used. Personally, I don't know why the United States would even want to do this type of reprocessing since they already have enough to blow the face of the world up some rediculous number of times. If you're interested in the different types of reprocessing, you can read the nuclear fuel cycle article. Ajnosek 19:13, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

But the discussion wasn't about whether you can recycle some nuclear materials into some other nuclear things, but whether that makes them into a renewable energy source in the terms of this article. --Nigelj 19:52, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

George bush's comments

I dont think it is appropriate for two people's opinions to be included with both on the same side, it seems very POV also the way it is put is looks like the editor is trying to prove something, and it looks very bad, opinions (who ever makes them) should not be included unless the article is about that person or their views activities etc.Burnt-sienna 18:02, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

The section very clearly says that most people don't consider nuclear to be renewable, and that it isn't considered as such by most laws. What's the problem? — Omegatron 18:53, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Ugh

Although the debate about nuclear power as a renewable resource obviously belongs in the article about renewable resources, Andrewa is right; the vast majority of new visitors to this article are going to be POV pushers who will delete, bias, or minimize the section because they personally consider the concept absurd. It's such a reliable, persistent occurrence we could probably rig up a turbine to it and create a new renewable power plant.

Maintaining the neutrality of this section is a hopeless chore, and we all have better things to spend our time on. So yeah, for practicality's sake, we should do as MGTom suggested and move the bulk of the section to another article, leaving a short paragraph of summary here.

But which article? None are really that appropriate. Nuclear power as a renewable energy source would be a POV fork and there's not really enough content for its own article. Nuclear power might work, Nuclear power controversy might be better. Thoughts? — Omegatron 19:13, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

The latter has been mentioned before, so that would be the preferred choice. Skyemoor 02:55, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

It bothers me too that its so hard to keep this article NPOV. I don't understand the big debate, the facts seem clear. There is a minority opinion believes Nuclear Power should be considered renewable. They have their arguments, and there are counter arguments. List them and be done with it. This should be a few paragraphs at most. TRWBW 23:18, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Me too. But we're stuck with the fact that every newcomer (and POV pusher) is going to say "nuclear should not be on this page because it's not renewable" and delete it or minimize it without discussion. Do you really want to maintain the neutrality of this section by yourself forever? I've been doing it and it's not easy (or relaxing).

If we move most of it to Nuclear power controversy#A renewable energy source?, which is a decent, but not perfect match for the topic, and leave an innocuous summary here, it will not be nearly as prone to abuse. — Omegatron 17:04, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

The minority is so tiny that we had determined before that a short paragraph is an appropriate means to introduce the subject and point to the appropriate article. Skyemoor 11:57, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

This is the appropriate article. The section is about the meaning of the term "renewable energy", is it not? This was the article about "renewable energy", last time I checked.

The minority is so notable and pertinent that you are violating the neutral point of view by blanking it.

Will you stop revert warring over it if we move most of it to another article? — Omegatron 17:04, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

If the consensus is to fork off the debate, how about 'Debate on nuclear power as renewable energy'? It's a bit long, but I don't see a way to shorten it. Somehow you have to fit 'debate' 'nuclear power' and 'renewable energy' in the title. TRWBW 18:50, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I was going to move it to Nuclear power controversy, but then I looked at that article, and I don't really see the point of its existence. The first comment on the talk page is "This page is currently cut in past mostly from nuclear power and a little bit from nuclear reactor and pebble bed reactor." Why wasn't the content just left in those articles? — Omegatron 20:51, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Ethanol

Skyemoor, fertilizers and pesticides can be (and are being) made from soybean oils. One company, Agriliance, makes all their chemicals and adjuvants from a Soy base. And can someone tell me an area where switchgrass is grown, it is only in the research stages.Sjostrom 21:32, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

• Lesqual, your point is well taken, though I would like to point out that farm equipment could use ethanol, thereby eliminating use of gasoline/diesel in the planting/cultivating/harvesting of biomass for ethanol (fertilizer and pesticides aside, I believe). So for every 1 unit of energy invested in corn based ethanol, 1.25 units would be returned. Not as good as cellulosic approaches or biodiesel (3.5 EROEI), but still workable. Skyemoor 11:57, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
  • See my point after about land - a 1.25 ROIE crop takes TEN TIMES as much land as a 3.5 ROIE crop for the same net yield, if the yield per land are similar. Also, ROIE measurements are somewhat crude since energy inputs are diverse - including natural gas to make the fertilizer, depletable phosphorous, etc. The point is really that a 100:1 to 10:1 ROIE encompasses a whole hell of a lot of waste, a whole hell of a lot of oilman salaries, cooks to feed the oilmen, executive bonuses, drilling, trickle down to foreign countries, refinery waste, steel, interest, families back home off the rig... A goodly percentage of the population is employed indirectly or directly simply because oil companies had the money. Even if land were fine, ROIE were certified positive, that doesn't necessarily allow the farmer enough money for more than slave wages to migrant farm workers. Or drought insurance. Our lifestyle is built on extremely cheap energy - we live in the margin, on the oil that isn't being used to produce more oil. Farm equipment doesn't use ethanol right now because(aside from better acceptance of diesels) the pitiful amounts leaving the farm compared to the huge amounts of cash pouring in would make obvious that the whole thing was a sham. That, and ethanol does have a niche as a fuel additive.Lesqual 22:55, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Is this a surprise? Energy is highly political. In the midwest you get votes by supporting ethanol/corn. In california you get votes by supporting solar and wind. In florida you get votes with the anti-castro lobby by putting a tariff on foreign sugar and ethanol. In texas, you get votes for supporting oil. The biggest political problem with biofuel is that it would probably be cheaper to grow the crops in other countries, and that's not going to get you any votes. TRWBW 23:33, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Biofuel from Corn (maize)

See "Efficiency of maize sunfall energy conversion" under "Talk" under "Maize".

Definition

I think it's safe to say there's no concise definition of the term "renewable energy" that everyone agrees with. Things like wind and solar are unanimously agreed to be renewable, but things like geothermal, hydroelectric, and nuclear are all cases that may or may not count depending on one's definition. The intro should say what it is in basic terms, and then include a few specific definitions, like the DOE's. — Omegatron 22:51, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I think we should reject attempts by the nuclear lobby to hijack terms for propaganda purposes. Wind, solar, geothermal and hydroelectric are all renewable, nuclear is not. It's all to do with whether the energy source (eg a wind turbine or solar cell) is renewed externally. Stephen B Streater 22:36, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Omegatron that there is no one definition which encompasses the meaning of what people here want the word "renewable" to mean. Also, I find it amusing that someone is trying to say that to be renewed means to be renewed externally. Ajnosek 20:39, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, the laws of thermodynamics prevent something being renewed internally, so it doesn't leave a lot of options. Stephen B Streater 23:08, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Exactly how can "Wind, solar, geothermal and hydroelectric" be renewed? What does this mean? 67.164.78.216 17:16, 21 February 2007 (UTC)Rich

Unless you have a better source, we'll stick with the definition of renewable energy from the International Energy Agency; http://iea.org/Textbase/publications/free_new_Desc.asp?PUBS_ID=1596

Renewables include the following categories:

Combustible Renewables and Waste* (CRW):

Solid Biomass: Covers organic, non-fossil material of biological origin which

may be used as fuel for heat production or electricity generation.

Wood, Wood Waste, Other Solid Waste: Covers purpose-grown energy

crops (poplar, willow etc.), a multitude of woody materials generated by an

industrial process (wood/paper industry in particular) or provided directly

by forestry and agriculture (fi rewood, wood chips, bark, sawdust, shavings,

chips, black liquor etc.) as well as wastes such as straw, rice husks, nut shells,

poultry litter, crushed grape dregs etc.

Charcoal: Covers the solid residue of the destructive distillation and

pyrolysis of wood and other vegetal material.

Biogas: Gases composed principally of methane and carbon dioxide

produced by anaerobic digestion of biomass and combusted to produce

heat and/or power.

Liquid Biofuels: Bio-based liquid fuel from biomass transformation, mainly

used in transportation applications.

Municipal Waste (renewables): Municipal waste energy comprises wastes

produced by the residential, commercial and public services sectors and

incinerated in specifi c installations to produce heat and/or power. The

renewable energy portion is defi ned by the energy value of combusted

biodegradable material.

Hydro Power: Potential and kinetic energy of water converted into electricity in hydroelectric plants. It includes large as well as small hydro, regardless of the size of the plants.

Geothermal Energy: Energy available as heat emitted from within the earth’s crust, usually in the form of hot water or steam. It is exploited at suitable sites for electricity generation after transformation or directly as heat for district heating, agriculture, etc.

Solar Energy: Solar radiation exploited for hot water production and electricity generation. Does not account for passive solar energy for the direct heating, cooling and lighting of dwellings or other.

Wind Energy: Kinetic energy of wind exploited for electricity generation in wind turbines.

Tide/Wave/Ocean Energy: Mechanical energy derived from tidal movement, wave motion or ocean current and exploited for electricity generation.