Talk:Rick Perry/Archive 2

Why is there a paragraph with no sources under the fiscal policy title that talks about Perry's redistricting?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.163.112.120 (talk) 05:36, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

I tagged three paragraphs in that section as {Citation needed|date=August 2011}. Thanks for pointing it out. Veriss (talk) 00:32, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

So I'm slightly confused on which part of the paragraph needs to be cited, not because of the info in it but because of the location of the tag. Do we need citations on Perry supporting DeLay's plan? On the Republican gains due to the plan? On the "23-9 majority" statement? Or multiple of those/something I missed? I do agree that it needs citations, but I want to make sure I'm not adding unnecessary references and clogging up the page.

If it's the current majority, if someone can figure out how to get a static version of this page, we can use it as a citation, but it'll change once 2012 comes around: http://www.house.gov/representatives/#state_tn Kessy628 (talk) 00:49, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

I would say that that section is common knowledge and doesn't need a citation, though I may be biased as a political junkie.Seleucus (talk) 01:51, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

AGR didn't have a chapter at Texas A and M until 1986. A 1972 graduate couldn't have been a member. "Perry attended Texas A&M University, where he was a member of the Corps of Cadets, a member of the Alpha Gamma Rho fraternity and one of A&M's five yell leaders (a popular Texas A&M tradition analogous to male cheerleaders) " — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.194.178.233 (talk) 10:35, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

According to Alpha Gamma Rho itself, Governor Rick Perry is a 'famous alumni'. A&M has two chapters: Beta Nu (colony est. 1977) and Beta Lambda (I have no idea). 99.50.188.77 (talk) 19:20, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

That's a site used by one chapter as, among other things, a recruiting tool. Wikipedia itself is as likely as anything to be the source of such a claim. Beta Nu is the chapter at College Station, where Perry attended. Beta Lambda is at the campus at Commerce. The Beta Nu site does say that there was an effort to establish a chapter at College Station in 1967, but it was dropped. Unless they operated underground for 10 years? Fat&Happy (talk) 19:33, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

(Updated) :According to a different Alpha Gamma Rho chapter, Governor Rick Perry is a 'famous alumni'. A&M has two chapters: Beta Nu (colony est. 1977) and Beta Lambda (colony est. c. 1968, but read this) at East Texas State University which later became Texas A&M-Commerce. History: "in 1962, the name was changed to East Texas State University and in 1996 became Texas A&M University-Commerce." So perhaps Rick Perry actually graduated from East Texas State University, now Texas A&M University–Commerce? 99.50.188.77 (talk) 19:41, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm not aware of any other online sources about the fraternity. As Fat&Happy says Perry went to College Station, I'm totally confused. I'm not aware of any 'pre-colony' step in forming a chapter which would allow someone to be a brother. Surely there's an official list somewhere of fraternity brothers? This just seems really odd. 99.50.188.77 (talk) 02:37, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

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Need to add the fact that Rick Perry was invited to and attended the Bildenberg conference in Turkey three years ago (May 31 2007). I have numerous sources--the Dallas Morning News (page no, date, article title, etc.), Glenn Beck, Austin TV channel 8 newscast, another local paper, etc. This is relevant because it violates the Logan Act and per your article on Bildenber--it is a secret organization of international whos whos--and voters have a right to know this and would want this information in evaluating Perry and other candidates. If you maintain that it is irrelevant you should delete the section you have in his biography on his vacation to Asia. Keeping this out is censorship.(Sheilakissane (talk) 03:28, 16 August 2011 (UTC))

Sheilakissane (talk) 03:28, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Please see my detailed response to your multiple posts on this subject in the section you created for it above at Talk:Rick Perry#Moved from WP:RFPP. Please do not create multiple sections about the same topic just because you don't get your way. Veriss (talk) 03:52, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Topher385 (talk) 10:21, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

I did not create the additional section on the Perry Bilderberg meeting. Someone else did. Check it out. Guess what?? I am not the only one who thinks the Bilderberg visit is relevant. Most of your voters may not care but a lot of them will. I the question of whether or not you print the truth in you articles determined by popular vote?? Governor of Texas went to a secret international conference of the world's whos who 3 years ago and now he is suddenly a viable presidential candidate with donations flowing in like water. Also CNN preempted their programming on Saturday morning to cover his speech announcing the candidacy. How many other candidates did they do this for? How many other candidates went to the Bilderberg conference?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sheilakissane (talk • contribs) 21:52, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

This is starting to sound like a conspiracy theory. Perry has for a while now been incredibly good at fundraising, and likewise has for a while now been talked about as a candidate for president. As for CNN, when Perry said that he was going to officially enter the race, the entire news media went crazy. The fact that they "preempted" their Saturday morning programming to cover the speech is not at all abnormal nor unheard of. If Chris Christie or Paul Ryan said today that they were going to make a major announcement on Saturday, CNN would do the exact same thing.

Anyway, if you can find a source directly contributing his going to the Bilderberg to his viability for president by all means tell us. For now though, the RfC below is showing a consensus for exclusion of this over inclusion. Kessy628 (talk) 22:19, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

"Perry has for while been incredibly good at fundraising". Since how long is awhile--since he went to Bilderberg three years ago. OK. About 12 candidates announced for president as republicans. Which other ones did CNN preempt its regular morning broadcasts for??? Yea. Right. Good luck(Sheilakissane (talk)) —Preceding undated comment added 22:36, 16 August 2011 (UTC).

Ok lets see here... For starters, here's an article about his fundraising prowess. Note how it says "over the past decade": http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/chronicle/7638138.html

Here's another: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/13/us/politics/13donate.html?_r=2&hp

Here's a third: http://www.rollcall.com/issues/57_22/Perry-Fundraising-History-Faces-New-Test-208131-1.html

Ok now that that's out of the way, lets next look at CNN. I don't know if I would count a major new player in the Republican presidential field making a planned announcement that had been known for at least a week before would be called "preempting." CNN reports on the news, and this was a major news story. Now I'll be honest, I don't know what CNN's "regular morning broadcasts" are, so if you could give more information to this, specifically a listing of CNN programming by hour for a regular Saturday, it'd be greatly appreciated. Kessy628 (talk) 22:54, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Perry raised $100 million in 10 years as governor--more than half of it from 51 donors. All big corporations to whom he gave back a state with the most minimum wage jobs in the country and no limitations on illegal alien inflows. Let's see how he does post his little junket to Turkey. Watch the PAC contributions pour in.

The show that CNN preempted was "Your Money" in a week when the stock market looked like the cyclone roller coaster at Coney Island and everyone thought they would lose their 401ks. I have seen this show preempted twice before--once was for Katrina. Curiouser and curiouser.(Sheilakissane (talk) 01:00, 17 August 2011 (UTC))

User:Corwin8 recently added the following line into the article: "However, the Houston Chronicle has noted that Perry was only "Playing to the base" and has taken no steps to promote intelligent design in the classroom," referencing the Houston Chronicle. I've reverted it, as the citation looks to fail WP:RS, as it appears to be a blog post. While I agree that Perry's actions are just as important as his views, a better reference would be necessary in my opinion for this to be considered reliable enough for inclusion. Kessy628 (talk) 01:55, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Since that same blog post was the only source for the original assertion, I've removed the section as unsourced. Fat&Happy (talk) 15:55, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

I understand, but what about my passage that noted that since Perry has been Governor, he has made no effort to teach intelligent design in the classroom? Doesn't that clarify his position? For any politician, there is always a difference between what they say and what they do. Corwin8 (talk) 20:58, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

The current section on Intelligent Design is cited, however it should be expanded if possible. I've found a source with a couple of links to various speeches and press releases Perry has given/released, however I don't know how far into detail in fleshing it out and such. If someone is willing to give it a go, I'd be willing to copyedit it, otherwise I'll give it a try over the weekend when I have more time I guess. http://www.tfn.org/site/PageServer?pagename=issues_religious_right_watch_rick_perry#CREATIONISM Kessy628 (talk) 17:57, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

We have comments from six years ago on this page and it is getting pretty long so I suggest we setup an auto-archive routine. I could probably figure it out but don't want to break the page. Concurrence? Veriss (talk) 00:37, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Seconded. This is getting to be way too long of a talk page. Kessy628 (talk) 00:42, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

• Support - Morphh ^(talk) 00:51, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
• Support Seleucus (talk) 01:31, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

I've set up MiszaBot to autoarchive the page. Hopefully this will work correctly and solve the problems. Kessy628 (talk) 01:52, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

It doesn't appear to have kicked in yet. The settings appear to be okay. Veriss (talk) 01:16, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

In connection with the above, I see the article currently has a WFAA and a New Yorker article in External links. If these could be moved to be references to the relevant material in the body of the article, that would discourage the addition of other separate news articles. They are about two very specific points, and it doesn't appear encyclopedic for those points and only those points to be highlighted in External links. There are so many collected news sources available for this person that separate news articles aren't needed in this section. 75.59.226.113 (talk) 15:32, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Done. The event the WFAA article covers does not appear to have retained historical notability. The New Yorker article already had two inline citations in the section about the condemned. Veriss (talk) 03:24, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Perry:""I think people are making a lot of this issue"

Shake-up in Texas execution probe draws criticism, questions, CNN, October 01, 2009.91.39.75.214 (talk) 22:28, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

The source and the quote is already in the article. Veriss (talk) 03:33, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

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Needs a section, one way or the other — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.247.29.132 (talk) 01:44, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Why? Veriss (talk) 03:47, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

It is relevant to his qualifications for office, a link to this wiki article might be appropriate? List_of_Bilderberg_participants 173.247.29.132 (talk) 04:38, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

I have seen that list of attendees to an international discussion about various topics concerning the US and Europe. As the governor of a large state who attends hundreds of meetings each year around the world, why do you feel that his attendance at this particular meeting is important and merits inclusion in the article? Veriss (talk) 04:46, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

This particular meeting might be more interesting to Wikipedia readers, and more relevant to their search for valid information, than the hundreds of other meetings you mention. There is quite a bit of background in the article already, however this is topical to current events. The hundreds of other meetings may not be as important to your readers. My search for this information is what led me to the article. What is the point of leaving it out? 173.247.29.132 (talk) 13:46, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

It's an encyclopedia, not a news article. So it needs to be important to the general media and his biography, before it will be considered important here. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. If it becomes a controversy or a criticism of Perry, then it would be worth noting, but we would need to see that reflected in the media and give it WP:DUE weight. We can't include every critical or positive thing about the man. We have to weight the news within a historical context and include material that is part of his notability. Morphh ^(talk) 14:18, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

I did not realize this matter was already discussed and has been decided. The information is found in small/alternate US media, and also in another Wikipedia article. I just thought it appropriate to link to the information, because sometimes people use an encyclopedia to verify or dismiss articles found on the internet. When searching, the likely term will be "Rick Perry," and not "List of Bilderberg Participants." Thanks to everybody for the work on the article. 173.247.29.132 (talk) 16:14, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

from another section re relevance of Perry attending Bilderberg--

Wikipedia article--"Bilderberg Club is an annual, unofficial, invitation-only conference of approximately 120 to 140 guests from North America and Western Europe, most of whom are people of influence.[1] About one-third are from government and politics, and two-thirds from finance, industry, labour, education and communications. Meetings are closed to the public and often feature future political leaders shortly before they become household names" Meetings are closed to the public and so are secret. Article in the Dallas Morning News about Perry's trip in 2007 was entitled "Perry attends secret meeting in Turkey."

Wikipedia article further goes on to say that the annual Bilderberg meeting are designed to "to foster cooperation on political, economic, and defense issues." Again Wikipedia article on the Logan Act--"The text of the Act is broad and is addressed at any attempt of a US citizen to conduct foreign relations without authority" --Is Perry's attendance a possible violation of the Logan Act??? Going to Turkey to "foster cooperation on political..and defense issues" with heads of other foreign governments in attendance couldn't possibly constitute "conducting foreign relations"??? I guess we'll never know if US political figures attending this meeting are violating the Logan Act or not since the meetings are secret.

Who is not going to want to know this about a guy who suddenly becomes a viable pres candidate 3 years after he attends with money flowing in like water and CNN preempting its broadcasting for him???? Note in particular from Wikipedia quote above--and often feature future political leaders shortly before they become household names" (Sheilakissane (talk) 21:01, 16 August 2011 (UTC)) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sheilakissane (talk • contribs)

I don't think it was "decided", only that during the very short time it was discussed, no one interested in its inclusion was able to demonstrate it was important enough without veering off toward murky conspiracy territory. Please provide sources that it is somehow important for a biography of a living person and I will be happy to add it myself. Veriss (talk) 18:05, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

It was removed with no edit summary (I spent quite a while finding that out). It's actively been discussed now as it's clearly relevant to his being a presidential candidate - why? because people who would otherwise support him are saying this upsets them. It's controversial. And was in the article for at least 3 years until it was removed without explanation on May 1st. Dougweller (talk) 19:35, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

I've now replaced it twice. As I said, it was removed with no explanation on May 1st. Dead links are not a good reason for removal, see our guidelines on that, and and are live links. One brief sentence is not undue weight, and it seems unusual for someone like him to be an attendee. Maybe if he were much more liberal and a Democrat you could call it undue, but not here. Dougweller (talk) 19:42, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Dougweller: which people? I just did a quick google search for Rick Perry Bilderberg and practically everything I found was blog posts. I can't see any notable sources that talk about him going and its impact on him at all, though if people find them for me I'd gladly accept them. It's interesting, but it's not notable enough or talked about enough reliable sources to accurately source for inclusion. Also, just because it was in the article for 3 years until May 1st doesn't mean it has to go back in. I'd personally like to reach a new consensus on this before taking any action, and from what I can tell there's a consensus at the moment against it. If people have an opinion and haven't spoken yet, they need to. Kessy628 (talk) 19:44, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Hey, guy, look again. Dallas Morning News ran an article on it on May 31, 2007, page 4a, entitled--"Perry attends secret meeting in Turkey", Glenn Beck did part of a show on it, there is a channel 8 newscast recording of the story, and references to some smaller Texas papers who reported on Perry's attendance. Are you saying you doubt he attended??

Relevance to voters is this is a secret meeting with world leaders in attendance. Three years later the guy is a viable candidate for presidency with CNN preempting all their broadcasting to cover his presidential announcement. (Sheilakissane (talk) 21:59, 16 August 2011 (UTC))

If it's controversial, then there should be more reliable sources reporting on it, not minor and scattered news sources. Also, headings are reserved for Major areas of the person's biography. What is the justification for giving it a header and section of it's own? It has no context and appears to be something pulled together as a conspiracy theory. If we're going to include it, we need to understand why it is important to his notability (and not because a couple editors say it's important - reliable sources need to say it's important and why). Morphh ^(talk) 19:46, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Do you doubt that he showed up??? (Sheilakissane (talk) 22:42, 16 August 2011 (UTC)) Kind of important if a guy comes from nowhere to suddenly become a presidential candidate with money flowing like water and CNN preempting all their broadcasting for him. Also according to your article--Wikipedia--on Bilderber--they are kingmakers.(Sheilakissane (talk) 22:42, 16 August 2011 (UTC))

Morph, that's a subsection. Tell you what, I'll start an RfC. Dougweller (talk) 20:37, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, mis-spoke but still the same point. Subsections are to be important as well. See WP:STRUCTURE Morphh ^(talk) 21:09, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

We're repeating ourselves, again. This discussion appears to have run its course unless some new information is found. Veriss (talk) 23:20, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

That's enough. I've removed Sheilakissane's last comments accusing him of violating the Logan Act. If anyone ever does end up in court for such a violation, that would be extremely newsworthy since there haven't been any indictments for the last two centuries. Don't repeat it here. Anyone wanting to discuss the Logan Act in general can discuss it at that article's talk page without mentioning names. It's a flagrant BLP violation and if you see any such accusations in an article or a talk page, they can and almost always should be removed.

According to Wikipedia's article on Bilderberg, it is an international gathering of 120 political, economic, and industrial leaders from all over the world held in secret. The purpose of the meeting is to foster international cooperation (according to Wikipedia). Let's drill down a bit on "fostering cooperation"--If governor Rick Perry is at such a secret meeting fostering cooperation, are you afraid your readers could speculate that Perry was discussing an international highway corridor through his state with a couple of Spanish Industrialists, for example. Or maybe discussing the "privatization" or fire sale of assets from the state of Texas (ostensibly to balance the state budget) to some foreign economists--in exchange for the funds needed to make a presidential run??? I believe you guys are afraid of the implications of the trip--not afraid that it is not relevant. Why not put a cork in the inappropriate censorship of the fact that the guy was invited and made the trip 3 years ago--and let your readers form their own conclusions if they wish? The truth will set you free and bookburning and yellow journalism are not cool. (Sheilakissane (talk) 18:47, 18 August 2011 (UTC))

Are you done WP:COATRACKing yet? Or are you going to continue trying to pump spin into this? You need to review WP:BLP before you continue down this path. As I commented further down the page, if it's not verifiable, it can't be included in the article, and you've shown absolutely nothing in the way of reliable, verifiable sources that would support your edits. --Alan the Roving Ambassador (User:N5iln) (talk) 18:53, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Not quite because you don't read. From another editor (sources) but I guess these aren't good enuff. You have to have been there, I guess--

Fort Worth Star-Telegram : Perry's road show‎; Fort Worth Star-Telegram - Jun 26, 2007; Rick Perry says he's eager to travel the state telling Texans his version of what ... A few weeks ago, he was in; Turkey to speak to the secretive Bilderberg ...

Dallas Morning News, The : Perry off to secret forum in...‎; Dallas Morning News - May 31, 2007; AUSTIN Gov Rick Perry is flying to Istanbul Turkey today to speak at the super secret Bilderberg; Conference a meeting of about 130 international leaders in ...

Austin American-Statesman : Perry speaking to top-secret...‎; Austin American-Statesman - Jun 1, 2007; Fresh off of Monday's end to the legislative session Gov Rick Perry is in Istanbul Turkey this week to speak to the Bilderberg Conference a topsecret ...

[two more sources:]

Perry's push for highway raises conspiracy buzz | Front...‎; Houston Chronicle - Aug 18, 2007; AUSTIN Black helicopters the Illuminati Gov Rick Perry and the ... Turkey to attend the secretive; Bilderberg conference which conspiracy theorists believe ...

Comments on: Immigration Collapse A Blow To Bush - CBS News‎; CBS News - Jun 9, 2007; Protesters in the Austin TX area will be joining together to demonstrate against Rick Perry's recent trip to Istanbul to meet in secret with the Bilderberg ...

Those sources, plus the fact that many anti-Perry forces are harping on the trip now (in 2011) make it at least worthy of a minor mention in this article. --Noleander (talk) 22:36, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

I have read the Dallas Morning News article but would also add a video from Austin channel 8 news, a segment from the Glen Beck show. Hey, Allen, why don't you go and get on the US trip to the moon article and complain that there aren't enuff substantiating sources for that. You know--a lot of people like you believe that the moon landing was all staged. Another little job for you--have you substantiated that it was in fact Osama who was taken out by the uS Seals instead of a fake????? Some of you guys are a piece of work (Sheilakissane (talk) 21:54, 18 August 2011 (UTC))

As a three-term governor of a large state with several major cities, every major Texas news source has a separate news section just for him, going back to the start of his governorship. To avoid a list of individual articles at the end of External links, including the two we already have from the Austin Chronicle, I suggest listing the following as representative of various local viewpoints. 75.59.226.113 (talk) 15:23, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Local media coverage

• The Perry Trap at The Austin Chronicle
• Perry Watch at The Dallas Morning News
• Rick Perry 2012 at the Fort Worth Star-Telegram
• Rick Perry at the Houston Chronicle
• The Perry Trove at the Texas Monthly
• The Perry Trail at The Texas Observer
• Rick Perry at The Texas Tribune

I think your suggestion makes sense and I would add them now. However, looking at the current EL section though it is large, ungainly and very unorganized. I think someone with experience in BLP EL policies needs to go through that section and clean it up some before we add a raft of new links. I can take a stab at organizing it once it's been culled. Cheers, Veriss (talk) 18:33, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

We usually try to avoid such lists and focus on the primary sites about the subject, such as official sites. Otherwise, it grows and grows. Why this paper or site and not this one. Next thing you know it's linking to Media Matters and every other site that has a page on him. If we review WP:EL, this list should be fairly limited. At the moment, I wouldn't object to placing it under "Further Reading" but eventually, I think they should be removed and not listed. Morphh ^(talk) 18:52, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand the dogged determination to make this article different from every other Governor and presidential candidate article over the years. Is there a reason for this? 75.59.226.113 (talk) 19:21, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Please be more specific about your concerns. Veriss (talk) 19:44, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand what you mean. I looked at Obama, Biden, Hillary, Romney, Bachmann. None of them have additional links like this. What articles are you describing? They probably need to be edited. Morphh ^(talk) 19:47, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Veriss suggested a mass cull. Morphh is probably looking at current versions of articles rather than the versions at the relevant point in time of the 2008 campaign. Official links (office and campaign) start the list. People with their own campaign site don't have additional social media links added because they're in the campaign site. This also prevents the addition of look-alike social media sites being added, which is a serious problem if they then link to fake fundraising appeals. Therefore, the Twitter link should be removed. I already suggested the separate article links be moved. People in congress have the CongLinks template, governors have the GovLinks template. Those who have been both have both templates. When a governor runs for federal office, federal links such as the FEC and Open Secrets are either added separately, or the CongLinks template is added to provide formatting. During a campaign, the number of relevant links increases. For example, I remember the Chicago Tribune and Chicago Sun-Times coverage of Obama was listed, as he was then a Senator from Illinois and so Illinois coverage was the local coverage and Chicago is the only major city in Illinois. It was similar for McCain with Phoenix coverage and Palin with Alaska coverage. Clinton was in New York, which meant national combined with local. As the coverage grew across the country, these links were replaced with a link to the matching Open Directory Project category. The official links and the templates remained in External links, but the category took care of everything else. After the election, the categories and their contents might change according to what the person's position became (President, Senator and so forth). Mitt Romney currently has categories for his 2012 campaign and his 2008 campaign. Ron Paul also has two campaign categories. Today, many of the earlier 2008 links are no longer listed as they've been closed, and it's early in the 2012 campaign so links are still being created by the news media, supporter groups and others. In 2008 the major candidates had various subcategories, but after the election the remaining ones were merged into the one category. If you don't think it's too soon, you could add this instead of those seven local media links: {{Dmoz|Regional/North_America/United_States/Society_and_Culture/Politics/Candidates_and_Campaigns/President/Candidates/Perry%2C_Rick}} The importance of local coverage, however it is included, is that it provides contemporaneous reports on the day to day issues of a state officeholder, which national coverage generally ignores at the time unless it's soundbite-worthy. 75.59.226.113 (talk) 21:07, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

I haven't bothered to check the old versions of those articles, but I'll trust your logic, as it seems sound and feasible. I'd be up for adding the open directory project link, but I do agree that Veriss is right in the need to cull some of the current external links. Until that's done, I'd hold off on adding it, as there's a risk of losing it in the process. Kessy628 (talk) 21:34, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Done: I still think there are too many ELs in there but I've added all of the ones you requested. I took a stab at organizing it and it looks easier to use now in my opinion. Veriss (talk) 02:36, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

The EL's needed culling and I culled the dead and broken links and weak, redundant biographies stipulated by the vaunted template. I detected a certain amount of condescension in your last post and I feel that I'm working for you because you chose not to register an account. A bit more respect would be appreciated.

The wonderful govlinks and conglinks templates though handy and nifty are rather inflexible and outdated in my opinion. I even took the step of editing the govlinks template to bring it up to date. I had noticed before that several links resulted in 404 or yielded sup-par biographies that did the reader no service and needed "culling", they were "culled". Please see my very detailed edit summaries. I never stated that a "mass culling" needed to be done, it appears that I need to be much more careful in my choice of words.

I added every link you explicitly requested and even links you intimated might be useful. I am prepared for your feedback. Cheers, Veriss (talk) 08:41, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

The NGA changed their website on July 6, according to a press release on their site. If you replace the natgov parameter with "nga = current-governors/col2-content/main-content-list/rick-perry.html" it will work. (The change in parameter name is to allow an automated search of which current and former governor articles still need to be updated.) The National Governor's Association biographies are more useful for less well-known governors, particularly those with very short Wikipedia and state biographies, but they're included because the NGA is the official group. The Washington Post biography is really quite extensive and very different from the Wikipedia article, which is why it's included. Perhaps you didn't follow the additional sections of Path to Power, The Issues, The Network, and Footnotes. We realized readers were having similar problems with the Project Vote Smart site, which is why some subsections are now listed separately. We could do something similar with the Washington Post site if that would be helpful. The ";2012 Presidential campaign related links" title should be something like ";Government service" as it covers both his current campaign and his service as Governor. I see you didn't use the Open Directory Project template, but listed it in full. There are also templates for NYTtopic, WSJtopic, Guardiantopic and Economisttopic available for use. The advantage to a template is both consistency in formatting and ease of change (sometimes, not in the current case of NGA) if a website changes its structure. In this case, I doubt it matters. As for the rest of your comment, I have no interest in trading insults with you. I took the time to provide a fairly full explanation of the history of the EL sections in politician articles as many Wikipedians, Admins and project members, worked things out over the years. What others found to be useful, you found to be condescending. I was curious to see if that's the view you take when working with others on other articles, and I found it often was. You might consider if perhaps the problem is with your own attitude and assumptions, not with those of others. 75.59.207.72 (talk) 14:45, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

You may be an IP editor, but it doesn't exempt you from WP:NPA. He added the links like you asked, and made a simple comment. Watch it with the personal attacks, and if you think he's not doing what you wanted you're more than welcome to make an account and fix it yourself. Kessy628 (talk) 15:08, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Let us know when the FEC and Open Secrets sites have information on Perry and I'll populate those fields in the Conglinks template. Veriss (talk) 19:22, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

I think this belongs in the article, see , and other sources. His religion section looks incomplete and possibly pov without this. Dougweller (talk) 07:31, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

His support from Dominionists is definitely relevant to his campaign and could be covered in the daughter article about the campaign (Rick Perry presidential campaign, 2012). It's a little harder to get the wording right for the main bio article. The discussion of his big prayer meeting should report that it was criticized on grounds of the separation of church and state, but the problem with reporting his opinions is that, AFAIK, he's been largely dog-whistling. If he's overtly endorsed a theocracy, we can report that. If he's been cannier about it, though, then our task is harder. There are two obvious solutions that are both easy and both wrong: confining ourselves to reporting only his exact words, and giving complete free rein to every interpretation that's been offered. It would help if you (or somebody) would take a stab at using this talk page to suggest a first draft for discussion. JamesMLane t c 18:54, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Right now we have a section on Perry's governorship that (properly) includes his record as Governor, but also includes things he's said -- and although he said them while Governor, they didn't relate to his office. For example, the Governor of Texas is not responsible for supervising the Chairman of the Federal Reserve Board or for having him beaten up when appropriate. This and several other passages in that section really belong in a separate "Political positions" section. This is the organization followed in, for example, the Mitt Romney article.

If the two subjects are broken out, there will be some duplication, as the "Political positions" section should include reference to positions he took in the course of being Governor. I don't see a big problem if there's some overlap of that sort.

Does anyone see any reason not to effect this re-organization? JamesMLane t c 02:24, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

I think yours is a good suggestion. Veriss (talk) 02:28, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. I'll try to implement it now. Seleucus (talk) 16:19, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

As you noted, there were a lot of passages that could plausibly belong in both sections; I only moved the unambiguous ones, for now. Seleucus (talk) 16:31, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

"The administration of Gov. Rick Perry of Texas, a Republican presidential candidate, has doled out millions of dollars in grants that benefit some of his most generous donors. State money awarded to G-Con, a pharmaceutical start-up, provides an example of how state grants appear to be paying dividends for some major Perry contributors."

• Tracking the Flow of Money nytimes.com.84.147.102.235 (talk) 20:23, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
• Perry Mines Texas System to Raise Cash for Campaigns nytimes.com August 20, 2011.84.147.102.235 (talk) 23:06, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

• Rick Perry accused of hypocrisy as he comes under fire for investment in America's largest pornography distributor.84.147.102.235 (talk) 21:07, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

This is discussed with the relevant link in the section right above this one. Falcon8765 ^(TALK) 21:13, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Why is this in Perry's biography? Economy of Texas is the appropriate place for this information unless we're directly relating it to Perry's notability, claims he's made, or other sources that directly correlate it to actions of Perry. As of now, there is no context here that would make this appropriate for this article. Morphh ^(talk) 03:10, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

I was the one who added the section.

In short, since Perry began his presidential campaign, he and his supporters have emphasized the job creation number (237,000 in last two or so years) as a sort of argument that he would help the U.S. economy. His detractors, meanwhile, have pointed out the unemployment rate (exactly median among U.S. States) among other things, so I thought it needed to be condensed into a mention at least (besides, there were a bunch of others adding specific statistics in a somewhat onesided fashion), so this was my attempt to condense the hard numbers into a concise section without delving too deeply into the arguments between both sides.

You are right, however, that it needs to have relation to Perry, so I'll point out that the state of the Texan economy has been the subject of various claims by Perry's supporters and detractors. Seleucus (talk) 03:32, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, that helps. I think these arguments need to be folded into the overall topic where we discuss his economic record in Texas. The economic claims by Perry's supporters and detractors need to be together so that the reader can properly follow debate. Morphh ^(talk) 11:03, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Someone collected some relevant BLS numbers on the economy. It looks like the reason Texas has median unemployment in spite of the highest job growth rate is partly from everyone moving there (BLS shows the population growth is much faster than the second fastest-growing state). The guy who posted it doesn't appear to be a Perry supporter, though, so I'm not sure if it's relevant, since the section seems to be about the debate between supporters/detractors, and I haven't heard anyone else talk about these figures. Beardc (talk) 21:38, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Doesn't matter to me if it was created by a Communist as long as it's valid information. I looked this presentation over and found it to be very interesting. Unfortunately since it's an independent blog we'll have to wait for the mainstream media to pick it up. There was a reply (3rd post - AFMom) that similar data was available at the Texas Workforce Commission/NTI website but I was unable to dig it up. Veriss (talk) 04:17, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

It looks like The Economist at least treats the population growth data and more critiques. It also notes (along with politicalmath) that "Texas’s median wage is close to the national one." I haven't seen the politicalmath data in mainstream media, but Nate Silver (NYT columnist/blogger) and Tyler Cowen (NYT columnist/blogger/economist in his own right) pointed favorably to it. Not sure what counts for `mainstream' though. Beardc (talk) 02:19, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Looks like ABC news picked it up too. Beardc (talk) 02:32, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Others (ex: Paul Krugman) have posited that the reason Texas has high job growth rate is just that it's undergoing rapid population expansion (mainly Hispanics who are not exactly motivated by the tax structure.) A bit of a chicken and egg problem here... 141.211.231.229 (talk) 19:27, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

The politicalmathblog pointed out a similar idea, I think ("more people = more consumers = more jobs."). The economist article includes another critique that Texas is simply 'poaching' jobs from other states. Not sure whether this is a good or bad thing. Beardc (talk) 02:19, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

It looks like the blog is suggesting that Texas has an excellent economy (as exemplified in its job growth), which only looks bad because so many people are migrating there, so fast that it's economy can't create enough jobs. Whereas Krugman has suggested that Texas's job growth is mostly just because so many people are migrating there, thus raising the supply of workers and reducing wages (as also seen in the high number of minimum wage jobs.) Same statistics, different idea. I would be inclined to go with Krugman because his argument makes more sense (the blogger posits that people are moving to Texas to get jobs - an argument that does not make sense, given that Texas has had high population growth for ages, and that a good chunk of the growth comes from undocumented workers motivated solely by the proximity.) At any rate, the blog isn't exactly a journalistic source... Seleucus (talk) 04:47, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

The Wall Street Journal points out that, in fact, Krugman is wrong. I quote,

BLS pegs the median hourly wage in Texas at $15.14, 93% of the national average, and wages have increased at a good clip: in fact, the 10th fastest state in 2010 at 3.4%.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Starbucksian (talk • contribs) 07:49, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

The Texas economy section is written in such a way as to undermine perry's claims while maintaining a veneer of objectivity. Job GROWTH in texas is off the charts and is very much a function of the states pro-business policies. The high number of min wage jobs is a plus as it shows young workers flocking to Texas, the health insurance statistic is meaningless unless the high number of illegals in texas is considered..... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.26.159.130 (talk) 17:37, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Wait, so minimum wage jobs are a plus because it shows the large amount of young (a good chunk of whom are undocumented) workers flocking to Texas, but health insurance is meaningless since it shows a large amount of young (a good chunk of whom are undocumented) workers flocking to Texas? 141.211.231.229 (talk) 19:29, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

In any case, it's fairly one sided. It doesn't actually list any of Perry's claims or rebuttals to any of the information. It's pretty much a criticism section without any balance, so we need to improve it or integrate it into other parts of the article that discuss his job growth claims. Morphh ^(talk) 16:33, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

• Interesting article that puts alot of the information into context . ZHurlihee (talk) 17:26, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

• • Perry just sent this out, which he links to an article by the Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas. Probably good info for balance. Morphh ^(talk) 18:00, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

"The problem here isn’t just that Perry has the wrong answer. The more meaningful problem is that Perry doesn’t seem to know how to even formulate an answer. He starts with a proposition in his mind (abstinence-only education is effective), and when confronted with evidence that the proposition appears false (high teen-pregnancy rates), the governor simply hangs onto his belief, untroubled by evidence. As Jon Chait put it, Perry seems to struggle “even to think in empirical terms"

• Perry, parties, and pragmatism washingtonmonthly.com August 19, 2011. (Featuring a very interesting v clip)
• A Portrait Of Rick Perry's Mind At Work tnr.com August 18,2011

91.4.231.207 (talk) 19:55, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Is it spelled with an A? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.234.123.137 (talk) 20:06, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Perry, as in the presidential candidate? No.

Parry, as in deflecting an opponent's sword or other type of weapon? Yes... Seleucus (talk) 20:31, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Are you thinking of this chap? Britmax (talk) 08:31, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

The explanation of Perry's "Mandatory Ultrasound Bill" says that "Before every abortion, the abortion practitioner must give an explanation of the sonogram images of the unborn child. The woman may waive this right only in cases of rape, incest, fetal abnormality, and judicial bypass for a minor."

The problem I see is that this procedure is mandatory, potentially against the woman's will, which means it is not a right, it is an obligation. I suggest an amendment of the explanation to read as follows:

"The woman has the right to waive this procedure only in cases of rape, incest, fetal abnormality, and judicial bypass for a minor."

This more accurately describes the relationship between the woman's rights and the law's force.

Mguttman (talk) 21:16, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

 Done Agreed. The former wording was ambiguous. Done. Kessy628 (talk) 21:27, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm considering whether to add a line to reflect some recent international press comment on concerns in the Perry camp that resurfacing accusations of him being gay will impact upon his campaign e.g. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2006527/Possible-Republican-presidential-candidate-Rick-Perry-battling-gay-rumours--seven-years-denial.html It seems that he went on record in 2004 to specifically refute suh allegations. Any thoughts? Contaldo80 (talk) 09:57, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

I suggest you wait, as it's unlikely to get any traction. It's certainly nothing I ever heard before. The Daily Mail does this sort of trolling on a regular basis, printing rumors to see if they're denied, admitted or ignored, and hoping they'll be picked up by other media (which now includes Wikipedia). They try get some back-and-forth going, and then they claim they "broke the story". Any reaction at all means they sell copies. Don't help them out, aka don't feed the trolls. 99.50.188.77 (talk) 19:09, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I have to agree with Contaldo80. I never heard anything like that either. Maybe you should ask yourself whether there's any actual proof that Perry was gay before you start editing wikipedia and inventing stories. In any case, it's not relevant to the article. Mardiste (talk) 21:38, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Okay, I just did a google search and yeah it's there. But it doesn't change my opinion. Nobody's every proven a single thing. Ignore the trolls who are so sure about what they think they know. Mardiste (talk) 21:42, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

I am having trouble finding the policy but I believe in a nutshell it states that unless the subject of the BLP affirms they are gay or they are outed in a major reliable source, then wikipedia does not contribute to rumor mongering and the article should remain mute on the topic. Please correct me if I am wrong or better yet provide the link to the correct policy. Veriss (talk) 04:00, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Veriss has it right. WP:BLPGOSSIP and WP:REDFLAG pretty much say this doesn't deserve inclusion from what I can tell. Kessy628 (talk) 13:45, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Hi Veriss! It was in the Washington Post. Mardiste (talk) 19:30, 16 August 2011 (UTC) http://www.slate.com/id/2266921/

The article you linked stated several times that they were rumors. Why did you link it? Veriss (talk) 22:43, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

I linked it because you asked me to link it. Please scroll up the page approximately two inches Mardiste (talk) 19:26, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

This is not something invented by the Daily Mail. The rumors have been around for a while. My recollection is that Hutchison tried to push the idea in the 2010 primary but she wanted to do so without leaving her fingerprints on it, and it didn't have much impact. Well-sourced information on that point or on the impact of the rumors on his current campaign could be included in the daughter articles (each of those campaigns already has one), but I don't see anything there that's important enough for the main bio, unless it becomes much more prominent. JamesMLane t c 04:47, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

I could care less if he's gay or not. I requested an article where he stated he was gay or a major reliable source outed him. The article you linked stated several times, in the article, they were examining rumors. Full Stop...invalid cite...you know it is...why paste it except to be silly. Why did you waste everyone's time by pasting yet another rumor mongering article? Veriss (talk) 06:24, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't know why in the hell this article is locked, but the bit in there about his environmental positions related to climate change needs to say that he believes that "a substantial number of scientists who have manipulated data so that they will have dollars rolling in to their projects."

Here is the cite: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/17/rick-perry-climate-scientists-cooking-the-books_n_929876.html

This is a key accusation by this dude on a major policy issue and needs to be included in this (rather lame) entry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.14.36.165 (talk) 02:29, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

 Done Kessy628 (talk) 02:37, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Not so fast, that's a HuffPost blog entry by what appears to be a freelance blogger. Need to be careful with HuffPost blogs appearing as articles. I know you meant well Kessy but I need to temporarily revert it until we can find other sources. Veriss (talk) 02:48, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Check lower on the page. There's a video of his speech if you want to link directly to that. Specifically look around 1 min in, and the exact quote is said. Kessy628 (talk) 03:06, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Cool, was working on the image deletion nomination reply so hadn't had time to look for alternate sources yet. Saw you already reverted. Cheers, Veriss (talk) 03:22, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks dudes for changing this--however, I think some caveat needs to be put in there that his accusations about climate science and climate scientists are not presented with reference to actual cases. There is a quote in there of this dude saying something about "every day another scientist is leaving the global warming bandwagon" and there is another quote where he says there are a "substantial number of scientists" pushing global warming for cash. These quotes are presented in the article as him "feeling" or "believing" these things. As a matter of accuracy it needs to be clarified that he is just pulling this crap from nowhere. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.14.36.165 (talk) 16:34, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Dude, your quote of "As a matter of accuracy it needs to be clarified that he is just pulling this crap from nowhere" might be an interesting avenue to explore if you could provide some citations that you are not yourself pulling this stuff out of someplace dark and scary. If not, your comments come off as just partisan. Veriss (talk) 06:38, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

This section has been tagged as uncited since June. After reading it twice, it seems to go into detail about the political misfortunes of a justice but barely relates to Perry. My inclination is that it can be reduced to a short paragraph and moved to the general section about Perry's term as Gov. or removed completely. In what ever form it takes it of course needs to be sourced or removed soon. Veriss (talk) 22:26, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

I've been looking for sources in my free time for that section, and I've found limited nonpartisan, non-blog sources detailing it. It may be better to remove it completely, unless someone can find mainstream sources. Kessy628 (talk) 22:30, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Over a week and no improvement. I'll just delete it. Veriss (talk) 06:40, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

The "Governor" section has gotten huge. Do you think it's time to move it into a sub-article and replace with a summary? That seems to be standard practice for articles like this, such as Barack Obama or Sarah Palin. --Coemgenus (talk) 13:42, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

I think yours is a good suggestion but that for now the article is currently too unstable to consider that option yet. Veriss (talk) 06:47, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

The Texas Observer is a very good source for what's going on in Texas regarding Mr Perry http://www.texasobserver.org/the-perry-trail

It's already in the article. Look under the external links section, local coverage. Kessy628 (talk) 02:18, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

The page linked above is subtitled Investigating Texas' Longest Serving Governor. A popup signed Susan Longley, President, Texas Democracy Foundation, Publisher of The Texas Observer came up when I clicked on that link, saying, "Texas needs a progressive watchdog more than ever. All around Texas, The Texas Observer uncovers injustice and corruption with a fiercely independent spirit — and a big ol' dollop of wit." The The Texas Observer article says, "The non-profit magazine is nonpartisan, but the publication has historically been an advocate for liberal politics.", citing this. They might or might not be a WP:RS source re Perry (I have no idea), but they don't appear to be nonpartisan. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 02:32, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Well, by the same token I could say that (for instance) the Wall Street Journal is nonpartisan, but it's historically been an advocate for conservative politics. Still, the WSJ is a WP:RS.

I would say that the Texas Observer looks like a WP:RS, as it's a publication with editorial oversight, and it's won a fair number of awards. Additionally, there doesn't seem to be any major controversies/misreportings in the past (at least, none listed on their WP page.) I would be cautious though not to rely solely upon it for sourcing, if it makes an unlikely-sounding claim.Seleucus (talk) 04:44, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

I did most of the work on the external links and will take any blame if needed. Though I did not do an academic survey of each link, I added the links that were requested by editors and made sure there was a rough representation of both liberal leaning and conservative leaning sources and that the links were well organized to aid the readers. If I was asked to take a scientific wild assed guess, I would guess that the liberal leaning links outweigh the conservative at least slightly. Veriss (talk) 06:55, 28 August 2011 (UTC)