Talk:Rick Perry/Archive 4

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Archive 1Archive 2Archive 3Archive 4

Merge Economy and Fiscal Policy?

Per the discussion above about expanding the economy section it's increasingly clear that the section cannot be expanded with out getting bogged down in a quagmire of campaign claims and counterclaims. I propose that the Economy section be placed as is under the Fiscal Policy section, which would then be renamed Economic Policy. Brmull (talk) 05:30, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

We're suppose to be converting the entire Governor of Texas section to a summary style anyway. There should be no Fiscal Policy or Economy section in this article. Any discussion with regard to it's detailed contents should be handled on Governorship of Rick Perry. Morphh (talk) 13:14, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
Agree. Brmull (talk) 21:58, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Rick Perry as Governor of Texas - a copy & paste move which deleted material here & lost the page history

This new article is a problem. First, where's the discussion here to remove all the material to a new article? Secondly, as it stands it is copyvio because it's lost all its contribution history. See Wikipedia:Moving_a_page#Fixing_cut_and_paste_moves - it's got to be fixed by someone if it is agreed that this was a good move. I'm also not sure about the title. Dougweller (talk) 06:09, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

It's not a coy/paste move, it's a split. It may not have the proper contribution history, but splits are allowed. See #Sub-articles?, above. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 09:20, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
The move was inappropriate and undiscussed. The Political views section of this article was gutted by the move, with the editor responsible for the move deciding for himself which subsections stayed and which ones were deleted ("moved"). The entire move was unnecessary and should be undone. ROG5728 (talk) 09:47, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
I've undone it and changed the new article to a redirect here pending discussion. Yes, splits are allowed but you still need to do them properly, and as it was done it's also copyvio. If the article is to be split it should be done through a discussion and in a way which gives us two sensible articles, probably with some duplicated material. Dougweller (talk) 09:55, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
The discussion is taking place a few sections up Organization_of_article. Morphh (talk) 16:04, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
Hm, I see. But I don't seem to be the only one not happy with it. What seems to have been agreed is that "the next step would be to lay out what goes where. And there is the challenge of writing good summary paragraphs in the main article, summarizing the content of the daughter article". Not that the next step would be a copy, delete and paste leaving the problems I mention above. Dougweller (talk) 16:07, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
Ya, I think we have some agreement that the article is becoming too long and the Governorship of Rick Perry would be a good sub-article, but haven't discussed the transition. Guess a couple editors are being WP:BOLD and trying to get things done, figuring we'd work the summary out as we go. Either way, I'm sure we'll get it strait. :) Morphh (talk) 16:15, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
I started the sub-article this morning based on the conversation above -- I didn't realize there was a similar conversation going on here. Having a sub-article is uncontroversial -- many, many biographical articles have them, including Barack Obama, Sarah Palin, and John McCain. What will no doubt generate controversy is reducing the "Governor" section of this article to a summary. --Coemgenus (talk) 16:33, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
You were the second person to do this! Anyway, the only controversial thing would be how to do it. See Wikipedia:Summary style which describes how it should be done, and especially Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia which deals with the problem of copyvio (which the sub-article technically is at the moment, will you please fix this?). As talk page histories get archived, deleted, etc. I always recommend a null edit (just add a space somewhere and an edit summary saying 'Null edit, this article was copied from whatever). Dougweller (talk) 17:01, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

I had no idea attribution would be an issue. I made the null edit as you recommended. --Coemgenus (talk) 17:50, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. It took me a while to figure this out also, but I've seen at least one editor blocked, but then he was refusing to do this. Dougweller (talk) 18:00, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
Yes, it's a mess and has to be cut and summarized substantially. Plus there probably have been improvements here that need to be moved over. It's called a big job. Who wants to take it on?? (Later note User:Coemgenus said on Governorship article he'll try.) CarolMooreDC 16:28, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
I just took a moment to review the entire article after the summary style conversion work and I think that over all the editors did a good job. The article was much too long before forcing the reader to wade/skim through much too much local detail to get the gist. The article is still fairly long at 80k. Good job, that task was not easy. Veriss (talk) 03:18, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Stem cells

http://blog.chron.com/rickperry/2011/10/perry-touts-stem-cell-therapy/ Questions raised over legality of Perry’s stem cell treatments

Which section does this go under, personal life or health care policy? Hcobb (talk) 18:12, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
Why is the Houston Chronicle not considered a proper source for the Governor of Texas?

c.f.:

Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Statements_of_opinion

Hcobb (talk) 20:38, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

"N*ggerhead" hunting camp

This is all over the news, but nowhere on this page, because the slightest mention is reverted. Hcobb (talk) 20:55, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Any contentious claims made in a BLP must be strongly sourced. I noted that the WaPo article which seems to have been one source for the HuffPo opinion piece given as the cite might be usable, but that the claim must be precisely worded in accord with facts in that article. I am sorry if you feel this is censorship in any way, it is just required by Wikipedia policies. Cheers. Collect (talk) 21:14, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
I normally don't get too involved in overtly political discourse but this issue needs to be addressed right away. I'll provide some sources from a few of the more liberal oriented papers to get things started:
Need some conservative commentary to balance things out. Let's do this right. Veriss (talk) 04:09, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a debating society. The aim is to write BLPs conservatively (not in the political sense of the word) and to that end WP:BLP has specific rules. One of which is that contentious claims must be strongly sourced, and another is that material of minor significance should be given weight only in proportion to its significance. Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:36, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

I really don't understand your objection. I provided three WaPost, two NYTimes and one LA Times article as potential sources. What about those sources is not strong? I recognized those three sources are seen by some as having a liberal viewpoint so I suggested that sources from more conservative reliable media, such as the Washington Times, be considered to keep a balance. Veriss (talk) 03:38, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Comment: I don't think the paragraph belongs in the "Presidential Campaign" section. I'm not sure where it should go. If there was a "Controversy" section, I'd say put it there, but there isn't one. -- Adjwilley (talk) 21:28, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure that it belongs there as well but since it appears that he and his family have been associated with the camp since 1983, basically his entire political career, it doesn't really belong in the personal section either. I don't think controversy sections are encouraged so one shouldn't be made. Veriss (talk) 03:30, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
Controversy sections are common on Wikipedia. How about "Hunting camp controversy"? Here is another article:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/behind-the-rick-perry-hunting-camp-story/2011/10/07/gIQAbNvzTL_story.html --Timeshifter (talk) 14:06, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
Find me the controversy section on Barack Obama and we will look at adding one here.--JOJ Hutton 14:25, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
Policy: According to Wikipedia founder, Jim Wales on the policy page Wikipedia: Criticism

"The best approach to incorporating negative criticism into the encyclopedia is to integrate it into the article, in a way that does not disrupt the article's flow. The article should be divided into sections based on topics, timeline, or theme – not viewpoint. Negative criticism should be interwoven throughout the topical or thematic sections. Creating a "Criticism" section exacerbates point-of-view problems, and is not encyclopedic."

There is a much more in depth discussion about it on that page but the take-away is that dedicated controversy sections are often just potential dumping grounds, adversely affect due weight and are disencouraged. Veriss (talk) 02:44, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Comment: Here's my two cents on the matter. Does this belong in an article about Rick Perry? Yes, it is a big deal. Does this belong in his biography? Not really. I'd personally say lets put this in his presidential campaign article and call it a day. Kessy628 (talk) 17:19, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

I think it does belong in his biography. It is not an isolated gaffe or oopsie that happened while on the campaign trail last month. It appears to have been part and parcel to his whole 28-year political career. Many will feel that his association with it reflects on his humility, wisdom, judgement and commonsense; if not also his capacity for awareness of racial issues. It is part of Rick Perry the person and the career politician, not just the 2012 campaign. Veriss (talk) 02:19, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
Actually most in the media have already moved on. Its really a non-story compared to attending a racist church, which also is not in anyone's biography.--JOJ Hutton 02:45, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
Let's be careful to keep our comments centered on the point at hand, and not make snide political remarks about what is and isn't in another wiki page. What is or is not added should be based on wiki policy, not a political tit for tat POV pushing. 204.65.34.39 (talk) 22:08, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Subprime Perry

http://www.boston.com/news/local/new_hampshire/articles/2011/10/03/perry_bet_big_on_tax_grants_to_subprime_lenders/

Is the AP a reliable source anymore? Hcobb (talk) 13:53, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

The AP churns out a lot of stories that are heavily abridged by their subscribing media outlets. So the answer to your question is that it depends. The Washington Post editors did a much more in depth analysis of the same article that appears to be more balanced then the abridged boston.com article and would be a better starting point for research.
The WaPo version includes context such as motives for governors, that caps were put in place for Texas loans, some enterprise funds were contractually recouped from Countrywide and that his Attorney General conducted investigations. If it doesn't become a national campaign issue then it may be best to present it in the Governorship sub-article. Veriss (talk) 04:02, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

WP:3RR

(An Editor) has been officially warned about that policy and the fact that anyone could likely report the current apparent violation at WP:AN/EW. Cheers. Collect (talk) 01:00, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Wow, and I was worrying that I had become too confrontational regarding this article. Sir, you just called out an editor by name on the talk pages. That is really not good. I won't insult you by pasting in the WP:Links concerning AGF that say we shouldn't do that as you are an experienced editor with almost 20k edits and surely know about them. I have taken a couple breaks from this article, perhaps you might consider one as well. Veriss (talk) 07:49, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
Neutrally worded notices are not "attacks." I have made few edits to this article other than to follow WP:BLP requirements which some seem to forget. Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:01, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Policy on the English Civil War

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/10/12/8279640-perry-commits-post-debate-gaffe-on-revolutionary-war

What section does support for the English Civil War go under? Hcobb (talk) 15:45, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Prolly as "really important" as someone saying there are 57 states. The English Civil War was in the 17th century. Wikipedia has enough totally unimportant stuff that it need not seek out further unimportant stuff. `Collect (talk) Collect (talk) 18:29, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
Perry appears to be referring to the American Revolution, and not the English Civil War. -Darouet (talk) 22:08, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
It looks like a simple slip of the tongue rather than a significant gaffe. Unless the story gets more traction it'd be too trivial to add. If it does get more attention it'd belong in the campaign article.   Will Beback  talk  22:27, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
I'd say it's gotten enough coverage to be a notable gaffe, in the campaign section. But I wouldn't spend more than a sentence on it, and one might want to put it in context of it being notable based on other historical gaffes Perry has made (Texas secession, etc).204.65.34.39 (talk) 22:10, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Article needs improvement

This article needs improvement. Step back for a moment and think of what a biography is. Then look at the article. There is too much emphasis on the NRA giving him a A or he opposes Obamacare (but he is a state governor, which has no say). Why not include his opinion on Hawaii Five-O or Sudoku? See, let's focus on his biography.

I will let others make suggestions first. This is to show that I am trying to improve Wikipedia, not have a political agenda for or against the man. Only if there are no suggestions will I start adding and deleting. BAMP (talk) 18:13, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree with BAMP. This article needs a lot of work, especially in the "Personal life" section. I understand that Anita Thigpen Perry has a very accomplished career and appears to be a very successful person by her own merits, but her professional life should not be the dominant material for a link to her husband's personal life. It makes it seem as though perhaps he has little to no personal life whatsoever, and makes me wonder if this information was crammed in here to hide that fact and make his article longer; this would be a poor, transparent attempt to make him look better. It would be better not to have the section here at all. I do not know much about Rick Perry. That is why I came to this page in the first place. I was very disappointed. I am sorry BAMP that I cannot give more information to improve this article. It is looking like no one else has information either. You may have to delete it down to a self sustaining size. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EdwardGindel (talk • contribs) 21:24, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

In a BLP - the claims must actually be relevant to the person

Wpiki with 22 edits seems bent on adding material which in no way has a direct connection to Perry. I suggest that this be dealt with sternly on this talk page. Cheers. Collect (talk) 02:02, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

No, not "sternly on this talk page". The editor in question has edited this article and this article only, with zero talk page edits. There is no indication the editor will read or respond to anything here. Each inappropriate edit should result in the appropriate edit. For material that is not about Perry, the appropriate warning is for original research. I have just tagged the editor with {{subst:Uw-nor1|Rick Perry}}. Once the editor has racked up four of these, take them to Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against vandalism for a block. - SummerPhD (talk) 04:09, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
EW warning now given to him (he had one from me last month as well). Cheers. Collect (talk) 14:13, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Governorship of Rick Perry

Since we have such an article, can we chop down everything about it to a paragraph or so with the big reference to the article in question? Anything more would be duplication and cherry picking. Hcobb (talk) 14:13, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

On 7 October, I cut the section down from 82k (12k larger than the actual separate article dedicated to the topic) to 23k, although it was doubtlessly expanded some since then. My intention was not to "cherry pick", but to retain the information that seemed most significant while presenting it more compactly and to cut out unnecessary details, as well as statements that had no reliable citation. I don't think it's "cherry picking" to make a judgment that some events and actions are more significant than others. I have no particular opinion about whether the section should be reduced further; I simply wanted to provide you with background on the state of this section that you don't appear to be aware of. Theoldsparkle (talk) 20:46, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

New doctors

The WaPo article states: Medical rolls increased by 24 percent since 2003, while Texas’ population was soaring by 20 percent during the decade. Any claim made in this article which implies that grwoth per capita in medical coverage did not occur is a misuse of the WaPo source, as it does not make such a claim. (I find that a 20% increase in population is "soaring" while a 24% increase in doctors is merely an "increase" to be odd. <g>) Cheers. Collect (talk) 16:37, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand your objection to the text I suggested, which was: "However, state data suggests the resulting increase in access to medical care has fallen far short of what Perry had predicted." That text, which has nothing to do with the number of doctors, appears to me to be exactly what the Associated Press article (not originating with the Post) is saying: "[T]he bulk of that influx has come in larger cities where health care was already abundant, leaving large rural swaths of Texas still without doctors... Health care shortages have plagued rural Texas for decades and few regions struggle more than West Texas... Perry made access to health care a major argument for tort reform... Perry told a New York audience how three out of five Texas counties lacked an obstetrician...Eight years later, that ratio is the same." The point of the article is that the areas that struggled for access to medical care before tort reform, are still struggling, regardless of whether there are more doctors in the state. "State data suggests the resulting increase in access to medical care has fallen far short of what Perry had predicted" does not misrepresent that point.
That being said, I would be open to including some mention that the number of doctors has increased, perhaps: "While the number of doctors registered in the state increased, state data suggests the resulting increase in access to medical care has fallen far short of what Perry had predicted." (And, to address your aside about "soaring" vs. "increase": 20% is a very high rate of population growth. Since you would naturally expect the medical rolls to also increase by 20%, commensurate with the population, a rate of 24% in the medical rolls isn't as impressive as the 20% rate for the population.) Theoldsparkle (talk) 19:24, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
WP:BLP requires claims to actually be relevant to the person involved. The proposed claim was : However, state data suggests the resulting increase in access to medical care has fallen far short of what Perry had predicted. This claim is not borne out by the source. In fact, WaPo states the number of doctors has increased by 24% while the population increased only 20%. By any standard, this means there are more doctors per capita than before. As Texas has increasingly urbanized, it is not amazing that tiny rural counties, some with populations under 25,000 (which is a tiny population to support any specialist physician anywhere in the US) number roughly 198 (roughly 2/5 counties would never have a specialist physician under any reasonable circumstances). - and none of them would in any part of the US be remotely likely to have a specialist doctor! In fact, some counties have under 100 total population - so playing the "number of counties" game when the article clearly states that the number of doctors rose faster than the population would be an abuse of Wikipedia. Cheers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Collect (talk • contribs)
1. Increased access to medical care is not the same thing as increased numbers of doctors. If Texas has enough doctors in Houston, and not enough doctors in Fort Worth, and a thousand more doctors move to Houston, there has been no increase in access to medical care, because nobody is able to access medical care who wasn't previously able to. 2. Perry said that tort reform would significantly increase access to medical care. One example he gave of poor access was that three out of five Texas counties have no obstetrician. 3. The AP article says that tort reform has not significantly increased access to medical care. One example it gives is that the situation Perry described as inadequate has not changed. (If it's not a problem that 3 out of 5 counties have no obstetrician, why did Perry bring it up as an example of inadequate access?) 4. The statement "State data suggests the resulting increase in access to medical care has fallen short of what Perry had predicted" is an objective summary of the preceding facts. (I revised "far short" to just "short" -- that was really another editor's phrasing, not mine.) 5. In an undoubtedly futile effort toward compromise despite no indication of any interest from your end, my new proposed text would be: "While the number of doctors registered in the state increased, an Associated Press analysis of state data suggested the resulting gain in access to medical care has fallen short of what Perry had predicted." Theoldsparkle (talk) 23:00, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
The article specified rural areas - like the county with 65 total population. The article also specified the 24% increase in doctors - so eliding that in order to make a political editorial point is contrary to WP:NPOV and WP:RS as well as violating WP:BLP. Cheers - I don't particularly care for Perry, but he dang well is entitled to a proper WP-policy compliant BLP. Collect (talk) 23:33, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
It's pretty impressive how you can continue to pretend, without apparent shame, that you're unable to understand the difference between an increase in the number of doctors and an increase in access -- even when I've suggested that we refer to both points in the same sentence! The distinction really isn't very complicated, but it is essential to understanding the article's point that, while the number of doctors has increased significantly, the access to those doctors has not increased significantly. (Although maybe your policy references are meant to imply that the article's point shouldn't be mentioned because the Associated Press is unreliable because a source with a neutral POV wouldn't try to make that point. But apparently it would be okay with you if we only used the part about the number of doctors increasing, so I dunno.) I don't personally care that much whether the content is included or not, and since nobody else has chosen to support it, at this point I'm planning to move on from this discussion/tutorial in critical reading skills. Theoldsparkle (talk) 21:14, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

It was an Obama moment!

More information WP:NOTAFORUM ...
Close

A&M Transcript

The article's reference to a 2.5 GPA seems to be second- or third- hand.

The primary reference on Perry's academic performance seems to be: Rick Perry's College Transcript: A Lot Of Cs And Ds, by Jason Cherkis at http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/05/rick-perry-college-transcript_n_919357.html First Posted: 8/5/11 12:57 PM ET Updated: 8/5/11 05:18 PM ET, or equivalently http://www.scribd.com/doc/61684192/Rick-Perry-s-Texas-A-M-Transcript CountMacula (talk) 04:53, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

That topic was discussed at excruciating length a while ago; see: Talk:Rick Perry/Archive 3#Rick Perry's G.P.A.. I gather that the consensus – not too surprisingly – was to follow Wikipedia policies and use the number printed in a reliable secondary source rather than making assumptions about A&M's computation methodology, possible adjustments, and procedure for combining two separate grade-point scales used during his time there in order to compute an average ourselves. There were also some questions about the validity and provenance of the document posted online. Fat&Happy (talk) 05:32, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
Okay. I don't see that the exact number is of extreme importance. But I think we could afford a reference to what has to be considered the most telling record of his academic performance. It is not as if it would be worthless clutter. It can just sit there at the bottom of the article with one little superscript in the main text.CountMacula (talk) 08:02, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
As to provenance and validity, I don't see that the putative transcript should be more dubious than the Texas Tribune article mentioning both his GPA and the unbelievable story about the M80 coming up through a toilet. I hear neither of Perry suing Huffington over a forged transcript nor of anybody being imprisoned for blowing off somebody's genitals with a giant firecracker.CountMacula (talk) 08:02, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
In the US it is virtually impossible for a "public figure" to win a libel suit - so they are exceedingly rare. Lack of a libel suit does not mean anything about the "truth" of printed allegations. Collect (talk) 13:05, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

many sources say perry is out of the running after his debate freeze

Rick Perry scrambles to recover from debate 'oops'

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/politics/perry-watch/headlines/20111110-rick-perry-scrambles-to-recover-from-debate-oops.ece

And Mark McKinnon, the media consultant to Bush, wrote for the on-line Daily Beast that Perry had officially disqualified himself for the presidency.

"Perry is now a dead man walking," McKinnon wrote. "Once they’re laughing at you, you’re finished. Perry supporters Wednesday night were running out in the dark and pulling out yard signs."

The reaction followed from a moment in the second half of a CNBC-sponsored debate when Perry spoke about slashing federal spending.

"I will tell you, it is three agencies of government when I get there that are gone. Commerce, Education, and the -- what’s the third one there? Let’s see."

After struggling for more than 30 seconds, searching notes, looking to opponents, Perry still could not recover.

"The third agency of government I would -- I would do away with, Education, the...Commerce and, let’s see. I can’t. The third one, I can’t. Sorry. Oops," Perry said. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jack Paterno (talk • contribs) 02:13, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

In a recent debate, Perry mentioned this mental lapse. It is becoming important for the article. Jack Paterno (talk) 21:35, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

What others say about him doesn't matter. As far as the event, it is mentioned in the Rick Perry presidential campaign, 2012 article. --Musdan77 (talk) 23:01, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Gore Campaign

Last I heard, it was revealed that Perry was NOT the Gore '88 campaign chair in Texas. The article cited from Politifact has since been updated (see here) and the other one is dubious at best. I didn't want to change it unilaterally without discussion, so I will wait for a couple days to change it. Because honestly, it seems to me that, AT BEST, this sentence "Perry supported Al Gore in the 1988 Democratic presidential primaries and chaired the Gore campaign in Texas" should be changed to something like "Perry supported Al Gore in the 1988 Democratic presidential primaries." Or, possibly "Perry supported Al Gore in the 1988 Democratic presidential primaries and served in the Texas campaign in an un-specified capacity". What do you think? Vyselink (talk) 20:07, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Well, it's been awhile, and no one has said anything, so I changed it using updated information. Vyselink (talk) 19:49, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Reference to Glebe edit

I removed this statement from the bottom of the section on the 2012 Presidential Campaign: "Glebe resident(sic) are fond of their dilapidated tram sheds, and are not happy to see them traduced in this way." Perhaps it could be replaced by a similar statement which includes citations and NPOV? — Preceding unsigned comment added by SoUnDoLe (talk • contribs) 09:48, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Death Penalty NPOV

The current wording of the section reads like a campaign commercial for Rick Perry, "bucking the system and killing people." While I'm actually a fan of Rick Perry for President and don't really care one way or another about the death penalty as long as the people being put to death are actually, you know ...•guilty•, this doesn't do wikipedia justice to how disputed this information is, by the vast majority of the scientific community. Pär Larsson (talk) 20:58, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand your contention that the section is pro-Perry; any section which accurately presents a politician's position and actions on an issue will be seen in a positive light by those agreeing with the stand and in a negative light by those on the opposing side.
The article factually states:
  • He supports the death penalty.
  • He vetoed a law restricting its use.
  • Texas has executed 200+ people during his term as governor.
  • He has been criticized for not intervening in some high-profile cases.
  • He has commuted the sentence of one person and pardoned another, both on the recommendation of the appropriate commission.
The one objection I could see here would be that the two cases in the last point seem a bit random; it would be nice if reliable sources could be found to flesh out questions such as "in how many cases has the commission recommended a sentence reduction of some type?" and "in how many cases has Perry followed that recommendation?"
In the past, others here have pointed out Texas' constitutional limits on the ability of the governor to unilaterally intervene in capital cases. Those posts have generally consisted of synthesis, and are not in the article for that reason. Similarly, any opinions of the "scientific community" – or the "religious community", the general "anti–death penalty community", or any other community – on the death penalty itself belong in the article on capital punishment; they are irrelevant here unless Perry's actions or positions are specifically addressed in a widely reported communique from that community. Fat&Happy (talk) 21:58, 12 November 2011 (UTC)


No SYNTH is needed per which is an official page of the Texas government and is thus RS for this.
The governor has the authority to grant clemency upon the written recommendation of a majority of the Board of Pardons and Paroles.
that is, he can not act in cases not recommended by that board. Cheers. Collect (talk) 22:54, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

It's also important to site sources, which I believe needs to be done for the second paragraph of the death penalty section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MademoiselleBelle (talk • contribs) 00:02, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

I actually think it reads negatively for Perry. It makes him seem like the biggest Pro-Death Penalty conservative of all time. It should be written to express his view with facts showing both sides. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.11.142.228 (talk) 00:28, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Crime

The quote in the reference saying Perry has done more than any other governor for the Innocence project goes on to say, "Unless, of course, it involves the death penalty. On the death penalty, Rick Perry has a profound mental block."

I know that there is a separate section on the death penalty, but it is misleading to have half of a quotation in one section. It makes it seem like the quote says that Perry has done more than any other governor for the innocence project, and this is not what the quote says or what it implies. It is therefore taken badly out of context.

Createangelos (talk) 21:32, 9 December 2011 (UTC)


Further to this, I would like to give an analogy to explain my exact point. Suppose someone said "The head and feet of a hippo weigh less than a gazelle does," and this were quoted in Wikipedia as "a hippo weighs less than a gazelle does."

There may or may not be a hippo weighing less than a gazelle, but my point is that the quotation does not say anything about the relative weight of a hippo versus that of a gazelle, it is a neutral statement on that point, only comparing the weight of the head and feet of a hippo to the weight of a gazelle.

The fact that the article has a separate section about crime and a separate section about the death penalty is fine, but again that does not justify the mis-application of the quotation, any more than putting the quote 'A hippo weighs more than a gazelle' into a magazine about butchery and exotic meats would justify the deletion of part of the quotation. It is not more true, in the context of sale of animal parts, that an entire hippo weighs more than an entire gazelle, than it would be true in any other context. If it is true it is true, if it is not true, it is not. It is just not what the un-excerpted sentence says. Deleting part of a quotation to change the meaning is not unconditionally corrected by using the truncated quotation in a more limited context.

92.26.60.81 (talk) 11:50, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

OK I have edited this to include the rest of the Blackburn quotation. I admit that this is not ideal as in essence two sections include a quote about the death penalty, I'm certainly OK if someone has a better solution than just including the full Blackburn quote in the Crime section. But again to stress that the subdivision of material between sections is a more minor issue than a quotation taken out of context in a way that alters its meaning.

A better solution might be to combine the two sections, or else to replace the Blackburn quote with separate quotations that separately deal with punishment of crimes through incarceration and through death.

The layout of the article isn't ideal but questions of layout should take a back seat to questions of how much of a quotation is relevant to the meaning of what is said.


Createangelos (talk) 17:56, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Edit request on 11 December 2011

This article deliberately misquotes Rick Perry's recent 'Strong' Campaign, only quoting the first part of Rick Perry's sentence, "There's something wrong when gays are allowed to openly serve in the military, and your kids can't openly celebrate Christmas."...............just quoting "There's something wrong when gays are allowed to openly serve in the military."

This is not objective, and represents the editor's critical view of Rick Perry which might biase the opinions of others by misquoting.

Minho576 (talk) 18:16, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for bringing this to our attention. The quote has been fixed.--William S. Saturn (talk) 19:43, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Edit request 2011/12/12

After the line about the 'Strong' campaign, it would be nice to mention that "It was widely parodied". Here's a reference. http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-rick-perry-strong-ad-spawns-parodies-20111212,0,2863984.story 97.112.203.215 (talk)

At most, this would belong in the campaign article.   Will Beback  talk  04:36, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Introduction - slight change proposed

I cannot edit the article. I propose a slight alteration to the introduction to move the present sentence "Perry is the longest serving governor in Texas state history" to run directly on from two other statements about his length of tenure. It would look like this (with the changes highlighted here in bold).

A Republican, Perry was elected Lieutenant Governor of Texas in 1998 and assumed the governorship in December 2000 when then-governor George W. Bush resigned to become President of the United States. Perry was elected to full gubernatorial terms in 2002, 2006 and 2010. With a tenure in office to date of 25 years, 88 days, Perry is the longest continuously serving current U.S. governor, the second longest serving current U.S. governor after Terry Branstad of Iowa, and is the longest serving governor in Texas state history. Perry served as Chairman of the Republican Governors Association in 2008 (succeeding Sonny Perdue of Georgia) and again in 2011.[1] Due to his long tenure, he is the only governor in modern Texas history to have appointed at least one person to every eligible state office, board, or commission position (as well as to several elected offices to which the governor can appoint someone to fill an unexpired term, such as six of the nine current members of the Texas Supreme Court).

One of you auto-confirmed editors can do it. It might be noted that the statements about his tenure records, and his having made appointments to every possible office, should have cited references. Darcyj (talk) 07:27, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Small suggestion - instead of saying he took office "in December 2000" - why not state that he was sworn into office on December 21, 2000. I mean isn't this supposed to be an online encyclopedia? Isn't specificity and fact the kind of thing people want when they come here? Trevor Sinclair — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.99.46.116 (talk) 02:45, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Archive.com

The linked page off archive.com is not a reliable source for the assertion that he has Choctaw ancestry. Firstly it is anonymous, secondly these pages are not vetted, thirdly they are not independently published, fourthly the writer (unknown) is not a professional in their field.Wjhonson (talk) 04:08, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

transcript

So far I can not find any reliable source for his "transcript" other than HuffPo ascribing it to an anonymous source. This is less than required by WP:BLP at this point. The NYT simply calls it a "transcript circulated on the Internet" which means the NYT seems to have doubts as to its provenance. Collect (talk) 19:22, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Rick Perry: Tort Reform Hypocrite

http://kansascity.injuryboard.com/defective-and-dangerous-products/rick-perry-tort-reform-hypocrite.aspx?googleid=297120

I don't think this is quite up to BLP RS standards, but somebody notable will most likely point this out soon. Hcobb (talk) 16:15, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

"Send Troops Back To Iraq"

His remark about sending U.S. troops back to Iraq ought to be mentioned on here. 70.253.88.172 (talk) 20:36, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

lede

Why is there nothing about his strong anti-gay stance in the lede? He's one of the most anti-gay politicians in recent memory. Pass a Method talk 21:57, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

No other of his political stances are in the lead. Is there a reason why this particular political stance should be in the lead and not any other?--JOJ Hutton 22:21, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

inaccuracy in selected "strong" quote

the article claims that Rick Perry, in his ad "Strong", says that "children cannot openly celebrate Christmas", however, the actual line he says is that "children cannot openly celebrate Christmas or pray in school.". I don't claim this needs to be edited in, but am just pointing out that the selected quote does not capture the entire message that Rick Perry was conveying in his sentence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.187.170.82 (talk) 21:47, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Rick Perry isn't pro-life

Someone who approved 200+ executions (including the innocent, juveniles and mentally disabled) cannot be considered or described as "pro-life". Therefore, I suggest changing the "pro-life" phrase in the health section to something like "opposed to abortion rights". 38.111.32.82 (talk) 22:11, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

While I may tend to agree with your sentiment, there's no denying that the term "pro life" has come to mean anti-abortion (and the legalization of it). --Musdan77 (talk) 03:48, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
Seeing as the terms 'Pro-Life' and 'Anti-abortion' are analogous to one another, I don't see the substitution as necessarily improper. I do understand Musdan77's point about how the term "pro-life" has been used by the political class and has the general understanding that he states. K♪monkey@('_')@ Talk⇉✌ 04:18, 26 April 2012 (UTC)


Off Topic: Request for Comment on Mitt Romney

I figure since Perry has ended his presidential campaign that wiki editors that have followed the Perry article can be good neutral voices on the discussion page of the Mitt Romney article, Mitt Romney was technically registered as a Democrat for a brief time. Any feedback would be appreciated! K♪monkey@('_')@ Talk⇉✌ 04:20, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

This Entire Entry Should Be Heavily Pruned

The presentation and interpretation of information in this entry is so politically and philosophically biased that it is something you would expect to read in the /r politics area of reddit. I doubt the 57% of Texans who elected Mr. Perry over his Democrat opponent see him as this article portrays him. For example the budget "deficits" are juxtaposed with corporate tax breaks in a obvious manner such as to create a cause-and-effect relationship. The use of the term "deficit" is in itself a biased term, since Texas, unlike the US government, cannot operate with a deficit. That the press chooses to be inaccurate in its use of this term is no reason why wikipedia should allow political bias to creep into its usage.

Failing a substantial re-write of this entire entry, it should be reduced to a minimum of non-controversial information and eliminating obvious political bias. Carrellk (talk) 22:25, 13 January 2013 (UTC)carrellk

After seeing who added the Deficit section I am not suprised at all. I am sure there is more that could be done, but you are correct about the blatent POV pushing within that section. Arzel (talk) 22:40, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
How true, but this is wikipedia; generally what possibility is there that a non-Dem could get unbiased treatment; no one who takes reality seriously can generally take wikipedia seriously. 192.182.40.241 (talk) 18:00, 3 May 2013 (UTC)RussD

Perry blames Satan: Separation of religious and civic institutions

"“Satan runs across the world with his doubt and with his untruths and what have you and one of the untruths out there that is driven is that people of faith should not be involved in the public arena,” Perry said during the call on Tuesday, organized by the Rev. Rick Scarborough...Perry said the separation of religious and civic institutions in the U.S. began with a “narrative” that first took root in the 1960s."

Branstad?

Isn't Perry the longest serving current Governor? Branstad of Iowa, was out of office, from 1999 to 2011. GoodDay (talk) 08:51, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

These kinds of statistics do not normally have to be concurrent. Even so it would result in a strange statistic to present in any other manner. Branstad was the longest serving governor in straight years from 83-99, exceeding Perry's 12 years. To be grammatically correct for your statistic you would have to say that Perry is the longest current serving conrrent Governor. Branstad still has more time as Governor and also still has the longester consecutive time spent as governor. If Perry makes it to 18 years he could take the longest consecutive term, but it would take quite a bit of time to take over the top spot for total time. Arzel (talk) 22:50, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Death Penalty

I included the link to the Texas Board of Pardons and Paroles and the cite to their website (which, incidentally, I got from another article-- scarcely original research) because (a) it is mentioned in the very section I was editing, and it probably helps explain to readers why it's relevant that the Board issued a recommendation in the cases where Perry granted clemency, and (b) it corrects an NPOV issue, which is that the article refers to criticisms Perry received for not acting, without mentioning the constraints on his action. Please do not revert. I would be happy to discuss the issue further here to try to reach a consensus if you have concerns. DCB4W (talk) 17:12, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

It occurred to me that there ought to be a news article somewhere that said the same thing. I found it, and have added it to the current version. DCB4W (talk) 18:00, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
The news article, referring specifically to Perry, is what we need. Pulling a source that does not mention the subject of the article (Perry) and using it to explain something you feel is relevant about the subject is synthesis, which we do not allow. Without this guideline, we could state that Perry looks [insert adjective here] in the photo because red ties make men look [insert adjective here] and cite some source somewhere discussing red ties.
As it stands now, the article says something that the sources do not. The source does refer to Perry, but the article cites it regarding Perry in the Foster and Brown cases, which the article does not discuss.
We should probably use the source to discuss Perry's image as someone who "presides" over lots of executions vs. the reality that he has little say. We will need to be careful to separate it from the material on Foster and Brown so as not to imply that this necessarily applies to those cases. - SummerPhD (talk) 21:24, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
For what it's worth, I disagree with you about that constituting synthesis. By your logic, stating that President Reagan left office after two terms, followed by a statement that the Constitution limits Presidents to two terms, with a citation to the relevant constitutional provision, would constitute synthesis. Or citing a source that the F-22 can move in excess of Mach 1 without using its afterburners, and then citing another source to comment that "speeds in excess of Mach 1 without using afterburners are known as 'supercruise' capabilities" citing a source that doesn't specifically refer to the F-22 would constitute synthesis. I don't believe that is the correct application of the policy. In this article, given that the Governor of Texas NEVER can pardon without the blessing of the Board, it necessarily does apply to these cases, but I didn't actually say it did. (The "therefore C" line from the Synthesis policy is missing.) I merely included relevant data, which the reader could consider. Nonetheless, we seem to have straightened out this article reasonably well. DCB4W (talk) 17:48, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
Yes, the Reagan and F-22 examples (as you describe them) would be synthesis. The WP:SYN limitation exists, IMO, to prevent editors from adding original research in various ways. Cite the Bible saying God did whatever, cite a scientific text saying that's impossible. Hey presto, God does not exist. Cite a source saying John Smith did something, cite a source saying that's illegal. Bingo: Smith's a criminal. Wikipedia does not exist to present novel arguments about Perry's powers as governor, God's existence or Reagan's qualifying to run for a third term. If the information is relevant to the topic, there will be sources discussing the information in relation to the topic. If such sources do not exist, the information (for our purposes) is irrelevant. - SummerPhD (talk) 21:29, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
Yeah, we're just going to need to disagree on this one. See WP:SYNTHNOT. There's no "position" that my examples advance. I'd also dispute your characterization of my original edit as presenting "novel arguments," but that's water under the drawbridge now. DCB4W (talk) 17:42, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
I don't normally monitor this article; in fact, I don't recall why it's on my watchlist. But what you described as not being synthesis clearly is synthesis. Determining whether the actual juxtaposition constitutes synthesis would require more work. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:36, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
FWIW, I removed the stale -- 1 year and 7 months old -- tag. Bearian (talk) 16:40, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Rick Perry's residence

Rick Perry's residence is Barton Creek Estates neighborhood in West Austin and not the Mansion which is under renovation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joco2013 (talk • contribs) 23:47, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Really? Again? They just completed a major one a little over a year ago. Fat&Happy (talk) 00:29, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Typhoid Perry

What's the beef against reporting the return of historical diseases to Perry's Texas? Is it the sourcing? Hcobb (talk) 00:00, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

None of those sources mention Perry and one of the sources states that these diseases are likely to have been around for quite awhile. How do you come to the conclusion that they belong in this article? Your insertion of this material leads one to believe that Perry is responsible when even the sources do not make such a accusatory claim. It is almost impossible to assume good faith regarding your edit. Arzel (talk) 00:48, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

NYT editorial

Covers the indictment, and is scarcely kind to Perry, but less kind to the indictment. Collect (talk) 12:56, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

That's a great find. I've made some minor wording tweaks to make the NYT opinion conform to WP:NPOV.- MrX 14:25, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Felony indictment

I'm a little puzzled by the removal of this information from the lede and also the factual content that was removed from the body of the article in these edits. For example, why remove the penalty for the charges? Several sources have made note of it. What about the facts about the Governor's office defense? A felony indictment is not a small thing, so I see no reason to treat it as a footnote.- MrX 15:30, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

We of course need to follow the lead of reliable sources. Still those reliable sources are being stupid by reporting the statutory maximum sentence when there is realistically no chance of the accused getting such an extreme sentence even if convicted. Its misleading, but as long as its the reliable sources being misleading, its probably a lost cause to try to stop the inclusion. Monty845 16:55, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
That was generally my thought as well.- MrX 17:00, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
MrX: There is an article from a reliable source that points out several Democrats and liberals who disagree with most of what Perry believes finds the indictment to be political and weak. I put in the information with the information sourced and you removed it. That information is notable and you need to explain why you ripped all of it out without explanation. The only comment you made is that I need to talk on the talk page. There is no consensus for your edit.--NK (talk) 20:16, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
Your edit removed several sources and replaced them with other sources, I guess to support the ~40% of this content which now dismisses the seriousness of the charges and which is supported by a single article (Business Insider). This is WP:UNDUE based on what I've read in the sources.
The biggest and most inexplicable issue though is that you removed the content from the lede with explanations of "This information is in the body of the article. No justification for it to be in the lede." and "info does not belong in lede". This contravenes WP:LEDE, specifically "The lead section should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article in such a way that it can stand on its own as a concise version of the article." Please explain why you did this. I'm willing to compromise on how we present this material, and review sources with you to make sure that they're represented with due weight, but let's not simply edit war this content into obscurity. - MrX 20:40, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
No, the biggest and most inexplicable issue is the fact that you removed all attempts to place information in the article that presents the other side of the story. There is zero justification to put in the article only worst possible penalties for the charges, when the indictment only happened yesterday. Also, you removed the fact, supported by reliable sources and presented in NPOV manner, that many, many well-known Democrats and liberals have expressed their opinion that the indictment is weak and really not supported by law. You also removed without discussion, in an edit war manner, the fact that there are well-known Republicans that call the charges "partisan" and "political grandstanding". Those edits are classic edit warring and their removal violates BLP. You have provided no justification for your incorrect editing. Your editing cannot be supported. There must be the other side presented and both sides must be presented in NPOV, which you are attempting to stop. The version that you keep reverting to violates BLP and violates NPOV. Please stop violating BLP and NPOV.--NK (talk) 21:03, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
Actually there is no consensus for your removal of this material from the lede and the neutering of it in the text.Please note, more than one editor reinstated it in the lede. And it seems to me the POV editing is the removal, not the inclusion. Tvoz/talk 05:17, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
Surely the indictment is important. It belongs in the lede. But so is the reaction to it. It's a fact that even left-leaning people have found the indictment weak at best. That should be included in the lede, too. It's not fair to mention the indictment without it.MissPiggysBoyfriend (talk) 02:44, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
Interesting

We now have 71 words about the grand jury felony indictment in the body of the article and 154 words of opinions criticizing the indictment. Should 2⁄3+ of this content really consist of various opinions critical of the indictment?- MrX 18:40, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

It would appear that much of the reporting now is critical of the indictment, so that is probably about right. Arzel (talk) 19:33, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
Actually - with three of the most major liberal newspapers in the US having editorial positions on the topic, the weight is likely correct. I suppose we could add editorials on the other side, but remember the section ab initio implies it is primarily Republicans who doubted the indictment value. NPOV suggests adding the other material as there is no question the newspapers given are at the head of the class, and their editorial do not praise Perry, but only disparage the nature of the indictments. Collect (talk) 19:50, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
We likely should include all million+ circulation papers here -- I added USA Today as the paper with the widest circulation, but we should add others which opine officially. Collect (talk) 20:04, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
On further review of recent sources, it does appear that there is large amount of criticism of the indictment. I also agree that comments from editorial boards of large newspapers are worth noting.- MrX 21:51, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
I added ", including those on the American left, " to the lead, but because I don't edit politics I'm not sure if there is a better way to word that. Feel free to change/remove it as needed.--v/r - TP 01:05, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Interesting back story to the indictment

I know that the HuffPo is considered by some to be a liberal source, but this explanation and commentary is sobering , and has material that I have not read before and that is not present in the article. - Cwobeel (talk) 22:04, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

At a minimum, we need to add:

  • that Karl Rove ran his campaign for Texas agriculture commissioner in 1990, the alleged shenanigans Rove played on his behalf to discredit Hightower, as well as that Rove convinced Perry to switch parties.
  • Details about the fact that two other Texas DAs with DUI arrests, were not asked to resign and no defunding vetoes were used in these instances.

I will do some research to find additional sources, if any, on these two subjects. - Cwobeel (talk) 02:34, 21 August 2014 (UTC) - Cwobeel (talk) 02:34, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Partially done. Added info on Rove and the 1990 Texas agricultural commissioner campaign, details on Stubblefield, he presiding judge in the abuse of power case (and Perry's appointee), and Michael McCrum, the special prosecutor behind the indictment, appointed by Stubblefield Judge Bert Richardson of Bexar County, a Republican judge who was assigned to head the grand jury by Stubblefield . - Cwobeel (talk) 03:52, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Richardson appears to actually be a retired judge - and I am unsure why it was important to note that both Texas senators backed an appointment when that occurs for essentially every such appointment as an objection from a single senator from a state blocks consideration of a US Attorney appointment in practice, and there is no source for Crum's political affiliation at all. Stubblefield is at least two full steps away from Crum, and so his political affiliation is nicely irrelevant - and your added material essentially duplicates the USA Today editorial already given. I am unsure exactly what Rove has to do with all of this by the way. Was he indicted? Collect (talk) 13:24, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
Richardson is not "retired". He is a former judge of the 379th District Court in Texas, and a 2014 candidate for the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals. Regarding the importance of that material, we need to make a distinction between opinions and facts. The majority of this section was dedicated to opinions from newspapers and people, and there was almost nothing about undisputed facts. My attempt was to move this section toward facts, in addition to the opinion. - Cwobeel (talk) 14:36, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
In addition, we now include the "Republican" appointee bit three times in a single section. Are we hitting UNDUE at that point? Or just "excessive iteration"? Collect (talk) 13:46, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
Are we? How can facts be UNDUE in this context? Look at it this way: if these people were Democrats or Democratic appointees, would that not be included in the article? - Cwobeel (talk) 14:36, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Rick Perry Youtube video

I'm not going to get invested into an edit war of a topic I just don't really care about. I don't know why I am here in the first place. However, as a primary source, we cannot include the material without a 3rd party source saying that what he said has any real bearing on his overall biography.--v/r - TP 02:32, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Indictment

The lead

Texans for Public Justice

PJ Media

editorial opinion critical of indictment

Good Article status

Length of Indictment section

Split complete

Use of editorials

One person's opinion

Handling of 2014 illegal immigration surge

Perry to announce June 4, 11:30am

"Oops" Moment

Former Texas Governor Rick Perry's Birthplace

Indictment section is pretty long

Duplicate lead content

Biographies of living persons noticeboard

One-sentence paragraph

RFC about whether his presidential candidacy should be mentioned in the lead paragraph

Border Security

Top pic survey

Former Tex. Gov. Rick Perry

Sources for infobox religion?

Removing religion from infobox

External links modified

"Did poorly both times"

External links modified

Cartoon Rick Perry Image

Salary Edit

Already Confirmed as Energy Sec?

Official portrait

External links modified

add Michael Bleyzer (SigmaBleyzer) & Alex Cranberg (Aspect Energy) and Third Amigo in Ukraine fossil fuels ?

Order / wording of first paragraphs in Ukraine_scandal section

Missing critical information

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