Talk:Scientific method/Archive 23

Hi I wanted to get some more input on the recent re-add .

The Goldhaber & Nieto source does not even mention the scientific method in the whole paper and the emphasis of the paper is instead on developing a theory on photons and gravitons mass limits with respect to dark matter. The way it is cited, it looks like extrapolation and it looks like a sloppy add for the lead (looks like WP:SYN), which I think should have stronger sources than this so readers can see much more direct or relevant sources on the article topic. If the source specifically focuses on the scientific method, which is the focus of this article, can you provide a quote? The paper looks to form a theory, but it does not really focus in developing ideas specifically about the scientific method. More recent sources which are more directly relevant like "Scientific Method in Practice" by Hugh Gauch Jr. (Cambridge University Press) would be better to replace the Goldhaber & Nieto source in the lead.

The same thing with Newton's source. Can you provide a quote where he explain and emphasizes the scientific method? Rules of reasoning are not exactly about a scientific method as we understand it, but are universal things used in any fields of investigation and deriving knowledge. If the source does not say it, we cannot use it for that. If a source links the scientific method to Newton, then that source can be used. Otherwise it looks like WP:SYN.

If there was a person who could represent the scientific method directly, it could be Francis Bacon's "New Organon" or William Whewell's "The Philosophy of the Inductive Sciences, Founded Upon Their History". Since those works focused on how to secure knowledge and and directly focused on such discussions. What do you think? Huitzilopochtli1990 (talk) 07:25, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Goldhaber & Nieto is a review paper, in which a specific scientific question is surveyed from a perspective of decades of work on experiment and theory to attack that question. It does not shrink from methodological considerations, but even includes the philosophical considerations needed to advance progress toward an answer. I trust that shows us there is a spectrum of approaches to methodology, in the sense of George Polya's 'old mathematics professor' response to 'What is the difference between a method and a device?': "A method is a device I use twice." (from How To Solve It). In other words, usage defines method.

Now how does this tie in to the viewpoint of Francis Bacon or William Whewell. Bacon viewed science from that of a visitor to a New Atlantis where he watched practitioners advance their art in service to their country, as befits a Lord Chancellor. Whewell, as a practitioner, generalized from his own specific methods for measuring the tides, to science in general, in order that others might apply his specific experiences to their specific domains of definition and investigation. The commonalities include knowing 'what is known?', 'what is not known?', 'how might this be proven?'. I trust you see my point: when Socrates practiced elenchi (Socratic method), others identified it.

Francis Bacon's contribution was a rejection of Aristotelianism, his New Organon. That does not mean all contributions to science or to methods for advancing science need to be commensurate with Bacon or Whewell. When Newton listed Rules for reasoning, they were an advance in method.^[1] When investigators read some result, and improve it, that may be an advance in science, in method, or both, through usage.

I have an obligation to attend to, but I will return to complete my reply. --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 12:02, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Some comments on the two sources cited.

• From a quick look, the Goldhaber and Nieto paper does not appear to formally address their concept of scientific method, although perhaps one could infer their concept from the practice described in their paper. However, that inference would be Original Research and inadmissable on Wikipedia. If you could emend the citation to cite a specific passage where they address their scientific method, the citation might be acceptable.
• Newton's Rules of Reasoning in Philosophy (especially Rule 4 on Experimetal Philosophy) provide a clear outline of Newton's concept or scientific method, and so is a much more significant contribution to the article than Goldhaber and Nieto's paper. In my opinion, discussions by philsophically minded scientists like Newton's should bear most of the weight in this article, equally with discussions by scientifically minded philosophers like Popper, Bacon, and Aristotle. --SteveMcCluskey (talk) 17:18, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for your suggestion. I plan to select a quotation from "How to test a theory", which is Goldhaber and Nieto part I A. --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 19:37, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

Hi User:Ancheta Wis, appreciate the reply. But I have to agree with User:SteveMcCluskey on the Goldhaber and Nieto. Sure they engage in some philosophical stuff about testing and theories but the whole paper is not focused on that topic at all. It is on developing a theory on photons and gravitons with respect to dark matter. So the focus of the paper is not really relevant to the article. Not only that but why is that the first source on the article when it does not address or focus on the subject of the scientific method. Many books on biology talk about how science works (many text books have introductions on this), but they do not merit being cited in the lead of the article because as a whole they are not focused on the scientific method at all. I originally was confused about Goldhaber and Nieto because I was looking for a source on the scientific method, but when I clicked on I saw that it was mainly about dark matter. The sources should formally address the topic of the scientific method in the lead. It is what most readers will see.

With respect to Newton, I agree that he made some more solid contributions about natural philosophy (aka science) in terms of methodology and how we could work on it, but then again we have a long history of that with Roger Bacon, William of Ockham, and many others in detailing aspects of experimentation and fusion of mathematics in natural philosophy. Francis Bacon (and Aristotle too in his "Organon") and William Whewell made solid contributions to how to acquire knowledge and these seem more relevant to the lead than do Goldhaber and Nieto. Now with Newton, I think that his rules of reasoning are more about science in general than the scientific method per se and the PDF you provided observes "Newton was not really dealing with philosophy as we think of it today. He was laying down some basic principles for physics that seemed reasonable and necessary in order to understand his laws." So it looks like the method is not really the focus of his work, but merely a supportive section for understanding his work. I suppose he could be mentioned as a contributor to the scientific method, but his work was not focused on developing a scientific method. On the other hand, Whewell and Francis Bacon did in fact focus on "methods". Bacon more clearly so. His "New Organon" reads like a manual for an inductive method which is noted in some models of the scientific method. Huitzilopochtli1990 (talk) 22:44, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Goldhaber and Nieto is a review paper. They have no "axe to grind". They review the state of the art in assessing just how to get to mass limits. It's not about dark matter 'per se', but ranges widely over the whole of physics. If I detect a specific interest, it is about mass dispersion. Thus their introduction "How to test a theory". They provide a gamut of techniques/methods to estimate the masses of these particles, the photon and the graviton. --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 19:46, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

Please note that I plan to follow the suggestion of SteveMcCluskey by emending the citation to rest on part I.A: "How to test a theory", in Goldhaber & Nieto. The plan is to emphasize their role as philosophically-minded working scientists. --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 20:00, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

Since it is a review paper that only touches on theories, not the scientific method, but focuses on phenomenon in physics, I don't think it belongs there and is not really good source for the article either way. It certainly does not belong in the lead in the first sentence. If there is no quote on the scientific method or elaboration aside from philosophical claims of science, it borders on it being original research or synthesis since it is stretching the source to make claims that it does not explicitly make (on the scientific method). That is why me and User:SteveMcCluskey have requested actual quotes from the paper on the scientific method. Now, if the source had a section on the scientific method explicitly, then maybe it would be ok. But testing a theory and the scientific method are not the same thing nor are they synonymous. Considering that superior sources are available like "Scientific Method in Practice" by Hugh Gauch Jr. (Cambridge University Press), these belong in the lead. What do you think? Huitzilopochtli1990 (talk) 22:28, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

Perhaps it might be useful to refer you to History_of_scientific_method#Mention_of_the_topic. --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 01:35, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

SteveMcCluskey, The statement that leaps out at me in Goldhaber & Nieto part I.A 'How to test a theory' is their #3:

If many closely neighboring subjects are described by connecting theoretical concepts, then the theoretical structure acquires a robustness which makes it increasingly hard – though certainly never impossible – to overturn.

Goldhaber and Nieto (2010) point out that a scientific explanation that is interconnected with other phenomena reinforces the underlying model. What I have in mind is the discovery of a binary neutron star merger in 2017. The merger was accompanied by a gravitational wave chirp (indicative of an inspiral^[1]) which was detected by the two gravitational wave observatories as GW170817, as well as by a gamma-ray burst GRB 170817A, and an optical transient together with the creation of heavy elements, which was predicted in 1995, from the destruction of the neutron stars (within a few seconds of their merger). This fits in quite well with Goldhaber and Nieto's criterion #2 (fecundity) as well,^[2] as well as with criterion #1 (unexpectedness).^[3] --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 02:49, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

Summary: the concept of 'proving a predicate by experiment' (scientific method) has existed for at least one thousand years, dating from Ibn al-Haytham's Treatise on Light (رسالة في الضوء) (in which he shows how to prove that light rays travel in straight lines — the predicate being known at least one thousand years before him). Scientific method was codified in the nineteenth century by William Stanley Jevons' three-stage method (the name for the method dating from the seventeenth century, bestowed by Francisco Sanches), and further clarified in the twentieth century by insistence that the public prediction stage precede the public test (experiment) stage, to avoid charges of tampering. Goldhaber & Nieto (2010) listed their three criteria on testing a theory, fulfilled by gravitational-wave astronomy in 2017 (named Science Breakthrough of the Year for 2017), an application of general relativity (1915). --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 10:12, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

I saw that section on the history, but it was not really useful for the discussion here, unfortunately. The concepts of using various methods to arrive at empirical knowledge is of course really old even going back to Aristotle's "Organon" and well before that too. But what is being looked at is the fact that Goldhaber & Nieto do not engage in explicit discussion of the scientific method. Their criteria for testing a theory is not a discussion on the scientific method because the little section of "How to test a theory" is not really extensive at all, nor does it even mention the scientific method nor does it even focus on it at all. Indeed, if it were to mention the scientific method in the article it would be a different story, but it clearly does not. The "How to test a theory" section only references things relating to changing consensus on theories based on availability of evidences and even references Kuhn's work, which is also about changes in views held by scientists as explanations for certain phenomenon - theories, not methods or hypotheses. It actually would be odd if a paper like this were to review the scientific method since all scientific papers use, broadly, aspects of the scientific method by default. It would be redundant.

The issue here is the same. Does the source discuss the scientific method explicitly? No. Does the source have a reasonable amount of discussion on the scientific method? No. It focuses mainly on determining mass limits of particular substances of matter wit competing theories and evidences and barely touches on theories, which is not the same as the scientific method at all. Even the conclusion emphasizes mass limits and says nothing about theories or the scientic method. Having said, this this source clearly does not belong in the lead at all and for sure it is WP:SYN to force a source to make claims it never did. This is why I asked for a quote, which you have yet to provide. If you cannot produce a quote from the source then it will have to be removed from the lead at least. A more appropriate source on the scientific method for the lead would be "Scientific Method in Practice" by Hugh Gauch Jr. (Cambridge University Press) or other similar books since those are focused on the scientific method. Huitzilopochtli1990 (talk) 23:26, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

I have created a named ref for Crutchfield's review of Complex Systems (see the article history). This pdf reviews Complex Systems, which may be useful for citing some of the conclusions about this topic. --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 14:35, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

So the Crutchfield ref could additionally be used thus: <ref name=Crutchfield /> in the article. 16:19, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

I noted some edits to the history section, and I made some logical adjustments: I reversed the sequence of the two remaining paragraphs because that seems obviously more logical, and I move the history section earlier in the article. But this leaves some issues open:

• Within the history section, the doubts of Feyerabend etc are noted twice in a short space, and I would also say vaguely. I think that should be refined. I also note this is discussed in more detail in other sections.
• There is an implication in the history section that Baconianism was not accepted until late in the 19th century, which seems quite wrong to me, or at least needing some refining. The 18th century Enlightenment was surely very Baconian?!
• When we place the History section in a more logical position before all the other more detailed sections we see that to some extent it overlaps with the Overview section. In general the article suffers a bit from repetition, which I suppose has come from editors working on small sections in isolation. I suggest careful moving of bits between those two sections, or even a merging. Personally I think it is better to have a separate history section, as "overview" is a vague term and not necessarily covering what that section does right now?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:05, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

I see you moved the section up, which makes sense to me for background purposes. History and overview are distinct things so separation makes sense too. I will try to unite Feyerabend in this section, but feel free to add on. Yes Baconianism grew in popularity the 18th century too. Will try to clarify point. Huitzilopochtli1990 (talk) 00:12, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

I propose changing the lead paragraph from:

The Oxford Dictionaries Online defines the scientific method as "a method or procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses".[1] Experiments are a procedure designed to test hypotheses. Experiments are an important tool of the scientific method.[2][3] To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry is commonly based on empirical or measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning.[4]

to:

An empirical method of knowledge acquisition, which has characterized the development of natural science since the 17th century, involving careful observation; formulating hypotheses, via induction, based on such observations; experimental testing and measurement of deductions drawn from the hypotheses; and refinement (or elimination) of the hypotheses based on the experimental findings. These are principles of the scientific method, as opposed to a definitive series of steps applicable to all scientific enterprises.

My proposal would retain citations 1 and 3; remove citations 2 and 4; and add this citation:

Scientific method, n., Oxford English Dictionary (3rd ed.), 2014, OED Online, http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/383323 (subscription required), retrieved May 28, 2018.

Rationale:

(a) Whenever possible, we should not begin an article with a dictionary definition.

(b) I drew on the article content, and the more detailed OED entry, to write the proposed paragraph. Consequently, it provides a more accurate synopsis of the article content and a more comprehensive explanation.

(c) The 3rd sentence in the current lead paragraph is superfluous.

(d) The 4th sentence of the current lede attempts to define "scientific", not "scientific method".

(e) The 4th sentence also includes an undefined phrase, "specific principles of reasoning". The fourth citation seeks to explain those "specific principles of reasoning", but the multi-step reference is confusing:

(i) "[4] Rules for the study of natural philosophy", Newton transl 1999, pp. 794–96, after Book 3, The System of the World. ["Newton transl 1999" links to:]

(ii) Newton, Isaac (1999) [1687, 1713, 1726], Philosophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica, University of California Press, ISBN 0-520-08817-4, Third edition. From I. Bernard Cohen and Anne Whitman's 1999 translation, 974 pages. [The book title links to the Wikipedia article:]

(iii) Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica

Finding pages 794-96 of the 1999 English translation is no easy task since it is a recently published book one must purchase. Better to link to Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica#Rules of Reasoning in Philosophy, although that section does not describe the "specific principles of reasoning" in a clear, correct, concise, and comprehensible manner.

(g) The 2nd reference, a link to the ScienceMadeSimple.com website--and the quote from the site--provide a simplistic discussion of the topic.

If you (the editors reading this Talk page section) agree with my proposal, but you believe my proposed paragraph would benefit from further editing (I am sure it would!), please have at it here or after we (hopefully) replace the current intro.

Thanks!   - Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) 06:57, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

Newton's rules of reasoning (in English translation) are

1. Occam's razor
2. Newton then applies this razor to ascribe the same causes whenever the same effects are seen
3. More subtly, if the effects are invariant, the observed qualities must be universal
4. The inferences (about mass and matter, in the case of Principia) from 1, 2, and 3 are to be assumed to be true, until proven otherwise

Thanks for lifting up the level of discussion. --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 20:32, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

• Thank you so much Ancheta Wis! :O)   - Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) 17:12, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Your contribution has reminded me of Newton's Hypotheses non fingo, translated into contemporary English: "I fake no hypotheses". So Newton's 4 rules of reasoning then yield a pretty good summary of his scientific method: use observations to drive experiment to see which hypotheses survive. (The surviving hypotheses become candidate invariants in a theory.) --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 12:11, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

• I really like your "translation" of the Newton's 4 rules. When you have time, perhaps you could weave them into the article in an appropriate spot. :O)

Good discussion points. One thing to consider: I can not think of a good citation off hand, but I believe a common thread in all the diverse attempts to formulate scientific method involve (whether they say it or not) being sceptical about the human ability to understand what is going, and methodically so. With Descartes they speak of "methodical skepticism". Bacon wrote about how people are attracted to lies. It might well be the most crucial and radical difference compared to say early Greek natural philosophers.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 21:44, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

I think in any case the above is an improvement, will you go ahead with it @Markworthen:? I think there are refinements which can be made, but it definitely a better foundation to build on for the reasons you mention.

• Just coming back to my point above, which I think should be somehow used, it is arguable that the concept of scientific method goes back to the first Greek natural scientists (or natural philosophers). Certainly the word's application to a careful and planned pursuit of knowledge is Aristotelian Greek. Basic assumptions underlying classical scientific method were already some of the ones which came back in modern time: a minimal metaphysical assumption that nature ("Nature" or indeed the natures of things) works regularly and predictably according to humanly comprehensible "laws" which can be investigated by careful observation. (So it was from the beginning, even before modernity, both empiricist, focused to some extent on observing physical things, and rationalist, assuming and looking for "laws" which can be theorized about.) What Bacon and Descartes added sounds simple but was massively important when we compare to what Aristotelianism had become, and led for example to Newton: 1. be skeptical by default and do not trust human neutrality in observations 2. avoid all metaphysics (apart from the assumption that nature is regular of course).--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 14:04, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

• Thank so much Andrew Lancaster - A good education for me. ;o) I attempted to include your point in the new intro paragraph, which I posted a few minutes ago. Note: On article pages (but not Talk pages), I am unable to use the text editor ("Edit source"), which results in some limitations. I have a ticket submitted to Phabricator to see if other people have experienced a similar problem.   - Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) 17:19, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

[[:File:Photo_51_x-ray_diffraction_image.jpg|thumb|right| (Q:) What is the structure of the gene? (H:) Hypothetically, a helix, (D:) whose Fourier transform would be an X. (E:) Watson sees photo 51, an X-ray diffraction pattern. It is the Fourier transform of DNA's atoms, showing a helical framework. (A:) Watson then shows that DNA's base pairs are equi-shaped rungs forming a helical ladder. The pairs are the genetic code for our life on Earth. See: synopsis of scientific method]] I nominate Photo 51. It is scientific data for the objective basis of the molecular structure of DNA, and its role is described in the article. --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 01:01, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

A generic image like this would be ok with me. I personally, think no diagram image would be good enough though, since many models of the scientific method are available. Generic images or images of historical figures would be ok. Maybe even images of general science tools would work too. Huitzilopochtli1990 (talk) 01:16, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

Thank you. Might we gain consensus on this? --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 01:46, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

I generally favor an original image over a diagram. Cheers, Rowan Forest (talk) 02:05, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

I think the image is ok. Does not have much to do with a scientific method, but it is ok. Beakers and lab people would work too like this one . Kind of hard to get an image of a person trying to solve a problem because that is what thinking and the scientific methods actually are. As long as we move away from diagrams almost anything will do. Huitzilopochtli1990 (talk) 06:36, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

See Scientific_method#DNA_example, a synopsis of scientific method. The DNA bullet points, as a synopsis of scientific method, have been in the article for 13 years now, since 12 May 2005. They illustrate the hypothetico-deductive method,^[1] and Photo 51 is central to Watson's memoir (Footnotes 41-46). The 4 steps of hypothetico-deductive method were actually in this article, before another editor moved it to the sub-page. --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 07:56, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Actually, far from being generic, the photo is historic: "The instant I saw the picture my mouth fell open and my pulse began to race."—(James Watson (1968) The Double Helix, p.167 —It is footnote 46 in this article, Scientific_method.) That is the reaction of a scientist who has prepared for something his entire life, and finds it. Other people also find this photo historic. It is the logo of a university. --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 08:17, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

It's a small touch, but if a reader were to click on one of the bullet points in Scientific_method#DNA_example listed below, the reader could read more about each step, as it had happened in the DNA story:

• Question
• Hypothesis
• Prediction
• Experiment
• Analysis

There are little blue links at the end of each section to follow, and the reader can get a sense of the never-ending cycle in scientific method. This synopsis has been in the article for 13 years now. 12:13, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

The example looks synthesized from multiple sources since the sources does not make explicit claims about the scientific method and DNA. Wikipedia editors made up that example and chose that particular rigid sturcture of the method, not a reliable source. DNA was done by many individuals and none of them followed any particular sequence or methods. But you can use the image. It better than an arbitrary diagram. Perhaps simplify the wording and you are good to go. Huitzilopochtli1990 (talk) 02:55, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

No, the synopsis depicts the thought process: "What is now known, and what do we not know about the explanation, now, at this current moment?" Godfrey-Smith 2003's Hypothetico-deductive method is the citation for the sequence of the synopsis, and the footnotes actually occurred in that historical sequence. But the article states clearly the steps can occur in any order, as in the pieces of a puzzle, as you note. The steps of scientific method traditionally are taught verbally from teacher to student (that point is in Gauch) and could be viewed as mnemonic or rhetorical. The rhetoric is apparently needed for teaching or persuasion. It is observable that successful scientists are master rhetors. Watson's teacher was Salvador Luria; Watson was schooled in Chicago, with a natural history background. Crick's background was in physics, the same as Lawrence Bragg. Franklin's background was similarly rigorous, but in chemistry.

The historical accident that Franklin and Gosling ran the experiment, with no expectation about the result, and that Watson recognized as an application of Crick's Fourier transform of a helix, was persuasive enough to convince Bragg, the very next day, January 31, 1953. Watson and Crick were authorized to resume model-building. (Crick was annoyed at Watson for not measuring the photo, which would have revealed the dimension of the unit cell of the helix. The rest of the data they got from Pauling The Nature of the Chemical Bond, a present to Watson from Crick.) Watson discovered the significance of Chargaff's base-pair ratios, using concrete models one month later, Febrary 28. Those facts show clearly that tampering with the explanation could be ruled out, in this Nobel-quality result.

For the researchers, what was salient was "What was known, and what remains to know, now, at this current moment?" That was the question seemingly inexorably driving the next step of the investigation. But the DNA story actually occurred in the rhetorical order, without tampering with the explanation by any of the principals. So the time-stamping of the events is the objective witness to the integrity of the result, and to the story, which no single individual principal investigator accomplished on their own. Crick himself admitted he could not have discovered it on his own. Watson readily admits his debt to the other principals, such as Crick's sketch of Fourier transforms for the birdwatcher (meaning Watson). Chargaff admitted he did not understand the significance of his own ratios.

There is now a critical edition of The Double Helix which is available for the skeptic.

I propose "On Friday, 30 January 1953, James Watson sees photo 51, an X-ray diffraction pattern, which he recognized as the Fourier transform of the atoms of a helix, as predicted by Francis Crick. This gave rise to their model of the structure of DNA as a double helix, which explains the role of DNA in the mechanism of life on Earth."

I have an observation here: I tried the sentence above, but you would have called it too long. Then I cut back on the caption and found there need to be multiple parts, at the very least, a 'what', a mathematical statement (functional form), and a functional significance.

At least the rewording provokes additional questions in the reader. So I added a link to the synopsis, and found there are wiki links for a surprising number of terms in the caption. Clearly a community at work here.

--Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 12:36, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Ok. This should be easy then. You said, "Godfrey-Smith 2003's Hypothetico-deductive method is the citation for the sequence of the synopsis, and the footnotes actually occurred in that historical sequence." So if that is the case, then summarize his sequence for the link between DNA and the scientific method and that should be the caption. I have read about the history of DNA before, but the question is always the same. Does the source make the claims of DNA with respect to the scientific method or not. In the article Godfrey-Smith is not cited for the DNA example. Only for the scientific method. But if you can summarize his footnotes as a caption, that would be good. Huitzilopochtli1990 (talk) 18:49, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

I formatted Godfrey-Smith: the mapping is Q=question, H=hypothesis, D=deduction from the hypothesis, E=experiment, A=analysis, etc in never-ending cycle. Godfrey-Smith used numbers for his steps, but the application to DNA is clear. It's in the caption, now. I annotated the English caption with Q,H,D,E,A

The footnote order by date, and place in the method:

Q: 1940s 40

H: Oct 1951 41

D: 1952 44, 42, 43

E: 30 Jan 1953.45, 46.

A: 28 Feb 1953 47.

etc. for the endless cycle

--Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 21:29, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Ok. Looks good to me. Huitzilopochtli1990 (talk) 22:32, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

I have been casting for a suitable image that entails photo 51, which is a non-free image, unfortunately. That photo's use is restricted to its own article, and is specifically enjoined from any other kind of display. But there is another image involving DNA that could be used in its place. Rather than the "E:" stage, experiment, the replacement image involves the "H:" and "D:" stages, hypothesis and deduction from the hypothesis. The replacement image shows a molecular model of DNA ("A:" stage as of 1 March 1953), and a researcher David Deutsch proposing a new way to expound an "H:" stage (his 'find an explanation' stage 2009).

The topic of "Q:" remains unchanged (invariant), namely "given what we knew before 30 January 1953, explain the physical structure of the gene". Before that date, H, D, and A remained unknown, or TBD (to be determined) with certainty (no one knew yet). On 30 January 1953, Franklin and her student Gosling were at the E: stage, independent of "H:", "D:", or "A:". In fact, on that date, Franklin (and Chargaff) was skeptical of anything Crick or Watson would ever do, because she (and Watson and Crick) knew Pauling's helix hypothesis (mooted explanation) was incorrect: "of course its wrong. DNA is not a helix", and scares Watson away. Watson retreats to Wilkins' office, who commiserates, and shows Watson photo 51, which triggered the cascade of findings leading up to the molecular model of DNA next to David Deutsch.

Photo 51 (E:) corroborates Crick and Watson's hypothesis (H:), Crick's deduction (D:) from H, namely that we are to expect that a Fourier transform of a helix be an X-shape. A: Watson has just corroborated D:. He sees an X-shape, as of 30 January 1953. The Q for 29 January 1953 is now resolved (for one person, James Watson, he can now look for a new cascade of Q H D etc.).

After 30 January 1953, the new Q, for Watson, is 'justify the composition of the rungs of the helical ladder'. (The explanation of the rungs of the helical ladder was discovered by Watson 28 February 1953.). A never-ending cycle of Qs and As because scientific method does not terminate; the search just moves to another level of question (a new Q arises after an A is settled.).

The new image was not as simple to explain, because it involved 2 cycles of Q H D E A. But Photo 51, as Fourier transform of a helix of DNA, its X-ray diffraction pattern, is not as easy to understand as the molecular model of DNA. (And David Deutsch's views are the start of yet another cycle, not yet discussed in this article. Briefly, tampering with an invariant explanation would not be feasible, if we as a community, were to embrace Deutsch's views.)

Might this image be acceptable? --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 17:29, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Sure. As long as we move away from the diagrams. Generic pics like this new one with Deutsch are ok. Huitzilopochtli1990 (talk) 05:11, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Thank you. --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 05:25, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

In the History section of the article, a "John Stewart Mill" is mentioned. I believe it is intended to be John Stuart Mill. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fjsuarez89 (talk • contribs) 01:34, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

The change was apparently introduced here. Fixed, Thank you. --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 02:18, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

This edit request to Scientific method has been answered. Set the |answered= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

The edit made: Revision as of 00:21, 31 May 2018 resulted in a grammatically incorrect sentence. Specifically, the text was changed FROM: "In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, a debate over ..." TO: "In the late 19th a debate over ..." Sorry, but I don't know the facts well enough to offer an appropriate alternative. 24.84.198.185 (talk) 19:02, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

I will revert as a poorly formed, hasty action without enough thought to merit consideration. --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 21:42, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

The change includes the term "No scientific authorities ...". Just who is granting this authority. More specifically, who is claiming the title "scientific authorities"? --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 23:06, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

It's an entangled change. This will take time. --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 22:49, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

 Done I've restored the text " and early 20th centuries" from the revision as of 00:21, 31 May 2018. NiciVampireHeart 19:29, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

I would like to see some talk of metascience in this article. While relatively new, the subject seems highly relevant.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikiman2718 (talk • contribs)

See the references to confirmation bias in the metascience article, which discuss blinding; we would expect blinding to remove bias. In the scientific method article, historically, a search for truth ("As scientists we must be our own worst enemy"—Feynman's paraphrase of Alhacen), balanced by skepticism (Francisco Sanches), gave rise to the scientific method (William Stanley Jevons). The ability to 'think outside the box', and socratic method also seem to be influences on the scientific method. --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 09:43, 9 May 2019 (UTC) updated 21:42, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

@Ancheta Wis: I'm not entirely sure what you mean. I don't see the connection between metascience and confirmation bias. Wikiman2718 (talk) 20:55, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

@Wikiman2718: see Metascience_(research)#Physics quoted here:"Richard Feynman noted that estimates of physical constants were closer to published values than would be expected by chance. Physicists now implement blinding to prevent confirmation bias.:^[1]

• When a narrative is constructed its elements become easier to believe. (Imre Lakatos (1976), Proofs and Refutations).
• Goldhaber and Nieto published a review of their subject in 2010, in which they review the reliability of their physical values. In it they observe that "if theoretical structures with many closely neighboring subjects are described by connecting theoretical concepts then the theoretical structure .. becomes increasingly hard to overturn".^{[2]: page 942} Personally, I do not consider this observation to be a defect, as scientific theories need to be clear.

I submit the citations of Lakatos, and also of Goldhaber and Nieto as my reply. --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 21:42, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

Shouldn't this article begin with a The? Has this debate already been had? Isn't it, "The Scientific method is a body of techniques..." Mathiastck 06:58, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, right at the top of Archive 11, there is debate on the definite article The. --Ancheta Wis 08:17, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok well I vote to include "The" next time :) Mathiastck 18:12, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

There is/are "Scientific Method(s)/Process(es)", and then there is "The Scientific Method" - a more general, abstract model: Observation, Hypothesis, Experiment (repeat): this is "The Scientific Method"...it is more of a philosophical model than a process, as the body to which "Scientific Method" can/does refer(s). Am I right in thinking lack of "the" grammatically puts this method in way similar to the term "kung-fu" which is used without "the". For example, one does not say, "he used the kung fu on me!" I think journal citations showing use of "scientific method" minus the definite article "the" will be shown to be typos. One might see if there is a correlation in typo articles and authors of native asian (especially Japanese) toungue. It is known that the definte article is not used similarly in these asian languages as it is in english, and that new or late-comers to English may publish with this typo. Living and working in Berkeley, I have much experience with non-native English speakers of all types and feel the lack of definite article may in fact stem from native asian speaking individuals both authors and editors...unless of course the spirit of english wishes to refer to the scientific method as we do the kung fu. That does sound cool. 76.102.47.125 (talk) 00:51, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Observation, Hypothesis and Experiment are the three primary and fundamental concepts in all methods of science. Experiment: Search the internet for "observation hypothesis experiment". Observation: the majority of results are for "the Scientific Method". Hypothesis: I have just used the scientific method. 71.156.103.213 (talk) 22:10, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

At the outset of the discussion about this issue, User:Wjbeaty pointed out some of the published current discussion in the field per WP:VER and WP:RS. He said: "Many scientists object to ... the very concept The Scientific Method, and they fight to get it removed from grade-school textbooks. Examples:

• D. Simanek, physicist
• J. Denker, physicist
• P. Bridgman, physicist
• R. Feynman, physicist
• W. McComas
• H. Baur, chemist

Experience has taught that scientific method should be viewed as a cluster of techniques or body of techniques. When diagrammed it might look something like a sunflower with an identifiable core with a bunch of petals representing various fields of science. Add or remove a few petals, and it still looks like a sunflower. Kenosis 19:23, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[Is this the same P. Bridgman who suggested we might see revolutions such as Einstein's relativity earlier if we changed our scientific method: if we payed closer attention to the operations used in measuring (or observing) a phenomenon: if we add operational to the objective and natural requirements of a definition? Bridgman is referring, in the article above, to philosophies of science (IMO), not methodology - on which he has written books and many papers. Geologist (talk) 01:53, 2 February 2008 (UTC)]

My modest opinion: I disagree on "The". A laboratory experiment, a computer simulation, a theoretical model: all may be scientific but are far from using a unique and univocal method. One thing is to single out a body of criteria in order to define if a method of inquiry is scientific, and another is to say that there is only one such method. Also (but I might be wrong), I think there is an implicit usage in Wikipedia so as to use "The..." in reference to a book or a specific theory (e.g. "interpretation of dreams" and "The Interpretation of Dreams"). -- Typewritten 08:21, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

"Experience has taught that scientific method should be viewed as a cluster of techniques"

If this article is about a collection of methods, then the title should be Scientific methods. indil (talk) 02:18, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

A redirect already exists. I personally oppose a page move. This article is referenced by thousands of other articles already, under its current title, and is well-known under its current name. A google search shows that the current title is referenced over 4 times more frequently than the plural. --Ancheta Wis (talk) 11:04, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

This is absurd. The rhythm method isn't specific either: some people use calendars, some people count days, others guess. We still follow correct English grammar. I am WP:BRDing. MilesAgain (talk) 16:47, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

OK, I have done the R so D rather more than you did. This is not an issue of grammar as either is OK from that respect. It is a fundamental question and the balance is on not have the "The" there. --Bduke (talk) 22:18, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

I've changed it to "Scientific method refers to the body of techniques..."; perhaps this is a satisfactory solution? Andareed (talk) 23:39, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes; good. MilesAgain (talk) 12:50, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I have looked at the Richard Feynman link given above. He does not use the phrase Scientific Mathod", and far from arguing that it should be removed from grade school textbooks, he seems to be arguing strongly that it should be taught. Rjm at sleepers (talk) 08:47, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

• I'm confused. None of those pages seem to insinuate that the problem is the article "the". They seem to contest the idea of the scientific method itself. Then again, I'm very tired, and not at all that attentive to begin with.  Aar  ►  09:30, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

  The best discussion on 'the' that I have seen comes from Mark Twain. One could argue this is all a fine point for those who think in English. There are languages that get along without a 'the', after all. But there is a part of English, the subjunctive mood, which is a good basis for the hypothesis and prediction steps of scientific method, and without which I believe it is hard to explain scientific method. --Ancheta Wis (talk) 20:04, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

• It is an issue of grammar. In titles, the article is commonly and correctly used to refer to a body or cluster of similar things: The Elements of Style; The Working Dog; The Racing Motorcycle; The Successful Investor. "Elements of Style" could be okay because "elements" is plural, but neither "Working Dog" nor "Racing Motorcycle" are suitable titles. Likewise, "Scientific Methods" would be fine. But both "Scientific Method" and "Successful Investor" are awkward and off-putting to native English speakers.````KellyArt 11:07, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm a native English-speaker and it doesn't put me off. "Scientific method" in singular form sans expected article seems like a mass noun. The Tetrast (talk) 05:39, 15 June 2011 (UTC).

But the point is that neither method nor scientific method is a mass noun. Therefore the absence of the article sounds wrong (to many or most speakers). Where is the linguistic argument that native speaker intuition (here, that's a real mass noun, therefore no article is needed) is wrong here? --Florian Blaschke (talk) 13:40, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

By the way, I'm not referring to the title. Scientific method is fine as an article title, but the way scientific method is used in the introduction without an article is plainly ungrammatical. The body of the article uses "the scientific method", showing how ridiculous this insistence on the absence of the article is. See also wikt:scientific method. As pointed out by MilesAgain, the scientific method is a general term and may be used to cover more than one technique, or variant (or part/substructure) of a basic methodical paradigm, compare also methodology, which is often essentially used synonymously with method. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 13:43, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Fine, I have realised that method can indeed be used as a mass noun, but the scientific method is equally possible (and more common, not only according to my own observation but also Wiktionary) and does not imply that there is only a single way of doing scientific research. Also, the article is internally inconsistent in its use of the with scientific method. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 14:24, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

There has been a historical shift in the use of 'definite article'+"scientific method". It was popularized as 'the' in the nineteenth c., but 'the' was eventually shot down in the 20th century. That is the reason that "a scientific method" is attempted usage in the article. I personally shrink from being the bad cop enforcing 'indefinite article'+"scientific method" in this article; you are welcome to enforce this. Note that according to Richard Popkin, when Francisco Sanches (16th c.) innovated use of the idea of a "method of knowing" (modus sciendi in Latin), he apparently published a book in Spanish Metodo universal de las ciencias(the book is now lost) which has no definite article in the title. For citations, see note 49 in history of scientific method, which cites a 1703 reference to the Spanish title. --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 03:49, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

For the record, back in 2005, User:Adraeus came up with the idea of finessing the controversy over 'the' by simply using indefinite article 'a'. It seems a simple solution. At that time, there were passionate arguments even denying the existence of "the scientific method", which I am afraid will be re-ignited by reverting to the common "the". I admit it is common usage, which simply ignores the arguments from past (or future) editors. --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 04:45, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

FWIW the absence of "the" sounds extremely wrong to me, and I have never heard it used without "the" in regular discourse. Arc de Ciel (talk) 04:23, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

As per my edit summary, I edited the lead sentence to include both versions. I placed "the" first as the more commonly used. For example, it's the name generally used in educational materials available to the broader public - a couple of educational resources I found quickly are 1 2 3 - there are more as well. Arc de Ciel (talk) 04:38, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

(response to Ancheta) Both versions are still there. It seemed a relatively minor issue to me, which is why I didn't edit it before (plus I didn't think of the compromise of just including both), but then I realized that the perceived awkwardness would reduce ease of reading. There shouldn't be any compromise with accuracy in an encyclopedia, and my impression is that Wikipedia is much better "defended" than it used to be. For example, the Science article seems to have done fine. :-) I've added back the hidden text though, asking for talk page discussion before making changes to the lead sentence. Arc de Ciel (talk) 05:47, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Ancheta, I do not think that the 16th century Spanish title is of any relevance for 20th century English use. According to my observation at least, in Spanish, especially in headlines and titles, similar to Anglophone Headlinese, you can actually drop articles often, anyway, and in fact, the Spanish Wikipedia article uses the article: el método científico. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 12:38, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Ancheta's attempt at resolution is a good one, but when I saw this page in Google results it actually drew my attention to a debate which should be pretty insignificant. I respectfully suggest that an alternative way would be to use the formatting to imply both, as in, "The scientific method . . ." This makes the sentence sound correct to those readers who feel it requires it, but bolds only the actual topic of the article. I'm generally reluctant to engage in or follow this type of debate, so if consensus favors my suggestion, please don't wait for me to make the change.--~TPW 17:31, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Sorry to re-open this can of worms, but much of what is written on this page under the banner of "The Scientific Method" reads like Baconian positivist-inductivist dogma. This model of scientific activity might have been correct in the 16th or 17th centuries - but it is far from correct in the 21st. Modern scientific activity simply does not start with "Observation" (that is the leading fallacy of inductivist dogma). According to Alan Chalmers (a philosopher of science) in "What Is This Thing Called Science?", "inductivism" is defined as the view that "scientific knowledge is to be derived from the observable facts by some kind of inductive inference" - and inductivism has so many problems that it cannot be a valid basis for scientific methdology - let alone _the_ scientific method. So wikipedia looks like promoting a view of science that is fundamentally incorrect. Chalmers argues that inductive generalisations from obervable facts are incapable of yielding scientific knowledge about unobservable entities such as protons and genes. I would suggest that the whole agenda of trying distinguish science from non-science by evaluation of the methods used in the activity is fundamentally flawed. There is no single "the method of science" of "the scientific method". I'd suggest much of this page is moved to a new page entitled "Inductive theories of science", perhaps in a section called "the Baconian theory of science" and that this page is renamed to a much more general topic like "Scientific Methods". Popper argues for a more 'naturalistic' theory of science - based on observation of what scientists do - in "The Logic of Scientific Discovery" - and famously comes to the conclusion that scientific activity is not distinguished by any particular method but by the testability (falsifiability) of the theories it produces. 14:26, 4 April 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ian Glossop (talk • contribs)

@Ian Glossop, Perhaps you might address your concerns with @Whatiguana, who has contributed a graphic attributed to Theodore Garland, Jr. (2015) 'The scientific method as an ongoing process'. It appears that Whatiguana's views are very close to those of Professor Garland, because the upload claim is 'own work'. But we have an implied CC-by-SA here, and I hope we might keep or modify this graphic image, with proper license and attribution, for use in the article. The graphic is addressed to naturalists, who would naturally start with observation, as you point out.

But if you re-examine the article (without the first impression produced from the Garland graphic) you will see that the methodology in the article begins with 'Ask a question', rather than 'Observe'.

Deeper in the article, the 3-step methodology of Charles Sanders Pierce, "A Neglected Argument", begins with 1) 'Muse' (that is, think), in a process of 2) clarification of vague thought, which naturally leads to 3) pragmatic action, in an unending cycle of categorization.

@Sunrise , would you object if the article were to fall back to an article which drops the 'The'? In other words use phrase 'a scientific method' rather than 'the scientific method' in the article. --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 20:22, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping! Yes, I would still object. :-) (And I assume that others who have commented on this issue still would as well!) That said, if any of the above comments can be established as significant (as determined by secondary sources, per WP:WEIGHT) then I certainly wouldn't oppose consideration of new content for the article. Sunrise (talk) 08:25, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

If I may add one more complication to this perennial topic, this Google Ngram search shows that the/The scientific method became the most common usage around 1980, reaching about 55% by 2008, but capitalized, as you'd expect in a title, the/The Scientific Method stayed below 43%.

It seems to still be a marginal case, which may be one factor underlying this long debate. That being said, for historical/philosophical reasons I object to the implication that there is one single scientific method and oppose adding "the" to the title. --SteveMcCluskey (talk) 16:12, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Well, maybe there are two things here. One is the broad notion of scientific methodology. It's uncontroversial that there are many methodological positions and thoughts about method in science. One substantive and controversial position w/r/t scientific methodology is that there's one general scientific method. I think this article is about the latter. If it is, then it should be careful to note that not everyone agrees that there's a single scientific method. If the article is about scientific methodology in general, then it should present a variety of positions on the topic (including those that dissent from the view that there's a single scientific method). I don't see how data about whether or not people use "the" in front of "scientific method" tells us much unless we know what they're talking about: the proposed single general scientific method, or about scientific methodology in general.128.91.19.22 (talk) 18:52, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

March 2016 I feel there should be at least a minor reference to Emotion. The Scientific Method is based on measurable science. Emotion, being unmeasurable, has no place in The Scientific Method. I feel this method important as I hear, more and more, people attempting to use Emotion in their "Logic." I could not find this in any archive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.129.123.13 (talk) 15:03, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

This edit request to Scientific method has been answered. Set the |answered= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Request that the sentence "We beg to differ." be removed as it goes against the principle of neutrality. Opcarvalho20 (talk) 16:42, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

I took out the examples and that long quote, as the introduction is supposed to be a summary of the article below. None of those examples are mentioned in the body of the article. Rowan Forest (talk) 17:19, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

WP:NPOV is not a problem here, as the attribution makes it clear that it is Nola and Sankey's POV, not Wikipedia's POV. Moreover, Nola and Sankey's POV was well justified in the cited chapter. However, a different issue entirely is the fact that the cited chapter by Nola and Sankey is now twenty years old, so the reader might ask whether that chapter reflects the current state of the issues. For now, I changed the citation from Nola and Sankey's 2000 chapter to their (greatly expanded) 2007 book, I reworded the sentence, and I added publication dates to clarify the temporal context. I also moved the content in question out of the lead and into the section that already mentioned Feyerabend. Biogeographist (talk) 18:17, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

Currently the popular way to teach the scientific method (in the USA) is to present it as sequence of steps. When did this fashion begin?

In searching Google books, I haven't found an example of it being presented a definite sequence of steps in the 1800's or early 1900's.

Of course, one can say that Francis Bacon presented an orderly method, but my question concerns the modern presentation - observation, hypothesis, experiment etc. The number of steps described varies between 4 and 10. The typical USA secondary school student learns the scientific method as a sequence of steps.

Tashiro~enwiki (talk) 19:09, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Remember that talk pages are not a general discussion forum, but I will add an answer in case this discussion leads to a useful addition to the article. There were earlier examples in Great Britain and Europe, but in the USA John Dewey's book How We Think, first published in 1910, is an example from the early 20th century that influenced primary and secondary education. For further discussion of this issue and other references, see, for example: Blachowicz, James (June 2009). "How science textbooks treat scientific method: a philosopher's perspective". British Journal for the Philosophy of Science. 60 (2): 303–344. doi:10.1093/bjps/axp011. JSTOR 25592003. {{cite journal}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)

Matthew J. Brown noted that Dewey's account subsequently tended to be oversimplified by others:

Most careful readers of Dewey's views here agree that it would be a mistake to think of the phases as linear steps, or absolutely distinct categories. [...] For Dewey, specifying a pattern of inquiry means specifying a set of functional relationships to be satisfied, although not an algorithm or set of temporally arranged steps for doing so. The misreading may further tempt readers today because of some superficial similarities with the cartoonish version of "The Scientific Method" as a step-by-step recipe taught in grade school. In fact, that cartoon probably itself derives from a drastic oversimplification of Dewey's own work (Blachowicz 2009). Dewey is clear that this is a mistake: "The five phases, terminals, or functions of thought, that we have noted do not follow one another in a set order" (LW 8:206), but rather, each movement forward in inquiry bears on or has consequences for the other phases. It more closely fits Dewey's descriptions to think of them as repeated, reciprocal functions or as "concurrent and interdependent activity-modes" that work in "parallel streams" and in "nonlinear interaction" (Dorstewitz 2011, 208–9).

— Brown, Matthew J. (Fall 2012). "John Dewey's logic of science". HOPOS: The Journal of the International Society for the History of Philosophy of Science. 2 (2): 258–306. doi:10.1086/666843. JSTOR 10.1086/666843. {{cite journal}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)

Biogeographist (talk) 15:29, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

See further discussion of this issue at Talk:History of scientific method § When did the modern (USA) presentation as a sequence of steps begin?. Biogeographist (talk) 22:43, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

^[1]

The statement "The operational definition of a thing often relies on comparisons with standards: the operational definition of "mass" ultimately relies on the use of an artifact, such as a particular kilogram of platinum-iridium kept in a laboratory in France." is of course not true anymore (see Kilogram). SI base units are all defined in terms of internationally agreed values of fundamental physical constants (see SI base unit). Most derived units are defined mathematically in terms of base units; some include the agreed values of other physical constants, but no artifacts are involved (see SI derived unit).

The statement "For example, electric current, measured in amperes, may be operationally defined in terms of the mass of silver deposited in a certain time on an electrode in an electrochemical device that is described in some detail." is IMO misleading, as it describes a method that was relevant in the 19th century. An example that might plausibly be chosen today would be better.

In science (as in any endeavor), cost is important. Measurements with smaller uncertainty are usually more expensive; a scientist chooses a method with sufficient accuracy (or in some cases precision) for the experimental results to be meaningful. Some examples measuring electric current: If the experiment requires only two significant digits, the operational definition might be "what my ammeter reads", also checking it against another meter in the lab. For four digits, I'd send the meter to a commercial calibration lab, perform the experiment, then have them check it again to ensure that it hadn't drifted. Six digits, rent specialized instrumentation. Eight digits, somehow perform the experiment at a metrology lab that can trace the measurement to physical principles. While a description like this is far too verbose for this article, there should be some way to convey the idea that an "operational definition" is chosen to be adequate for the task at hand, at reasonable cost. Jinrikiwiki (talk) 01:41, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

Introduction is repetitive. It also reflects the misleading and omitted aspects of the rest of the article.

Conceptual problems:

CP1. Ignores important concepts such as "theory" and "regime".

CP2. Inadequate (almost non-existent) treatment of analytic, experimental, and numerical models.

CP3. "Complexity" is mentioned, but should not be. It has its own article, and is simply one area of science.

CP4. The section on relationship between mathematics and science is very vague. The table is hopelessly misleading.

CP5. No discussion of the methods of modern, "big science".

CP6. No discussion of the interactions among science, society, and politics.

CP7. Should there be a discussion of the nature of "soft sciences"?

Vocabulary problems:

VP1. The word "model" is used ambiguously, referring both to the scientific method and to models used within science. The former use should be replaced. The "scientific method" is not a model.

VP2. The word "law" is used inconsistently and without any systematic introduction.

Organizational problems:

OP1. Sections contain overlapping material.

OP2. Some sections are hobby-horses, i.e., too minor to appear in an article at this level.

Quality Rating:

I would rate this article as C or lower.

The article should be rewritten, starting from a draft by a small panel (5–7?) of scientists, teachers, and laymen.

Wcmead3 (talk) 08:06, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not work with panels, nor based on qualifications, people being assigned tasks etc. There have been attempts to make wikis which do work that way and they never work as well as Wikipedia. In practice we can best help this article by making concrete editing proposals whenever we have one. It can be slow and frustrating, especially if there are major structural changes to make, but normally it more or less works. Probably you know all this already, but anyway, it would be better if you explained opinions in more concrete detail, aiming to convince rather than scold. (Remember there is probably no editor who will feel responsible for the article.) For example: which sections are over-lapping; which are hobby horses? --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:22, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

I Agree with Andrew Lancaster   - Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) (I'm a man—traditional male pronouns are fine.) 15:38, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

I also agree with Andrew Lancaster, except that the feedback of Wcmead3 did not strike me as "scolding", just underdeveloped. I prefer this definition of scolding: "to criticize (someone) severely or angrily especially for personal failings". Scolding is what people do on my talk page when they opine (usually always wrongly, of course!...) that I am behaving badly, not what they do when they are giving good-faith feedback about content.

With regard to the vocabulary issues mentioned:

• VP1: I see no problem with using the word "model" in two different ways, though I did find one instance of the phrase "the model of the scientific method" that I agree was poor, and I removed it;
• VP2: The word "law" is hardly used at all in this article, so I don't see exactly what the problem is with that word. Note that Scientific law is a separate article. Biogeographist (talk) 21:12, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

Maybe I could have found a better word. My response should be understood as wishing for more concrete details. I do not see the post of Wcmead3 as useless. Some of the points seem like useful leads, while others are hard to work with.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 21:39, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

CP5–CP7 listed above are likely outside the scope of this article.

• CP5: Big Science is a separate article; discussion of its methods would belong in that article with a link in this one.
• CP6: The "interactions among science, society, and politics" are poorly covered in Wikipedia but would belong in Science and technology studies, the lead of which currently describes STS as "the study of how society, politics, and culture affect scientific research and technological innovation, and how these, in turn, affect society, politics and culture."
• CP7: Hard and soft science is a separate article; at the most general level both hard and soft science use the scientific method, understood as the development and testing of hypotheses, but as far as I can see Wikipedia does not have a good overview anywhere of methodic variations across the hard and soft sciences, which one would expect to find at Methodology, but no luck. Perhaps someone will come along with a desire to improve Wikipedia in this respect, but given Wikipedia's poor current coverage of this issue I am not sure where we would look to find a currently active editor who would be an expert on it. Biogeographist (talk) 23:08, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

Before inserting changes to the main page, I will propose to the community some ideas.

There is extensive work on scientific reasoning that appears in the child cognitive development literature (e.g. Barbara Koslowski's "Theory and Evidence" and much more recent work on inquiry based science teaching) that is explicit about the role of anomalies and exceptions. I believe a section entitled "Anomalies and Exceptions" belongs in the "process" section either just before or just after the subsection on "Formulation of a question". The nature of anomalies and exceptions driving rejection of established theories and new experiments is critical to scientific reasoning, and it is hinted at throughout the current article, but without naming it properly. For example, in the description of Kevin Dunbar, these are called "bugs" or "errors", when plainly he is referring to anomalies. Likewise in the section about Peirce, they are referred to as "inhibitory doubts born of surprises, disagreements and the like". while I doubt that Peirce used the terminology "anomalies" in the early 20th century, there is no other explanation of the pragmatic method that follows Peirce in that section, and he plainly is referring to anomalies, so I think they should be mentioned as such.

Likewise, I think it would be useful to at least mention the term "covariation" or "covariance", as this is really what scientists use (rather than induction). Covariation is especially important in protein function studies based on molecular biology. Induction implies a high N number, but often a powerful prediction (N = 1) is enough to nail down a theory (e.g. the discovery of Neptune).

Finally, I think it might be useful to mention the idea that scientific reasoning is fundamentally a method of "bootstrapping" (again this is Koslowski's term) between theory and covariation. This explains why philosophers of science regularly report that "anything goes" or that there aren't "any universal rules" to the scientific method (Feyerabend). The key feature is that bootstrapping will be unsound unless it is accompanied by the scientific motivation driven by anomalies. It is the combination of bootstrapping with anomalies that makes scientific reasoning both robust yet difficult to describe deductively.Relleh22hctac (talk) 16:20, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

This proposal allows a more recent perspective beyond Peirce's, and Feyerabend's views, from the past quarter-century. There seem to be additional secondary sources to summarize the progress by Kevin Dunbar —Jonah Lehrer (12.21.09) Accept Defeat: The Neuroscience of Screwing Up as well as Barbara Koslowski Theory and Evidence: The Development of Scientific Reasoning? --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 17:24, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

The sentence "Although procedures vary from one field of inquiry to another, they are frequently the same from one to another." is confusing and seems to contradict itself. Should it say something more like "Although procedures vary from one field of inquiry to another, they generally follow similar principles."? Or something flowing more naturally into the next sentence "...are all based on deriving predictions from hypotheses..." etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.238.250.150 (talk) 20:21, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

I think the inclusion of the new research sidebar would be of use for this page, potentially placed underneath the current science sidebar. Jamzze (talk) 06:24, 28 October 2020 (UTC) {{Research}}

There is a photobox of a physicist which notes his support of "invariant" explanations, yet there is no point in the article that addresses what an "invariant" explanation is or why it would be supported.

The article should change such that either:

1: There is a new section about "invariance," and his photo be moved there. [This is the edit that was made]

or

2: His photo be removed from the article.

VectorizeEverything (talk) 18:03, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

Per WP:BRD I am asking for justification of the attempted edits. They reflect changes that seemed to be Aristotelian, then empirical, re-capping thought on the subject. There have been hundreds of editors working on this article from the beginning of the encyclopdia; it may help to study the archives of this article. --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 19:07, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

We need citations. John von Neumann (1956) noted that even after Aristotle's musings, "natural science took 1000 years to get anywhere" (von Neumann, Collected Works 6 p.101). Ancient Greek is a very subtle language, but what they did does not suffice. Although the Ancient Greeks (who worded their thoughts on science at their leisure) defined the study, it has taken our successor civilizations to get past them, and to build on their work. (Francis Bacon saw this.) --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 19:54, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

The following sentence in the lead presents a point of view as if it was generally accepted:

If a particular hypothesis becomes very well supported, a general theory may be developed.

This says that general theories always come after specific hypotheses, as if science adopted or must adopt a bottom approach from observations, to specific hypotheses and then to general theories. The reference provided is a slide show, which clearly supports this bottom-up approach. However, this specific empiricist view is far from being generally accepted. Dominic Mayers (talk) 16:42, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Hi Dominic! The Popperian objection!

First, about the source: The slide show is by a biologist, not a philosopher of science, and it is posted on what looks to be a UC Riverside biology department website. So this could be a slide show for an undergraduate biology course. No doubt there is biology research that proceeds roughly like this. The problem with citing it here (aside from the principle that slide shows are usually not good sources because they are usually self-published) is that it is taken out of context: a slide show for an undergraduate biology course is not a comprehensive overview of method in all sciences. Of course, one would not want to make the same error with a different field by taking a source about method in physics and implying that it is applicable to all sciences. So the objection that this source is inappropriate is a good one.

Second, about the sentence: Note that the sentence you quoted says "may be"; it does not say that all science takes a bottom-up approach. But you are welcome to propose an alternative that would be less susceptible to that misinterpretation. Note that the word "empiricism" as used in this article (for example, in Scientific method § Overview) does not refer to inductivism but to the general principle of empirical testing. Biogeographist (talk) 19:24, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

I looked more deeply and the entire paragraph is based on this source. Here is a table with sentences from the paragraph and corresponding sentences from the slide show, the order of occurrence being preserved.

More information Slide's show, Paragraph in the lead ...

Garland's slide show versus the paragraph in current lead

Slide's show	Paragraph in the lead
The scientific method is an ongoing process. The process usually begins with observations about the natural world.	The scientific method is an ongoing process. The process usually begins with observations about the natural world.
Human beings are naturally inquisitive, so they often come up with questions about things they see or hear	People are naturally inquisitive, so they often come up with questions about things they see or hear,...
Some people think further and develop ideas (hypotheses) about why things are the way they are.	and they often develop ideas or hypotheses about why things are the way they are.
The best hypotheses, from the standpoint of science, are those that lead to testable predictions.	The best hypotheses lead to predictions that can be tested in various ways.
In general, the strongest tests of hypotheses come from carefully controlled and replicated experiments that gather empirical data. Sometimes, mathematical or physical models are used to test predictions.	The most conclusive testing of hypotheses comes from reasoning based on carefully controlled experimental data.
(see below)	The best hypotheses lead to predictions that can be tested in various ways.
Depending on how well the tests match the predictions, the original hypothesis may require refinement, alteration, expansion or even rejection.	Depending on how well additional tests match the predictions, the original hypothesis may require refinement, alteration, expansion or even rejection.
This evaluation and modification of the original hypothesis then leads to the development of new predictions.	(see above)
Eventually, with enough verified support, a general theory may be developed, sometimes unifying a large body of evidence.	If a particular hypothesis becomes very well supported, a general theory may be developed

Close

I know that the text is not strongly in contradiction with any philosophy, but that is only because the empiricist view (starting from observations to maybe eventually get to general laws theories), which is clear in the slide show is less clear given the context of the article. But, a wikipedia article should not present a vague view that is in the middle. Neutral point of view does not mean a point of view in the middle. Dominic Mayers (talk) 20:25, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Please propose an alternative source. Biogeographist (talk) 20:39, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Also, in your last paragraph, you used the term "general laws". This term is not used in the source. Garland used the term "general theories", which he defined as "a set of interrelated ideas, well-supported by evidence". This is a vague definition (what are these ideas? how does one interrelate them?) that doesn't specify what kinds of theories there are, or how theories are different from and related to laws, models, explanations, etc. So we shouldn't presume that Garland's general theories = general laws. They could be more like explanations than like laws or models. The source doesn't tell us.

Here is a little more information that I found about the Garland source: It is listed in this list of lesson plans and lectures of the Institute for the Development of Educational Applications as a "lecture" "for high school or college" (of course, it's not a lecture, just a set of slides as far as I can see). It was added by Whatiguana in this March 2015 edit, and Whatiguana even updated the URL of the source very recently in this February 2021 edit, so Whatiguana apparently likes this source, and I would be interested to hear their opinion in this discussion. Biogeographist (talk) 22:33, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

By the way, here is a source by two biologists that supports my claim above that there is biology research that proceeds roughly as Garland describes (though this is not a defense of using the Garland source, since the vagueness and lack of generalizability of the Garland source still disqualifies it): Dhar, Pawan K.; Giuliani, Alessandro (March 2010). "Laws of biology: why so few?". Systems and Synthetic Biology. 4 (1): 7–13. doi:10.1007/s11693-009-9049-0. PMC 2816229. PMID 20186254. The reason why bottom–up approach is preferred in biology is due to the presence of the large variety of context-dependent data types. ... In biology, it is difficult to conceive the existence of (1) components with predictable behavior, (2) non-decomposable components similar to the elements of a periodic table and (3) universal biological constants equivalent to those of the physical constants. In essence there is no 'standard trajectory' in biology—every biological decision is optimal in a given environmental context. However, due to complex nature of biological organization it is difficult to think of a universal law or a theory in biology connecting all the levels, from atoms to ecosystems. One should look for generalizations at various levels instead. To find such generalizations it is useful to develop novel measurement technologies that capture the dynamic nature of biological systems and more importantly catch emergent properties arising from a group behavior of interacting components. Biogeographist (talk) 02:34, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

(Quick apology for formatting I've never done this before, I believe this is the right place but I'm not entirely sure, tell me if it's not).

I believe there is a particular passage from the 'Hypothesis' section of 'Overview' that contains charged and biased language. It is thus:^[2]

Researchers normally want to show that the null hypothesis is false. The alternative hypothesis is the desired outcome, that the drug does better than chance.^[2]

There are two ways I find this passage lacking. The first, that which researchers 'wish' to do is not important and could conceivably be contrary to what the 'goal' of the research is. Whereas the process of research can be affected by researchers' wishes, the point of, frankly, the entire article is what is actually done in the process. Second, it is trivial to arrive at situations where the 'goal' of the research is not to invalidate but in fact to validate the null hypothesis, but again this is inconsequential. Whether the researchers' goal is for the null hypothesis to be validated or invalidated should not have bearing on how the process is conducted. In short, the question is 'is the null hypothesis true or is the alternative hypothesis true'. It is not 'how do we show that the null hypothesis is false and the alternative true'.

When first I read this I thought it should be deleted, but the section of 'Hypothesis' is fairly light on content and could do with a better definition of the null and alternative hypotheses.

I am no statistics major but here is a possible definition from the page linked, some of which could replace what is currently written:

Null and alternative hypotheses^[3]

Statistical inference begins by recognizing that research questions can be stated in terms of a choice between two very clear and mutually exclusive options. One option holds that the predicted difference between comparison groups does not exist out in the real world (the population). The only reason that the two group means are different from each other is chance. This first option is known as the null hypothesis. The other option is that the predicted difference does exist out in the real world. There is a reason (other than chance) why the two group means are different from each other. This second option is known as the alternative hypothesis. The alternative hypothesis is almost always the outcome that the researcher predicts will happen. For example, if the researcher predicts that younger adults will make more errors than a group of older adults the alternative hypothesis for the test of this idea is that "the mean number of errors for the younger group will be significantly higher than the mean number of errors for the older group". The null hypothesis is the opposite of the alternative hypothesis. The null hypothesis in this situation is that "the mean number of errors for younger adults is not significantly greater than the mean number of errors for the older group".^[3]

User:ElAjusco 03:53, 26 May 2021‎

ElAjusco Ordinarily, I do not edit another editor's post. In this case you clearly state the formatting is new to you, and I believe we both want to repair the article, so I have touched your contribution on this talk page. It's important not to directly use Pierce's text in the article itself, so I propose the following repair, which uses subjunctive mood to be rid of the Researchers normally want ...:

Candidate version: A statistical hypothesis is a conjecture about a given statistical population. For example, the population might be people with a particular disease. The conjecture might be that a course of treatment cures the disease in the treated population. A null hypothesis conjectures that the statistical hypothesis is false: that the treatment does nothing and that any cure of the disease in the treated group is caused by chance. Researchers might expect that the null hypothesis be false. An alternative hypothesis, to be falsifiable, must show that a treatment does better than chance. To demonstrate this, a portion of the population (the control), is to be left untreated, while another separate portion of the population is to be treated. t-Tests could then specify how large the treated and the untreated groups are to be, in order to infer whether some course of treatment has resulted in a cure. Strong inference could alternatively propose multiple alternative hypotheses, treatments A, B, C, ... so as not to introduce confirmation bias in favor of a specific course of treatment (ethical considerations could be used, to minimize the numbers in the untreated groups, e.g., use almost every treatment in every group, but excluding A, B, C, ..., respectively as controls).

--Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 07:52, 26 May 2021 (UTC) (I signed my post by typing --~~~~)

Modified candidate version (Strikethrough for deletion, underline for addition): A statistical hypothesis is a conjecture about a given statistical population. For example, the population might be people with a particular disease. The conjecture might be that a course of treatment cures the disease in the treated population. A null hypothesis conjectures that the statistical hypothesis is false: that the treatment does nothing and that any cure of the disease in the treated group is caused by chance. Researchers might expect that the null hypothesis be false. An alternative hypothesis, to be falsifiable, must show say that a treatment does better than chance. To test this, an experiment is designed in which a portion of the population (the control), is to be left untreated, while another separate portion of the population is to be treated. t-Tests could then specify how large the treated and the untreated groups are to be, in order to infer whether some course of treatment has resulted in a cure. Strong inference could alternatively propose multiple alternative hypotheses, treatments A, B, C, ... so as not to introduce confirmation bias in favor of a specific course of treatment (ethical considerations could be used, to minimize the numbers in the untreated groups, e.g., use almost every treatment in every group, but excluding A, B, C, ..., respectively as controls).

Dominic Mayers (talk) 09:24, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

 Done --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 23:01, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

@User-duck: What is the end state that you are aiming for with your recent edits to this article's notes and references? You seem to be doing some major restructuring, but given the article's current state I am not seeing where you are going with these edits. Biogeographist (talk) 17:40, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

@Biogeographist: The only "restructuring" is separating the notes.

A variety of things;

1. Started with eliminating CS1 errors/warnings/messages concerning SFNs. These change at whomever's whim. It is one thing to have warnings about "long volume name", etc. and another to not offer any remedies.
2. Separating notes from references. Notes do not belong intermixed with references, especially long ones. Good way to hide unsupported statements, there may be some, if you want to check.
3. Consistent ref and cite formating, Using templates helps greatly. Also, quotes from sources should be after SFN. Sometimes difficult to tell notes from quotes.
4. General maintenance. Have encoountered several source cites with dead URLs. Combining refs and cites are part of this.
5. Unreferenced sources should be "Further reading". Absolute determination cannot be done until all references are checked.
6. Maybe re-title sections: "References" -> "Sources"; "Notes" -> "Notes" & "References"

Have not figured out the Collected Papers source ref/cites yet.

Wikipedia talks about consistency but it is difficult when they enourage diversity.

There is a "CS1 maint: postscript" message that I have not tracked down yet, I suspect a template but will take some time to find.

Thanks for interest. User-duck (talk) 19:11, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. I'm glad you mentioned re-titling sections; it looks a little strange currently with two types of notes together with no separation. All the examples listed at Template:Efn#Example articles have separate sections for different types of notes. That's the number one reason why I couldn't ascertain exactly what you were doing. Ideally all short citations would be separated from long citations as well, as in the example of Chinese room listed at Template:Efn#Example articles. Biogeographist (talk) 19:34, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

The reformats are affecting the footnotes. When I use NavPop to read the footnotes, for example (Lakatos 1976) I can no longer read the note at the same time as the text. --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 01:50, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

I can no longer read the note at the same time as the text: That is always true with shortened footnotes; they require clicking on the author-date citation to jump to the full citation and then using the back command to return to the previous spot in the article. If you are opposed to this, then the alternative is to remove shortened footnotes and the extra reference list and put all full citations in standard footnotes. Either way, some restructuring would be required to reach a uniform citation style. This article did not previously have a uniform citation style, and per the WP:CITE guideline "imposing one style on an article with inconsistent citation styles" is generally considered helpful, but if there is disagreement then consensus should be established about which style shall be used. Biogeographist (talk) 14:59, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

I have learned that <ref name= someName group= Note> can be used to separate notes and refs, and NavPop can still be used for readable links and footnotes; I just now used your efn suggestion for notes, in the article. Named refs such as my snippet above can reuse citations, like the harvard-style sfn's currently being added. I have found that the {{rp| etc.}} can also be used for ref/note page numbers. --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 01:05, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Would any editor object to omitting the Oxford English Dictionary citation? It asks for a sign-in. --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 17:00, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

Is there any other reason to omit it? It seems to have influenced the form of that paragraph, and if it has, it would be better to retain the reference. If you just need to know what it says, it defines scientific method as: "A method of observation or procedure based on scientific ideas or methods; spec. an empirical method that has underlain the development of natural science since the 17th cent." In smaller print it elaborates: "The scientific method is now commonly represented as ideally comprising some or all of (a) systematic observation, measurement, and experimentation, (b) induction and the formulation of hypotheses, (c) the making of deductions from the hypotheses, (d) the experimental testing of the deductions, and (if necessary) (e) the modification of the hypotheses; though there are great differences in practice in the way the scientific method is employed in different disciplines (e.g. palaeontology relies on induction more than does chemistry, because past events cannot be repeated experimentally). The modern scientific method is often seen as deriving ultimately from Francis Bacon's Novum Organum (1620) and the work of Descartes. In the 20th cent. Karl Popper's idea of empirical falsification has been important (cf. Popperian adj.)." The typical OED list of historical references follows. "scientific method, n.". Oxford English Dictionary (Online ed.). Oxford University Press. Retrieved 2021-08-21. (Subscription or participating institution membership required.) Biogeographist (talk) 22:23, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

I have been trying to follow Kuhn's citation using JSTOR,^[1] because it states incorrect sentences, according to scientific method. The problematic sentence which alerted me is "The route from theory to measurement can almost never be traveled backward" (Kuhn 1961 p.166). Reformulating proposed hypotheses is of course the subject of the article.

The sentence can be refuted with a trip to the hardware store, where you can buy a voltmeter for $11 (the price of the instrument is only part of the cost, of course). It can also be refuted by Feynman's trick of using a simple example problem domain (mentally) to follow a researcher's hypothesis; when the simple example domain (a thought experiment which you keep to yourself) deviates from the mooted hypothesis, just inform the researcher. Kuhn's article is also outdated; he states General Relativity is untestable (Kuhn 1961 p.168) which is refuted by the LIGO, and tests of general relativity, not to mention the global positioning system.

What I propose is to re-use the citation (pp.164-165) to reinforce the concept of error (the difference between expected and actual values, i.e. random variables) which uses Mackay 1969's reference on uncertainty limits, and strike the paragraph citing Kuhn 1961 p.166. --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 14:33, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

I have been trying to follow Kuhn's citation using JSTOR,^[1] because it states incorrect sentences, according to scientific method. The problematic sentence which alerted me is "The route from theory to measurement can almost never be traveled backward" (Kuhn 1961 p.166). Reformulating proposed hypotheses is of course the subject of the article.

The sentence can be refuted with a trip to the hardware store, where you can buy a voltmeter for $11 (the price of the instrument is only part of the cost, of course). It can also be refuted by Feynman's trick of using a simple example problem domain (mentally) to follow a researcher's hypothesis; when the simple example domain (a thought experiment which you keep to yourself) deviates from the mooted hypothesis, just inform the researcher. Kuhn's article is also outdated; he states General Relativity is untestable (Kuhn 1961 p.168) which is refuted by the LIGO, and tests of general relativity, not to mention the global positioning system.

What I propose is to re-use the citation (pp.164-165) to reinforce the concept of error (the difference between expected and actual values, i.e. random variables) which uses Mackay 1969's reference on uncertainty limits, and strike the paragraph citing Kuhn 1961 p.166. --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 14:33, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

One of the sections of the article newly cites Robert Nola, who was drawn into the controversy over Mātauranga Māori, which is the corpus of belief, pre-European colonization. The argument is that the Māori guides to navigation across the Pacific are a posteriori, and hence empirically derived. I propose to incorporate the argument, as part of empiricism, into the article. --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 01:41, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

The relevant part of the first reference is:

Newton, Issac (1999) [1726 (3rd ed.)]. Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica

This is incorrect because his name is spelled as Isaac and not Issac. It is also not how they spelled his name in that edition. ^{[1] [2]}

the scenfifc method has been here for 1500 year helllo — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.158.246.136 (talk) 18:10, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

These citations are from Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica (1687), which covers the motion of the planets. Biology is another branch of science, which is not addressed by the Principia, but rather part of what Newton termed the ocean of truth which lay around him, undiscovered and unexplained. "I seem to have been only like a boy, playing on the sea-shore and diverting myself in the now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me." —Newton (1747) --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 17:53, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Chpter no 2 understanding the concepts question/answer 39.36.63.69 (talk) 16:59, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

You might start with How to solve it by George Polya, including his "express the problem in your own words", which is part of step One: Understand the problem. That is, ask questions of yourself, and seek their answers (this search is a never-ending process). --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 17:53, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

If you can't understand the first question, find a second question, related to your problem, that you can answer. Repeat this process until you get to something that you can re-state to yourself, in your own words. That would be a signal that you understand it. --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 18:15, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect DNA experiments and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 April 19#DNA experiments until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Steel1943 (talk) 20:00, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

Good evening For your assignment activity ( Science)

Answer the following questions in your Science Activity notebook.

Activity 1 Title: Scientific Investigation

1. . What is Scientific Investigation?
2. . How important is Scientific Investigation in the empirical nature of science?
3. . What is Scientific method?
4. . Enumerate and discuss the steps in scientific method.
5. . Differentiate Observation from Inference. 2001:4453:243:5000:8035:133B:1320:7B6C (talk) 05:02, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

How to answer this? Dezendenur (talk) 05:09, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

See How to Solve It --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 10:06, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

A section above has more about this. I found a video clip as well. Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 11:12, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

This edit request to Scientific method has been answered. Set the |answered= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

In practical application, the scientific method provides a methodology whereby only verifiable, reproducible empirical experiments subjected to doubt/skepticism lead to a justifiable approximation of reality <Pelzek> 73.208.238.84 (talk) 06:52, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 08:05, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Control in experiments is critical for internal validity, which allows you to establish a cause-and-effect relationship between variables. 204.133.30.36 (talk) 17:23, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

Remember that this is a forum for discussing the content of the article. Do you wish to propose a change? RockMagnetist(talk) 17:27, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

Text "In particular, Paul Feyerabend, in the 1975 first edition of his book Against Method, argued against there being any universal rules of science;[17]" points to incorrect reference. "Against Method" is currently reference [139] Feyerabend, Paul K., Against Method, Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge, 1st published, 1975. Reprinted, Verso, London, 1978. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.163.122.18 (talk) 10:09, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

Unless you have read the citation given, it is most likely a better secondary source, which is what we prefer. CV9933 (talk) 10:32, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

"the truth consists of hard-to-vary assertions about reality is the most important fact about the physical world" --David Deutsch#Invariants is already cited in the article.

If a thought experiment were to become the basis of a science, it would need to be invariant. That's a high barrier, compared to a real experiment. -- Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 15:57, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Thought experiments are important, especially in physics. I don't say they all what's required to pass as a theory, but they are the beginning of a theory. E.g. Newton knew the speed required to bring an artificial satellite in orbit. tgeorgescu (talk) 16:15, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Tricky thing is that just as there's no science as to what counts as science (see the Demarcation problem), there's no science as to what counts as the scientific method — which is really just so much more of an attitude of rationality and openness to evidence that we just "know it when we see it". Otherwise the articles on science and its "method" would be easy to hammer out — things would either be correct or incorrect, not debatable. The consensus for school children does not mention mind experiments explicitly as valid. But the consensus among science philosophers and historians is obvious: Einstein isn't the only one who figured out quite a bit in his head long before anything was proven on paper (let alone in the physical world). For example I think it wasn't until the 1960s or 70s that we could finally do our first experiments to validate relativistic time by flying some atomic clocks around for a few hours and then comparing them. Clearly, the work was already considered real science long before the experiment was conducted. Destrylevigriffith (talk) 16:44, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

The scientific method is for establishing new knowledge (to the extent that predictions are possible in the new, unknown domain). In a nutshell, that's the demarcation problem. If the prediction/explanation has to change to match observation, the explanation fails (is shown to be in error), as stated in the article. Conjecture/ hypothesis is welcome, of course, but has to be tagged as such. When a scientist changes his explanation to match the observation, this is tampering. The article explains this point (e.g. researchers are to sign and date their contribution as part of their protocol; have separate teams for explanation versus experimentation, etc.). We don't yet know how to do this for an experiment conducted entirely in one's mind. There is room for physical, communicable experiments, not involving neologisms. Digital twinning is far from thought experiment, as yet.

One thousand years ago, Alhacen (Ibn al-Haytham) made your point, that scientists are not free from error, and proved several points (in optics and in space science) to be in error, using experiment (it's in the article). So an open question in science has to be recognized as such; the science at that point remains a model, only a concept. --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 18:49, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

My point: thought experiments are a tool in the scientific method. They are of course not the only tool. Evidence is needed to test their assumptions. tgeorgescu (talk) 22:05, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

I iterated this post several times now as I worked through the article (and hopefully managed to make useful changes).

The only question I have remaining is on the general scope of the article. Several sections (Scientific inquiry, Philosophy, and Relationship with mathematics) seem they are very much their own thing and, to me, well-outside the scope of the article.

Are they here simply because of the high article traffic and to give people jumping off points to further reading? And have they been justified previously?

JackTheSecond (talk) 22:42, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your updates. The sections you mention used to have extensive coverage in this article. They relied on the thinking of Charles Sanders Peirce, based on the thousands of posts to his papers. User:The Tetrast was called to lead a Peirce website, and stepped away from this article a dozen years ago. User:Jon Awbrey (see Template talk:Infobox philosopher/Archive 1) and User:Prof. Carl Hewitt also contributed to the scope of this article, and to the encyclopedia.

In the last decade, the rise of proof assistants is directly traceable to Peirce, Wittgenstein, Emil Post, Alonzo Church, etc. These influences (as documented in the arXiv.org and Internet Archive) show that mathematical method and scientific method have intertwined since the 1870s. --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 09:28, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Well, those are literal lifetimes of history... I think the most actual contribution beyond a copy edit I could give the article would be to introduce an {Empty section} on 'Modern methodology and the scientific method', as the article seems to be quite light on things past the 1960s.

Another suggestion I have is to write a 'DNA Experiment' header for the 'Confirmation' header, that gets into how DNA research moved on since. JackTheSecond (talk) 11:00, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

This 2018 diff shows that the vision for the 'History' section of the article had been to give a brief overview with a link to the article 'History of scientific method'. It has now grown and there should probably be a conversation about what to do with it and the 'Theory' section.

• Should the section keep growing? In my opinion the main article should have a complete (even if brief) History section and that means expansion at the moment. (Which is why I introduced sectioning, to encourage and organise; even if I don't know if the focus is entirely correct.)
• Is the heavy use of notes justified? And is it implemented in the best way... is perhaps the better question.
• The 'Theory' section I introduced should probably be moved or even merged elsewhere. I just didn't know what to do with one particular paragraph formerly in the 'History' section and wrote an introduction to a fitting section. ~

JackTheSecond (talk) 19:42, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

I added an anchor to characterization; credit for this term is due to user:Banno back in 2004. --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 11:24, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

While adding details to a math sub-article in lambda calculus I was surprised to see a note explaining how John Forbes Nash arrived at his Nobel-level result in Nash equilibrium. (Nash's method was to apply the fixpoint concept to game theory. Nash used the Kakutani fixed-point theorem. A Hair whorl is a concrete example of a fixpoint; fixpoints are a feature of lambda calculus, but the meaningful use of fixpoint requires the ability to shift one's ontological level midstream during one's investigation (This can be implemented with lambda calculus' abstraction operator ${\displaystyle \lambda }$ etcetera ${\displaystyle .}$ (The lambda and the dot demarcate the level of discourse about the topic, which is denoted etcetera here). Thus philosophical training (e.g. ethics, ontology, deontology ...) is needed to understand a scientific result (see John Locke's influence on scientific training). I learned this scientific requirement from a comment by Allen Newell (namely that he usually thinks on multiple levels simultaneously). The discussion on this talk page is an illustration of our need to denote the contextual level when we are communicating with each other.

There is a surprising breadth to the Wikipedia corpus, isn't there. (This italicized name was bestowed by the big data websites.)^[1]

-- Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 08:43, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

The further I get into the topic of the article, the more I come around to the idea that the first sentence of the lead section should not read 'empirical' and even more so not 'empirical method'. My arguments are:

• The empirical method is its own, much more limited, concept.
• Empirical implies empiricism, which is what the scientific method is built on, but far, far from being descriptive of it.
• Most openly available sources do not actually use 'empirical'. Source 2 and Britannica both do not; The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy's entry on "Scientific Method" does not.^[1] (Source 3 does).
• And, above all, that Thomas Kuhn was right when he wrote about the scientific method being a 'social framework', as written about in the article already here (second paragraph).

The previous (quite high-quality) discussion that added the term was started by User:Markworthen and is archived here: 2018.

What I would change the opening line to (without the brackets):

1. The scientific method is the sociological framework that has characterized the sciences since the 17th century. (Thomas Kuhn)

2. The scientific method is a framework for procedure that has characterized the sciences since the scientific revolution of the 17th century.(Thomas Kuhn + source 2)

3. The scientific method is the sociology of science. It is not a sequence of steps, or elements – even if this article, as many educators do, will section itself such in order to give structure to explanation. (the flippant version)

4. The scientific method is a method of procedure that characterized the sciences since the scientific revolution of the 17th century. (source 2, verbatim)

I like 1 most, because the way Kuhn's definition works allows for other interpretations of it as well—no matter if one's views on it are informed by Dewey, Feyerabend or anyone in between. JackTheSecond (talk) 23:58, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

You have a point. I think the scientific method is generally a method of induction and is metaphysical. I am thinking of Francis Bacon and going back to medievals like Roger Bacon. Ramos1990 (talk) 00:39, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

I don't see any way to avoid the empirical aspect of what this article is talking about: the article is not talking about purely formal a priori knowledge. There is an empirical aspect.

I don't think it's true that Empirical implies empiricism (where empiricism refers to a particular epistemological view opposed to, e.g., rationalism) as JackTheSecond said above. Empirical can refer to the experiential or experimental aspect of a procedure, as opposed to, e.g., guessing or looking up data in an actuarial table. And, again, that empirical aspect is central to what this article is talking about.

Saying that the scientific method is sociology or sociological seems badly misleading in at least one respect: physicists, for example, are not doing sociology when they use scientific method. You seem to mean that it is social, but that property does not differentiate it from most other human activities.

For all the stated reasons, I don't see any one of the proposed sentences as an improvement over the status quo (which is not to say that that the current lead sentence could not be improved). Biogeographist (talk) 15:42, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

The scientific method is a set of principles and procedures to acquire knowledge by careful observation; inducing from those observations falsifiable hypotheses; and in most, but not all disciplines, designing experiments to test those hypotheses; refining hypotheses based on experimental findings; and inferring tentative truths from the observations and experiments. Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) [he/him] 17:19, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Good point - empirical method is imprecise and not consistent with the article as a whole. How about replacing it with scholarly method? Scholarly method is not controversial (I don't think) and is consistent with the article as a whole. Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) [he/him] 17:37, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

A couple of suggestions to play with:

• The scientific method is a scholarly method for acquiring knowledge that has characterized scientific inquiry since the 17th century, albeit with much debate regarding how scientific discovery actually occurs.
• The scientific method, a systematic approach to acquiring knowledge, has been a hallmark of scientific inquiry since the 17th century. However, there is considerable debate about the actual process of scientific discovery.

Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) [he/him] 17:53, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

I think while scholarly method does a good job of putting the method into context, it doesn't do a good job actually saying what the 'scientific' method is. JackTheSecond (talk) 19:00, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

@Markworthen: If you are responding to me, as your indentation implies, then I have to clarify that I did not say that empirical method is imprecise and not consistent with the article as a whole. I was defending the use of the word "empirical", which I consider to be an essential differentiator of science as factual knowledge from purely formal a priori knowledge, on the one hand, and wildly imaginative guessing on the other hand: this article is not primarily about either of the latter two cognitive modes. Scientific method for factual knowledge is more than only empirical, but the empirical is an essential aspect.

Scholarly method isn't quite right because scholars of the the arts, for example, are scholars but do not necessarily use scientific method. Furthermore, dictionaries often indicate, and rightly in my view, that the term "scholar" is especially associated with the humanities (which, of course, is not to say that there is no scholarship in science).

Something like your second proposed sentence would be better if it retained the word "empirical", for the reasons I mentioned above, e.g.: "The scientific method is an empirical and systematic approach to acquiring knowledge that has characterized the development of science since at least the 17th century." Biogeographist (talk) 18:30, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Biogeographist - Sorry, I got the indention wrong. I meant to reply to JackTheSecond. I fixed the indention just now. Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) [he/him] 16:54, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

You may be right about Kuhn and sociology not being a better solution. It is confusing, even if the point I was trying to make still stands (to me) that 'empirical' does not do enough. The only other leads I was able to come up with were the historical approach:

The scientific method is an empirical method for acquiring knowledge that emphasises rational thought. It first gained prominence during the scientific revolution as an expansion on early empiricism, and has characterized the development of the sciences since. It is often characterized by systematic observation and experimentation, reasoned thought, and the formation and testing of hypotheses.

and the perhaps more radical idea of replacing everything with what's currently called 'Overview'... the section has both the cohesion as well as the nuance required. (And we may just have to embrace its length...) JackTheSecond (talk) 19:37, 20 March 2024 (UTC) edit:@Biogeographist JackTheSecond (talk) 19:42, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

This proposal for the lead sentences looks fine to me in general. Biogeographist (talk) 19:54, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

JackTheSecond - Looks good to me too. Thanks for working hard on this. Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) [he/him] 16:57, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Another comment about one of JackTheSecond's initial claims above: Most openly available sources do not actually use 'empirical'. But all of the cited sources use one or more of the terms 'empirical', 'observing', 'observation', 'measurement', 'experiment', which are variations on the same empirical aspect. Biogeographist (talk) 19:33, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Hmm. That I feel is an unfair characterization of what I was saying. Calling it 'empirical method' is saying that the method is and empirical one. The other sources all say that the 'empirical aspect' as you called it is 'one of' the aspects. JackTheSecond (talk) 19:47, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

If there is an empirical aspect, and there is, then I think it's justifiable to characterize it as an empirical method, but there may be other ways to say it. In any case, I think your latest proposal looks good. Biogeographist (talk) 19:54, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

---

I've gotten around to User:Markworthen's idea of icluding 'scholarly method'. It's a neat way of putting things into context and avoids stating a definitive definition (that doesn't seem to have a scientific consensus anyway). New stab at a complete lead section (kind of deleting Popper; the inclusion seemed unduly selective // potential issue is that the second sentence of the first paragraph might count as copyvio from the (referenced) Stanford Encyclopedia; to me, it seems generic enough not to~):

The scientific method is a scholarly method for acquiring knowledge that has characterized the development of the sciences since at least the 17th century.^[a] It is often characterized by systematic observation and experimentation, inductive and deductive reasoning, and the formation and testing of hypotheses and theories.^[2]

Although procedures vary from one field of inquiry to another, the underlying process is frequently the same. The process in the scientific method involves making hypothetical explanations, deriving predictions from the hypotheses as logical consequences, and then carrying out experiments or empirical observations based on those predictions.^[3]

Though the scientific method is often presented as a fixed sequence of steps, it represents rather a set of general principles.^[4] Not all steps take place in every scientific inquiry (nor to the same degree), and they are not always in the same order.^[5][6]

JackTheSecond (talk) 17:55, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

I guess I mostly just didn't understand why falsificationism and scepticism were given preference. JackTheSecond (talk) 18:08, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

FWIW some notes on the above conversation:

• I do not like the word scholarly being given such prominence. Apart from being too original I think it implies that science is academic, and that what is academic is scientific. Scientific method is not a professional qualification.
• Scientific method is clearly not something which applies to all science, for example classical science, or any modern science which still works like classical science. It is mordern, and it is methodical/systematic.
• If you ask what it is systematic a long discussion is possible, but since the beginning of modern science all versions have been cautious of human bias, including most types of metaphysical explanations. So it is sceptical, and it involves as little as possible meaphysics. So I support the mention of scepticism and I would question any proposal to call it metaphysical in any simple sense.
• FWIW the minimalistic metaphysics which modern science can not avoid is the idea that there are laws of nature. But these only imply consistent underlying patterns of causation, which do not change from one day to the next. By definition this patterns which describe nature are not elements of nature and so they are metaphysical instead of physical. This type of thing is not what most people think of when they think of metaphysics.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 11:30, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
• Although induction and metaphysics can't be avoided modern scientific method tries to take it cues from empircal evidences, observations. So I don't really see a problem with saying it is empirical. Someone like Aristotle could do science without being empirical but he was not using scientific method.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 12:04, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

• I fully agree not to call it anything akin to 'metaphysical' or any version of the arguments on 'social constructs'. They are not useful; and they tend to be unhelpful, especially stated outright.
• On the issue over 'scepticism': I question mentioning scepticism specifically when rationalism isn't. And I felt like removing 'empirical' in order to replace it with some form of link to empiricism. The term currently links to 'empirical evidence' - which is valid, but also not at all philosophically valuable enough, in my view. And if we can't in the first sentence make clear what method is (and that seems quite the challenge to me) we can at least frame in a useful context.
• I think setting as equal a 'scholar' of something as an 'academic' is presumptuous. Being a scholar is more about the attitude with which you work, being an academic is about the system in which you work. An if we can't in the first sentence make clear what method is (and that seems quite the challenge to me) we can at least frame in a useful context.
• And, I'd like to read more on 'method clearly not being something which applies to all science', that statement seems like a quite broad rejection of any kind of unificationism.

JackTheSecond (talk) 12:10, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Aristotle did his marine biology at the Pyrrha lagoon, now called the Gulf of Kalloni, a specific situation from which he could make his many observations and conjectures. --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 12:33, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

One should note, that the lead paragraph as it currently appears on Google reads:

The scientific method is an empirical method for acquiring knowledge that has characterized the development of science since at least the 17th century. The scientific method involves careful observation coupled with rigorous scepticism, because cognitive assumptions can distort the interpretation of the observation.

... which doesn't mention experiments at all; 'the scientific method' as well as 'observation' twice; and is just generally useless. JackTheSecond (talk) 13:38, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

@JackTheSecond: Perhaps the first question is whether this article is about all science or just modern science, which insists on being "methodical", which was clearly a new demand made at the start of modern science. I think the answer is absolutely clear, and so if anyone disagrees they should explain why. Responses:

• Scepticism is something the empiricists and rationalists, or perhaps more usefully both Decartes and Bacon, agreed on. The whole idea of their being a need for method was connected with the idea that there is no force of nature which guides people to be unbiased. Therefore we have to be systematically cautious of being misled. That is what the term scepticism is referring to. Also, I don't think empiricism or rationalism are part of any serious definition of modern science. I think these categories can be seen as a questionable way of teaching people about the history of modern science, using an arguably unrealistic simplification. In any case, just taking them seriously, they contrast with each other by definition, and do not claim to cover all possible forms modern science.
• Scholarly implies academic. This is just how the English language works. Our readers will read things into our text.
• I don't know what you are referring to as unificationism. To me it is just a fact that not all science is "modern science", and modern science is a specific style of doing science in a systematically sceptical (critical, cautious) way. --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 14:44, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

• I feel it needs to be pointed out that your arguments against 'scholarly' are just as valid as an argument against 'empirical'. The implication of the word is wrong. Also, 'empirical' is not used anywhere in the article, in a sourced manner as to state 'this is method'.
• Thank you for your point on scepticism, the argument makes its inclusion much more apparent.
• Ah, you mean 'not all science' in a historical context. In that case, and you probably already agree anyway: Someone decided that the scientific discussion preceding the Age of Enlightenment was so fundamental as to be called some version of 'the first prominent one' and I am not here to question that. (WP:NOTTRUTH)
• Also, the second sentence that reads "It is often characterized by systematic observation and experimentation, inductive and deductive reasoning, and the formation and testing of hypotheses and theories." is sourced to a relatively authoritative enyclopedia, not just to a dictionary definition. (Currently there are two sources that are dictionaries in the lead.)
• Also, peripherally, the article is structured more like how science is taught in education than being about how science is done. Which is okay in my view, it's what most people will expect--but should be expanded upon.

I wrote another version; you are invited to comment on or even edit it: User:JackTheSecond/A new lead 'scientific method' Keep comments here, for centralised discussion. JackTheSecond (talk) 20:12, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

ping @Andrew Lancaster JackTheSecond (talk) 20:35, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

@JackTheSecond: I am not sure where to find the other version you mention.

• "The implication of the word is wrong." Sorry, it is how modern English works. We are meant to take that into account. I am a native speaker of English. If I am seeing that implication others will, and so we need another solution.
• "you mean 'not all science' in a historical context" Your third bullet is impossible to parse. Can you explain your point please?
• The second sentence you cite seems fine to me, and is consistent with what I am saying, but it only says "often characterized by", so it does not define what unites all forms of scientific method, which is something we need in the opening lines. What unites all forms of scientific method is that they aim to be systematically careful to avoid bias (ie they are systematically sceptical), and an important aspect of this is that modern scientific method always avoids explanations which rely on unobservable things (i.e. metaphysical explanations). In other words, scientific method uses observations. In other words scientific method is empirical, not metaphysical. (Empirical science is not the same as empiricism, just to be clear. Empiricism is a supposed position about empirical science.) Notice that there are various ways to word these things. As editors our job is to pick clear wording. In these notes I am just trying to note the elements I think are required.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 22:18, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

There is a link included above. ~ JackTheSecond (talk) 22:21, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. I think one concern is already clear, which is the word "scholarly". Personally I think one aspect of modern science, in contrast to previous science, is that it is less clearly distinct from practical technology (or artifice, to use the classical term). Shoe makers were different from classical philosophers/scientists, because they admitted their ignorance about what caused things. Shoemakers, like many engineers, rely on whatever they have seen works. Modern science no longer draws a big red line between these people and science. It no longer claims deeper understanding to be necessary. It is also just trying to work out what works. It is in other words less scholarly, and more practical. I also worry that you are pushing the text into a direction where modern science becomes Popperian, and all about testing hypotheses. It can be like this, but as far as defining modern science I think Popper and his ilk created no long lasting consensus, because their vision of science never matched how real scientists work. Anyway, for now I hope others will also consider and comment before we go further.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 22:31, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

@Andrew Lancaster I agree with retiring the discussion for the moment.

• On the question of the third point: You wrote that not all science is "modern science" and I was clarifying that I had not understood that previous. Doesn't matter, though, since I chose to retire the argument.
• You wrote: it does not define what unites all forms of scientific method. An issue with that is that there is significant disagreement with there being such a thing. But I recognise that you mean that we should write a Wikipedia lead a certain way, and agree with the assessment.

JackTheSecond (talk) 22:35, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

I did not say anything about retiring any arguments. I am calling for more people to give their feedback, in the hope my feedback is now clear enough to help point to some potential concerns. As you say, this is a topic where it is difficult to define the consensus about what unifies the topic itself. I guess I am suggesting that rather than using controversial ideas like those of Popper, scientific method can be uncontroversially be identified as something which defines modern science. Just to reflect on your third bullet, what makes modern science special is connected on the one hand to the split between science and philosophy, and on the other hand to the blurring of lines between science and technology. We've mentioned the question of what non-modern science is and I've suggested that one aspect of non-modern science is that it sees itself as different in kind from practical arts and technical methods. In contrast, some of the precedents for modern science are to be found in the arts and crafts, which are also in a sense methodical, and reliant upon physical observations. The avoidance of metaphysics and reliance upon observation are a big deal which seem to me to more or less enter into every discussion about what unifies modern science and makes it seek "method".--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:17, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Andrew Lancaster that calling it a "scholarly method" is not quite right, as I said above at 18:30, 20 March 2024 before Andrew joined the discussion. Why not just cut the adjective altogether: "The scientific method is a method for..." Biogeographist (talk) 21:55, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes maybe, but how to continue that sentence? What unites different ideas about scientific method might perhaps be something about the aim, but then again I suppose we can't just continue that sentence by using the word truth or certainty, can we, because that is also not something everyone would agree upon. But maybe we can use a negative wording. For example such method always aims to avoid or ameliorate the effects of bias, or other sources of error, by working in a careful and systematic way. Also, given the lack of consensus about the details of one ultimate scientific method, should there really be a "the"?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 22:18, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

should there really be a "the"? That basically seems to be a lie to children, perhaps harmless if the lack of consensus can be clarified later? Or do a more complicated lead that doesn't try to start with a (too simple) definition, as in the SEP article, which starts by talking about "The study of scientific method...". Biogeographist (talk) 22:24, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, the SEP article works quite hard at not actually defining what 'scientific method' is exactly. It's an Encyclopedia on philosophy written by philosophers though, unspecific statements that encourage thought are kind of their thing... JackTheSecond (talk) 23:10, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, after I posted that sentence about the SEP, I was reviewing in my mind all the ways that the SEP article is different from this one. The SEP article is not such a good point of comparison, although it does what it does well. The lead section of this article needs to reflect what this article actually says. Biogeographist (talk) 00:26, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

I think the SEP approach or something similar might be necessary. In any case, scientific method is not in fact a single method and so we should not imply that it is. It is instead an unclear goal, which has varied over time, and between different proponents and practitioners. It is in a sense a vision (or group of similar visions) concerning how science should be done in order to avoid biased interpretations of observations.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:11, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

A possible first sentence for consideration, attempting to avoid jargon or specific controversial positions, at least for the first sentence: Scientific method is any sceptical systematic approach used by scientists, especially modern scientists, when they interpret physical evidence.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 10:50, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

You will not be surprised to learn that this psychologist objects to "physical evidence."  ;^) Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) [he/him] 16:18, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

@Markworthen From my random readings about programming, a note in a computer article documented that John Forbes Nash may have started along his road back to mental health by learning how to program computers. Another factor might have been the consideration and tolerance toward him, as exhibited by his ex-wife, as well as that exhibited toward him in Fine Hall where he learned how to program on his own. (John Locke (a physician) is well known to have espoused such behavior (consideration and tolerance) toward others.)

Barendregt 2000 p.7 recommends a specific mathematical practice to maintain hygiene. -- Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 12:23, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Here is my attempt: The scientific method is a set of principles and procedures for acquiring knowledge through careful observation, inducing falsifiable hypotheses from those observations, and, in most disciplines, designing experiments to test the hypotheses, refining hypotheses based on experimental findings, and inferring tentative truths from the observations and experiments. Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) [he/him] 17:25, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Big problem: it is quite simply incorrect. There is no agreed set of principles and procedures. Please let's stop proposing anything which demands this assumption? More generally, I think the first sentence should be short and easy to understand. For example, anything which starts with "including" is surely for some later part of the lede. We must not try to fit everything into the first sentence! (Run on sentences are a big problem on Wikipedia.) :) --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 17:42, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

I like the term approach (lets not combine it with sceptical, though); it sets a direction quite nicely. ~ And I think 'systematic' is defendable as well, as just because nobody understands it, doesn't mean that it is not systematic; also the SEP uses it.

A poorly thought out (and most certainly atrociously written) idea would be: The scientific method is a systematic approach used by scientists to investigate phenomena, formulate hypotheses, conduct experiments or observations, analyse data, and draw conclusions. The discussion on how to best advance knowledge has defined the sciences since at least the 17th century,(insert previous note on the scientific revolution) and has at all points in time been subject to debate and disagreement.

I am sure "sceptical" fits in there somehow as well. (I don't really love 'falsifiable') JackTheSecond (talk) 19:05, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

The sentence should be generic. I think it should be similar to the lead with some extra wording from Jackthesecond "The scientific method is one of multiple methods for acquiring knowledge of the natural world that has characterized the development of science formally since at least the 17th century. It has at all points in time been subject to debate and disagreement since variations on how best to acquire knowledge do exist." Often times the scientific method is induction, but there are other methods like deduction and abduction and inference. Ramos1990 (talk) 20:16, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

@JackTheSecond: You proposal is a long sentence but I think it is not too bad at covering what it needs to cover. FWIW: normal English words which could explain "sceptical" enough for a first sentence include "cautious", "careful", etc. Systematic should indeed be useful because it is just a way of saying "methodical" in a sense which explains the original intention. The basic idea is that various aspects of the approach are planned or at least pre-considered, and there is an attempt to them logically consistent. One of the problems with all philosophical concepts is that the words become technical terms and people no longer get the original point.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 22:15, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

@Ramos1990: I think it is simply wrong to say or imply that there is "one" scientific method, and even more wrong to imply that there alternative scientific methods. The scientific method is also never just pure induction, and deduction etc are not alternatives to induction. You are confusing apples and oranges. Induction and deduction existed long before science, and long before method.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 22:15, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Hmm...not sure what this means "I think it is simply wrong to say or imply that there is "one" scientific method, and even more wrong to imply that there alternative scientific methods”. I agree that there is no "one" scientific method. See here for example. But what do you propose? I am following the "modern use and critical thought section" of the article. The "overview" section too does a good job that it is mainly principles, not formal steps or sequnce any scientist actually makes in practice. There are numerous ways to answer questions, not one method of course. Ramos1990 (talk) 22:47, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

@JackTheSecond: more comments on your proposal. In order to avoid implying that there is one method I still prefer to avoid "the", and I prefer "any" over "a". For example: Scientific method is any systematic approach used by scientists to try to minimize error and bias when interpreting phenomena, formulating hypotheses, and planning experiments or observations. In this example the bit which covers the sceptical or cautious aspect is the bit I have added about trying to avoid error or bias.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:59, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

I think any works fine. Pluralism seems the way to go, from what I've read, anyway. ~ I think you're going way to far with minimize error and bias though. The goal of science (and therefore of 'method') is progress, and therefore forward-looking. Trying to minimize error and bias is too self-reflective and implies sitting down and thinking about 'how to do things' not walking ahead and progressing science. We leave the thinking part to the philosophers. (Or us, in their absence...) JackTheSecond (talk) 10:10, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

If scientists do not think about how to minimize error and bias then they are not being methodical in the way demanded by modern science, or even by managers in production companies. If scientists just follow instructions blindly (unreflectively) then they they are arguably technicians, and not scientists. I know people don't use that distinction very much any more, but if they thought carefully about their words, this is what they mean (or meant). In any case for our purposes, if scientific method really exists, and if it is really used, then it is indeed a tiny bit philosophical. It is not an instruction book. Be as reflective as a person on a production line is not asking much when science and philosophy were once considered to aspects of the same way of life. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you but it seems that you think modern scientists are less reflective than nearly any way of life I am familiar with.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 11:37, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Just to take a step back and put it a different way, the concept "scientific method" will often be part of answers to the question "what makes any particular belief "scientific"?" Another related idea which would be likely in such answers is that scientific knowledge is the result of a more careful and reflective and, yes, philosophical, process than other types of belief. It is in a sense a belief that has been given extra quality control. In any case you've already noted that being systematically sceptical is part of modern science, and that means the same thing in practice, so we can still revert to just using that type of terminology. However, as with the word "method", the word "scepticism" is abstract/ technical for some readers. By avoiding them I was aiming to help them envision what happens in practice.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 11:51, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Scientific method is the systematic approach used by scientists to investigate phenomena, formulate hypotheses, and draw conclusions. It involves careful characterizations, coupled with rigorous scepticism because cognitive assumptions can distort initial perceptions and compromise the integrity of inferences.

I think 'the' works fine, because 'approach' is pretty broad. 'Any' would require a larger consensus, maybe. It also comes close to implying 'you can do anything' and is maybe a little much for the first sentence.

I think the first sentence is good this way. I used a slightly altered version of the second one, maybe you have an opinion. JackTheSecond (talk) 14:22, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

I still think "any" would be better. A possible compromise would be to qualify this with a word like "broad" perhaps. In any case I hope more editors will comment on these ideas. I'm putting aside your ideas about second sentences for now.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 20:03, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

I think we also have to be careful about letting the first sentence become a run on sentence, with lots of bits and pieces added to cover specific talk page issues. Maybe the first sentence should be simpler, in order to help make it easier to cover various points in other sentences. Here is an idea. Scientific method is any systematic approach or method used to construct and criticize scientific understandings of nature.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 06:20, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

JackTheSecond, you can remove my lengthy response as appropriate. I learned this from another editor, The Tetrast. American readers might recognize the relationship to Deism (which is not a religion --see Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, Douglas Hume, Freemasonry, etc.). Basarab Nicolescu has another stance/theory. Here is a real-time example for the discovery of like-minded collaborators. -- Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 11:26, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, something useful to think about! I do note though that none of that is in the lead. I find a title like that generally hard to justify in a scientific context. JackTheSecond (talk) 15:29, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

I propose to include belief revision, defeasible reasoning, and non-monotonic logic in the most recent 'Citation needed' as efns. These are topics in philosophy of logic which are now approachable with advances in formal syntax (meaning type theory). It should be possible to bridge to new contexts this way. So the efns will allow 'work in process' in parallel with the re-write now in process. -- Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 23:58, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

That's a good extension on what I am trying to do; to have links to basically everything covered in the article, as it is an oft-travelled one by people new to the sciences, who are motivated to learn more. I am not sure how to work that into the philosophical discussion, though; It sounds like a subsection on 'Scientific reasoning' in the section on 'inquiry' might work best.

The 'inquiry' section seems to me like a non-sequential approach to an explanation of what scientific method is. Reasoning would fit there, I think. (It seems to me someone in the past moved the sections on 'reasoning' out of the article, probably because they got too long or something.) JackTheSecond (talk) 00:46, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

This article appears to be adjoint to Knowledge representation and reasoning.

I have found a citation: Carl Hewitt (2015) Inconsistency robustness. This could be an organizing topic for the inquiry section: Inconsistency robustness. It resembles Paraconsistency. Belief revision, defeasible reasoning, and non-monotonic logic would all fit into this topic. The motivation for this topic is a fact: A large-enough software system must reliably handle inconsistency in its ontology, or go out of service (which is catastrophic for the business). In other words the large companies already have this feature in their automated systems, or they have a help desk. Hewitt sees that logic programming must evolve, like functional programming to be more precise and technical.

Classical logic (such as Law of excluded middle) fails in the face of inconsistency,^[1] but for mathematical constructivists the Law of excluded middle is invalid; a proof is to be constructed, to be trusted. This may be a way to handle inconsistency philosophically in the article. There is also Constructivism in science education, and in Constructivism (philosophy of education).

Four-valued logic#Applications has been realized as hardware. Electrical engineering students are routinely taught these circuits (which use high impedance and don't care in addition to true, false as logic states). This may be a way to handle classical logic's conundrums using hardware systems to reduce an expression. Humans seem to handle inconsistency on a routine basis to the extent that bounded rationality is unremarkable. But a scientific method would need to flag an inconsistency in a science. In other words, that method would need to identify the necessary Witness (mathematics) to keep things honest.

It should be noted that User:Prof. Carl Hewitt is now deceased. (He was a contributor to this article but was blocked from editing Wikipedia. This is unjust in my view.) (User:Robert Kowalski is also a contributor to the logic programming articles. He has an article.) -- Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 13:50, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Quite extensive. This is beginning to sound like it could fill a separate article on scientific reasoning. But I must admit that it'd take me too much reading to make informed statements on computer science. JackTheSecond (talk) 15:29, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

the section on predictions currently does not cite any sources, and the SEP article suggests predictions to be a goal of science, not a method as such. Maybe the content there should be moved elsewhere? JackTheSecond (talk) 20:51, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

The recognition of regularities in nature (outside the decrees of Man), such as the heliacal rising of Sirius, predicting the annual flooding of the Nile is well known. But there are other predictions in the article, such as the total solar eclipses, which were well-publicized for Graz in 1600 even though Tycho Brahe didn't believe in them. The eclipse track across North America on 8 April 2024 surely qualifies as prediction. Also, the global climate model giving rise to to numerical weather prediction and the weather events on the news are predictions.

Perhaps It takes recognition of a regularity to qualify as a methodological event. Fleck distinguished 'quotidian science' as outside the scope of new science, and scientific method is well-suited for discovering new, non-routine science as well as for maintaining a science. --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 00:29, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Oh, I am not saying that predictions aren't part of science. Just that predictions are a part of science more like (new) knowledge is, and not strictly how new knowledge comes to be. The examples are fine I think, and maybe the section is too. One of the examples could be moved there, maybe? JackTheSecond (talk) 08:38, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

I think I agree with Jack on this. Obviously some visions of scientific method aim to be able to create predictions, but this is in a sense the same as saying that aim to create testable knowledge, so "predictions", or certain types of predictions, are being treated as equivqlent to scientific knowledge.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:55, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

As @Andrew Lancaster suggested in this reversion with friendly revert of very bold editing. there is clearly no consensus for this radical change, and it would definitely need discussion first. there is no one canonical method, statistics is not essential to science, empiricism is diffierent from empirical science, etc. I should make my reasoning for a new way to lead the article clear.

I normally wouldn't have made changes this drastic without prior discussion... but the History section as is stands was unable to defend itself on merit. But even if it was, and even if it does again, I genuinely believe that the history of science is better framed in the examples throughout the text, as useful historic examples coupled with needed inspiration. The history section frames either the discord or the myth of science best; not method. It is therefore best placed with the Philosophy section to frame the discord that continues.

It seems to me as if the history of the 'History' section was that of first growing into a monster before discussion rectified that. It then tried... hard, at not really being a history section at all, before being cut dramatically again. It's now in a bit of a weird state, looking unfinished and with a focus on recent debate.

I also want to argue that anything that is 'current discussion' is not (strictly) history, and would be better covered in context; so should be moved, regardless of the other changes, into the section on 'philosophy' entirely. This would also prevent duplication.

Also, I figure if a lead section on reasoning was good enough for the Principia, it might just work for us as well... JackTheSecond (talk) 12:37, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

And on the side note of statistics not being essential to science... that's true, and maybe someone could find a better way to word the phrasing there. I do maintain that at least the principles of statistics are important in science; at least important enough to be of import to the public understanding of science, and therefore of relevance to this article. JackTheSecond (talk) 12:46, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

It might also be useful to my argument to point out that the paragraph of empiricism vs rationalism lead the article before the latest revisions as part of the history sections. And has stood for quite a while as well. My change *looks* quite a bit more radical than it really is.

I took two sources used in the lead but not in the article and expanded on them (Newton and Pierce), I wrote a section on inductive and deductive reasoning, phrasology used quite often throughout the article but unexplained -- the only actually controversial part are the principles of statistics.

Everything else, while likely to not be perfect (and maybe not even that good, what do I know...) is quite in line with what the article already was trying to be.

Sorry, I'm done with my argument now, and confident in it. JackTheSecond (talk) 15:18, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

I think things like statistics, maths, and logic (including induction and deduction) should probably be in the article somewhere, but not in an introductory section where they seem to be part of a single definition of "the" method. I am going to keep hammering the theme that we should avoid implying that there is one single agreed method. I do appreciate your efforts though.

Here is another one of my own crazy ideas. Maybe, we should have a first section after the lead which is about the pre-modern history and even etymology of the concept. (Method is an Aristotle word.) One source of this idea is simply that it is a typical Wikipedia approach that is easy to use, which can help us try to move into a discussion about some of the most important branches or approaches, without confusing specific types of method with method overall.

If we are going to use rationalism and empiricism as a structuring device then we have to be careful IMHO. As far as I know none of the historical figures who are used to exemplify these terms in university courses ever thought of themselves using these terms, or anything remotely similar. Newton is sometimes seen as someone who combined both. What this really means is that he was influenced by both Bacon and Descartes, but so was everyone else who was actually engaged in the practice of science. Personally I would prefer not to force reality to fit in this procrustean bed. I would rather that we structure our discussion in terms of Descartes and Bacon, and what really happened in science (Galileo, Newton). The safest way to discuss rationalism and empiricism is as the names of tendencies, or priorities, or arguments. (I can't find the perfect term.) The two extreme positions have possibly never existed in the real world. They are used to teach people about a certain epistemological tension which will never be resolved.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 16:35, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Hm, a bit unfoccussed your argument. -- I think your point about the avoidance of implication against there being a single scientific method of any kind is not based on what the article currently is, and therefore not an argument against my changes. Everything else you suggest seems like further work in the direction I was already taking.

Consensus might still be needed with at least a few other editors, but my arguments still stand comfortably. JackTheSecond (talk) 17:03, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Maybe we can agree to re-instate the edit and move the section to the bottom for now--until such time as a... gestation period has passed. JackTheSecond (talk) 22:08, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

In the spirit of my previous reply, perhaps this material can be adapted for use lower down in the article, but the idea of just moving it without reworking it seems odd to me. I continue to hope we'll get a wider range of input from other editors. From my point of view, even if you disagree, I think the material needs some review. I feel that in many small ways it is constantly pushing the idea that there is one "the" "canonical" method. This might not be deliberate. More generally the wording choices often feel like they are not written for readers who don't already know much about the topic. Topics are introduced without their relevance being explained, and this feels like it is intended to imply things. I think there are some distinctions which we need to be careful with in our wordings, such as the difference between empirical science itself, and empiricism.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 06:12, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Well, in the spirit of my previous reply: The implication of there being 'one' scientific method is in line with the current article, and not an argument against inclusion, I feel like. And the paragraph on empiricism has stood for years already.

I invite you to agree to self-revert your edit, move the section down to the very bottom, and... boldly fix what may be wrong with it. JackTheSecond (talk) 07:30, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. I am not sure that bold edits are the right way forward if there is no consensus about some of the basic themes. I personally have to concentrate on a few other things right now.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:59, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Hm, there actually is a section such as I was imagining at Models of scientific inquiry#Choice of a theory. I might just spin that off into a full article on 'Scientific reasoning' (currently a redirect to the 'models' article) and see where things go. JackTheSecond (talk) 18:21, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

I want to move the lead image to 'Elements of inquiry#overview' as the diagram features neither reasoning or integrity/truth/objectivity. Since it's a bit of a larger scale change, I thought I'd ask for indications of objections first. JackTheSecond (talk) 17:30, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

I'd be happy if that image was moved out of the lead. Predictable reason: it equates scientific method to one specific method. More specifically, this is basically a model used in schools and undergraduate courses. There is nothing wrong with it for those purposes, but it does not for example help us understand Newton.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 17:52, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm going to move it. Maybe more people decide to weigh in, but as no one has in previous discussion, I am going to presume a consensus. For the moment.

By the way @Andrew Lancaster, do you have literature on what you mean with 'multiple' scientific methods? -- Because while they all disagree on what it is, I didn't see anyone asserting there to be one than one yet. JackTheSecond (talk) 18:45, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

I wouldn't focus too much on my words on the talk page. I am mostly concerned about NOT saying that there is a single clear consensus-method. That is not the same as claiming that there are multiple methods. The way I read it, scientific method in practice is about trying to be methodical. That is the only common thread. Of course if you want an example of a written-out step-by-step method proposal, which is different from say Popper, you will be able to find many. Bacon himself proposed a method, but like the others it never really stuck.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 18:26, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for that clarification. My current understanding is that one useful interpretation is that scientific method is an attempt at explaining the nature of scientific progress. Who does the explaining and to whom and why differs greatly. So does usefulness. JackTheSecond (talk) 23:12, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

I think scientific method is originally a practical approach to doing natural science (studying nature), which is supposed to make science more effective and useful to mankind. Being strict about it I think you are jumping up one "meta" level and thinking of the study of scientific method, which might I think most typically be seen as part of epistemology. (Sorry, "meta" seems to have become a part of the language.) So the proposal to use this approach, and all the different proposals about how to do it, or studies about how it has been done in the past, such as Popper, Kuhn, etc, are not method as such. Does this seem wrong?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 11:16, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

I concur. :0) Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) [he/him] 14:17, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

JackTheSecond, here are some other sources for Elements of reason in the article (so we don't have to rely so much on SEP):

From induction--- Newton's account of the System of the World:(Newton (1846) Principia III 506-507 Motte translation) says:

But hitherto I have not been able to discover the cause of those properties of gravity from phænomena, and I frame no hypotheses; for whatever is not deduced from the phænomena is to be called an hypothesis; and hypotheses, whether metaphysical or physical, whether of occult qualities or mechanical, have no place in experimental philosophy. In this philosophy particular propositions are inferred from the phenomena, and afterwards rendered general by induction. Thus it was that the impenetrability, the mobility, and the impulsive force of bodies, and the laws of motion and of gravitation, were discovered. And to us it is enough that gravity does really exist, and act according to the laws which we have explained, and abundantly serves to account for all the motions of the celestial bodies, and of our sea.

From deduction--- There was a rival to Aristotle's logic (see Stoic logic#Arguments): Indemonstrable argument from the Stoics and Epicurus. The table below rewrites the Indemonstrables as Sequents. We can use sequents styled from Gerhard Gentzen's LJ natural deduction, in which we start from arguments A1, A2, A3 ... and arrive at conclusion C1. In symbols: ${\displaystyle \Gamma A_{1},A_{2},A_{3}...\vdash C_{1}}$□ . Note the single conclusion C1 for case ${\displaystyle \Gamma }$. This allows systematic debugging of a process, by abstracting out ${\displaystyle \Gamma A_{1},A_{2},A_{3}...\vdash C_{1}}$□ using case-based reasoning about that process.

Also if we look at propositional calculus, Peirce's law says that ((p→q)→p)→p. Equivalently ${\displaystyle ((p\to q)\to (p\land q))\to p}$. In Sequent form: ${\displaystyle ((p\to q)\;\to p)\;\vdash \;p}$. In words, " p must be true if there is a proposition q such that the truth of p follows from the truth of (p→q)".

In LJ sequent form we can even denote the hypothesis ${\displaystyle \Gamma \;(p\to q)\to p\;\vdash p}$ to distinguish hypothesis from the conclusion ${\displaystyle p}$, which comes after the turnstile (${\displaystyle \;\vdash \;}$), while hypothesis comes before the turnstile.

More information , ...

Indemonstrable arguments
Name[d]	Description	Modern sequent	Example
Modus ponens	If p, then q.  p.  Therefore, q.	${\displaystyle p\to q,\;p\;\;\vdash \;\;q}$	If it is day, it is light. It is day. Therefore, it is light.
Modus tollens	If p, then q.  Not q.  Therefore, not p.	${\displaystyle p\to q,\;\neg q\;\;\vdash \;\neg p}$	If it is day, it is light. It is not light. Therefore, it is not day.
Modus ponendo tollens	Not both p and q.  p.  Therefore, not q.	${\displaystyle \neg (p\land q),\;p\;\;\vdash \;\neg q}$	It is not both day and night. It is day. Therefore, it is not night.
Strong modus tollendo ponens	Either p or q.  Not p.  Therefore, q.	${\displaystyle p{\underline {\lor }}q,\;\neg p\;\;\vdash \;\;q}$	It is either day or night. It is not day. Therefore, it is night.
Strong modus ponendo tollens	Either p or q.  p.  Therefore, not q.	${\displaystyle p{\underline {\lor }}q,\;p\;\;\vdash \;\neg q}$	It is either day or night. It is day. Therefore, it is not night.

Close

If we add an idea from our own time, the Markup language, and cast it in Sequent form, we can highlight a problem that Newton posed to himself, by comparing the markup with his original statement:

But hitherto I have not been able to discover the cause ${\displaystyle \Gamma ...\vdash }$ of those properties of ${\displaystyle C_{1}}$ .. gravity from phænomena, and I frame no hypotheses; for whatever is not deduced from the phænomena ${\displaystyle A_{1},A_{2},A_{3}}$is to be called an hypothesis; and hypotheses, whether metaphysical or physical, whether of occult qualities or mechanical, have no place in experimental philosophy. In this philosophy particular propositions are inferred from the phenomena, and afterwards rendered general by induction. Thus it was that the impenetrability (from Galileo, ...) the mobility,(from Kepler, Newton ...) and the impulsive force of bodies, and the laws of motion and of gravitation, (from Newton ...) were discovered. And to us it is enough that ${\displaystyle C_{1}}$ gravity does really exist, and act □ according to the laws which we have explained, and abundantly serves to account for all the motions of the celestial bodies, and of our sea.

Newton founded his System of the World on experimental physics. He said^[1]

... 'tis much better to do a little with certainty, and leave the rest to others

Newton also said^[2]

I do not know what I may appear to the world, but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me.

Now Newton's 'ocean of truth' quote brings The rising sea to mind: Alexandre Grothendieck's mathematical method. The rising sea (Grothendieck's quote is on p.9 in a book of the same name, by Ravi Vakil, 2017). Rather than heroic methods of solution, Grothendieck's method is patience. He muses, and lets analogies come to mind. He demonstrates the solvent action of small processes (the water), so that problems are addressed naturally when reading the steps of a proof. (Colin McLarty: Grothendieck is trying to reach the natural topos for a problem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmcbm5FxRJE&t=518s . Compare to Grothendieck's scheme with Johnstone's Sketches of an Elephant, which seeks to determine the natural topos of a problem, in order to solve it. )

Lee Smolin has characterized the use of topoi as the proper setting for solving the cause of gravity. (In the meantime, perhaps we might well have to be patient, and just wait for new developments.

Thank you for your work on the article.)

-- Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 15:46, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

I'll probably write a section on logic... somehow. And I agree that references to the SEP article can be reduced--it's just quite the ardous talk to do so, when you don't know where to look for specifically. (If you want a look at the current state of... vague ideas: they live in my sandbox currently.) JackTheSecond (talk) 20:33, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Taleb is used in various statements throughout the article. His wikipage indicated he was... a stock-trader? I am sure he writes well, but should his writing as it is used here in context with method be scrutinized as WP:SYNTH? JackTheSecond (talk) 21:58, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Black swan is shorthand. It forces people to realize that classifications that were not expected (logic syllogisms that misclassify e.g. All swans are white, until you get to Australia); because black swans are real; what was thought of as logically correct is actually wrong in reality. So finance markets are agnostic about logic, but in fact reward performance because markets have to worry about reality (they have to unearth bias). --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 22:29, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Well, he is at least giving context only. Tow too seems quite non-serious scientifically, he together with Popper is used to counter Feyerabend, misrepresenting Popper in the process as well. JackTheSecond (talk) 12:04, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Smolin recounts how Feyerabend told him that we (plural) don't understand why/how science works (in the sense of adding new knowledge). How does Feyerabend count as an authority about method? Feyerabend's account of method is ex falso quodlibet, which is uneconomic. That 'account' does not let us trace any failures, so that we might fix a problem when it occurs. A good prediction gives a process a benchmark, an expectation to compare with observation/experiment in that process. When expected value matches observed value in an experiment or process, the error is low, and that allows us to produce more units (e.g. repeated experiment, or manufacturing step, etc.) with lower error, and to use those units in future processes with higher confidence. Taleb calls this practice anti-fragility. -- Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 22:22, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

That is all helpful information, thank you! I was trying to point out however that Popper basically said that there is (at least no complex) scientific method, only trial and error. -- And also that Tow's contribution to the discussion seems like either an off-hand remark or fringe science and carries the authority and influence of his book and a LinkedIn profile; I haven't found anything else.

For the record (and in case that was unclear) Feyerabend's influence seems to have been unhelpful, even if he may have had a point initially back when the unity of science was a big deal... I'm just saying that Tow and Popper don't seem like the best version of the argument. JackTheSecond (talk) 22:51, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

A quote from Staddon 2017: There is of course an alternative to evolution by natural selection: evolution by intelligent design (ID). I will take a little time on this issue because it shows how proof in science, especially on the margins, is not always cut-and-dried. Different people, with different backgrounds, will accept and reject different kinds of proof.

... I kind of want to throw him out too. JackTheSecond (talk) 10:11, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I got around to Taleb, I think. He seems to be a bit of a divisive figure, but his authority cannot be questioned out of hand at least. JackTheSecond (talk) 22:10, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

It kind of seems to me that the post-modern arguments and the debate of realism vs anti-realism are both not strictly relevant to this article as well as not at all useful... (*cough* to the article, neutral pov and stuff)

Also, there is a lot of 'the scientific method is this and can be represented as such' in the article, which seems reads a bit too definitive in places (especially as related to the simplified, circular model) ... are there issues with softening that?

2 points, feedback pls :) JackTheSecond (talk) 18:24, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Concerning the 1st point I don't see any discussion of post modernism. Also I get concerned on WP when I see editors imply that something is post-modernist and therefore should be removed. (I don't know if that is where you are headed.) I think that at least in philosophy post modernist ideas are often respectable, and not fringe ideas. But to be clear: I don't really know which bits you are talking about.

Concenring the 2nd point this reasoning sounds reasonable to me.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 18:30, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Collection of relevant quotes: (that were in the article before I started working on it)

• This ongoing debate, known as the science wars, is the result of conflicting values and assumptions between the postmodernist and realist camps. Whereas postmodernists assert that scientific knowledge is simply another discourse (this term has special meaning in this context) and not representative of any form of fundamental truth, realists in the scientific community maintain that scientific knowledge does reveal real and fundamental truths about reality. Many books have been written by scientists which take on this problem and challenge the assertions of the postmodernists while defending science as a legitimate method of deriving truth.
• that form the base of the scientific method – namely, that reality is objective and consistent, that humans have the capacity to perceive reality accurately, and that rational explanations exist for elements of the real world.

... and I am not arguing their removal based on their perceived usefulness but on the fact that they deal with the nature of knowledge, and that that discussion is on epistemology, not method. (So the subject may matter, to an extent--but the discussion does not.)

The part about the the "theory-laden" character of observation seems fine for example, even if I don't yet understand what exactly is going on there. It's about postpositivism and bias, but who exactly is saying what I haven't bothered overly much with yet.

Also just fine is not as the pursuit of truth per se but as the struggle to move from irritating, inhibitory doubts born of surprises, disagreements, and the like, and to reach a secure belief, the belief being that on which one is prepared to act btw, which relates the nature of knowledge with the pursuit. JackTheSecond (talk) 18:47, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

@Andrew Lancaster I forgot to ping. :) JackTheSecond (talk) 20:58, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Just to further explain my thought on the section formerly titled "Philosophy and sociology of science": I my view most of the things there should be put into the context of "current discourse" because they are not agreed upon. That currently means Feyerabend's views should be put into the context of "Freedom vs structure" or something. Hard not to synthesize that idea... JackTheSecond (talk) 22:17, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

The big difference Popper identifies between science and pseudo-science is a difference in attitude. While a pseudo-science is set up to look for evidence that supports its claims, Popper says, science is set up to challenge its claims and look for evidence that might prove it false. In other words, pseudo-science seeks confirmations and science seeks falsifications.

This edit request to Scientific method has been answered. Set the |answered= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Popper previously took ethical principles even further, going as far as to **ascrible** value to theories only if they were falsifiable. Popper used the falsifiability criterion to demarcate a scientific theory from a theory like astrology: both "explain" observations, but the scientific theory takes the risk of making predictions that decide whether it is right or wrong:[101][102]

change **ascrible** to ascribe 37.128.247.226 (talk) 13:53, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

 Done tgeorgescu (talk) 15:58, 19 June 2024 (UTC)