Talk:Ska/Archive 1

No one has attacked you. I have merely pointed out the truth that well known Jamaican artists have far more credibility than you do about the subject. What you are saying makes no sense. Pointing that out is not an attack.

Eyewitness accounts are FAR more credible than what a researcher has to say. Let the Jamaican musicians who were there at the time speak for themselves.

How can one promote a musical group that existed during the 1960s and doesn't exist anymore? It is impossible. This is historical content. There is nothing to promote. Show me what in THIS is promotional.

"According to Jamaican musical pioneers E. T. Webster (known as Errol T.), ^[1] Allie McNab, ^[2] and Bob Williams, lead singer for the popular Jamaican 60s duo Bob and Wisdom, ^[3], drummer Everton Paul, ^[4] and Cat Coore of the internationally known reggae band Third World (band), ^[5] during the 1960s, one of the most successful and highly paid musical groups in Jamaica was Billy Vernon and the Celestials, the resident band at the "Yellow Bird Club" in Montego Bay which toured many of the island's leading hotels. Their work was a blend of ska, mento, jump up and featured hits such as "Ska Suzanna," "Yellow Bird," and "Wings Of A Dove". A number of artists including "Errol "E.T." Webster," also known as "Errol T," ^[6] got their start in the music business with Billy Vernon and the Celestials."

Let an administrator come and look at it.

69.158.105.62 18:00, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Questioning whether or not I am Jamaican with the implication I don't know what I'm discussing is a personal attack.

You still have not provided any of the information requested. Posting websites of musicians and news articles mentioning the group does not show their contribution to ska music. You make unattributed statements to how popular the band was and how much the band earned, which is irrelevant to the subject. If you wish to write about Billy Vernon and the Celestials, start an article about them. You must provide legitimate sources to back up your claims for Billy Vernon and the Celestials contributions to ska music in order to meet the criteria for inclusion.Upsetterfc 18:08, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

I have provided quotes from eyewitnesses that wre there at the same time...if that is not a legitimate source, I don't know what is. Questioning whether you are Jamaican or not and whether you have direct knowledge of these matters is not an attack. It is a statement of fact. Surely you don't know more about reggae or ska than the artists that created it. The quotes I provided were from credible newspapers including JAMAICAN newspapers. Surely they have more knowledge about these matters than you do. The fact that you don't consider quotes about the Jamaican music scene from Jamaican musicians and Jamaican musicials to be credible is just plain bizarre.

You still have not produced one shred of evidence to back up your claim that information posted is promotional. One cannot promote what no longer exists.

Why are you afraid to have an administrator come and look at it? What is your real agenda here?

69.158.105.62 18:45, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

I requested admin help on October 1.

I have discussed band with JA music historian, they were a hotel band who happened to play ska as part of their set. That does not qualify them as historically relevant to article. I will provide source material when I receive it. Carlos Malcolm is more relevant to the ska history page and yet you do not mention his band or contributions.Upsetterfc 19:00, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Disagree. ANYBODY who knows about ska knows Ska Suzanna. That is a lot more than just playing other people's music as part of one's set. At no time did I say they only played ska. In fact, I listed examples of the other types of jamaican music they played.

About making further contributions to this page, I started with ONE contribution. Re: writing about Carlos Malcolm, if contribution of information about ONE group that was well known and did in fact record original ska has created this much back and forth, I certainly will NOT be wasting my time contributing information about other artists as I had intended to. The pages says you want contributions, surely you do not.

69.158.117.24 20:42, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

If you wish to write about the band, they should have their own article. Billy Vernon and the Celestials are not relevant to the history of ska music other than being one of many hotel bands who played ska music in Jamaica. They were a hotel band who played all different types of music for tourists, they did not have any roll in developing the sound. They just jumped on the bandwagon when the govt used ska to promote tourism.Upsetterfc 20:59, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Early definition needs more clarification.

1. Rude boy was not a subculture in Jamaica, it was local slang for criminal or gangster. It was used the same way a "hoodie" or "chav" is used currently. Also the rise of the "rude boy" song trend in Jamaica coincided with rocksteady.
2. Skinheads had little interest in ska in the late 60s. They were more interested in current sounds, i.e. reggae. Ska by the late 60s was having a revival as "big people music". More likely it was the parents who listened and fueled the sale of reissues that appeared in the late 60s, early 70s.

I will go through my books and find better citations for definitions. Upsetterfc 16:57, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Use better references. Reference to ska in article was mentioned as mod music. Interview with one band member is not proof of late 60s connection. Ska likely used to add context to interview. Only confirms that "One Step Beyond" remained popular through subculture transition from mod to skinhead. Upsetterfc 18:27, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

• First, rude boy was more than just a slang word. Yes, Jamaican rude boys were street criminals, but they also had distinct styles and behaviour -- as well as a common interest in rocksteady. That fits the definition of subculture. Second, you make it sound like there was a clean spit between mods and skinheads, when in reality there was overlap and transition. There was also overlap and transition in terms of the musicians who performed ska, rocksteady and reggae. Mods and skinheads both listened to soul, ska, rocksteady and reggae, becuase that's what was being played at the time. Many of the musicians who started out as ska also made the transition to rocksteady and reggae, and many of their fans followed. The "hard mods" mentioned in the one source were the first skinheads, before skinheads had an officially-recognized name. There has always been a link between ska and skinheads, and there still is today.Spylab 18:55, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

It's a minor link that causes confusion when defining the events. Reggae was the music skinheads listened to. The older siblings or parents were the ones who listened to ska. The mod and skinhead subcultures were new and evolving at the time, today's behaviors cannot be applied. Many older mods did not adopt what became the skinhead subculture, only a small minority did. The rest drifted into other subcultures or no longer indulged in "youthful behavior". Skinheads were a youth-driven subculture influenced by current trends at the time. Of course there was crossover, but you overstate the importance in defining what ska music was in the 60s in the UK. Present proper research to back up your claims of a strong historical link between skinheads and ska in the 1960s. Upsetterfc 21:03, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Didn't address rude boys the previous day...

Your interpretation of a commonality between Jamican rude boys, UK skinheads and rocksteady is circumstantial. In Jamaica, listening to rocksteady was not part of defining a subculture, it was mainstream Jamaican culture. If you listened to Canadian Top 40 radio in the mid 60's, that didn't by default make you part of a subculture. Rude boys were not trying to define themselves as a subculture based on music, which by the mid 60s was a shared commonality between most Jamaican at home and abroad. The subculture aspects would come from their political alignment with either the Jamaican Labor Party (JLP) or the People's National Party (PNP).Upsetterfc 14:52, 20 September 2007 (UTC)Upsetterfc 14:54, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Articles used are poor references, why is there such a need to connect early skinheads to ska music? It's simply not relevant to early history. Ska was not popular amongst skinheads until the first revival.Upsetterfc 15:12, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

• Where is your evidence that skinheads didn't start listening to ska until the late-1970s 2 Tone movement? My version of the sentence says "in many decades", which is true and backed up by references. Your version makes a very specific claim that needs to be backed up by very specific references. You make it seem like there was a clear cut between ska, rocksteady and early reggae, when in reality there was crossover and all three styles of music were played by certain bands and DJs during the same night. Why the the need to deny that ska and skinheads have been linked for many years? Spylab 15:27, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Never denied it, it is over-emphasied. It was not relevant to the subculture until mid-70s. If I could find some time from caring for baby, I'd find the relevant research and post it. I'm still waiting for your proof of skinheads listening to ska in the 60s that isn't a vanity quote for a magazine.Upsetterfc 15:33, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

• As anyone can see, my latest version of the sentence says "in many decades". It does not mention the 1960s, 1970s or any other decade. My version of the sentence is backed up. Your claim that skinheads didn't start listening to ska until the 2 Tone era(which didn't really start until around 1979) is not backed up. Therefore my version is more facually accurate and verifiable.Spylab 15:39, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Many decades is a vague statement not backed by fact. 2-Tone era began earlier than 79, actually 77 is more accurate (see:http://www.thespecials.com/history.php) when the first bands were starting to take shape. The skinhead subculture's revival and popularity was driven by 2-Tone ska revival. I don't question ska's popularity amongst 2nd generation skins in mid-70s, but your statement needs support. Will try to find info from Hebdige books.Upsetterfc 15:46, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Found supporting evidence for skinheads listening to reggae in "The Cambridge Cultural History of Britain", by Boris Ford, 1992, page 21. Meanwhile I am looking for copies of papers that mention this link that were published before the ska revival, when the "skinheads=ska" misconception became commonplace.

Upsetterfc 16:30, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

"accented guitar or piano rhythms on the offbeat" ? I think it should be rewritten as syncopation.

As for the contested third-wave section. Why is there so much emphasis on ska-punk? I believe it's an offshoot of third-wave for sure, but this article as well as the third-wave ska article it makes it seem like like most third-wave now is ska punk which is very incorrect. The Mighty Mighty Bosstones are also not ska-punk. They are most definitely ska-core, and they founded the genre.

There also needs to be a link or brief mention to skanking, as I believe it's an important part of ska's history and community. Ska is held to be upbeat music, and most ska concerts encourages skank/dance circles since ska is originally (and still somewhat) music for dancing. Cosecant 10:39, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

While you are correct that syncopation is a more accurate technical term, many genres use snycopation. Ska uses a very specific snycopation pattern which is that of accenting the offbeat. Also, though there are many thirdwave ska bands that arent ska punk bands, there still is a strong majority that is ska punk, especially the more popular ones. Glassbreaker5791 03:37, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

• • Judging by their new CD (Monkeys for Nothing and Chimps for Free,) Reel Big Fish has a stronger ska influence now than they did during the third wave. Ash Loomis (talk) 20:06, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

the article describes ska music as being characterized by a "walking bass" line. is this really accurate? i'm sure some ska songs have walking bass lines, but its not like jazz music where a walking bass line is a defining aspect of the music. should this be changed? Glassbreaker5791 (talk) 15:26, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

I feel lack more countries where ska has an important demonstration in the world like Brazil for example. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.47.150.35 (talk) 16:16, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Ska is played in many other countries. However, its difficult to find sources for these. As mentioned above in this talk page, Argentina apparently has a large ska scene, and places like Japan clearly do as well. I agree that these deserve a mention somewhere, however its extremely difficult to find hard evidence of this, so if you can find sources mentioning the popularity of ska in Brazil (or any of the other aforementioned countries), feel free to contribute them. Glassbreaker5791 (talk) 21:55, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

I can't seem to find what does the word mean. Not just here, on the whole internet. It seems that nobody knows. If you know, it should be added to the article, I guess. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.220.223.216 (talk) 13:52, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Ska doesn't neccessarily mean anything. It's just a word that describes the style of music. There are multiple guesses on how it came to be used to describe the music, many of which are discussed in the "history" section. Most of these tend to center on the word acting as onomatopoeia for the guitar sound, or the shortening of the phrase "love skavoovie". Glassbreaker5791 (talk) 17:11, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Should something be said about how many ska lyrics are about consuming alcoholic beverages, often in excess? These references are far more prevalent in ska than any other genre. It might be mostly a third wave thing, but I'm not sure. KenFehling (talk) 00:30, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

• I don't anyone has done a reliable study proving which music genres mention alcohol the most.Spylab (talk) 02:57, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

It has been a very long time since that suggestion was made and since the articles were tagged. Are we going to merge them or not? I'm for merging the artciles. Third wave ska is just a period in the history of ska, not some new sub-genre of ska. We already have an article on ska punk which is the style that was developed in the third wave. Just because ska punk was not all that was played during the third wave does not mean we need another article for third wave ska. We don't have two different articles for 2 Tone and second wave ska do we?--Ash Loomis (talk) 21:01, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

then we need a term for ska bands like the slackers and hepcat; they play "third wave ska". the confusion is coming from the term being used as both a time period and genre. referred to as a time period, there are bands playing ska punk and bands playing third wave ska. by this logic, ska punk shouldn't be considered as the same thing as "third wave ska", as ska punk is a fusion genre of "third wave ska" (e.g early toasters, slackers, fishbone) and modern punk; it is definitely not a fusion genre of jamaican ska and punk, or two-tone and punk.

the entire naming system here is flawed in it's essence, either a new term needs to be created for "third wave ska" bands (modern ska?) or ska punk shouldn't be included under the overly broad "third wave ska" umbrella. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.67.231.12 (talk) 16:03, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

While Hepcat and the Slackers are third-wave ska bands they still play traditional ska, not a new kind of ska. I'd also point out that the third wave of ska really started with ska punk. The bands who started the movement (Fishbone, Operation Ivy, the Mighty, Mighty Bosstones, No Doubt) were all ska punk. The only exception may be the Toasters. However, I consider them to be more of a "between-waves" band since they were already well established when ska became mainstream. And ska punk is a fusion of 2 Tone and punk; the original third-wave bands I mentioned all listened to 2 Tone and decided to incoperate it into their musical style. Ska punk was the dominant form of ska in the third wave. Sure, there were throw-back bands like the Slackers and the Toasters but they're in the minority and they all either played 2 Tone or traditional ska, not a new sub-genre. Therefore, I think a separate article on the third-wave isn't nessessary, all it describes is a time-period already covered here. Ash Loomis (talk) 16:22, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Okay.... Almost a year on there doesn't appear to be any consenus to merge either way.... Why not redirect Third wave ska to Ska-Punk? Then SP would explain how the terms are related, as - a unique style that developed in the Third wave period. Dan, the CowMan (talk) 06:18, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Looks like a good idea to me. ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:52, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree, I'll start on it. MakeBelieveMonster (talk) 02:10, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Hm, my merge got reverted. Here was my version . (Okay, the intro and record label section were kept.) User:Ash Loomis was concerned about accuracy and writing quality - what are some specific issues? Here are some big things now missing from the section:

• Paragraph on Mod (checkerboard stuff)
• The role of Ska Parade
• Details about mainstream hits

MakeBelieveMonster (talk) 15:31, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing that up, I restored the important details I removed in the revert. I mainly reverted your edit because the original was tidier and some of the information was wrong. For example, ska punk isn't a combination of 2 Tone, ska and punk because 2 Tone is already a combination of ska and punk. The main differance between 2 Tone and ska punk is that 2 Tone is generally more ska than punk while ska punk is generally more punk than ska. And then there's also the stylistic changes both ska and punk went through over the years between the end of 2 Tone and the beginning of ska punk. It's also inaccurate to state that jazz was a direct influence on third-wave ska. Traditional ska is jazz-influenced (particularly the Skatalites) but most third-wave ska was mainly influenced by 2 Tone and pop punk. Sorry for getting rid of valuable information in the revert as well, if there's anything else important I've left out feel free to edit it back in.Ash Loomis (talk) 17:52, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

That looks great, thanks Ash! MakeBelieveMonster (talk) 16:19, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

A new editor has been adding links to "Nat Geo Music" pages across a wide array of world music pages, which is most likely the reason that these same links have been deleted by several editors because of spamming. Another problem might have been that the links were being presented under a Reference heading even though they hadn't been used as references to support the text.

Each of the links has value, no doubt. Some will likely be able to be woven into the text in the appropriate articles such that the link will be handy as a reference. Another value is that there are music samples given which are not available here. Unfortunately for me personally, this Nat Geo Ska link's music samples aren't working. I got the same result from their Afro-Cuban and Tango pages. The flash-based music player that they require works okay on my computer with other sites; I wonder if the Nat Geo content or support system isn't ready yet, or if one must purchase something first.

I would support the link coming back into the article as a cited reference to support information presented in the text here. Per my own experience, I don't support the link being listed here for its streaming media. Binksternet (talk) 18:54, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

I remember reading back in 1979 that the etymology of the word "ska" came from the Jamaican slang for hit-and-run cricket - ska-boom. The idea being that the beat of the music hits and then runs, hits and then runs. Skaboom is, of course, thte title of the Toasters album - but the reference that I saw pre-dates the album by several years. Anyone shed any light on this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.99.138.61 (talk) 17:03, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I guess I'm having some problems with this... why do people insist on referring to the Wailers (the original name of the band) as Bob Marley AND the Wailers? Equally frustrating is the fact that the Wailers redirects to Bob Marley. I guess we've forgotten about Peter Tosh and Bunny Livingston. vudu 16:05, 7 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Because on many record jakets it is called just that

Originally, they recorded on Studio One as The Wailing Wailers. It's from one of these covers that the picture of Pete Tosh in wraparound shades is derived - the one that, allegedly, formed the model for Walt Jabsco.

Nuttyskin (talk) 16:23, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

The pronunciation of "ska" is given in the IPA as [skæː], which would have the same vowel as in "cat." I've always heard it pronounced [skaː], having the same vowel as in "cot." Perhaps this is just a regional or generational variation, and not worth nitpicking about, but otherwise the pronunciation probably ought to be changed. JoFrhwld 03:55, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

• I'm going to delete the pronunciation, because as you correctly pointed out, the word is pronounced differently by different people, depending on their accent. Spylab 11:51, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the accent does change but isnt the correct pronunciation still the latter one? It can be heard from very very early ska recordings and regardless of your accent, it still would be pronounced in that same way. the vowel never is pronounced as said above as "cat". since it can be heard in recordings of the people who helped to define the genre, isnt there actually a correct pronunciation regardless of accent? Technically the accent only changes the way it sounds, it doesnt change the way the word is supposed to be pronounced. Glassbreaker5791 22:48, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

There is a voiceover track of a rather self-consciously hip UK speaker using the pronunciation ska-as-in-cat (the UK "cat", which sounds quite like "ket" to the American ear); whereas, as I'm sure we're all very aware, the usual Jamaican pronunciation sounds very like "skya".

Nuttyskin (talk) 16:33, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

I am certainly no expert on Ska, but the whole history of this seems messed up to me. There is hardly anything written on the second wave. I would definitely class The Toasters as a second-wave band. There era, sound and attitude all point them out to be such.

There is no mention of Operation Ivy in the history, which seems like a glaring omission. AFAIK, it was them and the Bosstones that kicked off the third wave. I think not enough emphasis is placed on the fact that third wave is essentially a narrowing of the ska sound into a hybrid of ska and pop-punk (No Doubt etc.), and ska and hardcore (Operation Ivy, Catch 22 etc.). Forget all that rubbish about it being influenced by jazz.

Too much is written on the so-called "fourth wave" of Ska, which has not actually happened yet. I think people are confusing hardcore sounding third-wave bands, and punk bands with horns, to be something they're not. The bands listed there are definitely not emo/screamo influenced.

-- Movint 07/14/2005

Yeah, I agree, apart from the The Toasters are a Third Wave band IMO. Add to the article. falcolombardi87 19:00, July 14, 2005 (UTC)

Op Ivy ought to be included, certainly, but classifying third wave as only ska-core or ska and pop-punk hybrids is far too limiting. re: jazz, bands like Easy Big Fella and the Scofflaws were far closer to jazz-influenced music than to hardcore or pop-punk. I might even say there was a trend toward a small rockabilly influence with a band like Lucky 7. (SaraFist, 08 March 06)

Wait, why are The Toasters not credited with esentially creating the ska phenomenon in the US with the 3rd wave? Keep in mind this band was making records while Dickey Barret, Gwen Stephani, Aaron Barret, Brad Nowell and Jason Navarro were still smoking in the bathrooms at school!! C'mon, NYC ska founded in 1981, so this band is starting in America when no other prominent ska bands were coming out of the states, and when the Specials, The Beat, Madness, etc are still around. DJ Citizen D

I added the Uptones in the Third Wave section. They, like the Toasters formed in '81, in Northern Cal. and were influential to ska/punk bands, such as Operation Ivy, Rancid and Sublime. --Utilizer (talk) 07:18, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm working on restructuring the "third wave" section as stated above, but it'd be really helpful if anyone can help bring an international view to both the second and third wave sections, which pretty much address only England the US, respectively. Starting in the mid-80s, ska starting spreading EVERYWHERE and some countries spawned some strong, long-lasting scenes. Europe, Australia, the Netherlands, Canada, Mexico, South America...I'm not overly familiar with ALL the scenes, but I'd be willing to do research if no one else wants to do it. I feel it's crucial to mention.
In fact, I think I'd even recommend that the WikiBanner that says "this article may not represent a worldwide view of the subject" be added.Skibz777 (talk) 09:58, 21 March 2010 (UTC) EDIT: I just now found out, a day after I posted this, that the Australian ska scene has its own page. How is this not mentioned here, of all places?

Another thing I'd like to bring up that ties into the above is how to structure the sections "2 Tone" and "Third wave" into a wholly international view. 2-Tone (the English scene named after the English record label) lasted in the early 1980s, but the ska scene outside of England, in Europe and Australia, took root at the same time though blossomed into strong scenes later in the mid-80s to early-90s. Does this count as "2 Tone", or would it fall under "third wave", which is entirely an American colloquialism and really has no relevancy to countries outside the US, as their scenes never experienced the mainstream "wave" that bands in the US did? Like I said, this whole article seems to be a VERY limited view of ska as a whole...I feel that way and I'm from Orange County, of all places. I'd love to hear feedback from any overseas ska fans.Skibz777 (talk) 10:58, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

How significant is Latin Ska in it's scope and influence? Should there be a section on this?

Bands:
Los Fabuloso Cadillacs - Argentina
Desorden Publico - Venezuela
Ska Cubano - Cuba
Panteon Rococo - Mexico
King Chango - US?
Ska P - Spain
etc. etc.—

That's a good question. If you've got proper references on the influences of Latin ska, I invite you to add these facts. If you're simply asking to list these bands, I don't see the point. Little tinyfish 00:07, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Putting things in boxes is something that musicians tend to do much less than other people. I started one of the bands mentioned here (Ska Cubano); if you ask any of the members of my band what they play , they say "ska", not "Latin ska" or anything else. We consciously go back to the "first wave" of ska for the rhythm and style of playing and then integrate Cuban and other Caribbean melodies (as, to a lesser extent, did the Skatalites). Ska Cubano also plays a lot of cumbia, which is so similar to ska that you can't "fuse" the rhythms because they are already virtually the same. The majority of our band members are Cubans but "Cuban ska" didn't exist until I invented "ska cubano" (the genre) and "Ska Cubano" (the band) although there are now a few young Cubans playing ska on the island. To my knowledge, there are pretty good local ska bands in at least 20 of the 30 countries we have played in. SC really doesn't care what box you put us in as long as you enjoy the music. I hope this helps the discussion along. Peter A. Scott 92.251.109.19 (talk) 17:52, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Well, maybe not "garbage", per se, but it's very badly written. It doesn't as much detail any coherent history, but rather just clumps everything together sloppily, with tons of unnecessary detail.

For instance, the first paragraph could have elaborated (in very short space) on the effect and musical approach of these early bands instead of lumping them together as if they all played the same music ("The Toasters and Mighty Mighty Bosstones on the East Coast...Toasters = one of the first, played 2-Tone style, formed a label, made it indie...MMB = formed much later, played "ska-core", one of the first mainstream ska acts, etc.. Two totally different careers.). "Many third wave bands played...", "Some third wave bands played...", "Several third wave bands..." is sloppy. Also, "Many third wave ska bands played ska punk" is ridiculous and unfounded...ska punk exploded after 1997, but beforehand it was barely the predominant sound. This could have fit later in the article, but when placed in the paragraph detailing it's early 1980s origins, it's wildly inaccurate.

There should be further elaboration on the compositional aspect of third wave. There's a brief description of ska punk, but there should be more...or at least a mention of the musical diversity third wave adopted: ska-soul (Pietasters, Deal's Gone Bad), ska-funk (Fishbone), ska-core (Leftover Crack), acoustic (Chris Murray), weird amalgamations (Johnny Socko, Cherry Poppin' Daddies, Rx Bandits), ska's influence on OTHER popular bands (Rancid, Oingo Boingo, Smash Mouth...all of whom had ska hits before the genre's mainstream boom)...I'm not saying all of these bands should be mentioned, but there was a lot more to third wave than just ska punk.

A whole paragraph on The Uptones (or any other singular band in a sub-section of a larger article meant to simply detail the genre itself) is unnecessary. Again, just a brief mention of the effects and musical approaches of these early bands could have been written out. It is irrelevant when, where and what label their first record came out on.

The entire Orange County paragraph is not needed, esp. at the exclusion of strong ska scenes in other parts of the country (NYC, Salt Lake City, Midwest), and OTHER countries for that matter (Germany, Japan, Canada, Spain). A single sentence mentioning the popularity of the OC ska scene and the name-dropping of just a few big bands would do just fine.

The dates get mixed up in later paragraphs: the part about OC's ska's mainstream success in the late 1990s is immediately followed by a paragraph about ska's initial mainstream success in the early 1990s. "The Hippos and Save Ferris enjoyed commercial success" (1997)...."In the early 1990s"..."In 1993", which is followed up with "Around this time, many ska-influenced songs became hits on mainstream radio", which then lists songs from 1997.

Who founded what record label and what bands were on them is irrelevant. A single sentence simply saying something like, "...led to the formation of several all-ska independent record labels such as..." or something like that. Additionally, the section ends simply with "In 2003, Hingley launched a new ska record label, Megalith Records". There is no proper beginning, middle or end, and it basically says nothing about the music or it's history, but rather a poorly organized list of what became popular when.

I'd suggest a full rewrite, but that's just me. The rest of the article looks in just as bad condition, but this section was the worst.Skibz777 (talk) 10:30, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

It's a problem of too many submissions without an editing overview, tying them together somehow. I think the last three paragraphs definitely feel "tacked on" and need a lot more work to make sense and to add some timeline flow. There's not enough information about Christian ska to merit this mention here. It's thrown in for good measure. The rest is record-label details without any meaning behind them.

The rest of the section is piece-meal but it does try to timeline a history of 80s-ska and how it developed into the 90s sound and beyond. If there's too much record-label info to your liking, by all means, clean it up or move it out. But if several paragraphs mention labels then the entire section should be consistent with that approach. Otherwise, it reads like promotional material for some bands but not others. This especially applies to bands that are still together and recording. Do we leave that information in to show that ska is still being produced by traditional third-wave bands? That's interesting information to me.

The breaking down of ska into all these sub-genres is tiresome eventually and blurs before my eyes. And most of that kind of definition of music becomes one person's opinion over another. Maybe someone else could join in here and suggest a clean-up plan of this section. It does need polishing. --Utilizer (talk) 06:39, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

"The breaking down of ska into all these sub-genres is tiresome eventually and blurs before my eyes. And most of that kind of definition of music becomes one person's opinion over another.". It shouldn't blur, though...all three eras are radically different and should definitely be split up, but third wave is the toughest to summarize. There is definite ska-punk bias in the current write-up...however, most of it is a bias that can easily be removed with proper references. I've studied third wave for years and know the history pretty well. I can easily nab enough references to detail the evolution of the genre's popularity and its change in sound. This is what I would suggest: I have enough free time to reshape the section on my own or with help (or any other sections), so this is how I feel it should play out, outline-wise:

Paragraph 1: In the early 1980s... (ska bands started forming in the US). *Detail the sound(s)/composition of early third wave*. *Briefly detail the Toasters' and the Uptones' (the earliest bands) impact on the scene: labels, etc.*. *A few sentences detailing the beginning of ska punk, Bosstones and Op Ivy's impact, though making a distinction between ska punk/third wave*.

Paragraph 2: *The rise of the third wave: detail ska's first commercial success, both with ska bands and other bands affected (Rancid's "Time Bomb" was (I think) the first American ska hit single of the 1990s), radio shows, minor media attention, record labels etc.* *If possible, mention the individual regional scenes: OC, NY, Midwest, SLC, international, etc.*

Paragraph 3: *Ska's mainstream success, detailing the major bands, chart positions and media attention*. *Detail the different subgenres, mentioning the predominant success of ska-punk, though also the success of Hepcat n' such. Touch upon Christian ska.* *Detail the decline of the ska revival, closing of indie labels, touching upon the bands that still remain: the continuing success of No Doubt/bands such as The Aquabats losing their ska sound, etc.*

Paragraph 4: *The current state of third wave: new labels, new bands, etc.*

And that can pretty much be it, only four paragraphs, and pretty much keeping all of the current information sans the extraneous information. Skibz777 (talk) 09:39, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

OK--looks good to me. Go for it. --Utilizer (talk) 17:10, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Rock n' roll. I'm finally going to start on this. At least a bare-bones attempt. To phrase it in an unnecessary metaphor, I'm going to peel the flesh off the body, down to the bone (references, core facts, basic structure) and then build new flesh on top of said bone until it's closer to what I proposed above. For now I'm just going to use easy references (Allmusic, etc.) to construct said solid skeleton until I can better fill it out with more precise details later.Skibz777 (talk) 09:32, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

The midi skank rhythm examples seem to be almost meaningless without a rhythm for reference. Adding a 4/4 metronome click to the midi files would probably help a lot. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pololei (talk • contribs) 23:38, 22 December 2010 (UTC) I'll second that. There is no audible difference between on-the-beat and on-the-off-beats when you are just playing one or the other. I'd recommend adding a simple drum line to demonstrate the snare and bass drum discussed in the article. 96.37.205.15 (talk) 01:32, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Someone keeps expanding mention of The Uptones in the third wave section, and each time it feels like an advertisement. The band is already mentioned in the same sentence as The Toasters for being, quote, "credited for laying the groundwork for American ska and establishing scenes in their respective regions". I can also add "influencing many future ska bands". There's no need to branch it off into a separate paragraph repeating the *exact* same things which were said immediately beforehand ("jumpstarted the Bay Area ska scene" = "establishing scenes in their respective regions", etc.). I'm assuming whoever is writing such is either in the band or a friend of theirs, so please note their importance is already clearly stated, there's no need for further elaboration with how they "sold out shows" because that's what their main entry is for.Skibz777 (talk) 23:17, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Just to support the point. It needs to be kept in balance in the context of the article.--SabreBD (talk) 23:37, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

How much does it really need to be supported? It's reiterating exactly the same things that have been previously mentioned:

The Uptones from Berkeley, California ... formed in 1981 - were among the first active ska bands in North America, both often credited for laying the groundwork for American ska and establishing scenes in their respective regions.

The Uptones jumpstarted the Bay Area ska scene...in 1981 when the band, consisting of Berkeley High School students, began to play sold-out shows throughout the area for seven years. Their 1984 self-titled record was released on Howie Klein's 415 label. The Uptones' punk-influenced ska has been cited as inspiring California bands Operation Ivy, Rancid and Sublime.

It's redundant. Why mention the album? As it doesn't have a separate article, what impact did it have? A handful of other American ska albums had already been released by that time. All other information is extraneous. Directly influencing a popular band is obviously important (hence "laying the groundwork"), but since all three aforementioned groups have lengthy pages which detail their influences and fail to mention The Uptones, they obviously didn't serve as a primary influence.

I don't have any anti-Uptones bias, it's just awkward to have one whole paragraph talking about just one band when that hasn't occurred anywhere else in the third wave section at any previous point in time, especially when bands like The Toasters or the Bosstones or The Specials, who had a much bigger impact on the genre as a whole, only have a sentence or two. Reading The Uptones' article, the whole thing is just an excess of praise and name-dropping...I won't deny their influence, this article's obligated to mention them, but it's apparent whomever's writing it is merely promoting the band. Skibz777 (talk) 02:18, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Hi, I'm a newbie to this process but i am certain the entry I am trying to make is valid and important to this article. I saw The Uptones in this article but that has since been deleted. So I tried to add them, and my entry was deleted. The Uptones pre-date nearly all of the bands listed as third wave ska. They were extremely popular on the west coast throughout the 80's. They played from 1981 to 1989, and were a top bay area act by 1983. They sold out every major nightclub in the San Francisco bay area repeatedly. They also played support for UB40, Madness, the English Beat, The Go-Go's, General Public, Steel Pulse, and Billy Idol. Members of Operation Ivy have cited The Uptones as a major influence. Rancid covered the Uptones' "Get Out Of My Way" on their first album.

The problem with fitting The Uptones into this article has to do with the basic way the article is structured: original ska, two-tone ska, and third wave ska. This breakdown as a timeline is somewhat flawed. "Two-tone" does not just describe an era and a record label, it is also used to describe a type of ska music, regardless of when it was/is made. The Uptones play in the two-tone style, and they were influenced greatly by The Specials, Madness, the Selecter, and the English Beat. The most key two-tone band, The Specials, had stopped playing by 1981. Third wave ska had not started yet, and the phrase third wave had not yet been coined. The Uptones in Northern California, and The Untouchables in Southern California, played ska as headliners to thousands of dancing fans starting in the very early 1980's. So no discussion of ska in America and the transition from two-tone era to so-called third wave ska is complete without mentioning these two notable bands.

Equally glaring, as someone else mentioned here, is the omission of Operation Ivy. Op Ivy was, more than any other band, the flashpoint that informed all the punk ska that followed.

Ska trek 1969 06:11, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

• I don't know anything about the Uptones, and never heard of them before they were mentioned on Wikipedia, but I do know that the Untouchables played soul and mod revival, not ska. Also, I'm pretty sure the term third wave ska was first used to describe British bands that came after 2-Tone in the early 1980s, such as the Loafers, Riffs, Skadows and Mr. Review Spylab 07:23, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

The Untouchables also played ska, but indeed, they were mod r&b band primarily. The mod and ska audiences in California overlapped quite a bit then. Interesting about the "third wave ska" term being used in England after two-tone. I've heard of the Loafers, but I've never heard of Riffs, Skadows or Mr. Review. But then, I don't live in England. Ska trek 1969 03:45, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I added The Uptones to the article again, in the place where they fit best in the article as written. I feel it's preposterous to cite Bim Skala Bim and The Toasters there without adding The Uptones. As for the Untouchables, I feel strongly that they have a hand in this story too. They weren't a ska band really, but rather a mod r&b band that played a lot of great ska when hardly anyone else was doing it, and they certainly influenced No Doubt and other bands that followed. So I feel The Untouchables should be in this article as well but I'm not sure where. As for the Uptones, here are two links that vet the statements I added to the article today. http://www.mystrands.com/artist/12697/biography and http://tinpan.fortunecity.com/penny/978/facts.htm

• I just touched up the writing in the section and added a mention of the Untouchables, with the disclaimer that they were mostly a mod/soul band. Those links should be added into the article as references (and to the Uptones article). Spylab 17:29, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

I added more information in the Third Wave section, including Uptones and other West Coast bands, as well as East Coast bands of 1981. Both Toasters and Uptones formed in '81 and were influential on both coasts. I've referenced my additions. The Toasters had a mention but the Uptones were sadly missing from the page. Both bands deserve mention for their accomplishments and influence on future power pop/punk/ska bands. --Utilizer (talk) 07:15, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

• As I understand it, The Terrorists from NYC were formed in the late 70s and they played "punky reggae" and ska. I don't think they were included(?) It also bears repeating that there were a handful of bands on the west coast of the USA in 1980 who played ska, to wit: The X-Streams (Arizona), 004 (Utah), The Boxboys (Los Angeles) and Ska Cha Cha (Los Angeles). These groups pre-date the other American groups mentioned in the article and should be mentioned as much as anyone else. Now I am confused as to the whole "second wave" category, but if there is one, they belong in it... P1340 (talk) 05:11, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Just wondering why it's not part of the wikiproject to find creative commons examples of specific genres to give listeners a taste? is this due to criticisms of specifics vs form? curiouser and curiouser....184.99.123.6 (talk) 22:30, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

I was just reading through looking for notes on different instruments used through history, and I noticed something pretty glaring:

"As music changed in the United States, so did ska. In 1965 and 1966, when American soul music became slower and smoother, ska changed its sound accordingly and evolved into rocksteady.[17][20] However, rocksteady's heyday was brief, peaking in 1967. By 1968, ska evolved again into reggae."

Enough people present at the time would disagree that ska birthed rocksteady because of much if anything related to the United States (especially soul). Most historical recounts I know of cite the hottest period on record in 1966 as encouraging labels to promote slower beats for the dancehalls, but reasons do seem to be contested at least. This is what I see as one of the most critical historical aspects of ska and Jamaican music at the time--the close connection to dancehalls. If I see it left unchallenged for much longer I'll probably add in a quick mention of the contested nature and an additional alternate explanation with citations. Senortres (talk) 02:48, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

I was just reading through this page and came across this sentence:

"Prince Buster has explicitly cited American rhythm & blues as the origin of ska, specifically Willis Jackson's song "Later for the Gator" which was Coxsone Dodd's number one selection and Duke Reid's number-one spin "Hey Hey Mr. Berry", to this day by an unidentified artist and with this given title (In the way Northern Soul DJs used to cover up the identity of records to prevent other DJs from finding copies), the joke amongst surviving Jamaican Soundmen who were there at the time being that "This is the one Duke took to the grave with him""

Which is a horrible run-on sentence. I would clean it up, but I'm not sure what the sentence means. Can anyone help? Ballabosh (talk) 20:50, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

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The article currently reads that ska "is characterized by a walking bass line, accented guitar, piano, and/or saxophone rhythms on the offbeat." While I agree with this, is accurate that ska is characterized by the use of certain instruments? If you can play the offbeat on anything from a piano to a saxophone, than surely the offbeat could also be played on other instruments. I don't play an instrument myself, so maybe I'm wrong and the offbeat can only be played on these instruments. But if I'm right, I think we should edit that statement so that it reads ska "is characterized by a walking bass line and rhythms on the offbeat." Ash Loomis (talk) 04:34, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

What is usually said of ska, musically, is that it emphasises the offbeat, with a generally light and danceable tone; while its brass is typically nagging and melancholy. Other than that, there's nothing much to be said that couldn't be said just as well of Black music in general, such as Jazz, Blues, Merengue, etc.

Nuttyskin (talk) 16:39, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

During this and subsequent edits in 2009, "off-beat" was changed into "up-beat" (without giving a reason). Reading the sections on Upbeat off-beat, I'm pretty sure the original wording was correct. Hence, I'm changing that back to "off-beat". --El Grafo (talk) 13:10, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

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In the Ska template, I noticed that R&B was listed as a subgenre. (I've seen similar confusing issues with seeing Disco under Latin music.) Does anyone think this template needs scrutiny? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:C7:C201:C640:9816:B723:7748:1DB2 (talk) 15:01, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

I just noticed, upon visiting the Jazz page, how erratic standardization for EVERYTHING is. Someone ought to add that little table to the right of this page. Lockeownzj00 01:53, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

As someone who's heard a lot of Ska, I want to know if Ska qualifies as a genre of rock. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:c7:c201:c640:19a4:1db2:ab67:9165 (talk • contribs) 19:26, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

No. --Michig (talk) 14:19, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

Why not? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:C7:C201:C640:D5B6:50B1:EBB3:570F (talk) 16:35, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

A while ago, the Ska template was put in the page for Rock music, but later taken out on the grounds that ska isn't rock music. Then why is Christian ska listed as rock music? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.36.25.163 (talk) 16:35, 29 August 2021 (UTC)