Talk:Spacetime/Archive 11

I'm moving this text from the article to the talk page, as it seems to be more related to Maxwell's equations than the article topic, spacetime. I'm leaving a paragraph that focuses on the relation between Maxwell's equations and spacetime, as that is on-topic. I'm not quite sure how to use the content that is being moved while staying on-topic. 47.32.217.164 (talk) 06:41, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

The ancient idea of the cosmos gradually was described mathematically with differential equations^{[further explanation needed]}, differential geometry^{[further explanation needed]}, and abstract algebra^{[further explanation needed]}. These mathematical articulations blossomed in the nineteenth century as electrical technology stimulated men like Michael Faraday and James Clerk Maxwell to describe the reciprocal relations of electric and magnetic fields. Daniel Siegel phrased Maxwell's role in relativity as follows:

[...] the idea of the propagation of forces at the velocity of light through the electromagnetic field as described by Maxwell's equations—rather than instantaneously at a distance—formed the necessary basis for relativity theory.^[1]: 189

Maxwell used vortex models in his papers on On Physical Lines of Force, but ultimately gave up on any substance but the electromagnetic field. Pierre Duhem wrote:

[Maxwell] was not able to create the theory that he envisaged except by giving up the use of any model, and by extending by means of analogy the abstract system of electrodynamics to displacement currents.^[2]

In Siegel's estimation, "this very abstract view of the electromagnetic fields, involving no visualizable picture of what is going on out there in the field, is Maxwell's legacy."^[1]: 191

Under the provisions of Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle, I have performed a BOLD revert of Spacetime version of 00:38, 29 May 2017 to a version which is close to 22:30, 13 May 2017 version of 22:30, 13 May 2017 except for incorporating consensus changes agreed upon between myself and several other editors, along with a few corrections and enhancements.

• @Stigmatella aurantiaca: I've reverted that change on a purely procedural basis, as it clearly was broken. You ended up with a second version of the article in the middle of the current version. Feel free to try again with the edit you actually intended. Murph9000 (talk) 17:47, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Whoops! Thanks! Stigmatella aurantiaca (talk) 17:58, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

This is ludicrous. This is just an attempt to avoid discussion of the problems I pointed out in my original edits, by proclaiming that my edits weren't bold, whereas the new ones are. Somehow my edits don't warrant discussion, but the new edits do? 47.32.217.164 (talk) 22:14, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

It’s worth noting that user:Stigmatella aurantiaca has produced a great number of the graphics on this article. There are more than 30 by my count. Of the first ten illustrations and animations I examined, eight had been produced by Stigmatella aurantiaca. Having personally produced animations and graphics for many articles on Wikipedia, I know first hand…

1. How time consuming they are to make, and,
2. How much they facilitate understanding of complex subject matter.

After all, a picture is worth a thousand words. In the case of illustrating an abstruse concept like spacetime, a graph is worth more than a thousand words.

For this reason, I intend to give Stigmatella aurantiaca ample discretion on this article for a while. He has done a huge amount of heavy lifting—greatly benefiting the project—and to invest so much time, the journey must be interesting and rewarding.

Having said that, I firmly believe this article requires that Stigmatella aurantiaca receive good-faith, constructive suggestions and feedback from the community as he labors on it. I make a living doing technical writing and always run drafts by others for feedback. In the case of this article, I also have the advantage of not understanding the subject matter beyond the lede and can therefore serve as the “fool” in “foolproof” in hopes of making the article as easy as practicable to understand.

There's a lot of work still to do; it won’t be truly ready for prime time for a while yet.

Greg L (talk) 01:30, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

Despite my best efforts to write an accessible, mostly non-mathematical Introduction for this article, it still represents 50,000 characters of fairly dense reading. Off-the-record, I have gotten some pretty sharp remarks about this.

I want to make it easier for the typical user to wade through this introductory material.

I am trying an experiment in my (I removed the direct link to my Sandbox version of the Spacetime article since the experiment is now implemented in main article space) of adding summaries for each subsection of the Introduction section.

You will see internal links that look like this in the sandbox Introduction:

Definitions [edit]

Click for a brief section summary

I would much appreciate comments on whether the experiment is successful, how I could improve it, or alternative means of achieving my purpose.

Thanks, Stigmatella aurantiaca (talk) 10:58, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

I think the Introduction section summaries-portion and the way you implement it is a wonderful improvement to the article.

The framework of what you've added is far more flexible than what you currently have (mere bullet points). For instance, the summaries could one day include just a one- or two-sentence, plain-prose super-summary inserted between each caption heading and its associated set of bullet points. Such super-summaries (a sentence or two) would be written at the “Ernie & Bert” level.

Said another way, the super-summaries would be the “elevator ride” description of what the concept is about. Suppose a CEO got on an elevator with you and said “I noticed you added a section regarding light cones. What are ‘light cones’?” With four floors remaining, you response starts with “Well, they’re just…”

With thoughtfully written one- or two-sentence super-summaries added to each heading, a reader in a hurry for quick learning could just peruse just through the entire Introduction section summaries.

Bring it in! What’s not to like?

Greg L (talk) 17:11, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

(*sound of crickets chirping*) It looks like it's just you and me to figure any of this out. I see you went ahead after a pregnant pause there. Good. Greg L (talk) 23:56, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

@Purgy Purgatorio: @Greg L:

Hi, Purgy!

You've made some good suggestions in the past, but English does not appear to be your native language. So I've taken your suggested changes here where you and User:Greg L can work on them together. Hope you don't mind too much?
Stigmatella aurantiaca (talk) 16:41, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

I agree with your sentiment, Stigmatella aurantiaca, and your proposed solution. The concept of spacetime is double-tough to clearly communicate to the readership visiting a general-interest encyclopedia… even if English is one's native language. The current lede has been thoughtfully honed by multiple editors over a lengthy period of time until it is pithy, precise, and razor sharp. It is better to try out improvements here rather than edit/revert cycles in articlespace.Greg L (talk) 00:02, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

I do agree with you that I have to pity that my mastery of the English language is not on par with native capabilities, and that there may have been "multiple editors over a lengthy period of time", but I strongly disagree that the status quo is "pithy, precise, and razor sharp". Please, may I invite to comment on my thoughts below? Purgy (talk) 08:43, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

Nobody is using this draft area, so I just blanked to save real estate. Stigmatella aurantiaca (talk) 16:34, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

Spacetime is a portal to mathematical physics. A Treatise on Electricity and Magnetism (1873) advanced a theory of fields that depend on x,y,z,t, so spacetime calculations began with electromagnetic measurement. Describing transformations requires linear algebra, a subject that has developed alongside relativity. The fact that light speed is finite crushed the naïve vector theory of velocity. Much of spacetime theory involves the shift to rapidity instead of velocity. Relativity of simultaneity is formalized by hyperbolic orthogonality to the worldline of a given rapidity. These ideas can be approached by the unit hyperbola, and pictured with split-complex numbers. The mathematical physics of spacetime cosmology used biquaternion arithmetic, as detailed by Ludwik Silberstein in 1914, but was also explained by Arthur Conway, and much earlier by Alexander Macfarlane. The revamping of this article has removed many useful historic links, and does damage by replacing spacetime diagram with diagram. Some observers notice the degradation. — Rgdboer (talk) 22:15, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

As a matter of fact, there is some interesting material to be found when one goes back through the archives of this article. For instance, Privileged character of 3+1 spacetime. I am well aware of what has been lost, and have been planning to revive some of the "Best of the Past" in the later sections. The early sections, however, must present the material that is most useful to the majority of users of this article. Fulfilling their needs has been my primary concern. Stigmatella aurantiaca (talk) 22:49, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for a response. Spacetime is a modern concept that has simple essentials, such as the unit "meter second". The Lorentz transformations leave this measure invariant. The interval is a signed area in these units. I agree that the Encyclopedia must serve its readers. Perpetuation of obfuscation is not desirable, but justified by sources say. One of the best references for elementary considerations was written by Wilson & Lewis (1912) and published in the Proceeding of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences 48: (see affine geometry). Wilson & Lewis not only used the synthetic geometry method, but also noted squeeze mapping applied by Lorentz. Simple ideas will serve the likely reader of this article. — Rgdboer (talk) 23:13, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

I do not believe that the essentials are that unified throughout the pertinent community, like "meter second". Recently, I encountered increasingly the c=1 units. There is not even agreement on (1,3) or (3,1), and I know of biquaternions and split complexes only from their pure math side. BTW, there is a near good article on representation of the Lorentz group. I think that there is no single view on theories of relativity, that allows to call other views an obfuscation. All this could fill a large section on respective history, possibly worth a stand alone article. One man's simplicity is another woman's detour. Purgy (talk) 08:04, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

There is total agreement about metric signature (1,3) or (3,1). It simply doesn't matter. It is like clothing. It should suit the occasion. Sometimes the (1,3) convention is the more convenient one, at other times the (3,1) is. No need to bring this up here (except that it doesn't matter which one is used). YohanN7 (talk) 13:45, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

In no way I wanted to express that the selection of one of equivalent realisations in favour of others would matter, but I did want to object to the opinion that every (correct) point of view regarding spacetime is uniquely determined and agreed upon as the only one to pursue. I think, similarly holds for e.g. involving certain units and even associated "dimensions". Mentioning the signature in this article at all appears questionable to me. Purgy (talk) 14:10, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

But, of course, (1,3) is the one true metric signature (with apologies to Stephen Weinberg). But, in all seriousness, these two signatures give rise to nonisomorphic Clifford algebras. However, I think the relevance of such considerations is peripheral to the discussion of this article. I am opposed to inclusion of discussion of spacetime algebra here, however much an ad hoc historical argument can be made, since it is fringe. Sławomir Biały (talk) 14:38, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

Will remove. Stigmatella aurantiaca (talk) 14:42, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

I note that Clifford algebra and Geometric algebra have largely the same list of authors as Spacetime algebra. Does your negative assessment apply to these two articles as well? Stigmatella aurantiaca (talk) 18:40, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

The non-isomorphic Clifford algebras have no implications in physics. (And you can be sure that this has been investigated.) Believing one or the other is "correct" is pure crack-pottery. YohanN7 (talk) 13:55, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

The groups SO(3, 1) and SO(1, 3) are isomorphic. Both (or either if you prefer) are implied by special relativity. Further claims must be backed up with physics superceding SR. Unheard of so far. YohanN7 (talk) 14:16, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, were these directed at me? I was joking when I said that (1,3) is the "one true signature", but it is my own preference. In any case, I think any actual distinction between the two rather arbitrary signatures are so rarefied to be inconsequential to this article. But I also think it is wrong to declare absolutely that there is no difference between the two signatures. One obviously needs to use a different set of gamma matrices, for example. I'm guessing this is important in odd dimensional space-time, because the analog of "${\displaystyle \gamma _{5}^{2}}$" then depends on the choice of signature. Sławomir Biały (talk) 14:53, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

(EC)I should have known. I feel silly. But the need for internal consistency of a calculation (either or of the signatures, not a mix) should be obvious. YohanN7 (talk) 14:55, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

This is way beyond me but perhaps there is a chance it hints to some small physical effect, you might haven't seen yet. Purgy (talk) 07:10, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

Hello everyone. While undoubtedly User:Stigmatella aurantiaca must be commended (so too should User:YohanN7) on their efforts to improve this page, I find it is much more disorganised and hard to follow compared to versions prior. Nonetheless I have one specific issue, since it is my transformation you are seeking to explain (yes, mine. it should be clear as to who the author [me] is)

1. It is clearly stated in General covariance#Remarks that the no prior geometry requirement took nearly a half-century to determine. That is, Albert's (yes, I can call him that. I'm sure my "fans" [weirdos] have seen my high school yearbook quote) theory of relativity does not incorporate a rigorous a priori geometry
2. Since General relativity has a direct dependence on the Lorentz transformation, I do not find it realistic or acceptable that Lorentz' name keeps bieng mentioned.

• I have spoken to User:Rgdboer about this on previous occasions, as at the time I berated him (my fault, he meant well) for something pertaining to it (I am sure he can recall the instance better than I).

I have nothing against Lorentz, but I do think that certain people whose work is in this area are so priced-in (if you will) regarding the intracacies of this transformation, that they are seeking to make it something more than it is.

The Lorentz it is not suitable, nor rigorous, enough to describe my transformation which has been demonstrated (and likely re-implemented by skeptics in the field who questioned my contribution years ago) in-vivo.

I don't get why you guys are so hung up on that transformation anyways. It is wrong; I mean, it was probably useful at the time, but it was never going to be sufficient, nor rich enough (in a Set theoretic context) to describe reality since much of the mathematics were solidifed by David Hilbert and company in the next ten years.

All I want to say is: chill. I respect your guys' hustle and everything, but continuing about the path that involves reviving or attempting to shoehorn Lorentz' work into Roweis and I's contribution is just not cool.

Dr Roweis is dead, as I'm sure you all know. I would hope you guys give him the respect he deserves, which I feel (in light of my "discovery" and its dependence on Dr Roweis' [cavalier] work) would be shown by usage of the term "transformation" as opposed to Lorentz transformation.

Cheers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.14.253.156 (talk) 23:18, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

There's no reason to be coy about who you (I.P. 123.14.253) are. I note this comment of yours: Nonetheless I have one specific issue, since it is my transformation you are seeking to explain (yes, mine. it should be clear as to who the author [me] is). If (big if) you are a notable expert, please say so and identify yourself. Whereas a theorist or physicist who has been published in peer-reviewed journals would likely view contributing to Wikipedia articlespace, (where some 9th grader can delete all your work) as being an endeavor that is brain damaged beyond all comprehension, your comments here on this talk page would be very interesting to the writers laboring mightily on this article and would no-doubt carry great weight.

As for Dr. Roweis, I’m not sure why this has come up. I don’t see “Roweis” anywhere in articlespace (including the citations) or here on this page. If this were a biography on a living person or even a plain ol’ biography, Dr. Roweis would get all the respect he deserves. As for any ideas or theories of his, they are fair game; the best response to a bad theory is a better one. And as mere Wikipedians, it is not our business to pontificate, editorialize, or decide how meritorious (or not) his theories are; we follow what the reliable sources say. Full stop.

As for your observation (I find it is much more disorganised and hard to follow compared to versions prior), yeah, it is becoming increasingly apparent that those who have been doing the heavy lifting would be well advised to fly up to the 5000-foot level and take a gander and the landscape. Your input in this regard would be exceedingly valuable… if you’re willing. Greg L (talk) 04:17, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

As I've stated before, the article is overly focused on relativistic spacetime, and not spacetime in general. Splitting the content about relativistic spacetime into a separate article would help immensely. I reworked the article into a format that allowed for that, but I was shouted down. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.32.217.164 (talk) 08:11, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

I repeat: What would be an appropriate title for a new article that would cover alternative, non-relativity-related spacetimes? You are obviously passionate about this point, and a new article would be the place to develop your vision as you see fit. Stigmatella aurantiaca (talk) 08:28, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

I repeat as well: this article's title is "spacetime", and it makes sense to me that that should be the focus. Relativistic spacetime seems like an obvious place for discussion of relativistic spacetime. Please stop harassing me about a point that I have clearly already made. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.32.217.164 (talk) 08:34, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

I have started Non-relativistic spacetime for you, and added a bit of initial content. When you have developed the article enough, I will add "See also" references to the article. As you can see, there is an enormous amount of work that you have ahead of you to fill out the stub. Maybe one of the participants on this talk page can help you out. It's a fascinating subject. Cheers! Stigmatella aurantiaca (talk) 09:14, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

More railroading, huh? Your way or the highway? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.32.217.164 (talk) 09:27, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

Non-relativistic spacetime is your article. As you can see from the stub content that I have added, it is huge field of study. It is up to you to flesh it out. I am not kidding when I state that I will provide references to your article when it has reached a sufficient level of development. Just don't disrupt Spacetime again, which despite my "heavy lifting" in the early stages, is really turning into a group effort by a team whose vision differs from yours. Stigmatella aurantiaca (talk) 09:39, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

I didn't ask for an article, or your help. I think you will find that others don't like having words put in their mouth, either. But, by all means, shout me down again. 47.32.217.164 (talk) 09:53, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

So it appears that I.P. 47.32.217.164 and I.P. 123.14.253 are on in the same. Yes? If so, that explains a lot and is bullshit, because I.P. coyly holds himself out as an “expert” who has a tangential theory (Non-relativistic spacetime) he wants to shoehorn into this article.

Here are the facts as I see them:

1. I.P. has made it clear is not willing or is not capable of participating in a proper collaborative way. All discussion is a ‘my way or the highway’ message from him.
2. I.P. alludes to being an expert in the field.
3. Point No. 2 above doesn’t mattter; Wikipedia has been down that road before and has a crystal clear policy of following reliable sources, where peer-reviewed papers count and self-published theories are effectively relegated to the round file. Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought.
4. There is no consensus to add crank theories about non-relativistic spacetime in this article.
5. If I.P. wants to advertise his self-published theory, he can expand our Non-relativistic spacetime. I advise him to cite reliable sources while at it. If there are none, that article will most certainly be deprecated one day from the project.
6. There is no more enthusiasm for mollycoddling with I.P.'s intransigence and disruptive behavior.

Greg L (talk) 15:32, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

Wow, so now you're going to shout two of us down just so you can avoid working with people that might question the status quo? I certainly didn't ask for a crank article on non-relativistic spacetime to be created. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.32.217.164 (talk) 16:03, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY

Quoting you: I certainly didn't ask for a crank article on non-relativistic spacetime to be created. Indeed, you just want to publish your original research here. Your motives are clear, you obviously are incapable of changing your spots, and you are purely disruptive to the project.

DETAILS

Quoting you: I certainly didn't ask for a crank article on non-relativistic spacetime to be created. Indeed. You just want to hold yourself up as an expert in an alternative self-published crank theory (or as you wrote, you’re one of those “people that might question the status quo”). Rather than publish your original research in the Non-relativistic spacetime article that Stigmatella aurantiaca created for you (apparently in the vain hope you'd trumpet your self-published original research there), you obviously can read the handwriting on that wall and want to memorialize your original research in an article that is high profile and has permanence.

However, this article (hopefully all articles) is built only upon widely accepted, peer-reviewed scientific papers founded upon the work of greats like Lorenz and Einstein and those who follow in their footsteps.

And what do we get out of you? Utter nonsense like I do not find it realistic or acceptable that Lorentz' name keeps bieng mentioned. And this doozy: Nonetheless I have one specific issue, since it is my transformation you are seeking to explain (yes, mine. it should be clear as to who the author [me] is). Lorentz is widely accepted in the field as an expert. You are not.

I note in particular this freudian, where you paint an evocative scene where you and Einstein once shared wine and some violin music together in his study as you two debated God's will vs. quantum mechanics: That is, Albert's (yes, I can call him that. I'm sure my "fans" [weirdos] have seen my high school yearbook quote) theory of relativity does not incorporate a rigorous a priori geometry.

You are purely disruptive to this project. We’ve all wasted our time trying to be politically correct and accommodating to an adult bent on fringe-theory self-promotion, and when you don’t get your way, you suddenly pretend to be a confused 9th-grader wondering why everyone else is so mean to the newcomer who is trying only to be oh-so helpful.

Now, you said on your I.P. talk page you retired. No one here is expected to persistently behave in an insane manner, where we keep doing the same thing over and over (asking you to not be disruptive) and expect a different outcome each time we ask. What you are all about is now abundantly clear and that is fundamentally at odds with Wikipedia’s principles. You best make good on your retirement pledge and move on. Greg L (talk) 16:51, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

After a few weeks of retirement, I guess I had hoped the bullying would have stopped. I was wrong. 47.32.217.164 (talk) 17:01, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

Since you deleted my comment, I will repeat that I'm not the person you have labeled a "crank". I didn't request an article for non-relativistic spacetime, and I think that adding that article was disruptive in itself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.32.217.164 (talk) 17:19, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

@Greg L: No, I would not have permitted original research. It's a real topic about which a lot can be written. Stigmatella aurantiaca (talk) 17:51, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

But nobody asked for it. I asked for more balance in this article, and for the overemphasis on relativity to be moved to relativistic spacetime. It is disruptive to put words in my mouth.

That's not going to happen. Your vision of a "balanced" article was uniformly rejected by what are now the major contributors to this article. Stigmatella aurantiaca (talk) 18:36, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

OK. I understand the issue now. I agree with everything Stigmatella aurantiaca wrote (That's not going to happen. Your vision of a "balanced" article was uniformly rejected by what are now the major contributors to this article.) The consensus is clear and the I.P. editor is overruled. Period. Ample digital space is provided below for whining but that won’t change the outcome of the consensus and will likely only provoke an invitation to the I.P. editor to expedite is re-retirement plans. Greg L (talk) 18:42, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

@Stigmatella aurantiaca: Please boil this all down to its essential elements so I can understand what’s really going on here and so we can arrive at a crystal clear consensus on all germane issues.

1. Is one issue over how the I.P. is trying to expand this article, which is already arguably too big and complex, with concepts of spacetime comprising spatial dimensions other than three, as well as time comprising dimensions greater than one?
2. Do you have a good idea as to the identity of the I.P. editor?
3. If the answer to #2, above, is ‘yes’, who is the I.P. editor and has he or she published work in peer-reviewed journals that the RSs consider to be notable?
4. Is there some other underlying issue that is causing issues with the I.P. editor to flair up I am not aware of?

BTW, everyone. Let's not add posts within others’ posts. It's confusing. Greg L (talk) 18:15, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

The IP user in Fort Worth, Texas has proven that this article is a battlefront of information warfare. This article is viewed about 2400 times a day, has over 700 watchers, of whom more than 100 are reviewing recent changes. Major revisions of high profile article like this can expect pushback. As mentioned above, affine geometry pertains here as one of our presumptions is that parallelism is a useful concept in decoding the universe. (The Fort Worth person likes general covariance where even affine structure is foreign.) We scientists do well to note that Spacetime has not been a particularly useful concept, as relativistic electromagnetism has not supplanted other approaches to electromagnetism. However, the effort has stimulated the development of differential geometry so some progress has been made. Most importantly, Spacetime has provided university physics departments with a course to teach since Ludwik Silberstein provided a textbook in 1914. But ignorance flourishes, and most instructors and WP editors on this article haven’t the foggiest. If a prospective editor doesn’t understand hyperbolic angle, then he or she is not ready for rapidity, and should not contribute to this article. — Rgdboer (talk) 18:16, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

@Rgdboer: I can’t even tell what the flamewar is about. It appears to be an effort by the Fort Worth I.P. to add non-relativistic spacetime stuff to this article. I don’t really care what the I.P. editor “knows”; I for one, don’t know squat about spacetime, other than what you guys put here, and then I try to reword it in the lede so it's accessible to mortals with five minutes to invest.

Do you favor adding non-relativistic spacetime stuff to this article? We need a clear consensus on at least that much.

Insofar as whether the Fort Worth I.P. understands this or that, that doesn’t matter; like everyone else here, the I.P. can cite notable, well-cited, peer-reviewed, papers. And by “notable,” I mean ones that RS's have mentioned or have been cited many times by other papers. Greg L (talk) 18:28, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

This article is hugely biased towards special relativity, and is a mess that completely goes against the MOS. Every time I bring these points up, I'm shouted down. 47.32.217.164 (talk) 18:40, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

Quoting you: Every time I bring these points up, I'm shouted down. That's the definition of “consensus,” which governs everything on this project. You may not like it, but you best learn to accept it. Greg L (talk) 18:46, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

P.S. This is an all-volunteer effort and I have wasted far more time than I should have dealing with your complaining about how you don't like the consensus view, or deny there is a consensus. Anymore disruption out of you will not be well tolerated. Greg L (talk) 18:53, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

So on a page with "hundreds" of watchers, a consensus is 2 people? You and Stigmatella? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.32.217.164 (talk) 18:57, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

I’ll play your game and go with those numbers for a second. Do you have two or three others solidly affirming your views to establish a consensus otherwise? Greg L (talk) 19:00, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

Has there actually been a discussion? Or is it just a race? Quoting you, in this very discussion. We need a clear consensus on at least that much.. Apparently you've already abandoned that thought in your haste to shout me down. 47.32.217.164 (talk) 19:07, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

More than enough discussion has occurred here because of you. You are overruled. The consensus is clear. I didn’t volunteer to deal with editors who refuse to abide by the rules of Wikipedia. I urge you to not edit against consensus or you're I.P. address will likely be blocked. Goodbye. Greg L (talk) 19:12, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

Ok, so now it's emperor Greg who decides? Not consensus? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.32.217.164 (talk) 19:22, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

Definitely consensus. Besides the five contributors (myself, Greg, Purdy, Yohan, Sławomir) on this page, I can easily bring on at least two other Wikipedia editors whom I am friends with, have worked with, and who monitor the Spacetime page (I see their edits), and two outside professional physicists whom I have relied upon to check my work, and who would be willing to disclose their true names so that you can check up on their credentials. One of these outside reviewers is a Norwegian physicist, the other is associated with Fermilab. Stigmatella aurantiaca (talk) 01:04, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

Can they speak for themselves, because all I see is you and Greg, which sounds like the same consensus of 2 among hundreds I indicated above? Appeal to authority: classical logical fallacy. How is an appeal to authority supposed to convince me that the article is balanced? Or are you just doubling down on the shout down approach? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.32.217.164 (talk) 05:31, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

To the I.P. editor. You have already demonstrated the following:

A) That your style of collaborative writing is pure ‘My way or the highway’ with comments like this doozy from your you fingers: “I feel it would be best if you stayed out of this discussion until my concerns have been addressed adequately.” Also,

B) The consensus was your wholesale changes to this article were substandard. I found your work here to be abysmal, but that's just my opinion. And,

C) I see no one else here who is agreeing with your suggestion that this article veer away from the foundation principles of the greats like Einstein and Lorentz and all those that follow in their footsteps to delve into the fringe theory you seem to like; the article needs that sort of additional complexity like a hole in its head.

D) The fact that you believe you are on the same plane as Einstein (∆ edit here), with your own competing theories (That is, Albert's (yes, I can call him that. I'm sure my "fans" [weirdos] have seen my high school yearbook quote) theory of relativity does not incorporate a rigorous a priori geometry), carries no weight on Wikipedia. Why? Because we look towards Reliable Sources to guide us insofar as what is notable and how much weight—if any—to place on competing, fringe theory. We don’t look towards editors who come here saying they are experts on the subject matter and should get their way because he was once on a first-name basis with ol’ Albert.

Your harping on this matter (expand it out of Einstein’s relativistic-based foundation) is beyond tedious and is now bordering on the disruptive. You appear to be the only individual on this page advocating for this wholesale change in the scope of the subject matter. Doing the Wikipedia equivalent of running through a city chamber of commerce meeting with your hair on fire and shouting every day obviously isn’t persuasive yet you keep at it, which I find curious—you seem to relish in making waves for the sake of making waves.

Now, the last time no one here agreed with your reasoning, you went to Noticeboard/Incidents where you donned the persona of a 9th-grader innocently wondering why everyone else was preventing you from even contributing because you, gosh, only wanted to be oh-so helpful. This sort of disruptive behavior (‘I want MY way and ol’ Albert isn’t the only one who is smart‘) is not new to Wikipedia.

If you feel a consensus does not exist, you may start an RFC here if you like. Greg L (talk) 15:43, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

You are mixing apples and oranges again. I am not the same person as the 123 IP. You are also railroading again, by insisting on your way or the highway again (RFC rather than discussion). You really are creative in finding distractions from discussion, I'll give you that.

I also note that one of the people mentioned as agreeing with your "consensus" of 2 out of hundreds has in fact chosen to leave, rather than support your shouting me down. He chose his own words. Like I said, people don't like having words put in their mouth. 47.32.217.164 (talk) 17:22, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

Oh, desist with your worn refrain of being “shouted down”. No one is shouting; it’s just that I can’t see anyone here who’s buying what you’re selling. Now…

An RFC is a form of discussion; that’s why it’s called a “Request for Comment”. It is a process for requesting outside input on a well-focused issue so that circuitous ‘I don’t like it’ can be put to bed. Here’s the link: WP:RFC. If you don’t want to conduct an RFC because you enjoy flogging a dead horse so much, either Stigmatella or I might do one shortly ourselves here. Greg L (talk) 20:47, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

For the time being I stop trying to contribute to this article. Even when being sure that I wont be missed, I do want to give some of my prevalent reasons as personally perceived.

• An IP (47...) shamelessly and continuously posts within other posts, not even caring about delimiting his pronouncements, and not showing any signs to accomodate to the least rigeur. His targets on mentioning "non-relativistic spacetimes" are left absolutely in the vague, because he feels himself shouted down, after not stating his intentions (trolling?).
• An editor (Greg L), well established within this article, but probably not deeply knowledgeable on the topic, continuously devaluates contributions not along his selection of words and content, by simply claiming a proof by time and the content being already "pithy, precise, and razor sharp" (biting "newbies").
• The same editor deleting non-offensive IP-comments from the talk(!)-page (hopefully just by error), associating different IPs (denouncement of sock puppetry?), and constantly prepared to shoo away others, even by a dedicated section on the talk page (granting latitude).
• Rgdboer believes in "rapidity" and other auxilliary constructions or mathematical variants in looking at spacetime being the salvation. Any shift to a more generalized view is rebutted.
• An other IP (123...) is convinced (on what grounds?) that having defined some transformation (which one?) in some 4-space (which one?), and especially, by being him and on colloquial grounds with Albert, would suffice to topple Lorentz' importance.

This got too much for me to carry on. All the best to you all and especially to the article. Purgy (talk) 07:55, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

Reply to Purgy by IP (47...)

Sorry to see you go. Yes, my comments have been vague. There are a couple reasons for that. The first being that I'm not an expert. I don't feel that disqualifies me from being heard and taken seriously, however; I've had plenty of productive experiences when not being bullied. As you point out, I can't seem to get any thoughts out without them being demonized.

I don't think I've spoken about non-relativistic spacetimes per se. You may have me confused with the 123 editor, as others have done. I am more concerned about the lack of focus on the article's topic, spacetime in general. Instead the focus is on relativistic spacetime, and the article comes off as a biased textbook, two things that are anathema to the project's goals. Should you care to hear them, I'd be more than happy to discuss my concerns with you. I've done work on the article hoping to correct this, but it was thrown away, and my concerns along with it. There was never any real discussion, despite the refrain of "follow the rules" comments that are used to shout me down. I believe it's clear that the "rules" and "consensus" are being employed as a weapon to avoid discussion and for harassment.

Lastly, I will say that I'm thoroughly disappointed with what has become of this article. In the name of making the article "simpler", the article has in fact become more mired in incomprehensible disconnected statements, now completely inaccessible to a newbie. It is so incomprehensible that it includes links everywhere which don't even serve the intended function of simplifying, and is in complete opposition to the ideas of the MOS. It's funny how the very people that could help with making the article more accessible are the ones that are being shouted down.

Reply to IP (47...) by Stig

Here is an experiment:

1. Read the summary ^Definitions section
2. Read the level three Definitions subsection
3. Re-read the summary ^Definitions section

Does having a Summary for each major subsection level help in understanding what the subsection is supposed to be about? Stigmatella aurantiaca (talk) 23:22, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

Reply to Stig by IP (47...)

I don't understand how your system is supposed to work at all. It's not intuitive to me. I'm not interested in learning a special method for the sake of one article. My recommendation would be to ask for help from the contributors to the MOS for options on what approaches can be used to solve the problem you are trying to address. I don't even understand what problem that is. 47.32.217.164 (talk) 00:09, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

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The problem is that this is a large article divided into subsections that are themselves rather large. Adding summaries to each major subsection helps the reader focus on the subsection's major points. A person can read through all of the Summaries and get the gist of all the content that I've contributed. Stigmatella aurantiaca (talk) 07:33, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

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Reply to IP (47...) by Stig

Unfortunately, your version of the spacetime article (00:38, 29 May 2017) makes absolutely no sense to anybody except yourself. Stigmatella aurantiaca (talk) 01:49, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

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There you go with more words in my mouth. I thought we were discussing how to improve the article, and I offered what I thought was a reasonable suggestion. You respond with a personal attack. Not only are you trying to tell me what I meant by my own edits, but you are trying to claim to understand how everyone else perceives the issue, without having consulted them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.32.217.164 (talk) 03:24, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

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He's not putting words in your mouth. I clearly understood the point of his post to be that your contributions don’t make sense to anyone.

It doesn’t matter much if you feel that what Stigmatella wrote is bad ‘cess and that you are terribly fond of your verbiage if no one else here feels that way. You just don’t seem to be getting the concept here; consensus rules. You deny there is a consensus. Well, fine; what’s good for the goose is good for the gander because there sure as heck isn’t a consensus to let you do what you did earlier to this article and replace Stigmatella’s well-focused text with your unfocused ramblings. Do you see anyone else buying what you’re selling? I don’t.

Maybe a way you can contribute would be to make a sandbox and go write something that others support. If there's a consensus to add it (or swap it) to the article, we’ll do so.

It would also help if you started signing your posts, registered, stopped adding unsigned comments right in the middle of others’ posts (making more work for me and others as we try to move posts around into a coherent, decipherable order), stopped tenaciously flogging a dead horse in hopes of wearing down other editors or drive them away from the project (that's disruptive), and finally started performing some of the little courtesies expected of contributors, like working collaboratively with others instead of telling people to stay out of discussions until you first get your way. Greg L (talk) 05:54, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

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Another personal attack. Not going to bother to respond. 47.32.217.164 (talk) 11:32, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

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I was attacking your contributions, not you personally. There is a difference.

What is your response to Slawomir's comments? Stigmatella aurantiaca (talk) 07:16, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

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I don't see the need for attacking at all, whether it's my edits or me personally. I take them both to be harassment. I do feel there are still a number of issues with the article, as I've pointed out a number of times. Want me to make a list? I'm not interested in a sandbox. I don't typically write extensive text. That's neither my interest, nor typical for non-experts. 47.32.217.164 (talk) 11:17, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

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Having a sandbox would be the easiest way to keep your thoughts and proposals organized. To do so, you would need to create a login. There are various other benefits to having a login. For example, on various projects, you need a login before you have voting rights. For instance, I've participated in the nomination, editing, and bringing to featured picture status figures such as this wonderful set of images by Dr. Fabien Baron of the University of Michigan. (I was responsible for adding the phase legends at the lower left.) Stigmatella aurantiaca (talk) 11:47, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

Question: Why are my edits harassment, while your disruptive edits are not? Stigmatella aurantiaca (talk) 11:57, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

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I've already addressed the sandbox and account questions. I'm not going to continue discussing them here. It's possible I'd discuss further on my talk page, if that interests you. Your question is a loaded question, which I'm going to decline to answer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.32.217.164 (talk) 12:15, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

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As I've stated before, that is not your talk page, but a talk page associated with the IP address to which you temporarily have possession. Your history goes back only a limited time. Prior to your current IP, you were 75.139.254.117 (talk). Under that IP, you also display a rather contentious editing history going no further back than 21 September 2016. Yet you have stated that you have been on Wikipedia for years. What I can see does not add up to an appealing picture of collaborative editing in the best tradition of Wikipedia. Who were you before 75.139.254.117 (talk)? Stigmatella aurantiaca (talk) 13:41, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

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Ok, you've declined my invitation for discussion. Fine. Then personal attacks. In the meantime, the article hasn't gotten any better. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.32.217.164 (talk) 13:47, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

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Oh, desist with your wikilawyering about “personal attacks” and “harassment.” Your behavior here on Wikipedia is utterly abysmal and is fair game because you are being disruptive. Now…

You’ve repeatedly argued that this article is too relativity- and Loretz-centered and want to make it more generic to encompass spatial dimensions other than three, and temporal dimensions other than one. I find that suggestion to be garbage and no one else around here thinks it’s a good idea. Your opinions are yours only; nothing else.

Your behavior, which includes telling others to stay out of discussions until your concerns have been first addressed to your satisfaction, betrays a galactic misunderstanding of how things work around here. You obviously believe that you are permitted to keep harping on this until you get your way, and that Wikipedia's rules require others, who are volunteers, to indefinitely indulge your desire to mix it up (in the name of “discussion”) until either the heat death of the universe, or until everyone here fatigues and stops pushing back at your lousy idea, as if the latter somehow means “acquiescence” to you.

Things just don’t work that way on Wikipedia. By being as tenacious as a herpes infection, you obviously think you can hold everyone hostage here to your agenda; you are wrong. Moreover, your persistence—if you don’t come to your senses and behave in accordance to the rules of conduct in a collaborative writing environment—seems to have gone well over the line of violating WP:LISTEN. Continuing to persist in this manner may result in your I.P. blocked. Greg L (talk) 19:07, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

More personal attacks and threats. Bullying. Do I think it's reasonable to ask for bullies to go away so that constructive concerns are heard? Yeah, I do.

Now you’re just trying to be annoying on purpose. Please go away. You're concerns have been raised fifty times now. No one agrees with you. Greg L (talk) 23:18, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

My concerns have been raised, but not addressed. Unless you're volunteering to address them, I'll think I'll stick around a while longer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.32.217.164 (talk) 23:31, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

You mean, you didn’t get your way so you’ll continue to harangue us here? Greg L (talk) 23:35, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

WordsInMouth=WordsInMouth+1 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.32.217.164 (talk) 23:44, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

It is clear, I.P. 47.32.217.164, that your only purpose on this talk page is to ignore rules of conduct and badger others unless you get your way. Your behavior here is nothing but disruptive. There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents about your tendentious behavior. Greg L (talk) 23:57, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

Update: The above-mentioned ANI is now resolved. For the record, here is a perma-link to the ANI regarding I.P. 47.32.217.164. Greg L (talk) 17:21, 20 June 2017 (UTC)